Constitution of the Republic of Cuba

[Che a chara]

I've just had a read through it and I must say that it is one of the most beautiful things ever written down on paper. What i'd like to know is which parts are not upheld by the state and not implemented in Cuban society ?

http://www.embacubalebanon.com/constite.html

It's a long bastard i know, but what main parts are not upheld would anyone know ?

[Bud Struggle]

I agree with you. I don't know what is for "real" and what isn't, but in theory--they did a pretty good job.

[Robert]

I have a problem with this:

ARTICLE 5. The Communist Party of Cuba, a follower of Martí’s ideas and of Marxism-Leninism, and the organized vanguard of the Cuban nation, is the highest leading force of society and of the state, which organizes and guides the common effort toward the goals of the construction of socialism and the progress toward a communist society ....


Move down to Cuba and start yourself a nice little competing party ... make it "The People's Revolutionary Party" or "The Socialist Labor Party", based on Marxism as you interpret it. Will that work?


You can do that kind of thing in the USA.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Socialists_of_America

[Fulanito de Tal]

Move down to Cuba and start yourself a nice little competing party ... make it "The People's Revolutionary Party" or "The Socialist Labor Party", based on Marxism as you interpret it. Will that work?


You can do that kind of thing in the USA.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Socialists_of_America


lol. Then why don't we have any Communist politicians?

[ComradeMan]

lol. Then why don't we have any Communist politicians?

Don't know about the US- but perhaps because no one voted for them?

[Bud Struggle]

lol. Then why don't we have any Communist politicians?

There are plenty. They just don't get elected mostly but, Bernie Sanders is a Socialist Senator.

Now why they don't get elected? That's another story.

[ComradeMan]

There are plenty. They just don't get elected.

Now why they don't get elected? That's another story.

Well they more or less collapsed in Italy. Some of the things down to their own fault too in my opinion.

[Robert]

lol. Then why don't we have any Communist politicians?

Because George W. Bush instructed the CIA to murder them all.

[ComradeMan]

Because George W. Bush instructed the CIA to murder them all.

That's not funny. An Italian Prime Minister was kidnapped and murdered and there is the suspicion that other forces were at work.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Liberalism in its true form , on fire

[Bud Struggle]

Well they more or less collapsed in Italy.

As they always will everywhere. By their own admission Communist will never get "elected" into running the world.

That's why there has to be a Revolution. Power has to be taken by force--the problem is that up to now when Communist have taken power in the name of the people they have been very reluctant to actually give it to them.

That has been the main trouble with Communism in real life.

[Robert]

An Italian Prime Minister was kidnapped and murdered and there is the suspicion that other forces were at work.I apologize. And I hope the CIA was not behind it.

I continue to believe that there is more political freedom in the USA than there is in Cuba. The Cubans consecrate the Communist Party in their constitution; we consecrate freedom of speech and freedom of association in ours.

[Revolution starts with U]

No, you are correct. The US allows a lot of political expression.... for american's. Go ask someone in Nicaragua just how much political expression the US allows them.
American's gain freedom by oppressing those too powerless to defend themselves.

[ComradeMan]

I apologize. And I hope the CIA was not behind it.

I continue to believe that there is more political freedom in the USA than there is in Cuba. The Cubans consecrate the Communist Party in their constitution; we consecrate freedom of speech and freedom of association in ours.

It wasn't aimed at you- but some things you shouldn't joke about.

For the rest: Look up Operation Gladio- Operazione Gladio and look up Brigate Rosse/Red Brigades.

As for America, well I'm not into this culture of when in doubt, blame it on America all the time. Everyone wants to drink Coke and drive a Cadillac and then they blame "America". I think America's freedom of speech for example is one very positive achievement. I am not saying that there are areas of US policy and socio-economics that do not disgust me either on a moral basis, but hell- someone just told me that morality is bourgeois? :confused:

[Fulanito de Tal]

I apologize. And I hope the CIA was not behind it.

