Riots in London

[Antifa94]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2010/nov/10/demo-2010-student-protests-live
They took over the fucking Tory HQ. :thumbup:

[scarletghoul]

cool

[Sasha]

lets hope they burn it to the ground

[Le Corsaire Rouge]

It's pretty awesome, a lot of sympathy from my colleagues, surprisingly.

[Rakhmetov]

More of this shit everywhere on earth please! :thumbup:

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/11/10/uk.protest/index.html?hpt=T1

[Widerstand]

Fuck yeah! :)

[Bright Banana Beard]

All UKer should help it causes and turn it into radical movement.

[red flag over teeside]

While it's always great when there are huge demos I beleive there are something like 50,000 on the demo the trick is to get students and workers out on strike together. The danger is that the students get isolated from workers and will be able to be defeated by the capitalist state. Occupying the Tory HQ is great for a short while but where next for the struggle?

[ed miliband]

Fuck, I left just before they started protesting on the roof.

[Antifa94]

LOOK AT THIS
http://www.flickr.com/photos/asifkhan/5163734529/
I AM SO HAPPYYYY

[Antifa94]

Go to the Guardian website right now, they have an amazing picture that i can't seem to post

[ed miliband]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/11/10/1289406150485/Student-protests-A-demons-006.jpg

[IndependentCitizen]

I'm hoping this will be the first demo of many, my college's NUS is trying to work with other sussex NUS' to organise a Sussex student protest here in Brighton.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Balls, there was a bus down to London for this Demo and I had to miss it because my gf had some shitty Class Rep meeting. :crying:

Still, nice to see people fucking shit up.

[IndependentCitizen]

Balls, there was a bus down to London for this Demo and I had to miss it because my gf had some shitty Class Rep meeting. :crying:

Still, nice to see people fucking shit up.

That's not as bad as spending what was meant to be your train fare to London, on cigarettes.


Damn things...

[TheGeekySocialist]

sucks man, I couldnt go cause I had a stomach upset, feeling better now, but its too late :(

good on them though, burn the Tories to the ground! :thumbup:

[Ele'ill]

Any riot por... videos detailing the events..

[¿Que?]

A day with riots is a good day :)

[ed miliband]

Any riot por... videos detailing the events..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8123194/Student-tuition-fee-protest-turns-violent-as-Tory-headquarters-evacuated.html

LOL, the guy at the end is the most unlikely protester ever:

ujZsFOGT-Ko (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujZsFOGT-Ko)

!!!!!!!!!!!!

[learningaboutheleft123]

they shouldn't have increased the tuition fees in the first place, why should we have to pay higher fees ? and they said it was going to be a 'peaceful protest' im sorry but this is the only way the govt. are going to listen im afraid.

[Ele'ill]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8123194/Student-tuition-fee-protest-turns-violent-as-Tory-headquarters-evacuated.html

LOL, the guy at the end is the most unlikely protester ever:

ujZsFOGT-Ko (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujZsFOGT-Ko)

!!!!!!!!!!!!


The youtube video took me to a christmas song...... of sorts

[ed miliband]

Yeah... the bro at the end of that video on the Telegraph website is also the bro singing the Christmas song.

[cb9's_unity]

I'm watching Fox now and it's amazing how they fit in their little anti-rioter jabs. "Innocent people, who having nothing to do with the rioters issues with the government, are working in those office buildings", "the cuts won't even take place until 2012".

[Ele'ill]

I like this thread, I wish there were significant student actions over here

[Rainsborough]

And (hopefully) so it begins. :thumbup:

[REDSOX]

Good for them. Hope its the start of many demos violent or otherwise against everything the system throws at us

[Rakhmetov]

Let's hope this does not lead to a cheap catharsis on the part of the students/workers. I wager this is what the government is counting on--- that the protestors will vent their spleen then go home and endure the unendurable. :confused:

[Rusty Shackleford]

Please oh please can some British comrades come to California and radicalize our students.

Fees are jumping by 15.5 Percent!

[ed miliband]

What is completely being overplayed is the level of mindless violence and people out to have a good laugh. Later on it may have became like that but for the most part and at the beginning the protest was led by committed revolutionaries. Anyone else there? Don't know how much I should post about it this being watched by the police and all.

Yeah me, and I agree with what you've said.

[IndependentCitizen]

Please oh please can some British comrades come to California and radicalize our students.

Fees are jumping by 15.5 Percent!
Pay for me and my BMX to get over there, and I'll make them as radical as you like.

[ed miliband]

Interesting:

http://www.bettingpro.com/category/Political-Betting/Millbank-Tower-Student-Riot--Will-the-Coalition-do-a-U-turn-2010111000153/

[~Spectre]

Ready for round 2.

[KurtFF8]

It will be interesting to see what comes of this indeed. The French episode that happened recently was a much larger scale and totally failed, so needless to say I'm not too optimistic

[Buitraker]

Ready for round 2.

Go go go

[Sasha]

It will be interesting to see what comes of this indeed. The French episode that happened recently was a much larger scale and totally failed, so needless to say I'm not too optimistic
yes, it failed in its reformist direct aims. But the mere fact that a ton of young people where willing to hit the street, quite millitant, not really for the stated goal (pensionplans) but out of a widlly shared under peers feeling of general discontent and anger. It does give me hope. And to see today footage out of "fucking nothing ever hapens overhere" england that i would earlyer expect from greece. that does give me hope. and how that greece is still simmering. that does give me hope. And how to squat scene in the netherlands is dominating the media again. that does give me hope.

anyone see lastnight the special "insurectionary youth" night at ARTE? it was about the french riots, greece, china and kopenhagen. i do believe we are on the brink of quite some intens social upheaval we havent seen since the 80's, the question will be if we can pull it political.

[ed miliband]

Squatting is making the news quite a lot on the UK too.

[Sasha]

seen this?


Jonathan Haynes picking up from Adam here. As protesters are released from cordons of police outside Millbank Tower, some have been speaking out. Leila Khaled, 22, a student at Essex University described the police tactics as kettling - the tactic of penning in protesters widely criticised after its use at the G20 protests in London last year. either this girl has the coolest leftist parents ever or this journalist just got trolled. :lol:

[Sasha]

more footage; http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/video/2010/nov/10/student-protest-london-millbank

[brigadista]

respect to the youth dem!!!!!!

[Rusty Shackleford]

more footage; http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/video/2010/nov/10/student-protest-london-millbank
oh shit, a bleedin' bobby.

[learningaboutheleft123]

daves going to have a sight when he comes home. haha.

[Antifa94]

This is so beautiful. Let's hope more riots occur
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/gallery/2010/nov/10/students-protest-london-spending-cuts?picture=368554088#/?picture=368559753&index=10

[IndependentCitizen]

This is so beautiful. Let's hope more riots occur
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/gallery/2010/nov/10/students-protest-london-spending-cuts?picture=368554088#/?picture=368559753&index=10

Hmm, I'm not too keen on the 'let's hope for riots'.

More mass demonstrations, yes. But more riots? The media would tear us a new one if this was a common thing, and then there'd be heavier policing and this really could put people off joining the socialists' side :(

[BeerShaman]

Love it!:D
I wish for more, everywhere!

[pastradamus]

I found this rioting and protesting amazing. Not for the riots per-se but for the reports on Sky news when compared to the BBC's Coverage.

Sky's reports were extremely right-wing and against all the protesters calling them such names as "thugs" "Vandals" etc...whilst BBC described the protesters as outraged and disgruntled students.

[I.O.T.M]

I would've been going to this today if I hadn't missed the coach. I wish I was there now.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I was there.

A girl on my coach confirmed that from around 4pm the police started kettling people outside Millbank, think this went on til about 5pm.

I don't know about whoever said the actual demonstration was led my committed revolutionaries. Though there were certainly revolutionaries present, it was firmly led by the reformist NUS, who I was not impressed with.

I won't say too much about what happened afterwards for obvious reasons, but certainly shit got fucked up, and it's a disgrace that the media are reporting it as a 'tiny minority', when in fact a sizeable number of people, probably in the thousands, took part in the riots.

This has to be the beginning though, and more importantly, it has to be exported to all parts of the UK. Each university has to set up some sort of anti-cuts movement that will harass, harangue and protest on a regular basis and stay active, so hopefully as to raise awareness and thus consciousness on the part of students, and then workers...

Unite, workers!

[Sasha]

I found this rioting and protesting amazing. Not for the riots per-se but for the reports on Sky news when compared to the BBC's Coverage.

Sky's reports were extremely right-wing and against all the protesters calling them such names as "thugs" "Vandals" etc...whilst BBC described the protesters as outraged and disgruntled students.


anyone seen this?

5.38pm:
My colleague Ben Quinn has been following the rolling news coverage this afternoon, and writes:

Sky News ran into difficulty about 5 minutes ago when they attempted to go live to one of their reporters on the ground. She appeared to lose her temper as students standing around her began to pitch in with comments like 'ladies and gentlemen the insurrection has started'.
"They just want to shout people down," said, turning to them and telling them (as well as the studio) that the vast majority of people at the protest didn't support what has happened.
Sky cut the link, with an anchor saying, not entirely convincingly : "I'm not sure what was happening there."


:lol:

[People's War]

Hell yeah! Up the students! Let's torch down every damn Tory club in the country!

I can't describe how much I wish I'd gone to the protest now, and how happy this makes me.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

anyone seen this?


:lol:

:lol::lol::lol:

Almost EVERYONE to a man who was at the original demo supported the trashing of Millbank.

[I.O.T.M]

I know someone who's a Labour Youth Activist and he's going on about how the riots were caused by "Apolotical twats". :laugh:

[human strike]

I was there, it was a fucking blast! :lol:

The most striking thing about it for me was how the vast majority of those involved at Millbank were ordinary students. The NUS president said the demo was "hijacked". I agree, it was hijacked by the students! Sure there were a few people who turned up determined to make something happen, but they were very few, I'd say a few dozen at most. It was the hundreds, more like thousands, of ordinary students who joined in that made it really happen. It was something very spontaneous. The police definitely didn't see it coming, it was hard to believe it was Tory HQ it was so poorly protected, and few others expected this.

[Sasha]

I was there, it was a fucking blast! http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/laugh.gif

The most striking thing about it for me was how the vast majority of those involved at Millbank were ordinary students. The NUS president said the demo was "hijacked". I agree, it was hijacked by the students! Sure there were a few people who turned up determined to make something happen, but they were very few, I'd say a few dozen at most. It was the hundreds, more like thousands, of ordinary students who joined in that made it really happen. It was something very spontaneous. The police definitely didn't see it coming, it was hard to believe it was Tory HQ it was so poorly protected, and few others expected this.

like 14 years ago i had the same experience, i was in highschool and the then goverment wanted to change something big and an national student strike was called and an manifestation in The Hague.
the manifestation was held on an big field, tens of thousands atended and it was freezing cold, boring as fuck, and then the secratery of education came on stage to tell us that she apriciated the protest but that we could suck it. She got egged of course and a big group decided this wasnt worth of time and walked into town. like 2000 kids could just split of the demo and walk in to town straight to parliment.
before parlement square 5 female cops in skirts where with an 1 meter high fence closing of the entrance,
ofcourse this was no match for a few thousand angry youth so everybode stormed in and it kicked of big time.
the most astonishing thing was that it where almost all completly unpoliticised kids, hanging in designer clothes from the lampposts, trowing in the windows of parlement with their sode cans, sneaking of to the mcdonalds only to return to upturn a expensive car and set it on fire.
ofcourse i was nicked, while it was actualy me and the other actvists protecting the windows of the inocent neighbours, because aperently saying "dont trow in this window, take that one" is incitement :lol:

[I.O.T.M]

Bollocks, they weren't. It was revolutionaries at the front who made a concerted effort to make a stand.
The guy is a bit of an idiot, he tried telling me that being a commie will result in me being lonely and unhappy.

I seem to be the only person I know that supports the rioters.

[~Spectre]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/11/10/1289409563506/A-student-protester-faces-030.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/11/10/1289409560985/A-girl-warms-herself-by-a-028.jpg




We run things now.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/11/10/1289404596199/Student-protesters-wave-f-026.jpg

[Sasha]

We run things now.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/11/10/1289404596199/Student-protesters-wave-f-026.jpg

that kid on the left surely must be rick from the young ones

[Quail]

Fuck, I left just before they started protesting on the roof.
Yeah me too. The coaches my union booked left too fucking early.

I'm very happy to see how militant loads of students were. It wasn't just the black bloc that were smashing things up. I've heard there were 32 arrests though.

[Magón]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/11/10/1289409560985/A-girl-warms-herself-by-a-028.jpg

Was it chilly there in England? (Hence why it looks like she's warming her hand. :D)

[TheGeekySocialist]

Was it chilly there in England? (Hence why it looks like she's warming her hand. :D)

it's England, its always chilly and overcast! lol, seriously, if nothing else this was a good protest as its about fucking time we brits stopped just taking shit from the government and capitalists

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Can't say much for London, but it has been kinda cold this week.

Some cool pics btw

[freepalestine]

....
I'm very happy to see how militant loads of students were. It wasn't just the black bloc that were smashing things up. I've heard there were 32 arrests though.looking at the faces on the news ,i reckon that there maybe more

[Magón]

I just heard some guy on my Uni Campus mention the riots. Suffice to say, I don't know his position on it. He just said, "Did you hear about the riots against the UK's Conservatives?"

[Quail]

Ah feck you missed it. It was quite an experience.
Yeah, we were pretty pissed off, but we watched some of the coverage at a service station and texted around for updates. It was fucking awesome how when I was there the police were surrounded by hundreds of angry protesters and looking scared shitless.

[human strike]

They didn't like it much when it started raining fire extinguishers either. :laugh:

[Quail]

I wasn't a massive fan of throwing fire extinguishers off the roof to be honest. If badly aimed, it could easily have killed one of the demonstrators.

[Magón]

I wasn't a massive fan of throwing fire extinguishers off the roof to be honest. If badly aimed, it could easily have killed one of the demonstrators.

Or one of the little Piggies for BACON!!!!! :thumbup:

[Leonid Brozhnev]

I've been threatened with a fire extinguisher before, they're pretty formidable weapons.:lol:

[Fabrizio]

I walked past loads of these protestors during my lunch-hour, if I'd known it was gonna get that fun I'd have stuck around.

The Chinese guy in the footage is a legend, screaming at the camera as they break in.:laugh: Wouldn't like to be in his shoes now though. :(

[Sam_b]

Man, this sucks. The Glasgow bus (shout outs!) left at 12:15am this morning and I was stuck in work. Gutted that I missed out on this, but glad of its success. This point should be emphasised: success. All day i've been battling accusations flying from several different student leaders (most of them self-appointed, I should add) about either the 'disgraceful behaviour' of a 'minority', or an 'SWP hijack'. Shameful.

I don't need to mention much on our organisation as clearly thinking we can incite a riot or lead a 30,000 strong demo of students, lecturers and university staff into a building is ludicrous. However, this 'disgraceful behaviour' is a show of how angry not just students but an entire cross-section of the class are with this illigitimate Tory government of rich kids - who went to university for free - and the hypocrisy of this ruling class government of the rich by the rich. A few weeks ago: the biggest Trade Union march against cuts for years in Edinburgh. Last weekend: nationwide demos outside Vodaphone about the tax bills. Unions voting for more and more strike action. University campuses in sporadic demos and action against cuts. An underground strike that was supported just as much by many of the public as it was the strikers themselves.

Comrades, the touchpaper has been ignited. This is a step in the direction of weekly strikes and protests that can herald the end of the Tories and rekindle working class activism and uprising. This shook the Government, no doubt about it. Our job now is to get back into our communities, our unions, our workplaces and campuses and agitate for more of the same.

[human strike]

With you on that, comrade!


I wasn't a massive fan of throwing fire extinguishers off the roof to be honest. If badly aimed, it could easily have killed one of the demonstrators.

I know, you're right.

[Lyev]

Fuck, I left just before they started protesting on the roof.Same here. :crying: I struggle arguing against legalist, liberal bourgeois rationale that we should maintain "peaceful protest", but it's only a bloody building. It was hardly a riot though. Just some people smashing the windows of the tory HQ, at least that was what I saw when I was there.

EDIT: are SWPers being accused for leading all this? Haha, when I was marching past with all the SP comrades they were saying in a hushed tone "nope, probably just best if we ignore it and move on"; this is with a massive crowd, whilst the people were smashing windows and letting off fireworks and whatnot. And also, the estimate I heard for attendance was ~50,000.

[Sam_b]

Wish it was a riot.

Can't wait for a future government plan to introduce the b*****d p**l t*x

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

This was inspirational. It gives great hope to a movement of resistance to these cuts.

The difficulty will lie in the fact that the action has been condemned from every angle, namely the NUS. I am fearful that students will not understand the importance of this event.

[Amphictyonis]

yes, it failed in its reformist direct aims.

Bingo. As you said our goal isn't to pressure capitalists to reform capitalism by being nice to us. Our goal is to snap workers out of passivity and this will happen as capitalism declines... capitalists will attempt squeeze every last penny out of the working class...like an empty tube of tooth paste.

As material conditions worsen under capitalism class consciousness will make gains through the struggle to fight worsening material conditions.

[El Rojo]

ok, a quick report.

arrived at approx 12:30 after getting up at 4am. due to retarded police traffic controls my group then had to travel about a kilometer to reach the demo. me and my friend decided we couldn't wait for the group and double-timed to the start point. when we got there the demo was already underway, marching down whitehall (street full of govt ministeries)

v low police presence, they had set out barricades confining us to one half of the street. individuals quickly moved a lot of these faster than the resigned stewards could replace them. people began to move onto both sides of the roads. (there was no traffic, why the barricades?) went past no. 10, and then, in a way to me that seemed totally spontanous, approx 400 people diverted down king charles street. i followed this group, who were composed of regular students, i saw no activist types there, who ran down the street shouting and chanting, happy to have broken out of the march. we then circled round to great george street and converged on traf. square from a separate direction from the main march. this threw the police into some confusion, i believe.

on passing traf. sqaure, several masked up people took down the infamous fencing that had closed off parliament square to democracy village, later i saw that the group had re-occupied the square.

another group then split off the route of the march and headed down victoria street, towards the dept. science and tech, which some thought to be the dept of education, which was barely guarded. consisting of over 100 angry students and a sound system, most students initially stood outside chanting, but a group of masked up individuals attempted to push into the building, past a thin line of police. unfortunatey, the line held, so the students contented themselves with a rave inside the open air atrium. After 10 minutes (if not longer, they were v slow) some vans of riot police arrived, and they cleared out the building of those attempting to enter. I saw no arrests during this attempt to force the building.

After this, people were milling around between the technology dept and traf square, so i ate lunch sitting on the anti car bomb wall infront of parliament, and act that under usual circumstances probably would have got me shot!

I then started hearing rumours that the Tory Party HQ had been occupied, so i headed over to the building, in the general direction of the march also.

There were about 5000 people (v approx!) around the building. when i arrived the action was already underway, a window smashed, bonfires burning. I didn't go inside, i wrongly assumed that the mother of all police convoys was already on route to brutalise everyone with 50m of the building. Ooops. So while I was preparing the the CS gas attack that never came, more windows were being destroyed and the first person appeared on the roof with a black / red flag. The mother of all cheers went up, and the vast majority of those assembled were (i assume) supportive of the action. I spent the next hour talking to all the students I met about the need for direct action, smoking other people's cigareets and laughing to the sky at the awesomeness of the situation. bystanders were startled.
soon others appeared on the roof, with various banners were waved, mainly anarchist, but also one of the SWP (never let it be said that all we do is sell papers!). The majority of the students there were supportive of the action, and i think (based more on street rumour) that it was mainly students, lead by a group of dedicated activists, that initially took the building.

At some point, someone dropped a fire extinguisher off the roof, tens of stories up, onto the space where the protesters were. This was unforgivable. I better have been an accident, but even then. This in military terms would be an ND, or accidental firing of weapon. This is one of the most serious crimes under military law and i think we should treat this the same way. The greek protests were hugely dammaged when the three bankers burned to death, whatever the cause, and already i have talked to people who are against the whole action due to this one incident. We were about .5 meters away from a DEATH on the first major student demo. Imagine please what would have hapenned of that thing had hit someone.

Aside from this, an excellent demo overall. The taking of the Tory HQ wasnt the only direct action, and from what i saw it wasnt only radicals doing this kind of thing. Roll on the next one i saw. Lib Dem building next?

[bricolage]

Aaron Porter has blamed it on 'some anarchist group'.

[Widerstand]

At some point, someone dropped a fire extinguisher off the roof, tens of stories up, onto the space where the protesters were. This was unforgivable. I better have been an accident, but even then. This in military terms would be an ND, or accidental firing of weapon. This is one of the most serious crimes under military law and i think we should treat this the same way. The greek protests were hugely dammaged when the three bankers burned to death, whatever the cause, and already i have talked to people who are against the whole action due to this one incident. We were about .5 meters away from a DEATH on the first major student demo. Imagine please what would have hapenned of that thing had hit someone.

Aside from this, an excellent demo overall. The taking of the Tory HQ wasnt the only direct action, and from what i saw it wasnt only radicals doing this kind of thing. Roll on the next one i saw. Lib Dem building next?

Fucking hell. Reminds me of the idiots we have here that consequently fail to NOT aim fireworks at their own people.

[Sam_b]

The difficulty will lie in the fact that the action has been condemned from every angle, namely the NUS

No it hasn't. It has been condemned by the NUS bureaucracy. There's a difference.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

No it hasn't. It has been condemned by the NUS bureaucracy. There's a difference.
Fair point, but I am fearful that the media coverage and the condemnation of the NUS leaders will affect the coming action.

I hold a bit of faith in the sense that most of the comrades I saw there were ordinary students and their actions were of genuine discontent, I just hope that this kind of response continues, regardless of what reactionaries say. The worry is that the action may lose its militant character thanks to the media response and the response of NUS leaders (including NUS reps at many institutions).

I've already been home and spoken to students that have brought into the whole notion that this action was just a result of mindless thugs; it puts a cynical edge on things.

[bricolage]

No it hasn't. It has been condemned by the NUS bureaucracy. There's a difference.
Not really.
The NUS is not the sum of its constituent parts, it is a bureaucratic structure alien to anyone but its... well, bureaucrats.
It can't be 'reclaimed'. More to the point there would be no point in doing this, in the 70s' Jack Straw/CPGB would pass motion upon motion in the NUS calling for the imposition of communism or such like as soon as possible, it amounted to nothing and never will do.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

I've already been home and spoken to students that have brought into the whole notion that this action was just a result of mindless thugs; it puts a cynical edge on things.

I've been hearing this too 'Uh, they're just a bunch of chavs turning up to cause trouble'... no, they're not, why is so hard to understand that students are genuinely pissed off with the thought of being encumbered with even more debt?

[Rakhmetov]

You folks overlook how riots were used in the French Revolution!!!!! It was a tactic used to get people together and then from there they evolved into an organized citizens militia!!! More riots not less!!!!

[Widerstand]

It is sad to hear that this stupid fetishism for non-violence exists elsewhere as well. People should learn from the CASTOR protests that those preaching pacifism to the crowd are the ones police beats up first.

[Sam_b]

The NUS is not the sum of its constituent parts, it is a bureaucratic structure alien to anyone but its... well, bureaucrats.
It can't be 'reclaimed'. More to the point there would be no point in doing this, in the 70s' Jack Straw/CPGB would pass motion upon motion in the NUS calling for the imposition of communism or such like as soon as possible, it amounted to nothing and never will do.

I've not argued about NUS reclamation in the slightest here, so God knows why you've jumped on this. Like it or not there are still numerous NUS rank-and-file, many who played decisive parts today. I'd like to hear how many NUS council members you've spoken to in the past few hours that you can claim that this has somehow been universally condemned by the NUS: because i've spoken to quite a few and what i'm hearing must vastly differ from you.


Fair point, but I am fearful that the media coverage and the condemnation of the NUS leaders will affect the coming action.

Did the Poll Tax riots have a negative affect in the action against the Tories? What about G20 earlier this year?

[El Rojo]

Aaron Porter has blamed it on 'some anarchist group'.


Aaron Porter is a slimey liberal shit, and will damage the UK student movement more than a company of pigs. Whilst constantly moaning for peaceful protest, he then does the odd fight-y speaches about the need for a real fightback. grade-a double speak, which is why sooner or later he will get a job with the labour party

[Pawn Power]

Hell yeah! Up the students! Let's torch down every damn Tory club in the country!

I can't describe how much I wish I'd gone to the protest now, and how happy this makes me.

Watch yourself there.

[Pawn Power]

Congrats to my fellow students and workers over the pond. Look like a good turnout for an important protest. There must have been some serious organizing to bring something like this together and we should respect those organizers.

While the riot porn in fun to watch (and participate in for some, though it is important to remember that some folks get rightfully nervous and scared in such situations)- riots don't build a movement. Building takeovers and blockades are a tactic which can be used effectively but they have to be tied to organizing, building a base, and educating. It is easy to get pissed off at austerity measures and break shit - the hard work of building a movement comes next.

Though I shouldn't really talk, it looks like the student movement has much more power in england right now than the US. :blushing: good luck and keep safe!

[Pretty Flaco]

now if only we could get a spark flying to catch a fire over here across the pond...

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://london.indymedia.org/articles/5984

Education Camp occupies Parliament Square and opens free university. If you're tired of shouting slogans and want to be part of the alternatives, come to Parliament Square.
As the dust settles on the chaos across central London, a new university has emerged: a free university in Parliament Square. The space was peacefully occupied by an autonomous group of students called Education Camp. Their intention is to hold the space for a period of time to facilitate free public lectures and open discussion about proactive alternatives for higher education. New students and professors are welcome.
Currently there is free movement of students on and off the campus. Already some professors are planning lectures for tomorrow. Help is needed tonight to hold the space through peaceful means. The university has asked people donate warm blankets and hot food to keep the resistance going, and for more students to participate in peacefully holding this space.
Decisions are being made by consensus and the group is non-hierarchical. The group is respectful of the space, intends to maintain it but also use it for a socially valuable activity - free higher education.

[Peace on Earth]

Send some of the anger over to the 'States. We need it.

Edit: I'm hoping this type of anger, used correctly, continues. Mass waves of discontent would be much more powerful is combined from all corners of Europe. Hopefully this paves the way for future demostrations, protests, riots, however you choose to label them. It gets on my nerves when people, the media mostly, chastises the angry citizens for being "just a bunch of thugs." As if our demands should be submitted on parchment with an olive branch in hand. You don't stroke the hand that fucks you.

[Pretty Flaco]

http://london.indymedia.org/articles/5984

That's really interesting. How successful/large is it so far?

[pastradamus]

No it hasn't. It has been condemned by the NUS bureaucracy. There's a difference.

Yeah well unfortunately thats all we hear in the reports.

[pastradamus]

Aaron Porter is a slimey liberal shit, and will damage the UK student movement more than a company of pigs. Whilst constantly moaning for peaceful protest, he then does the odd fight-y speaches about the need for a real fightback. grade-a double speak, which is why sooner or later he will get a job with the labour party

Yes, WIN!

[The Grey Blur]

http://london.indymedia.org/articles/5984
boke

couple of points real quick

1) fuck hippy shit - this includes 'alternative universities' etc.
2) brilliant to see 50,000 people marching against the increase in fees.
3) wouldn't get carried away and generalise from the occupation of tory hq - the vast majority of the student population are still very much in a reformist mindset...that said we should all reject totally the nus bureaucracy and their careerist condemnation of the action.
4) just like the labour party, you won't ever build anything outside the NUS. so good luck to the anarchists and the trotskyist sects etc. work within labour and the nus or die an ignoble activist death.
5) the fire extinguisher stunt was fucking stupid.
6) good night et bonne chance.

[Rusty Shackleford]

boke

couple of points real quick

1) fuck hippy shit - this includes 'alternative universities' etc.
2) brilliant to see 50,000 people marching against the increase in fees.
3) wouldn't get carried away and generalise from the occupation of tory hq - the vast majority of the student population are still very much in a reformist mindset...that said we should all reject totally the nus bureaucracy and their careerist condemnation of the action.
4) just like the labour party, you won't ever build anything outside the NUS. so good luck to the anarchists and the trotskyist sects etc. work within labour and the nus or die an ignoble activist death.
5) the fire extinguisher stunt was fucking stupid.
6) good night et bonne chance.


i do agree, fuck hippie shit. i was posting it because it was interesting though. and it was very relevant to the topic. :rolleyes:

[bricolage]

I've not argued about NUS reclamation in the slightest here, so God knows why you've jumped on this.
Because I've spent long enough in the mess of student politics to know where the SWP stand on this.
"Another Union is Possible" ay?

Like it or not there are still numerous NUS rank-and-file, many who played decisive parts today. I'd like to hear how many NUS council members you've spoken to in the past few hours that you can claim that this has somehow been universally condemned by the NUS: because i've spoken to quite a few and what i'm hearing must vastly differ from you.
Oh ok I see what you are saying now, I misunderstood at first (although I would say they are members of the bureaucracy too so it would make both our statements wrong!) Well that may be the case (but I think it is probably the case far more have condemned it than supported it), I don't really think those council members have much power to do anything though nor do I think, as I said, that it makes much difference. The NUS is not a vehicle that can be utilised for revolutionary activity.

Did the Poll Tax riots have a negative affect in the action against the Tories? What about G20 earlier this year?I don't know much about the Poll Tax riots but I won't comment but in all fairness the G20 protests didn't really affect anything either way. I think this has more of a chance to move into something more if it becomes generalised across the country, ie; strikes, occupations, linking of student 'movement' with education(and other)workers, expansion of struggles across society and the linking up of them etc etc cliche cliche. If not it will probaby become like the G20 and every other spectacular riot, a few newspaper headlines, some cool youtube videos and a bunch of faded memories.

[Delenda Carthago]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/11/10/1289409560985/A-girl-warms-herself-by-a-028.jpg

:wub: :wub:

[Delenda Carthago]

If any UK student wants to talk on a greek revolutionary radio station about the situation over there,pm me!

[Kiev Communard]

Let's hope that movement won't be something one-time, and the British students will continue protesting, and protesting radically against the Coalition government and their insane cuts!