I continue to believe that there is more political freedom in the USA than there is in Cuba. The Cubans consecrate the Communist Party in their constitution; we consecrate freedom of speech and freedom of association in ours.

How do you know this? What do you know about elections in Cuba? Have you ever been to a Committee during elections? If not, all you know is what the bourgeois media wants you to know.

There is NO political freedom in the US. I can say fuck capitalism, fuck Obama, and fuck the supreme court. Afterwards, I'm going to have to buy something to eat from the "free" market. As a follower of socialist/communist ideas, if I want to practice my politics, there would be serious consequences.


Poverty
-sharing what I have with others
-not working under a capitalist mode

Loss of credit
-not paying utilities

Homelessness
-not paying rent

Imprisonment
-trespassing
-stealing
-not paying taxes

Death
-Hunger due to poverty
-Lack of access to physical and mental healthcare
-Getting HIV in jail
-Suicide from depression
-killed by FBI, CIA, or Police



We can believe we have political freedom, but only if we believe in capitalism. Otherwise, you're just talking shit.

[Bud Struggle]

How do you know this? What do you know about elections in Cuba? Have you ever been to a Committee during elections? If not, all you know is what the bourgeois media wants you to know.

Well I have been to Cuba a couple of times (though not in the last 10 years,) and I don't think anyone would consider it a politically free society if by that you meant you can have different points of view from the government.

I don't think Cuba is any more repressed than the average Central American dictatorship, but I certainly don't think the people there are completely free to speak their minds on any political subject they wish without some reprocussion.

As far as the rest of your post goes--you couldn't have written that in Cuba about Cuba.

Hey I live in Florida, too!

[Fulanito de Tal]

^ You could have different points of view from the government in Cuba. You could also get on a corner and yell, "Abajo con el socialismo! Y me encanta la pinga negra!" (Down with socialism and I love black dick!" I know because I saw someone (a male) yell that, along with many other things, near the corner of Infanta and San Lazaro.

In fact, I have had many conversations with people that disagree with the government and those conversations have been in public. A recent topic is the use of letting people brand their product. There are those for it and those against it. Another issue is the having Raul Castro as president. Some people told me that the people love Fidel, but that Raul got his position because he's Fidel's brother and not because he was elected...and those people told me that at a normal volume and tone walking down Monte near the Capitolio in La Habana.

In an earlier post, I told the story about how my dad when to a guarapera to get sugar cane juice and the juice served was old. My dad asked him to give everyone fresh juice and the worker said that people in Cuba will get fresh sugar cane juice when there is capitalism. If my dad gave him 2 pesos instead of the regular price of 1 peso, my dad would get fresh juice. This guy was with holding services to promote a political ideology! That is not the lack of political freedom in Cuba that I gather from your posts.

What is illegal is to be paid to go against the government. I cannot start a Free Cuba Fund in the US and pay Cubans to oppose the government. The Cubans that participate will be put in jail like those clowns on a hunger strike earlier this year. That is not political oppression. That is protecting the Cuban population from being deceived by exterior, more rich forces whose only intent is to topple the government for their own personal gain.

[Bud Struggle]

^^^^I don't disagree with any of that. As I said, it's about the same everywhere in Central America.

[ComradeMan]

Could "RevCapitalism" exist in Cuba?

America allows sites like RevLeft to exist in which people openly call for revolution and destruction of capitalism etc... not saying that's a bad thing- but in a lot of countries sites like this would be shut down very quickly.

I don't think you can deny that Freedom of Speech and Political Expression are well safeguarded in the US constitution in a way in which many other countries are behind.

[gorillafuck]

As they always will everywhere. By their own admission Communist will never get "elected" into running the world.
There have been communists elected. Not in the US, but all over other parts of the world.

Problem is, that doesn't fly with capitalist powers. Because people shouldn't be allowed to elect communists in capitalist democracies. 'Cause freedom.


The Cubans consecrate the Communist Party in their constitution; we consecrate freedom of speech and freedom of association in ours.
Have you heard of cointelpro?