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Let's hope that movement won't be something one-time, and the British students will continue protesting, and protesting radically against the Coalition government and their insane cuts!

Bigger and better, after seeing this I hope students will be more encouraged to catch any buses that've been organised and be more inclined to riot. :lol:

Caught a glimpse of the TV this morning to find some gimp journalist talking about how this protest was 'Scraped together by extreme socialist workers'. Didn't catch his name unfortunately, but he was on Lorraine. She was dumbly nodding in a agreement as usual and exclaimed 'How many times do you go to a protest with spraypaint and wearing a balaclava?'... all the fucking time of course, Lorraine. When was the last time you had to fight for your future and the future of others? I would take a balaclava/bandana to on the premise that it could get rough and I'd like to join in. It's quite easy to condemn these protests when you have a well paying job already, but of course the media simply thinks student should just bend over and prepare ourselves for the Camoron ass rapeage like the rest of the country.

I heard about something somebody had written yesterday, I went along the lines of 'Everybody has been hit by the financial crisis except students. It's time for them to be hit too!'... are people really this fucking ridiculous? :glare:

[Patchd]

"Harry Roberts is our mate is our mate is our mate ... "

[I.O.T.M]

"Harry Roberts is our mate is our mate is our mate ... "
Hopefully there'll be a nice sing along of that at the next march. :lol:

[bailey_187]

fuck, im so pissed i missed this but i went away from uni for a few days and had already booked my coach ticket. im really happy about how this turned out, i was expecting just a march, everyone shouts "tory scum", waves their signs, then goes home and feels good (basically what they NUS wanted).

It seems that everyone at my uni that didnt leave halls for our week off went too, people who i never spoke politics with EVER. There isnt much condemnation of the "minority of hooligans" either, despite what those NUS dickheads say.

hopefully we see more of this.

[bailey_187]

theres lots of pictures mates of mind uploaded on facebook, what would be best site to upload them to, to post them here?

[Bilan]

Attack of the stones!

[Bilan]

theres lots of pictures mates of mind uploaded on facebook, what would be best site to upload them to, to post them here?

Don't upload any pictures of your friends.

[bailey_187]

Don't upload any pictures of your friends.

ofc not

[Leonid Brozhnev]

You could always blur/obscure their faces.

[bailey_187]

i know, im not stupid. what website though?

[Manic Impressive]

I'm so angry at myself for missing it especially as I was only 1/2 an hour away. I only found out about it at 12:30 last night and now I feel selfish for being angry that I missed it and not being pleased that it happened. Please Please Please tell me there is something else planned?

[Leonid Brozhnev]

i know, im not stupid. what website though?

http://www.majhost.com/ (majhost.com/) is pretty good, no sizing limits or anything..

[human strike]

I'm so angry at myself for missing it especially as I was only 1/2 an hour away. I only found out about it at 12:30 last night and now I feel selfish for being angry that I missed it and not being pleased that it happened. Please Please Please tell me there is something else planned?

I'll be sure to let you know if I hear about anything. :)

On a national level there is a student walkout on the 24th, but I don't know of any big marches or demos.

Oh and on the police numbers, I believe I read/heard there was only 200 initially. They were only expecting 20,000 demonstrators and there were far more police at some football match or summin in London yesterday.

EDIT: Here's a very good account of how it ACTUALLY was: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2010/11/young-scary-future-riot-crowd

[Invader Zim]

Sorry, but this wasn't a riot by any stretch of the imagination. I was there, and fuck all actually happened. Just some kids smashing a couple of windows and then going home while the police watched.

[Buitraker]

More pics!

[Redliberation]

Wish my fellow students over here were similarly militant!

@Invader Zim: Please tell me why you do not think that this was a riot. Sounds like you're just pissed off because it was'nt lead by a vanguard.

And please more pics/videos :)

[Invader Zim]

Those describing this as 'excellent', or evidence of wider violence just waiting to spark off, have the wrong idea at least from what I could see. As have the press, but they know better.

This is what saw, to give a 'report' so to speak:

I got on the bus at 5am travelled several hundred miles to protest the illegitimate plans by a Tory government and their liberal cohorts to undo 60 years worth of very slow progress to wrestle basic rights from the upper classes, such as free health, basic social services and the welfare state, of which the right to a free education is (or rather was) only a small part. Don't get this wrong, over the last 20 years these gains have been eroded one at a time with relatively little resistance from a largely apathetic population. So a protest, to show resistance at last, to reactionary tory plan was something to be a part of; and a further 52,000 others also seem to have agreed (though most of them were there for the one issue rather than the wider picture, and many more were just there for a free day out to London).

I, and my bus of 50 others (along with several other packed coaches from my university) arrived just after the kick off of the protest, and we were let into the 50,000 strong march right atr the front (maybe a thousand people from the front). So when we reached the Tory offices were were literally among the first few to arrive, however the kids who would later begin occupying the offices were already there, but being largely passive, standing at the entrance to the building. They were dressed with their faces covered and waving anarchist paraphernalia. At that stage I went with the rest of the march to listen to the platitude loaded speaches by the quisling wretches from the NUS, etc, which were as tedious and small minded as to be expected; but I wasn't expecting anything else at a protest with very specific aims and goals (to spread awareness regarding the theft of our education by an illegitimate Tory government). I was walking with some people from my uni, but there were a lot of people from the SWP standing near by and a fair few people brandishing flags and t-shirts displaying the hammer and sickle, which was heart warming, and it was a very friendly and upbeat affair. There were also other people there protesting (including some OAPs with their own signs but their in solidarity, so it wasn't just students). When the speaches ended I wandered back towards the Tory Offices towards the tube station I was headed for, and witnessed what had just begun at the Tory offices. A few, maybe fifty (at most) individuals were either inside the building or attacking the windows, while the police largely stood by and watched in a long line outside the door, with a couple of minor skirmishes going on (I later heard that the police started to trap people in and around the building, and the fights escallated slightly). There was a crowd of maybe a thousand (maybe a couple, it was hard to judge) stood outside also watching, pressed tightly right upto where the police were outside the doors. A couple of things were being chucked at the police and someone had setfire to a couple of signs. I didn't see anybody on the roof, though I heard, from friends, that later people had gotten up there and were chucking shit at the crowd including a fire extinguisher (the prick who threw that, and was lucky not to have killed someone, should have jumped after it). After a while it struck me, and those I was with, that we weren't going to be able to get any closer, and that there wasn't going to be any more to see (and if there was (which we very seriously doubted) we didn't want a face full of CS), so went to the pub.

So all in all this was not, from what I saw, a riot, by any stretch of the imagination. What it was, was a very small group of individuals who had turned up with the specific plan of smashing the Tory office windows. There was nothing, at all, spontanious about it. It was clearly pre-planned, and everybody I was with, and around me, knew it. They were there before we were, and I was right near the front, so I presume that these people hadn't participated part of the march and had headed straight to the offices. Incidentally, some of them weren't even old enough to be students. So this notion of it being a 'student riot', is wrong on both counts. To say it again, the actual violence was confined to literally a handful of people. But there was a large crowd of people outside helping to prevent the police kick them out. Indeed I suspect there were as many people there taking photos as actually breaking windows. Journalists infested the whole affair, not only those from the mainstream media, but plenty of student photographers, as well as randowm bystanders with their camera phones out.

It was not a mass violent demonstration, not that you would get that from the press reporting of the event.

In terms of the actual achievement these people made, I am again dubious. In terms of physical damage, when Inwandered back much later in the evening you couldn't get near the building. The police were out in force by that point. But from what I could see (which admittedly was minimal and at a considerable distance) the damage was confined to the windows and a shit load of litter. Though I guess a lot of office equipment was fucked. So in terms of physical cost I don't think the Tory Party is going to be too worried about escalating insurance premiums. In terms of what the 'riot' means, again, i don't think a lot. The vast majority of people weren't at all violent, and that includes probably 99% of those actually at the offices. So I don't think this signifies a lot at all.

The wider protest would have meant a lot more. 52,000 people turning up would have been a massive display of pressure against the government, especially the liberal democrats who have totally, and utterly predictably, sold the students down the river; and put a lot of pressure on them to stick by their promises and vote against the tuition fees scam. But I think the violent element has actually worked against that issue of the protest. The public support for the student cause has, I think, been badly damaged by the violence, which has been massively overstated by the media, especially the right wing press. And now the tory scum can safely igore the issue and indeed the protest by reducing the entire issue, and their opponents, as violent, spoiled and childish teenagers who, along with their grievences, are to be ignored. Indeed, this fear of mine is already being born out by the responces not only of the press but of the politicans and elements of the public.

Sorry to put a downer on this, but I don't think this is something to be overy pleased or excited about, I don't think it has any real potential of becoming more than a student issue tarred with a largely imaginary reputation for violence. Anyone else there take away the same impression?

PS. I have a few photos from the beginning of the protest and along the march, but my phone packed in during the speaches; I wish I had thought to take a photo of the people outside the Tory offices when I had the chanse. I do have a shitty blurred photo of the guys and girls from the communist league if you want me to upload it. I'll edit the faces out, I don't want those assholes from red watch to see them.

[nuisance]

Sorry, but this wasn't a riot by any stretch of the imagination. I was there, and fuck all actually happened. Just some kids smashing a couple of windows and then going home while the police watched.
The destruction and occupation of the Tory HQ is fuck all to you?
You're probably sour cos you had to go home early or something.

[Quail]

While I know that the property damage was pre-planned, what I think is significant about it is that there was a good reaction from most of the other demonstrators, and if you look at the pictures/videos, you can see that it isn't at all just masked anarchists that are doing the damage. "Ordinary" demonstrators getting involved is a good sign to me that people in general are pissed off enough to do something more militant than write letters to MPs and make a bit of noise.

[Rusty Shackleford]

im definitely not missing out on the March 4th and March 22nd protests in california.

learning from Bailey_187s experience :lol:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Zim, I agree that the actions of breaking windows were pre-planned, but from what I saw there was a significant number of people (perhaps numbering 500 or more) who, by the time the riot was in full flow, had occupied all parts of the Tory HQ. In addition there were some minor scuffles involving some ordinary students, and there are stories of a fair few ordinary, un-attached (in terms of political parties or anarchist movements) students rioting, fighting police and getting up on the top of the roof.

[IndependentCitizen]

Riot...what?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Also, that Laurie Penny article is superb!

[scourge007]

im definitely not missing out on the March 4th and March 22nd protests in california.

learning from Bailey_187s experience :lol:
I want to go , but I gotta figure out LA's bus schedule first.

[durhamleft]

Please oh please can some British comrades come to California and radicalize our students.

Fees are jumping by 15.5 Percent!

Our students are some of the most conservative in Europe, its amazing whats happened. More being planned already!

[durhamleft]

While I know that the property damage was pre-planned, what I think is significant about it is that there was a good reaction from most of the other demonstrators, and if you look at the pictures/videos, you can see that it isn't at all just masked anarchists that are doing the damage. "Ordinary" demonstrators getting involved is a good sign to me that people in general are pissed off enough to do something more militant than write letters to MPs and make a bit of noise.

Couldn't have said it better comrade, there are people who turned up for a march but gained confidence and went for it. It's amazing.

[ed miliband]

Our students are some of the most conservative in Europe, its amazing whats happened. More being planned already!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/nov/11/students-protests-national-24-november

[Lyev]

Comrades, I'm kinda stuck here. I was one of the only people from my college (of about 1500-2000 students and staff, if not more) to attend the protest in London. I tried to build for it, get the student union to do a coach etc., but got little enthusiasm. I had book a coach-seat for myself to go on my own, completely independently. If I were to walk out on the 24th (or take part in any suchlike action) I would be rightly laughed at, because I would be one of the only people taking part. So how can I galvanise some other students into taking part, and rising above apathy?

[Bilan]

Manchester university occupied (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/11/student-protests-demand-accounts)

[durhamleft]

Comrades, I'm kinda stuck here. I was one of the only people from my college (of about 1500-2000 students and staff, if not more) to attend the protest in London. I tried to build for it, get the student union to do a coach etc., but got little enthusiasm. I had book a coach-seat for myself to go on my own, completely independently. If I were to walk out on the 24th (or take part in any suchlike action) I would be rightly laughed at, because I would be one of the only people taking part. So how can I galvanise some other students into taking part, and rising above apathy?

leafleting, social networking, calling meetings and getting all other militant comrades to do the same

[Antifa94]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/nov/11/students-protests-national-24-november
I AM IN LOVE. THEY HAVE BECOME RADICALIZED.

especially
In Cambridge, students protested at the university's annual science, engineering and technology careers fair against "the marketisation of education".

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

We have organised a York students against the Cuts group here.

We havea few events, including a Degree Auction 24th November, which i'm hoping will join up with the national day of protest and end in a walkout or occupation.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Also, look at the number of NUS 'bureaucrats' who have signed the following:

http://teneleventen.wordpress.com/

Aaron Porter might have an uncomfortable period on the NUS EC.

[human strike]

A Degree Auction? Sounds good. How's that work then?

We've got a similar group here at UWE.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Not totally sure how it'll work in practise, think it'll just be a big demo tbh. It's just a tongue in cheek advert - "Degree Auction! Everything must go! Degrees sold to the highest bidder! If we're going to have a free market in education we might as well do it properly"

It's part of York Students Against Cuts which is a broad movement, not just against Education Cuts, so hopefully we can extend the struggle to the entire cuts package on the back of the demo in London.

[pastradamus]

Did anyone see that absolute right-wing ***** Kay Burley's interview with a member of the Manchester University students union on Skynews?

Nothing was said from her perspective on the cause of the the protests/riots nor did she even make an attempt to identify why this was happening but rather accused the protesting students of being thugs and Scum.

[pastradamus]

Comrades, I'm kinda stuck here. I was one of the only people from my college (of about 1500-2000 students and staff, if not more) to attend the protest in London. I tried to build for it, get the student union to do a coach etc., but got little enthusiasm. I had book a coach-seat for myself to go on my own, completely independently. If I were to walk out on the 24th (or take part in any suchlike action) I would be rightly laughed at, because I would be one of the only people taking part. So how can I galvanise some other students into taking part, and rising above apathy?

Then Dont walk out. Whatever you do dont jeopardise your education. Unless you can convince many more people to walk out then I strongly suggest not to. Its all well and good for members of the larger universities to do walk out as they have the strength in numbers that you yourself dont have unfortunetly.

[pastradamus]

Comrades, I'm kinda stuck here. I was one of the only people from my college (of about 1500-2000 students and staff, if not more) to attend the protest in London. I tried to build for it, get the student union to do a coach etc., but got little enthusiasm. I had book a coach-seat for myself to go on my own, completely independently. If I were to walk out on the 24th (or take part in any suchlike action) I would be rightly laughed at, because I would be one of the only people taking part. So how can I galvanise some other students into taking part, and rising above apathy?

Then Dont walk out. Whatever you do dont jeopardise your education. Unless you can convince many more people to walk out then I strongly suggest not to. Its all well and good for members of the larger universities to do walk out as they have the strength in numbers that you yourself dont have unfortunetly.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Did anyone see that absolute right-wing ***** Kay Burley's interview with a member of the Manchester University students union on Skynews?

Nothing was said from her perspective on the cause of the the protests/riots nor did she even make an attempt to identify why this was happening but rather accused the protesting students of being thugs and Scum.

I despise that ginger rodent.

[IndependentCitizen]

I honestly CBF to read anything that comes from Sky News, their articles is not even worthy enough to be my toilet paper.

[Patchd]

Hopefully there'll be a nice sing along of that at the next march. :lol:
We got one going outside the HQ and a few people joined in, unfortunately it seems like most students don't know who Harry Roberts is :tt2:

[Quail]

There was a good chant of "fuck the police" where I was.

[bailey_187]

seriously, how are people saying the occupation was just the actions of a preplanned minority. looking at the footage, alot of people dont have masks on and arent dressed like your average anarchist. im seeing a few people in videos who i know dont even pay attention to politics, let alone part of the AF, or even know wtf anarchism is or whatever

[redmarxist90]

The guardian reports that No 10 has hit out at the lecturers that supported the action on wednesday.

Would post link but i have'nt posted enough yet. :(

[bailey_187]

has anyone seen the Daily Mail article exposing peoples faces and names of some who were involved?

[El Rojo]

also there is a telegraph organised witch hunt caling for names and details of those involved

unleash the spam attacks conrades! i particularly recommend that we send as many pictures of possible of cameron and boris in bullington club attire, maybe with a press article about thier window smashing days

[human strike]

[email protected]


Here's the email. I've already reported sightings of Rupert Murdoch smashing windows - naughty boy.


has anyone seen the Daily Mail article exposing peoples faces and names of some who were involved?

Yeah that was an odd article.

[ed miliband]

Funny how the right wing "libertarian" blogs seemed to kick off the witch-hunt...

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Scummy Daily Mail and Telegraph

[redmarxist90]

Also the metro has reported that a right wing blog is offering £1000 for the name of the guy who threw the fire extinguisher off the roof.

[Sam_b]

The victimisation is on. One comrade from a local university here is being disciplined by uni managment for his participation in events on the 10th. Despicable.

[human strike]

What's it got to do with them, eh?

[redmarxist90]

thats a good point

[ed miliband]

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2010/11/467833.jpg

[human strike]

also there is a telegraph organised witch hunt caling for names and details of those involved

unleash the spam attacks conrades! i particularly recommend that we send as many pictures of possible of cameron and boris in bullington club attire, maybe with a press article about thier window smashing days

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001890124985 (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001871315199)

If you spam this guy's wall all facebook email notifications go to that telegraph email address. Pretty clever and fun form of spam. :lol:

EDIT: changed the link - there was something wrong with the old one.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

That guy's getting nothing but spam, poor little fuck.

[bricolage]

Someone sent me a link to a meeting the 'Education Activists Network' (a SWP led initiative) is putting on Monday. But it says;

"Coordinating meeting: Where next after the national demonstration?
Monday 15th November, 6pm, King’s College London
Speakers include Aaron Porter (NUS President) and Alison Lord (Tower Hamlets College strike)"

Is Aaron Porter really speaking at this meeting? If so, then wtf?

[human strike]

lol'd

[Steve_j]

Is Aaron Porter really speaking at this meeting? If so, then wtf?

Thanks for that, will pass the info on, whilst im one for solidarity, traitors need to be put in their place. I suggest everyone pass it on, attend if they can and give him stick. He represents no one but himself and his self serving political agenda. A tory in the making he is.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Thanks for that, will pass the info on, whilst im one for solidarity, traitors need to be put in their place. I suggest everyone pass it on, attend if they can and give him stick. He represents no one but himself and his self serving political agenda. A tory in the making he is.
I agree. What the fuck are the SWP doing giving this reformist bastard a platform in a radical movement a few days after he dismissed those at Millbank as 'idiots'?

[IndependentCitizen]

I agree. What the fuck are the SWP doing giving this reformist bastard a platform in a radical movement a few days after he dismissed those at Millbank as 'idiots'?
I lol'd. Thank you... :D

[Manic Impressive]

I'm gonna try and go and heckle that traitor. Anyone got any good ideas for heckles? if so I shall shout 'em out for you.

[Broletariat]

I'm gonna try and go and heckle that traitor. Anyone got any good ideas for heckles? if so I shall shout 'em out for you.
Just scream MAKE. TOTAL. DESTROY. the whole time.

[ed miliband]

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/162571/David-Cameron-Riot-students-will-be-caught-/


Daily Star readers remained split last night over whether the students were right to riot, with 54% saying yes and 46% saying no.

Apparently Paul O'Grady explicitly supported the use of direct action on his show last night, and when he condemned the throwing of the fire extinguisher he commented that it would have been more useful as a battering ram!

So yeah, there seems to be some populist support now...

[brigadista]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/12/spending-cuts-fightback-begins

[Devrim]

Jonathan Haynes picking up from Adam here. As protesters are released from cordons of police outside Millbank Tower, some have been speaking out. Leila Khaled, 22, a student at Essex University described the police tactics as kettling - the tactic of penning in protesters widely criticised after its use at the G20 protests in London last year.

either this girl has the coolest leftist parents ever or this journalist just got trolled. :lol:

You should never give your real name to journalists anyway. Leila Khaled isn't such a strange name. The first and surname are both reasonably common. I know two of them (one Leyla), and my friends and I are old enough to have been named before she was famous.

On the subject of leftist names, I met a guy at work whose first name was Yoldaş (Comrade) on Thursday. In Turkey leftist names are quite common. 'Revolution' and 'demonstration' are quite normal names. I have never met a 'Comrade' before though.

Devrim

[Hen]

Listened to a radio show where a cultural studies lecturer in a UK university condoned the riots, saying they are trivial compared to the real vandalism that is being inflicted on our education system...The 19-year-old Oxford politics and economics student, a guest on the show replied...'oh dear, I cannot believe you, a university lecturer, is inciting violence'. Then he claimed that a dustbin man shouldn't pay for anyone to go to university...Umm but of course nobody will pay for the dustbin man's children to go to university, because according to you mr student toff you shouldn't go to university if you can't afford it...typical

[bricolage]

There have been quite a few education staff that have come out in support, I mean not massive amounts but more than perhaps would have been expected. I think this is crucial, if this struggle cannot progress beyond students to staff and more so to lower paid University workers then I can't see it going anywhere.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKpl_vf2u7M

Paul O'Grady on the occupation

[I.O.T.M]

It's good to see that there's popular support for these protests. Due to the severity of the cuts, it would be naive to think that there won't be more protests and riots. Also, the cuts will radicalise more working people, although, and this is unfortunate, it will probably lead most people to vote for the Tory reserve team that is New Labour.

[human strike]

There have been quite a few education staff that have come out in support, I mean not massive amounts but more than perhaps would have been expected. I think this is crucial, if this struggle cannot progress beyond students to staff and more so to lower paid University workers then I can't see it going anywhere.

Oh there is plenty of support from staff. In many ways they are more angry than the students at the current situation with many redundancies on the immediate horizon. At my uni they're already trying to axe 80 researchers with a number taking voluntary redundancy rather than go through the stress of competing with their colleagues. I've little doubt UCU will strike, they just have to.

[human strike]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23897210-bring-down-the-government-says-student-march-organiser.do

[Manic Impressive]

From That^^ article

Lib-Dem MP Tim Farron, who has called tuition fees the “poll tax of our generation” added: “There is no such thing as legitimate violence.”
A Downing Street spokeswoman said: “People have a right to protest, it's a tradition of our country. But the Government does not condone violence, intimidation or the destruction of property. Such action is irresponsible.”

Tell that to the police
Tell that to the army
Take a look at yourselves

[ed miliband]

waAniAG-Nf0

[deLarge]

what we want to see in this country is workers and students taking mass action. We want a general strike in this country. We want barricaded schools. We want to give people the confidence to fight back against the cuts.

yes.

[ed miliband]

Support from a Daily Mail columnist(!): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1329466/SUZANNE-MOORE-Stick-wielding-Leftie-yobs-Not-lovely-boys-I-met-pub.html

[human strike]

Mind=blown.

[IndependentCitizen]

Support from a Daily Mail columnist(!): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1329466/SUZANNE-MOORE-Stick-wielding-Leftie-yobs-Not-lovely-boys-I-met-pub.html


I love reading the typical DM readers' comments. The columnist writes a decent article, unlike the rest of DM's columnists, and she gets shit for it.

[redmarxist90]

it was a good article and as stated above she does get shit for it. It's quite amazing that a columnist from the Daily Mail actually writes something like that showing.

[Invader Zim]

The destruction and occupation of the Tory HQ is fuck all to you?
You're probably sour cos you had to go home early or something.

Well what do you suppose has been achieved? By now the mess will be gone and some passionate people will forever have criminal records (one guy maybe even an attempted murder charge - though he was a fucking dumbass), and what do they - and the rest of us who were in London - have to show for it? There is no militant student revolution, as the right wing press were screeching; the smashing of windows has not won over the general public (if anything it has alienated the vast chunks of it); it has not convinced the politicans to change their stance on tuition fees or any other issue, in fact it has made them more determined to appear unwilling to back down in the face of imaginary 'violence' and if anything played right into their hands. No, what has been achieved is that the Tory Party insurance policy may be a few quid higher next policy renual.

Sorry, but I struggle to see what was actually achieved. Don't get me wrong, it is good to see that people are pissed off and passionate, but that does not equate progress; in fact their actions were very ill-concieved in regards to furthering the cause that the protest was actually about; altering government policy on HE. That said I'm willing to change my mind, if there is something glaringly obvious and positive that I haven't taken from this then 'riot', please point it out

And no, I didn't go 'home early', I was in London, around Millbank, till late in the evening; and as reported what I saw with my own eyes doesn't reflect what we are being told by the press about this protest. To be fair, i did vanish to the pub for a few hours, but that was because there was indeed little actually happening beyond watching people attack windows, and that ceased being interesting viewing when I was about 13.

[Wanted Man]

Then he claimed that a dustbin man shouldn't pay for anyone to go to university...Umm but of course nobody will pay for the dustbin man's children to go to university, because according to you mr student toff you shouldn't go to university if you can't afford it...typical

Shit, that's exactly what the Dutch Labour Party and the Green Party ("left" parties...) said when they supported the abolition of student grants: "The baker around the corner should not pay for the study of the future lawyer." Do these pricks have some kind of think-tank where they share these sound bites?

[The Grey Blur]

invader zim: the only 'vast chunks' of people 'alienated' by a bit of broken glass are middle class squeamish types who are about as removed from any revolutionary movement as the reanimated corpse of ronald reagan

here, i think this blog post aptly satirizes the 'outrage' over the broken windows being spewed by the bourgeois press and legitimised by leftist apologists such as yourself: http://triflingoffence.blogspot.com/2010/11/national-day-of-mourning-declared-for.html

i agree that the riot was more or less pointless in political terms, but i'm not going to join the bourgeois and their crocodile tears.

[Mannimarco]

I wish I was there.

[human strike]

http://triflingoffence.blogspot.com/2010/11/national-day-of-mourning-declared-for.html

via Manic. ;)

[Manic Impressive]

http://triflingoffence.blogspot.com/2010/11/national-day-of-mourning-declared-for.html

via Manic. ;)

LoL it's via The Grey Blur it's the same link as 2 posts above I liked it so much I stuck it on Facebook LMAO :laugh:

[BeerShaman]

Crocodile tears! Cry cry a**hole!

[human strike]

LoL it's via The Grey Blur it's the same link as 2 posts above I liked it so much I stuck it on Facebook LMAO :laugh:

lol I managed to miss that. >.<

[nuisance]

Well what do you suppose has been achieved? By now the mess will be gone and some passionate people will forever have criminal records (one guy maybe even an attempted murder charge - though he was a fucking dumbass), and what do they - and the rest of us who were in London - have to show for it? There is no militant student revolution, as the right wing press were screeching; the smashing of windows has not won over the general public (if anything it has alienated the vast chunks of it); it has not convinced the politicans to change their stance on tuition fees or any other issue, in fact it has made them more determined to appear unwilling to back down in the face of imaginary 'violence' and if anything played right into their hands. No, what has been achieved is that the Tory Party insurance policy may be a few quid higher next policy renual.

Sorry, but I struggle to see what was actually achieved. Don't get me wrong, it is good to see that people are pissed off and passionate, but that does not equate progress; in fact their actions were very ill-concieved in regards to furthering the cause that the protest was actually about; altering government policy on HE. That said I'm willing to change my mind, if there is something glaringly obvious and positive that I haven't taken from this then 'riot', please point it out

And no, I didn't go 'home early', I was in London, around Millbank, till late in the evening; and as reported what I saw with my own eyes doesn't reflect what we are being told by the press about this protest. To be fair, i did vanish to the pub for a few hours, but that was because there was indeed little actually happening beyond watching people attack windows, and that ceased being interesting viewing when I was about 13.
Jog on.

[Invader Zim]

invader zim: the only 'vast chunks' of people 'alienated' by a bit of broken glass are middle class squeamish types who are about as removed from any revolutionary movement as the reanimated corpse of ronald reagan

here, i think this blog post aptly satirizes the 'outrage' over the broken windows being spewed by the bourgeois press and legitimised by leftist apologists such as yourself: http://triflingoffence.blogspot.com/2010/11/national-day-of-mourning-declared-for.html

i agree that the riot was more or less pointless in political terms, but i'm not going to join the bourgeois and their crocodile tears.

You are confused; I'm not remotely bothered by the trashing of the Tory Party offices, in of it self. What does concern me is whether this actually achieved anything tangible (and you conceed that it didn't) and whether it handed ammunition to the rightwing politicans and press who dominate the discourse on this topic, when there is no obvious political gain for doing so. Indeed, the only thing this has achieved is getting the protest on the front page of just about every newspaper in the country; but I don't buy into the notion that any publicity is good publicity. And unlike the vast majority of people posting on this thread, I actually have a lot personaly riding, and imminently, on the success of this campaign; so I actually worry if people have inadvertently given the press and politicans the ammunition to paint us all in a negative light.


the only 'vast chunks' of people 'alienated' by a bit of broken glass are middle class squeamish types who are about as removed from any revolutionary movement as the reanimated corpse of ronald reagan

Well, as happy as I would be to accept this utterly unprovable assertion, it contradicts my own very worrying observations upon my return from London. If anything what I have seen is that people have seen the acts of vandalism as a manifestation of a petulant, middle class, sense of entitlement and worse still buy into the Daily Mail style generalisation that implies that all students are like that. Which doesn't supprise me because that is exactly how it is being painted by the bulk of the media.


Jog on.

I'll take your failure to list the progressive political gains cultivated by smashing windows as an admission that you can't actually think of any but don't have the honesty to admit it. But I wouldn't expect you, who has little to directly lose by this Tory destruction of British HE, to understand that this is fucking real for some of us, as is the rent money I need to pay which will be gone the moment the 40% teaching cuts are introduced and I lose the life line that is my part time job as a tutor. I also wonder whether the last seven years of shitty part time jobs and damp rotting flats have all been a total waste of time. I worry that my friends aren't going to have their temporary teaching contracts renewed. I worry about the 80 colleagues in another department in my uni who have all been made redundant. So sorry if i take this a little bit more seriously than a fucking jolly day out to London to smash some windows.