[Bud Struggle]

There have been communists elected. Not in the US, but all over other parts of the world. Yea your right. There have been Communist elected here and there--but not enough to change the system to a Communist one. The Communists exist as onzies twozies in a Capitalist system.


Problem is, that doesn't fly with capitalist powers. Because people shouldn't be allowed to elect communists in capitalist democracies. 'Cause freedom. That's how it goes--no Reaganite Republicans were able to run for office in the Soviet Union either.



Have you heard of cointelpro? That's big time politics.

[Fulanito de Tal]

Could "RevCapitalism" exist in Cuba?

America allows sites like RevLeft to exist in which people openly call for revolution and destruction of capitalism etc... not saying that's a bad thing- but in a lot of countries sites like this would be shut down very quickly.

I don't think you can deny that Freedom of Speech and Political Expression are well safeguarded in the US constitution in a way in which many other countries are behind.

There isn't internet access in Cuba like there is here, so there could be no RevCapitalist. I don't want to speculate what would happen if internet was readily accessible in Cuba because I'm not that good at speculating and there are way to many variables to consider when predicting something like that.

I agree that I could say almost whatever I want in the US. However, but what good does it do? What results from me standing at the corner of SW 8th Ave and 107th St. in Miami with a Che poster that says, "Hasta la victoria siempre!" That has no impact on the political frame we live in, not to mention that my life would be in danger. We are at the mercy of what the media brainwashes the people to think. How many people seriously think that 9/11 happened because Muslims hate freedom? I can talk to all the people I want, but I will never have an impact like 4 24-hours news channels. We used to have freedom of religion, but now building anything Muslim near the World Trade Center is up for national debate.


Sooooooooo...in conclusion, I cannot speculate on the ability of Cubans to maintain a RevCapitalist site. Also, there is a reason we have freedom of speech and that's because it will not change the political climate.

[Bud Struggle]

What results from me standing at the corner of SW 8th Ave and 107th St. in Miami with a Che poster that says, "Hasta la victoria siempre!"

You'd get you head chopped off. :)

[ComradeMan]

You'd get you head chopped off. :)

By whom? And that would be illegal- it wouldn't be the government kicking your door down in the night putting duck tape over your mouth, whisking you off somewhere would it...?

[Bud Struggle]

By whom? And that would be illegal- it wouldn't be the government kicking your door down in the night putting duck tape over your mouth, whisking you off somewhere would it...?

Miami is anti Fidel country. BIG TIME. Miami is also a Third World nation that happens to be inside the United States. Back when I lived in NYC I used to have a (yes I know :( ) second home on one of the causways off the intercoastal there.

[ComradeMan]

Miami is anti Fidel country. BIG TIME. Miami is also a Third World nation that happens to be inside the United States. Back when I lived in NYC I used to have a (yes I know :( ) second home on one of the causways off the intercoastal there.

I take it because of all the Cubans there- but still, it's not state sanctioned is it? That's the difference.

I'm not having a go at Cuba insomuch as saying that it's easy to sit inside the US and complain about stuff from the inside and maybe, just maybe, not appreciate some of the good stuff- of which freedom of speech is one- as Chomsky pointed out too.

[Bud Struggle]

I take it because of all the Cubans there- but still, it's not state sanctioned is it? That's the difference.Miami is a nasty place if you are in any way pro Castro.


I'm not having a go at Cuba insomuch as saying that it's easy to sit inside the US and complain about stuff from the inside and maybe, just maybe, not appreciate some of the good stuff- of which freedom of speech is one- as Chomsky pointed out too. Personally, I think America should let the freakin' place be. If they want to be Communist--good for them. It is none of America's business. Just like it's none of my business if you want to be a Communist.

The problem is there is an entire Cuban voting BLOCK that votes for whoever is most anti Fedel. It sucks. Why don't you think I hven't be4en there in 10 years? I used to go from the Keys every now and then--5-6 hrs of motoring, but a really nice vacation and pick up some cigars. Nope, the freakin' Cuban expats got to George Bush and old Bud is stuck smoking some turds from Honduras. I'm a victim of this embargo as much as anyone. :(

People really need to leave to leave each other alone.