[Omi]

The proposal might not have been stopped by thrashing the windows of the Tory HQ, but it sure as hell showed a lot of people that it is possible to directly attack the institutions that make your life miserable. This is a great political gain for every revolutionary on the left.

Demonstrations and direct actions usually don't instantly achieve anything tangible, but they do constitute a large proportion of what a social movement actually does. And social movements do, if successful, achieve something tangible.

So whilst not achieving something tangible, these sort of actions do help to build a revolutionary momentum, and should be supported. Condemning them for not achieving something instantly, is like condemning almost every form of resistance and attack ever.

[Invader Zim]

The proposal might not have been stopped by thrashing the windows of the Tory HQ, but it sure as hell showed a lot of people that it is possible to directly attack the institutions that make your life miserable. This is a great political gain for every revolutionary on the left.

Had this been the message taken by most people, I would agree with you. But a cursary examination of the comments page of most of the mainstream media outlets suggests that your view is far more optomistic than the situation warrents; indeed reading through the comments, with a couple of exceptions, is a very disheartening experience; as is speaking to people about the issue.



Demonstrations and direct actions usually don't instantly achieve anything tangible, but they do constitute a large proportion of what a social movement actually does. And social movements do, if successful, achieve something tangible.

True, it is certainly the case that this may be possible that this builds into something beyond its current state, which is largely confised to students and student issues. Howver, I'm dubious that it will, and I'm also dubious that the allegedly violent element of this protest (which I maintain has been hyped well beyond what it actually was, at least from what I saw when i was there, by the press) has not set back the opposition to the proposal by burning vital currency with the wider British public who we desperately need to stand with us against the Tory machinations.

But I'm a dower bastard and typically see the worst in situations. So I hope you're right, and I'm wrong; and will be in London again on the 24th.

[S.Artesian]

You are confused; I'm not remotely bothered by the trashing of the Tory Party offices, in of it self. What does concern me is whether this actually achieved anything tangible (and you conceed that it didn't) and whether it handed ammunition to the rightwing politicans and press who dominate the discourse on this topic, when there is no obvious political gain for doing so. Indeed, the only thing this has achieved is getting the protest on the front page of just about every newspaper in the country; but I don't buy into the notion that any publicity is good publicity. And unlike the vast majority of people posting on this thread, I actually have a lot personaly riding, and imminently, on the success of this campaign; so I actually worry if people have inadvertently given the press and politicans the ammunition to paint us all in a negative light.

Every time demonstrators, protests, move beyond passive resistance, beyond simple statements of protest, we get the above catechism. So when African-Americans took a bit of organized exception to getting beaten by police in Watts, or Detroit, or New York... you get the old "what trees do they plant?" routine. And you get the "giving the police, the state, the right wing an excuse to crackdown" mantra. And mantra those both are, meaningless statements that when repeated over and over is supposed to give comfort to the utterer.

Hardly a program for class struggle is it?

Let's be clear: The students, workers, pensioners of Britain face a violent assault organized by the bourgeoisie on living standards, education standards, health and welfare. In the struggle against those violent attacks, some are going to respond in kind. Like it or not, politically astute or not, those things happen, particularly when there is not yet an organized, comprehensive, and revolutionary opposition.

Those who respond to the violence by kicking in the doors of the Tory headquarters are our allies. You don't think kicking in the doors is revolutionary? Nobody thinks it's revolutionary. But this ridiculous hand-wringing about what it accomplishes, the threat of reaction, and "turning people off" is just so much baloney, and an evasion of actually developing that organization and that comprehensive opposition that will make the struggle more powerful.




I'll take your failure to list the progressive political gains cultivated by smashing windows as an admission that you can't actually think of any but don't have the honesty to admit it. But I wouldn't expect you, who has little to directly lose by this Tory destruction of British HE, to understand that this is fucking real for some of us, as is the rent money I need to pay which will be gone the moment the 40% teaching cuts are introduced and I lose the life line that is my part time job as a tutor. I also wonder whether the last seven years of shitty part time jobs and damp rotting flats have all been a total waste of time. I worry that my friends aren't going to have their temporary teaching contracts renewed. I worry about the 80 colleagues in another department in my uni who have all been made redundant. So sorry if i take this a little bit more seriously than a fucking jolly day out to London to smash some windows.Progressive political gains achieved by actually smashing some windows? None. Progressive political gains achieved by smashing all the windows of the government? Priceless. I'm speaking metaphorically, of course.. But why, if your concern is how vicious the government assaults are, single out the relatively insignificant defensive violence of those being attacked? Why judge that against a standard of immediate progressive political gains, when there have been exactly ZERO progressive political gains in the UK since Heath was turned out of office?

[Invader Zim]

Every time demonstrators, protests, move beyond passive resistance, beyond simple statements of protest, we get the above catechism. So when African-Americans took a bit of organized exception to getting beaten by police in Watts, or Detroit, or New York... you get the old "what trees do they plant?" routine. And you get the "giving the police, the state, the right wing an excuse to crackdown" mantra. And mantra those both are, meaningless statements that when repeated over and over is supposed to give comfort to the utterer.

This is logically suspect because it makes several false assumptions. Most notably that being critical of violence at single one protest revolving round around once single issue does not automatically equate criticism of violence at all protests regarding all issue; and my comment certainly does not concern the wider legitimacy of violent responce to violence inflicted by the state. It is specifically to do with the political capital which has either been gained/lost in this particular event.

And, given the very weak position of the Tory and Lib-Dem coalition, which needs the oxygen of public support unlike no other, it is vital that political activism doesn't hand it to them; and in this instance I think it is manifestly obvious that this fallout from this protest has been largely in their favour. My worry here is purely one of stratagy, not the acceptability of violent protest.


Let's be clear: The students, workers, pensioners of Britain face a violent assault organized by the bourgeoisie on living standards, education standards, health and welfare.

Don't preach to me about the impact this legislation will have on peoples lives. Being that I face the imminent prospect of losing my primary source of income that funds my studies, and indeed pays my rent, I feel that I am uniquely qualified, as far as this board goes, to worry about the devistation of this Tory government is going to bring. Which is why maximising the positive political capital of the protest on the 10th and the coming one on the 24th is something that worries me.


But why, if your concern is how vicious the government assaults are, single out the relatively insignificant defensive violence of those being attacked?

Because what they did may well, as I have argued, been negligable, but how it is percieved and been inflated by the press most certainly is not.

[S.Artesian]

I'm not preaching to anyone, and while you think you are in a unique position, you're not. That's the point, the whole point as a matter of fact. You're in a class position-- just as those students are.

I'm not making any assumptions about your personal position on violence. I am pointing out how this, these complaints about handing the right, the media, the state [pick one or all] an "excuse" are always made by those claiming to be in unique positions to really understand the importance of the issues. Yeah, right.

In the immortal words of James Connolly-- "All hail the mob, the incarnation of progress."

I don't have the slightest worry about "how the protests look to Mr. and Mrs. Public," what the media says about them, what the government does. The media is going to say what it says no matter what occurs, violence, no violence. They're paid to say that.

As for Mr. and Mrs. Public, Mr. and Mrs. Public don't exist. They are creations-- fetishes put up to obscure the real relations of class-- if the protests rip that veil away and polarize the discussion between those who think the violence of the protesters is, if anything, restrained, and those who think the violence of the state in preserving the banks is justified, then all the better.

[Thirsty Crow]

As an analogy, the media here where I live did exactly the same thing when the first wave of completely non-violent occupations and takeovers of universities, with its stopages of lectures, occured.
The campaign of defamation will always be present.
And the real qustion thus is: where should we stop then, what actions are necessarily foribidden if we wish the "general public" to support us?

Going by the logic of Invader Zim, Croatian students shouldn't have commenced these actions, which have been received as "radical". We should've done what we were in fact doing prior to that - protests. And look where it got us, them protests.

[Invader Zim]

and while you think you are in a unique position, you're not.

I didn't claim to be in a unique position, I claimed that in the context of this board, I have a unique position to worry about the impact of Tory policy. I certainly am when compared to you, and the bulk of the middle class teenagers on this thread, painting this protest as a marvelous political victory when it is in danger of becoming the precise opposite.



In the immortal words of James Connolly-- "All hail the mob, the incarnation of progress."

Captain Original strikes again. Do you actually have anything to add on how to maximise the political capital generated by this event? Do you, personally, have anything riding on this event or issue - or are you, as I suspect, an armchair commentator lecturing to those of who were there with material interests in the issue? Do you think that the fall out from this protest has actually been positive and serious gains have actually been made? Do you suggest that there are not other tactics and stratagies available that would have placed more pressure on the Coalition government to drop this policy? Do you have anything to say actually worth reading or are clichés all you have to offer?


And the real qustion thus is: where should we stop then, what actions are necessarily foribidden if we wish the "general public" to support us?

Clearly, that entirely depends on the situation. Manifestly the Ford Sewing Machinists who staged walkouts, demos and went on a three week strike wouldn't have aided their cause by smashing the windows of the Ford plant at Dagenham, while what they did do arguably led to the Equal Pay Act of 1970. While the Stonewall Riots were an entirely different kettle of fish.


Going by the logic of Invader Zim, Croatian students shouldn't have commenced these actions, which have been received as "radical". We should've done what we were in fact doing prior to that - protests. And look where it got, them protests.

Well, that isn't my 'logic' at all. My point is that violence is but one tactic, and that its most effective use is dependent upon the circumstances. In the case of this protest, on this issue, at this time vandalising the Tory Offices at Millbank appears to have backfired, in that it hasn't aided students in limiting the ability of the Tory Party in crushing British HE, rather it has aided the Tories by handing by depriving us students with the upper hand in terms of public support and handing it straight to the Tories and Lib Dems (which they desperately needed). That does not, for a second, imply that the same can be said of the situation in Croatia, which I won't pass comment on because I don't know anything about it.

[human strike]

Anyone remember this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo

[S.Artesian]

I certainly am when compared to you, and the bulk of the middle class teenagers on this thread, painting this protest as a marvelous political victory when it is in danger of becoming the precise opposite. Were you even at the protest?



Oh save your clichés. You clearly don't have anything to add to any meaningful discussion on how to maximise the political capital generated by this event; you have nothing riding on this event or issue; and your portrayal of what is essencially an act of minor vandalism speaks volumes of your detachment to feeling on the ground at the protest and the wider community, which has been nothing short of disheartening.

You're smug one, aren't you? I haven't glorified anything. I've defended those who acted against the austerity program from your ridiculous whimpering and hand-wringing. That's the only point I wanted to make.

As for political capital generated by this event, interesting choice of words on your part, -- political capital. This event, in conjunction with the confrontations in France, Greece, Spain are generating political anti-capital.
How successful the movements will be depends, in some small part, on not worrying what the press is going to say, is always going to say.

[nuisance]

But I wouldn't expect you, who has little t this Tory destruction of British HE, to understand that this is fucking real for some of us, as is the rent money I need to pay which will be gone the moment the 40% teaching cuts are introduced and I lose the life line that is my part time job as a tutor.
Sorry, but if you cannot understand the marked change from a impotent and sterile movement to one that has phyiscally confronted one of the main culprits of the attack upon them, then I would seriously doubt that you should able to be a tutor, when something so obvious is clearly missed. And anyway, how the fuck would you know what I have to lose?

[bricolage]

The lecturers' union president has signed a statement refusing to condemn protesters who attacked a Conservative party building last week. Alan Whitaker has joined calls to "rally behind all who were arrested for fighting to defend their education".http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11758260

[The Grey Blur]

invader: a poll i saw indicated that in fact a majority of the public thought the "violence" of breaking a bit of glass was justified. i don't think it achieved anything, but i appreciate that it was an expression of real anger on the part of ordinary student, every account that i've read makes it clear that the political types involved - the swp and anarchists were a very small minority. the point of this is that you stand with your own even if you don't agree with their specific actions - an injury to one is an injury to all. if the right-wing press can use this as an excuse for police heavy-handedness in the future then that will be a real blow to anti-establishment rallies and movements. i really wonder sometimes why you post on this site since your political beliefs seem to just be those of a boring middle class history post-grad and not remotely revolutionary.

[Redliberation]

As an analogy, the media here where I live did exactly the same thing when the first wave of completely non-violent occupations and takeovers of universities, with its stopages of lectures, occured.
The campaign of defamation will always be present.
And the real qustion thus is: where should we stop then, what actions are necessarily foribidden if we wish the "general public" to support us?

Going by the logic of Invader Zim, Croatian students shouldn't have commenced these actions, which have been received as "radical". We should've done what we were in fact doing prior to that - protests. And look where it got us, them protests.

The same happened in Austria when we occupied our universities for weeks. Completely non-violent. And nothing happened.

@Invader Zim: Don't think that the media would've supported you if it would have been a normal non-violent protest... they don't give a shit. All they want is to destroy every single link the students have with the working class. And they manage that without any riots too.

[Omi]

@ Invader: I understand you may have doubts about the usefulness of this tactic (attacking a building that represents oppression) but ask yourself one thing: How on earth would you plan to prevent such a thing from happening, if it doesn't fit your definition of ''strategic usefulness''? The mechanisms that would have to be put in place to prevent an direct attack from happening are a much larger threat to a social movement than some rightists complaining about the attack.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Its foolish to say that it didn't achieve anything. For starters, it gave many disillusioned and not necessarily radical students an insight to what their force can be potentially, should they decide to recognize it. Even if 30 students walked away from Millbank with a new radical outlook, then it was a success. Then there's the fact that this was a symbolic act of destruction that was almost completely spontaneous and actually was a slap in the face to our shitty government!

It was also the first thing of its kind in Britain for a long time, and it reflects the urgency of the situation here. We should embrace it and use it as a building block to a nationwide campaign against the government's cuts package.

I can only hope for more civil disobedience and organization.

Btw, Sussex Uni has been occupied today.

[Invader Zim]

Sorry, but if you cannot understand the marked change from a impotent and sterile movement to one that has phyiscally confronted one of the main culprits of the attack upon them, then I would seriously doubt that you should able to be a tutor, when something so obvious is clearly missed. And anyway, how the fuck would you know what I have to lose?

Jesus Christ, this wasn't the Battle of Cable Street. Your assumption that the movement against these cuts is any less impotent, after a few people smashed some windows and office furniture, than it was before speaks volumes of your utter detachment from reality.

As for my ability to tutor I am actually teaching a course to undergraduate students, who clearly know far more than you do, a course on radicalism. Suffice to say both I, and they, recognise that violent protest can be a double edged sword and its successful application is determined by the circumstances in which it is employed - as is the application of any tactic in protest. If I didn't know that then you might have a point about my fitness to teach. But that is why I do teach and you don't. Jog on.


a poll i saw indicated that in fact a majority of the public thought the "violence" of breaking a bit of glass was justified.

The one in the Star? I saw that too, and it certainly eased my mind.


if the right-wing press can use this as an excuse for police heavy-handedness in the future then that will be a real blow to anti-establishment rallies and movements.

And you think it won't be? My guess is that every second cop in London is going to be there on the 24th and a shit load of people are going to be kettled.


This event, in conjunction with the confrontations in France, Greece, Spain are generating political anti-capital.

If you think that this protest has resulted in growing anti-capitalist sentiment, even among those at the protest then you are engaged in pure fantasy. If anything the reverse is true, i spent six hours returning home on a bus full students dejected pretty much the entire British press had just labeled them as hooligans and discounted their cause in front of the entire British public, because a few people had smashed a few of windows. You think most of those people are going to return to London ina couple of weeks time? I don't.


@ Invader: I understand you may have doubts about the usefulness of this tactic (attacking a building that represents oppression) but ask yourself one thing: How on earth would you plan to prevent such a thing from happening, if it doesn't fit your definition of ''strategic usefulness''? The mechanisms that would have to be put in place to prevent an direct attack from happening are a much larger threat to a social movement than some rightists complaining about the attack.

That isn't quite what I'm saying. I'm saying that I have my doubts that attacking the building was useful in this one instance. But in regards to your point, I'm not saying you should, let alone could, try to prevent it. My point is purely confined to what it has or, more likely, hasn't achieved in this single instance.


Even if 30 students walked away from Millbank with a new radical outlook, then it was a success.

And what of those who, having turned upto the protest on the 10th to find themselves stereotyped as violent hooligans, decide not to bother going to any more protests on the issue? My guess, based on having to sit with a bus load of them hundreds of miles home, is that there will be a lot more of those tired and dejected people than there were leaving Millbank with a new radical outlook.

[bricolage]

About 200 university students are occupying a lecture theatre following a protest against the rise in tuition fees.
The students decided to start an occupation in a lecture theatre in the Fulton Building, on the University of Sussex (http://www.sussex.ac.uk/) campus, Falmer, at about 5pm today.
It followed a march which began in Library Square at about 4pm and ended near the halls of residence.
A student who only wanted to be known as Tom, said: “About 200 of us have just started an occupation in a lecture theatre on campus in protest at the proposals to cut tuition fees and the cuts to education funding.
“The occupation is calling for students in universities and colleges across the country to follow our lead. People are discussing how long we will stay here at the moment.”
The 22-year-old added that the occupation had been a spontaneous decision and that people had been inspired by the protest in London last week.
He said: “It has brought new energy to our campaign. The support of our Wednesday protest has been carried forward to our campus.”
He said they had decided to occupy the Fulton building because it was new and expensive.
He said: “It opened at the same time they made more than 100 lecturers redundant. We are now reclaiming this space.”
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/8638287.University_of_Sussex_students_occupy_lectu re_theatre_following_protest_on_campus/

[redmarxist90]

good on them

[nuisance]

Jesus Christ, this wasn't the Battle of Cable Street. Your assumption that the movement against these cuts is any less impotent, after a few people smashed some windows and office furniture, than it was before speaks volumes of your utter detachment from reality.

As for my ability to tutor I am actually teaching a course to undergraduate students, who clearly know far more than you do, a course on radicalism. Suffice to say both I, and they, recognise that violent protest can be a double edged sword and its successful application is determined by the circumstances in which it is employed - as is the application of any tactic in protest. If I didn't know that then you might have a point about my fitness to teach. But that is why I do teach and you don't. Jog on.
:lol:
You can keep your poor attempts of academia to recuperate and explain social revolt.

[Invader Zim]

:lol:
You can keep your poor attempts of academia to recuperate and explain social revolt.

I'm not entirely sure I can translate this gibberish into something resembling clarity. Want to try again?

[S.Artesian]

I'm not entirely sure I can translate this gibberish into something resembling clarity. Want to try again?

But I can translate yours:

1. not so fast
2. slow down
3. don't do anything that might get liberal and media knickers in a twist
4. things are bad and getting worse
5. anything you do is simply an affirmation of how worse things are getting
6. I know more than you.
7. I know more than anyone.
8. Isn't it obvious?

[Invader Zim]

But I can translate yours:

1. not so fast
2. slow down
3. don't do anything that might get liberal and media knickers in a twist
4. things are bad and getting worse
5. anything you do is simply an affirmation of how worse things are getting
6. I know more than you.
7. I know more than anyone.
8. Isn't it obvious?

You have one thing right there out of 8, I do know more than you. Well done.

On that note, I'm done. I hope you are all correct, that I am utterly wrong having totally misread the situation when I was there and when I got home, and this does build into something more and that my negativity is entirely misplaced. I really do, and should that prove to be the case I will be on here all apologies.

I would say good luck for the protest on the 24th, and hope to see y'all there; but I doubt many of the internet warriors here will be there.

[Jazzhands]

let's get sum riot porn up in this motherfucker!

[S.Artesian]

Sure you do. And you prove it with every whine, whimper, and blowing of your nose about how violence doesn't accomplish anything; how the public is alienated; how the violence enables the press and the government to "smear" the demonstrations, when in fact none of those are real issues

Not real? How is that? Because the public is always "alienated" in as much as no such thing as "the public" exists. Public is a totem, a false construction, used to control and enforce restrictions on resistance and rebellion.

Because the press will slander and smear no matter what the demonstrators do or don't do. If you know so much more than me you would know that in the history of peaceful demonstrations attacked by police and thugs, the press has always, initially, and consistently attacked the demonstrators, identified them as the source of the violence.

It is only when the social struggle advances to the point where millions engage in the very struggles that just yesterday they were so alienated from and by, that the press might, just might, tone down its accusations.

I never said the violence accomplished anything. I think condemning the violence is horseshit, is caving to the fetish of "public order." It was horseshit and cowardice to condemn the anti-globalization rebellion in Seattle 1999. It was horseshit and cowardice to condemn the Greek students and workers who did a bit more than kick a door or two. It was horseshit to condemn the residents of the banlieue outside Paris when they decided they had had enough of the cops.

It's horseshit to make a big thing out of the violence that took place at the demonstration. These things happen. People get angry. The movement is not yet organized. It hasn't yet articulated a program to replace the simple fury with mass action. That's what happens. That's a starting point. Get over it.

Or not.

You probably won't see me at the next protest in London, since I'm in New York. Let me know when you can come over and keep us here from making the dreadful mistakes our UK cousins made. For my part, there is no progress without such mistakes. Which gets us back to Connolly and exactly why he said "All hail the mob, the incarnation of progress."

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

some cool footage on here brothers and sisters: http://www.youtube.com/user/candyandholly?feature=mhsn

[Matty_UK]

If you think that this protest has resulted in growing anti-capitalist sentiment, even among those at the protest then you are engaged in pure fantasy. If anything the reverse is true, i spent six hours returning home on a bus full students dejected pretty much the entire British press had just labeled them as hooligans and discounted their cause in front of the entire British public, because a few people had smashed a few of windows. You think most of those people are going to return to London ina couple of weeks time? I don't.

I think your impression of the attack on Millbank has been influenced a lot by the coach you happened to be on - on the coach I was on, (containing only 5 regular activists) the mood was one of exhilaration and enthusiasm, and people felt empowered, thinking if it was that easy to smash Tory HQ, then what can't we do? I'm at Manchester University and prior to the demo the anti-cuts meetings were stale and uneventful, struggling to get anyone other than SWSS members and a few people from the Union Exec to come along, whereas today we had an enormous meeting where we had to move into the cafe (a very large room which nobody ever really uses) because none of the meeting rooms could hold us. Plus, only a few hours after we trashed Millbank, about 100 people (60 or so inside, a crowd of about 40 latecomers outside - and this is literally about 10 times the amount of people who normally turn up to anti-cuts meetings!) were involved in occupying the finance offices with no prior planning or organisation, fuelled entirely by post-demo enthusiasm. This wouldn't have happened if we had a typical tedious protest, the sort where the most frequently heard comments afterwards are complaints that it won't have changed anything, and frequently a feeling of hopelessness and frustration. Whether the majority of the public disagreed with our tactics or not doesn't really matter to be honest - it won't influence public opinion to leaning in favour of the cuts one jot. Aside from people who are tories anyway, every single critical comment has been along the lines of "what a shame a worthwhile protest got tainted by a minority of idiots."

However, the effect that I have noticed is the people who approved of it, minority or not, are now getting involved in political activities at the university. I doubt a single person has decided to support the cuts out of disgust with our behaviour, so there hasn't really been damage done, but as the action did inspire people to join the movement and did set a precedent for how serious the day of action of the 24th will be and how seriously it will be taken, I think we've had a net gain.

Also, it has to be said I've heard far more people criticising the action because it will allegedly alienate support than I've heard people criticising it because they actually give a shit Tory HQ got smashed up.

[IndependentCitizen]

Well what do you suppose has been achieved? By now the mess will be gone and some passionate people will forever have criminal records (one guy maybe even an attempted murder charge - though he was a fucking dumbass), and what do they - and the rest of us who were in London - have to show for it? There is no militant student revolution, as the right wing press were screeching; the smashing of windows has not won over the general public (if anything it has alienated the vast chunks of it); it has not convinced the politicans to change their stance on tuition fees or any other issue, in fact it has made them more determined to appear unwilling to back down in the face of imaginary 'violence' and if anything played right into their hands. No, what has been achieved is that the Tory Party insurance policy may be a few quid higher next policy renual.

Sorry, but I struggle to see what was actually achieved. Don't get me wrong, it is good to see that people are pissed off and passionate, but that does not equate progress; in fact their actions were very ill-concieved in regards to furthering the cause that the protest was actually about; altering government policy on HE. That said I'm willing to change my mind, if there is something glaringly obvious and positive that I haven't taken from this then 'riot', please point it out

And no, I didn't go 'home early', I was in London, around Millbank, till late in the evening; and as reported what I saw with my own eyes doesn't reflect what we are being told by the press about this protest. To be fair, i did vanish to the pub for a few hours, but that was because there was indeed little actually happening beyond watching people attack windows, and that ceased being interesting viewing when I was about 13.
I met many people tonight who were in full support of the direct action, and violence. Except the fire extinguisher incident for obvious reasons.

[Matty_UK]

I met many people tonight who were in full support of the direct action, and violence. Except the fire extinguisher incident for obvious reasons.

Likewise. I think most people were probably against the direct action because of the way the media painted it, but a significant majority are in full support and every single person I've debated with has come round to supporting it in the end.

Invader Zim - I disagree that the attack on Millbank damaged the movement in anyway, and I think your best bet to serve the movement is to argue in support of it to people and to point out what was achieved by it. (see my previous post) People who are on our side will come round to support it if you put your points across well enough, and this way you help the movement. Going around criticising it to people achieves nothing but cementing the notion that it was a petulant action and is counter-productive.

[Steve_j]

The Fit watch website has just been shut down for “attempting to pervert the course of justice” for highlighting a sugested course of action for those that were at millbank

More infor here..

http://projectsheffield.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/httpfitwatch-org-uk-has-been-suspended/

[IndependentCitizen]

I can see where Invader Zim's coming from. I'm against such action myself, but I've met people who were in favour of what happened. I think it's far too early for this type of 'violence'. However more direct action needs to be taken, Sussex Uni's plotting something I hear, and they have a large left-wing scene.

[Manic Impressive]

Breaking news Sussex university have occupied the largest building on campus. Solidarity with the students of Sussex

So just got back from the Education Activist Network meeting here's my after action report.

Entering Kings college was a very strange experience for me as I was completely out of my natural environment. It is a very grand and auspicious building and being around so many posh people made me feel slightly uneasy. I soon started to feel better as the militancy exhibited by all present was made clear (except 1 there's always 1:rolleyes:) NUS president or w/e Aaron Porter did not show up so we did not get to here any excuses for his shameful words. The outcome of the meeting was always going to be dominated by the fairly obvious issues that have already happened for instance Aaron Porter, the media coverage, violence. The other issues that were raised were things like why we need to fight the cuts (like that isn't obvious) getting the students and workers and unemployed to work together (but no actual plan of how to do that) student unions and workers unions can easily coordinate their efforts as they will have existing ties but how do you get the ununionized and unemployed workers to coordinate if they have no existing structure for them to turn to? The meeting ended with a lone anarchist uprising as he could not follow the rules and wait for his turn to speak instead interrupting a lady mid sentence with cries of "enough of this Trotskyist bullshit" I would have actually liked to hear what he had to say but it was drowned out by a slow clap and boo's and hisses, apart from the bad ending the meeting was quite fun. There was some talk of revolution but in my opinion the best this movement can hope to achieve is to break the coalition and force a general election but I doubt it can bring down the system I hope I'm wrong :). The movement is still crucial as it will raise class conciousness and lay the ground work for the future.

I *****ed and moaned about not being informed about the demo on the 10th so it's only right that I finish by advertising some of the future protests in London.

20/11
Afghanistan time to go home
12 noon, Speakers corner Hyde park

23/11
Picket Nick Clegg
No to Tuition fees No to workfare
Kings place, Hall 190 York Way, London, N1 9GU T6PM

24th
2PM: Protest against Lib-Dems Lib-Dem HQ 4 Cowley streey, City of London although I'm sure I heard noon at Trafalgar square which is where i'll be if anyone wants to meet up.
6PM: Students & Workers unite meet at Lincoln's Inn Fields, march on Downing Street. So everyone from the South East now has no excuse not to be there. For those not in London or not a student and wondering how to get involved I would strongly suggest getting in touch with your nearest Uni's student union to find out what's going on in your area.

27/11

Coalition of resistance National conference
10am-5pm Camden Centre, London

[bricolage]

I'm not sure I get the idea of this Lib Dem protest, surely the idea with the walkouts was that they would take the issue from the big London protests to the locality of various Universities. This seems to just be pulling it back into the comfort ground of mass demos. Not sure, maybe...

[Manic Impressive]

The London Uni's are just doing things in their local area there are a few marches and demos which will meet up with trade unionists and other workers at 6. The local Uni's will be doing their own things like Sussex http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/8638287.University_of_Sussex_students_occupy_lectu re_theatre_following_protest_on_campus/

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/11/sussex-students-in-occupation.html

links via General Strike :D

[IndependentCitizen]

Ah, told you Sussex Uni is plotting something :D

[Manic Impressive]

I totally get your point but it's just one of those things about London it will usually get the headlines. If Lib-Dem HQ was in Sheffield I'm sure the students there would be marching on it. That's a Demo by Education Activist Network `other Uni reps were shouting out info about their demo's but it was getting very noisy by then with 1/2 the people trying to leave so I didn't really hear all the details also it doesn't help that I'm slightly deaf in one ear :p

[bricolage]

Woops I deleted my comment by mistake, this was it;

Yeah I think its good there is something at 6 but my point about the Lib Dem thing (which is at 2) is that it isnt localised and is at a 'big' location which means considering the media lately will probably just result in a massive police crackdown. But hey you never know, will have to see how it goes.

The other issue is of course with the targeting of Conservatives and now Lib Dems what strategies might be used to steer this away from simply leading to more support for the Labour Party? I mean there were Labour MPs on the demo last week ffs.

[Ravachol]

Jesus Christ, this wasn't the Battle of Cable Street. Your assumption that the movement against these cuts is any less impotent, after a few people smashed some windows and office furniture, than it was before speaks volumes of your utter detachment from reality.


The potency of a movement isn't measured at any singular moment. The potency of a movement manifests itself in being able to get done what it seeks to get done. What we ought to be looking for, however, is not mere potency but Revolutionary potency.

The assault on the Millbank tower is a clear break with the reformist, mind-numbing legalist blabbering of petty leftist bureacrats aspiring to be labour MPs and the petit-bourgeois 'citizen' attitude of those seeking to acknowledge the bourgeosie as somehow 'respectable political opponents'.

The breaking of the windows broke a lot more, it broke the normalcy of impotent protest. Marching again and again within the limits of manegeable and permitted 'protest' is marching within the area of impotency. Despite your unfounded claims it was a 'minority' (as if that somehow lends less ethical justification to their actions) or whatever, a plethora of evidence suggesting the contrary is available and there were many students there who haven't come into contact with any radical politics whatsoever.

Venting their anger directly and aptly at the opponent raises the bar for confrontation and draws the lines clearly. There is thus no more room for the would-be parlementarians to debate and discuss something that isn't a debate or discussion, it puts the matter out there: Take back the cuts or face the consequences.

Secondly, the acts produce new subjectivities amongst the participants. Engaging in these acts and seeing their peers engage in actions that are deemed 'off limits' by the State and it's bureaucratic allies in the movement produces a new collective experience that takes this kind of action and associated forms of action out of the sphere of taboo and into the permittable arsenal. It is a rip in the casual ethical tissue in the sense that it departs from what is 'accepted' and what is not and puts us into touch with our own power.

Apart from causing measurable, financial damage to the Torys and showing a taste of 'things to come', this is a form of re-arming oneself. A movement moving only within the boundaries of the permissable is a toothless lion, it has no offensive to hold up against the offensive of the hostile class.





As for my ability to tutor I am actually teaching a course to undergraduate students, who clearly know far more than you do, a course on radicalism.
Suffice to say both I, and they, recognise that violent protest can be a double edged sword and its successful application is determined by the circumstances in which it is employed - as is the application of any tactic in protest. If I didn't know that then you might have a point about my fitness to teach. But that is why I do teach and you don't. Jog on.


Tactics should be employed only when fit, obviously. The point was that these tacts have been applied at a correct moment. If we are to listen to the bourgeois lackeys over at the Daily Mail, Telegraph and the NUS bureaucrats we have been defeated already.



And you think it won't be? My guess is that every second cop in London is going to be there on the 24th and a shit load of people are going to be kettled.


So this will require an adaption in tactics. If repression is an excuse to limit our arsenal, it means we have already lost before the battle has even begun.



If you think that this protest has resulted in growing anti-capitalist sentiment, even among those at the protest then you are engaged in pure fantasy. If anything the reverse is true, i spent six hours returning home on a bus full students dejected pretty much the entire British press had just labeled them as hooligans and discounted their cause in front of the entire British public, because a few people had smashed a few of windows. You think most of those people are going to return to London ina couple of weeks time? I don't.


And I've heard many different reports. The point is there will always be nay-sayers, aspiring 'citizens' and others with whom resistance just doesn't resonate. Timing and circumstances regarding these actions are crucial, but a full exclusion of them from one's arsenal or letting the time of their use be determined by the media or whatever is just tying our own hands.



And what of those who, having turned upto the protest on the 10th to find themselves stereotyped as violent hooligans, decide not to bother going to any more protests on the issue? My guess, based on having to sit with a bus load of them hundreds of miles home, is that there will be a lot more of those tired and dejected people than there were leaving Millbank with a new radical outlook.

The point is that the media will always try to paint a negative picture of opposition, letting oneself be guided by it is letting oneself be guided by bourgeois discours. The only pretty pictures painted in the media are those of impotent resistance, the type that is no resistance anyway.

The entire point of resistance is departing with a full arsenal, since THEY will do the same. Acts that break the mask of 'normality' in a mass-fashion tend to produce the altered subjectivities that lay the groundwork, the possibility for an exodus from this shit we're in.

[Palingenisis]

The point is that the media will always try to paint a negative picture of opposition, letting oneself be guided by it is letting oneself be guided by bourgeois discours. The only pretty pictures painted in the media are those of impotent resistance, the type that is no resistance anyway.

The entire point of resistance is departing with a full arsenal, since THEY will do the same. Acts that break the mask of 'normality' in a mass-fashion tend to produce the altered subjectivities that lay the groundwork, the possibility for an exodus from this shit we're in.

Good post....Id just like to add that journalists are in general the worst type of sleazy pig who are up there with prison screws in my opinion. Most of them just type out police reports or what the authorities feed them making no attempt to investigate usually adding in some hysteria of their own.

Anyway all the "normal" people I have talked to about these events or overheard all thought good on the students who did it. Most people realize that sometimes there is a need for a bit of smashy smashy to get your point across.

[human strike]

They say 30-40 unis will be taking action next week. Should be huge if that estimate's right.

[The Grey Blur]

idunno. i think the sussex occupation could be premature. sussex is not the average campus and is chock full of anarchists, swp and some socialist party activists on the faculty and as students there. it has a reputation as a far-left university from the 60s onwards - they've frequently gone into occupation including over gaza and cuts that were threatened there last year. there is a heightened consciousness there no doubt but it also means they're totally out of touch with the wider student mood. i have seen some of their activists come to my university in the much more conservative kent and just sound utterly ridiculous in that context (that's more just a failure of rhetoric and awareness really but it was the swp what do you expect, rah rah fight the power without ever taking the wider mood/context into account)...in my opinion the battle isn't to get the minority of radicalised students into occupation but to further radicalise the mass of the student body. if these occupations run out of steam quickly then that will damage the tactic as well as sap momentum from the wider struggle. along with sussex you will definitely see manchester and glasgow go into occupation. then again at the moment i'm in france so perhaps i'm the one out of touch with the mood in britain.

here's hoping i am wrong.

[Manic Impressive]

I don't think getting the rest of the student population radicalised is enough but they will help inspire the workers and unemployed and those are the people we need to defeat the cuts and the government without them it's futile. Most workers even those who consider themselves on the left will not turn up until they realize the seriousness of the situation. However, I don't think the inspiration from the student movement is enough. How do you connect with the ununionized workers and unemployed?

Anyone know what the other parties are doing? Saying what the SWP is doing isn't enough is correct but I don't know any other group doing anything.

These guys were at the meeting as well http://www.workerspower.com/

[The Grey Blur]

there are a million and one groups on the british left, i couldn't be bothered to describe them all but suffice to say whatever your flavour of leftism you will find something to join. i'm not attacking the swp out of a sectarian need to score points, their organisation in the south coast of england, those organised in the unis anyway, are piss poor politically/theoretically/tactically/rhetorically. one once threatened to punch me because i openly criticised them. the one guy who came from brighton and spoke at my uni mirrored his local colleagues in that they have no ability to gauge their audience and tailor their rhetoric - it is all 'rah rah fight the power' without tact or depth. at a conservative uni like mine he sounded ridiculous and to me that was the greatest arrogance, the insistence that 'sussex is the model to follow' even though it's a completely different situation. there is just no thought going into it. i had similar experiences around their uaf front where it was all talk of 'smashing the edl' then we sat in the rain listening to vicars and i had swp members tell me union members are full of racist bnp-sympathizers (yes, really :rolleyes:). so while i have no organisational axe of my own to grind, i will frequently and happily criticise the swp or at least my experience of them.

organising the mass of students is the priority. the analogy isn't perfect but can be drawn similar to that of the workers - you bring the best of the workers into the mass movement and offer leadership, you don't seperate yourselves through left adventurism. which is sadly what i think all these occuptions will result in. like i said though, i'm not too familiar with the current mood on the ground, maybe after the millbank occupation everyone is waving their red books and quoting bordiga, somehow i doubt it.

[Manic Impressive]

I get the impression that the students are organizing quite well already, unsurprisingly I've heard nothing of Kent but many seem really up for the 24th although my impression is probably biased as I'm not a student and the only ones I know or have met are already militant leftists. I'm well aware of the abundance of small ideologically driven left parties here but the only ones I've seen out on the streets are the SWP they're certainly the most vocal. I've seen a few CPGB members on this forum just wondering what they're up to. This ain't the time to be watching and criticizing each other it's the time to work together (that's a dig at them not you)

I disagree that the students are the main priority, they started it but they need the general public to come out if it is to be successful. As for left adventurism I think your spot on but I think it can be a good thing some of the theory will rub off on them and a few will stick with it. Like I said before this won't end in revolution but it could lay the ground work for the future depending on the outcome.

[human strike]

Students are generally not so much concerned with acting to stop cuts elsewhere as saving their own university educations from corporate domination and becoming a privilege for the rich. In many ways this fight is happening 20 years too late. In other ways it still hasn't really begun.

Talking about spreading student activism to the wider struggle is good and all, but students, as well as university staff, are up against a hard fight as it is, and not an unimportant one by any stretch of the imagination.

The fact that students are in open opposition to the government does however provide an opportunity for more generalised action against cuts, I feel.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I agree with blur in terms of needing to tailor the message. It is an absolute stereotype to portray all students (or in general) as liberal/left-wing types. There is as broad an opinion range amongst university students as there is amongst the entire population, although it could be said that the current generation of students contains far less from the extreme right and the old Tory right - less racism, homophobia etc.

However, i'd say that, contrary to what Grey Blur says, our aim should be to expand this movement from a student-led one focused on education cuts and tuition fees, to one that encompasses all types of worker groups and campaigns on issues other than, and also including, the education situation. To this end, one could say that although it would be no bad thing to have the wider student movement involved with us, the simple fact is that there are wealthy students and students whose views will always be abhorrent to us. We need students who are capable of becoming class conscious to do so, and for the entire working class' consciousness to also heighten. Only then can we provide effective and, most importantly, sustained opposition to this radically heinous government and the ruling class that it encompasses.

[Invader Zim]

The potency of a movement isn't measured at any singular moment. [...] The assault on the Millbank tower is a clear break with the reformist, mind-numbing legalist blabbering of petty leftist bureacrats aspiring to be labour MPs and the petit-bourgeois 'citizen' attitude of those seeking to acknowledge the bourgeosie as somehow 'respectable political opponents'.

Yet this is precisely the argument that you, and other are making. You claim, that after this moment this movement has ceased being, at least as, impotent. And the reasons provided, in explaination, thus far do not tally with my observations of the events in question. That doesn't mean you are wrong, just that I have some doubt and fear; that is all.

Which brings me to the second half of the passage I have quoted. Since when has violence or property damage at protests, by students, been something new which makes Millbank "a clear break" from the existing pattern? I suggest that it isn't at all; my own university campus, for example, is littered, if one chooses to look, with the residue of student attacks on the institution made during protests. If Millbank is special, it is because of the symbolic value of the institution targetted and the scale of attention it has recieved. Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, perhaps this will expand into more. I hope it does.


Despite your unfounded claims it was a 'minority' (as if that somehow lends less ethical justification to their actions) or whatever, a plethora of evidence suggesting the contrary is available and there were many students there who haven't come into contact with any radical politics whatsoever.

How would you know whether my "claims" are "unfounded", were you there standing outside Millbank Tower watching events? Because I was, and that makes what you describe as "unfounded claims" actually "observations" in fact firmly founded on the evidence of my own eyes. And I saw a small number of people, of a very large crowd, attacking the windows. How many people who broke into the building and occupied it I don't know, by that time I assume had gone to the pub because I didn't see it. But the reports made at the time that it was about 200, which given the atmosphere outside the building when I was there, seems about right and no images or footage from inside the building, that I have seen, suggest that this figure is massively out. Again, I may be wrong, I don't claim to have been there the entire time and nor having been able to see everything that occured as it occured in 20/20. What i have is my impressions, but unless you were there that is still a lot more than you unless you were there too.

And it isn't about 'ethical justification' (and the fact that you think that is my argument proves that you don't grasp my point at all), but whether the attack on Millbank Tower is representative and thus, as you assume, a sign of things to come or a flash in the pan.



Secondly, the acts produce new subjectivities amongst the participants. Engaging in these acts and seeing their peers engage in actions that are deemed 'off limits' by the State and it's bureaucratic allies in the movement produces a new collective experience that takes this kind of action and associated forms of action out of the sphere of taboo and into the permittable arsenal. It is a rip in the casual ethical tissue in the sense that it departs from what is 'accepted' and what is not and puts us into touch with our own power.

This is based on the assumption that people actually took that from the protest. Now, naturally the number of people I spoke to is limited, but the impression I got after the even suggests that the message people took from the event is a million miles away from what you suggest they will have taken. I also don't think we will see a repeat of Millbank Tower, because as noted, the cops will be out in force next time there is a student demo. They weren't on the 10th and that is why those few who were there had to sit by and watch the building being attacked. It was only later, and again i saw this with my own eyes, that dozens of riot vans loaded with cops turned up. There were so many of them that they closed an entire side streets, and riot vans were parked all the way along them. (London's traffic was absolutely jammed because of it) Next time there is a protest they will be there before the event begins, not turn up in time to close the stable door after the horse has bolted.


The point was that these tacts have been applied at a correct moment. If we are to listen to the bourgeois lackeys over at the Daily Mail, Telegraph and the NUS bureaucrats we have been defeated already.

Well the validity of this assertion entirely depends on what happens in the near future. I for one cannot read the future, which is why my entire point here is about what I worry may happen.


So this will require an adaption in tactics. If repression is an excuse to limit our arsenal, it means we have already lost before the battle has even begun.

I'm not providing an 'excuse' for anything, rather stating what I suspect may happen.


Timing and circumstances regarding these actions are crucial, but a full exclusion of them from one's arsenal or letting the time of their use be determined by the media or whatever is just tying our own hands.

I don't disagree; and i challenge you to find one comment in this thread where I have. Indeed, I think you are proffering an argument to a point that nobody has actually made.


And you prove it with every whine, whimper, and blowing of your nose about how violence doesn't accomplish anything

The fact that you contend that I am opposed to violent protest (when i have repeatedly, and explicity, stated the precise opposite in this thread) quite frankly dictates that you are either a liar or a blithering idiot who hasn't grasped a single thing I have said in this thread. Which is it?

[Invader Zim]

I think your impression of the attack on Millbank has been influenced a lot by the coach you happened to be on - on the coach I was on, (containing only 5 regular activists) the mood was one of exhilaration and enthusiasm, and people felt empowered, thinking if it was that easy to smash Tory HQ, then what can't we do? I'm at Manchester University and prior to the demo the anti-cuts meetings were stale and uneventful, struggling to get anyone other than SWSS members and a few people from the Union Exec to come along, whereas today we had an enormous meeting where we had to move into the cafe (a very large room which nobody ever really uses) because none of the meeting rooms could hold us. Plus, only a few hours after we trashed Millbank, about 100 people (60 or so inside, a crowd of about 40 latecomers outside - and this is literally about 10 times the amount of people who normally turn up to anti-cuts meetings!) were involved in occupying the finance offices with no prior planning or organisation, fuelled entirely by post-demo enthusiasm. This wouldn't have happened if we had a typical tedious protest, the sort where the most frequently heard comments afterwards are complaints that it won't have changed anything, and frequently a feeling of hopelessness and frustration. Whether the majority of the public disagreed with our tactics or not doesn't really matter to be honest - it won't influence public opinion to leaning in favour of the cuts one jot. Aside from people who are tories anyway, every single critical comment has been along the lines of "what a shame a worthwhile protest got tainted by a minority of idiots."

However, the effect that I have noticed is the people who approved of it, minority or not, are now getting involved in political activities at the university. I doubt a single person has decided to support the cuts out of disgust with our behaviour, so there hasn't really been damage done, but as the action did inspire people to join the movement and did set a precedent for how serious the day of action of the 24th will be and how seriously it will be taken, I think we've had a net gain.

Also, it has to be said I've heard far more people criticising the action because it will allegedly alienate support than I've heard people criticising it because they actually give a shit Tory HQ got smashed up.

Cheers for the post, it makes really encouraging reading.

[bricolage]

Solidarity from French CNT; http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5206/flyergb1.jpg

The picture is really big and stretches the screen so I won't embed it.

[bricolage]

idunno. i think the sussex occupation could be premature. sussex is not the average campus...
Yes you are right, Sussex not only has a large number of, for want of a better word, 'radical' students but an already existing and strong anti-cuts movement and a recent history of occupations.

Even if we look at the last time they occupied (http://defendsussex.wordpress.com/2010/03/11/students-defy-injunction-to-occupy-lecture-theatre/) there were 300 of them, this time 200.

[S.Artesian]

The fact that you contend that I am opposed to violent protest (when i have repeatedly, and explicity, stated the precise opposite in this thread) quite frankly dictates that you are either a liar or a blithering idiot who hasn't grasped a single thing I have said in this thread. Which is it?

Neither. Clearly I was referring to the topic of this thread, moron, the recent student demonstrations in London that trashed the Tory HQ-- the act you find so counterproductive.

You're either deliberately disingenuous or thicker than the brick tossed through the front door during a student demonstration. Which is it?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Artesian and Invader Zim - let's not get into opposition with each other over a difference of tactics. After all, the real enemy, and the only enemy that we should have, is the class enemy that is enacting its outrageous educations cuts policy through the government of Cameron, Clegg, Osbourne et al.

If you guys can't agree exactly on the course of action that has already been taken, then at least try and find some common ground over a future course, rather than stoking up needless division at a time when we are either united or dead, quite frankly.

[Palingenisis]

Artesian and Invader Zim - let's not get into opposition with each other over a difference of tactics. After all, the real enemy, and the only enemy that we should have, is the class enemy that is enacting its outrageous educations cuts policy through the government of Cameron, Clegg, Osbourne et al.

If you guys can't agree exactly on the course of action that has already been taken, then at least try and find some common ground over a future course, rather than stoking up needless division at a time when we are either united or dead, quite frankly.

No this is important....There is a "leftist" there to lecture, condemn and even rat to the cops anyone who throws a brick or otherwise breaks the law always. Usually they are the ones with the most invested in this system. Remember how Kautasky turned on the Russian revolution?

Also the issue of how our struggles should relate to the "media" is important.

[S.Artesian]

Artesian and Invader Zim - let's not get into opposition with each other over a difference of tactics. After all, the real enemy, and the only enemy that we should have, is the class enemy that is enacting its outrageous educations cuts policy through the government of Cameron, Clegg, Osbourne et al.

If you guys can't agree exactly on the course of action that has already been taken, then at least try and find some common ground over a future course, rather than stoking up needless division at a time when we are either united or dead, quite frankly.

My only point in all this is to counter the hand-wringing that goes on when demonstrations get aggressive, and in particular, the hand-wringing over this demonstration's relatively mild aggression.

Those who acted out their anger did no harm to the movement or the prospects for future struggles.

Sure violence is a tactic, and can be used when the situation calls for it, and everybody says that, particularly those who criticize every single aggressive act. Every time some violence occurs, and doesn't miraculously achieve state power with one swift kick, we are treated to the moaning about "public opinion" "excuse for repression" "alienation of the great mass of undecided" as if somehow those are the real issues.

They are not real issues. Those are distractions. Struggles are messy. Neatness counts in grade school, but not so much in history. These things happen. You know how this stops being an isolated display of anger? when it is organized into a program for total transformation; when millions display the same anger at the same time in a precise and disciplined manner. In short when the example of the students at Tory HQ is embraced, converted into a mass struggle, not decried and excluded.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Fair enough. I agree with the nub of your point, but we also need to tailor our rhetoric and reaction according to our audience.

We aren't going to persuade formerly centrist students, for example, to join our movement by saying 'we love violence etc.'

Put simply, whilst I support what happened at Millbank, I don't think we should glorify or make a hero-story out of the violence, all the while we should of course condone it as a natural reaction of the oppressed to a vicious government policy of cuts.

[Ravachol]

Which brings me to the second half of the passage I have quoted. Since when has violence or property damage at protests, by students, been something new which makes Millbank "a clear break" from the existing pattern?


It doesn't have to be 'something new' (although the participation of regular students outside of the radical milieu is sadly something unusual) in order to be a 'break'.

It is a 'break' with the casual logic of:

- I have grievances
- Therefore I go to this or that representative, reformist structure
- We march the march, talk the talk, hold a placard, distribute a leaflet and let Aaron Porter shit all over us and achieve fuck all.

It is an ethical break. As I've said, it brings physical confrontation back into the realm of available tactics again as well as raising the bar for confrontation.



How many people who broke into the building and occupied it I don't know


That's the only thing that matters, the number of people taking sides with the 'windowbreakers', so to say, thus contributing to ethical polarisation. It hardly matters if one or a thousand people broke the windows, what matters is what followed and the situation it created.



And it isn't about 'ethical justification' (and the fact that you think that is my argument proves that you don't grasp my point at all), but whether the attack on Millbank Tower is representative and thus, as you assume, a sign of things to come or a flash in the pan.


I never said it's a 'sign of things to come'. I said that the act in itself, even if isolated, it what it is: namely a break with the legalist passivity and spectaclism of reformist marches. It presents a moment of ethical polarisation and if timed well (which is always something to consider), such a thing can influence the militancy of a movement greatly.



I also don't think we will see a repeat of Millbank Tower, because as noted, the cops will be out in force next time there is a student demo. They weren't on the 10th and that is why those few who were there had to sit by and watch the building being attacked. It was only later, and again i saw this with my own eyes, that dozens of riot vans loaded with cops turned up. There were so many of them that they closed an entire side streets, and riot vans were parked all the way along them. (London's traffic was absolutely jammed because of it) Next time there is a protest they will be there before the event begins, not turn up in time to close the stable door after the horse has bolted.


There doesn't have to be a repeat of the Millbank tower, there only has to be a repeat of actions in it's spirit and according to the same logic of confrontation and rejection of compromise and passivity. The implementation doesn't matter.

[S.Artesian]

Fair enough. I agree with the nub of your point, but we also need to tailor our rhetoric and reaction according to our audience.

We aren't going to persuade formerly centrist students, for example, to join our movement by saying 'we love violence etc.'

Put simply, whilst I support what happened at Millbank, I don't think we should glorify or make a hero-story out of the violence, all the while we should of course condone it as a natural reaction of the oppressed to a vicious government policy of cuts.

I agree.

[The Grey Blur]

However, i'd say that, contrary to what Grey Blur says, our aim should be to expand this movement from a student-led one focused on education cuts and tuition fees,
that's not what i intended to suggest. obviously the goal is to involve the student movement in the wider anti-cuts and anti-capitalist movement, i don't see a short-lived wave of occupations as very useful towards that goal. in fact, that was my point - student radicals should be working inside and outside the nus to radicalise the mass of students which by definition would mean introducing motions to support lecturers and support staff on their campuses who go on strike, suggest linking up formally with workers trade unions etcetcetc.

sussex going into occupation then once they're booted out again by the cops, being touted by anarchists and swp on the rest of campuses which are much more conservative in mood as 'the example to follow' is such a shit tactic and just comes across as ridiculous, parochial, and totally out of touch. it allows for those left arguments to become a cliché and much easier to be dismissed.

[Invader Zim]

Neither. Clearly I was referring to the topic of this thread, moron, the recent student demonstrations in London that trashed the Tory HQ-- the act you find so counterproductive.

You're either deliberately disingenuous or thicker than the brick tossed through the front door during a student demonstration. Which is it?


No, you stated, and I quote:

"you prove it with every whine, whimper, and blowing of your nose about how violence doesn't accomplish anything"

Show where I stated "violence doesn't accomplish anything", if you can't you are indeed a liar, an idiot, or more probably an unhealthy combination of the two.

[S.Artesian]

No, you stated, and I quote:

"you prove it with every whine, whimper, and blowing of your nose about how violence doesn't accomplish anything"

Show where I stated "violence doesn't accomplish anything", if you can't you are indeed a liar, an idiot, or more probably an unhealthy combination of the two.


OK-- let's start, and waste everybody's time:

Here's how it starts:

You state the following [taken from your first couple of posts]:


The public support for the student cause has, I think, been badly damaged by the violence, which has been massively overstated by the media, especially the right wing press. And now the tory scum can safely igore the issue and indeed the protest by reducing the entire issue, and their opponents, as violent, spoiled and childish teenagers who, along with their grievences, are to be ignored. Indeed, this fear of mine is already being born out by the responces not only of the press but of the politicans and elements of the public.

There is no militant student revolution, as the right wing press were screeching; the smashing of windows has not won over the general public (if anything it has alienated the vast chunks of it); it has not convinced the politicans to change their stance on tuition fees or any other issue, in fact it has made them more determined to appear unwilling to back down in the face of imaginary 'violence' and if anything played right into their hands. No, what has been achieved is that the Tory Party insurance policy may be a few quid higher next policy renual.

Sorry, but I struggle to see what was actually achieved. Don't get me wrong, it is good to see that people are pissed off and passionate, but that does not equate progress; in fact their actions were very ill-concieved in regards to furthering the cause that the protest was actually about; altering government policy on HE. That said I'm willing to change my mind, if there is something glaringly obvious and positive that I haven't taken from this then 'riot', please point it out

You are confused; I'm not remotely bothered by the trashing of the Tory Party offices, in of it self. What does concern me is whether this actually achieved anything tangible (and you conceed that it didn't) and whether it handed ammunition to the rightwing politicans and press who dominate the discourse on this topic, when there is no obvious political gain for doing so. Indeed, the only thing this has achieved is getting the protest on the front page of just about every newspaper in the country; but I don't buy into the notion that any publicity is good publicity. And unlike the vast majority of people posting on this thread, I actually have a lot personaly riding, and imminently, on the success of this campaign; so I actually worry if people have inadvertently given the press and politicans the ammunition to paint us all in a negative light.


True, it is certainly the case that this may be possible that this builds into something beyond its current state, which is largely confised to students and student issues. Howver, I'm dubious that it will, and I'm also dubious that the allegedly violent element of this protest (which I maintain has been hyped well beyond what it actually was, at least from what I saw when i was there, by the press) has not set back the opposition to the proposal by burning vital currency with the wider British public who we desperately need to stand with us against the Tory machinations.

But I'm a dower bastard and typically see the worst in situations. So I hope you're right, and I'm wrong; and will be in London again on the 24th.

I replied with these:



Every time demonstrators, protests, move beyond passive resistance, beyond simple statements of protest, we get the above catechism. So when African-Americans took a bit of organized exception to getting beaten by police in Watts, or Detroit, or New York... you get the old "what trees do they plant?" routine. And you get the "giving the police, the state, the right wing an excuse to crackdown" mantra. And mantra those both are, meaningless statements that when repeated over and over is supposed to give comfort to the utterer.....

Those who respond to the violence by kicking in the doors of the Tory headquarters are our allies. You don't think kicking in the doors is revolutionary? Nobody thinks it's revolutionary. But this ridiculous hand-wringing about what it accomplishes, the threat of reaction, and "turning people off" is just so much baloney, and an evasion of actually developing that organization and that comprehensive opposition that will make the struggle more powerful......


Progressive political gains achieved by actually smashing some windows? None. Progressive political gains achieved by smashing all the windows of the government? Priceless. I'm speaking metaphorically, of course.. But why, if your concern is how vicious the government assaults are, single out the relatively insignificant defensive violence of those being attacked? Why judge that against a standard of immediate progressive political gains, when there have been exactly ZERO progressive political gains in the UK since Heath was turned out of office?



and this:


I'm not making any assumptions about your personal position on violence. I am pointing out how this, these complaints about handing the right, the media, the state [pick one or all] an "excuse" are always made by those claiming to be in unique positions to really understand the importance of the issues. Yeah, right.

In the immortal words of James Connolly-- "All hail the mob, the incarnation of progress."

I don't have the slightest worry about "how the protests look to Mr. and Mrs. Public," what the media says about them, what the government does. The media is going to say what it says no matter what occurs, violence, no violence. They're paid to say that.

As for Mr. and Mrs. Public, Mr. and Mrs. Public don't exist. They are creations-- fetishes put up to obscure the real relations of class-- if the protests rip that veil away and polarize the discussion between those who think the violence of the protesters is, if anything, restrained, and those who think the violence of the state in preserving the banks is justified, then all the better.


I included in this that I didn't buy your claim to being in a unique position, which is the remark that I think really frosted your ass, enough to make you spout about teenagers and armchair commentators, when I'm neither, and haven't been one for many many years.

You then came up with this gem:


If you think that this protest has resulted in growing anti-capitalist sentiment, even among those at the protest then you are engaged in pure fantasy. If anything the reverse is true, i spent six hours returning home on a bus full students dejected pretty much the entire British press had just labeled them as hooligans and discounted their cause in front of the entire British public, because a few people had smashed a few of windows. You think most of those people are going to return to London ina couple of weeks time? I don't.

What I think is that this protest is the product, not the producer of growing anti-austerity sentiment, and since austerity is at its core capital's recovery program, the task is to link the anti-austerity anger to an anti-capitalist plan of action. You don't get that link wringing your hands about how damaging kicking in the Tory HQ doors is to the struggle.

So you sound like you're whimpering and nose-blowing to me, and I had already stated how I didn't care about your position on violence per se. Not in the later post, not in the first post.

What matters is that this type of, your, reaction against the violence as being counterproductive "at this time" "at this point in the movement" for "these reasons-- repression, media, public opinion" is ALWAYS expressed by some no matter at what time at what point it occurs.

So I'm not lying, and the readers can judge who the idiot is. I'm not worried about that.

You however are a whimpering hand-wringing self-righteous prig. And I mean that with my sincere best wishes for your future endeavors.

[IndependentCitizen]

Yes you are right, Sussex not only has a large number of, for want of a better word, 'radical' students but an already existing and strong anti-cuts movement and a recent history of occupations.

Even if we look at the last time they occupied (http://defendsussex.wordpress.com/2010/03/11/students-defy-injunction-to-occupy-lecture-theatre/) there were 300 of them, this time 200.

It's not just the students who are radical, quite a few of the teachers are too. I know a few of them, and they're all sympathetic with the group.

I was talking to my local branch of the Socialist Party who are helping organise an anti-cuts march on the 24th, and the Police were incredibly supportive, and helpful with organising the march. They're making us march through the centre of town, which of course will include churchill square. So we'll have major exposure, and won't be tucked under the carpet like some marches are.

[human strike]

http://backdoorbroadcasting.net/2010/11/slavoj-zizek-violence-revisited/

Zizek on the protests.

[Sasha]

edit; wrong thread