(Kind of a rant there!)

[ComradeMan]

Miami is a nasty place if you are in any way pro Castro.

Personally, I think America should let the freakin' place be. If they want to be Communist--good for them. It is none of America's business. Just like it's none of my business if you want to be a Communist.

The problem is there is an entire Cuban voting BLOCK that votes for whoever is most anti Fedel. It sucks. Why don't you think I hven't be4en there in 10 years? I used to go from the Keys every now and then--5-6 hrs of motoring, but a really nice vacation and pick up some cigars. Nope, the freakin' Cuban expats got to George Bush and old Bud is stuck smoking some turds from Honduras. I'm a victim of this embargo as much as anyone. :(

People really need to leave to leave each other alone.

(Kind of a rant there!)

Well we might have shit freedom of press but we can buy lanceros and rum... LOL!!!!!!!! What a world.

Seriously, I agree - first step in global revolution would be for everyone to mind the fuck out of other people's business and only help when help is actually what's on the cards...

[RGacky3]

Personally, I think America should let the freakin' place be. If they want to be Communist--good for them. It is none of America's business. Just like it's none of my business if you want to be a Communist.

The problem is there is an entire Cuban voting BLOCK that votes for whoever is most anti Fedel. It sucks. Why don't you think I hven't be4en there in 10 years? I used to go from the Keys every now and then--5-6 hrs of motoring, but a really nice vacation and pick up some cigars. Nope, the freakin' Cuban expats got to George Bush and old Bud is stuck smoking some turds from Honduras. I'm a victim of this embargo as much as anyone. :(

People really need to leave to leave each other alone.

(Kind of a rant there!)

Its not the cuban voting block that the US government is worried about, its the same reason they are hugely anti-anyoneleft in latin america, its a competing model, its an independant one.

BTW, I wonder hwy this is'nt a tea-party issue, its clearly government intervention into personal freedom, oh yeah, the cock-brothers arn't making money in Cuba.

[gorillafuck]

Yea your right. There have been Communist elected here and there--but not enough to change the system to a Communist one. The Communists exist as onzies twozies in a Capitalist system.
No, I mean Communists (in the past generally marxist-leninists but at times other varieties) have been the most popular political force in numerous countries and elections have shown it.


That's how it goes--no Reaganite Republicans were able to run for office in the Soviet Union either.
I didn't say they were.

[Bud Struggle]

Its not the cuban voting block that the US government is worried about, its the same reason they are hugely anti-anyoneleft in latin america, its a competing model, its an independant one. You mean the voting block that swung the election in Florida and put the election in the Supreme Court and gave George Bush the victory? You mean that unimportant voting block?


BTW, I wonder hwy this is'nt a tea-party issue, its clearly government intervention into personal freedom, oh yeah, the cock-brothers arn't making money in Cuba. They could make money in Cuba. And it should be an issue.

[Bud Struggle]

No, I mean Communists (in the past generally marxist-leninists but at times other varieties) have been the most popular political force in numerous countries and elections have shown it.


I'm not disagreeing with you--but could you giv e me an example?

[Revolution starts with U]

Nobody ever mentions, in the mainstream, that a significant contributor to stagnation of all communist nations was because of capitalist trade restrictions.

[RGacky3]

You mean the voting block that swung the election in Florida and put the election in the Supreme Court and gave George Bush the victory? You mean that unimportant voting block?



Yeah, not saying they are unimportant, I"m saying they are not the reason for it. 70% of the country wanted public healthcare, did that go? most of AMerica wants to end the embargo, a couple ex-pats in Florida are not the reason for such a huge policy. The latino voting block in the west coast is MUCH MUCH more powerful how is that dictating policy?


They could make money in Cuba. And it should be an issue.

Not much, not with the economic situation now (who knows maybe they'll start selling cuba off).

[ComradeMan]

Nobody ever mentions, in the mainstream, that a significant contributor to stagnation of all communist nations was because of capitalist trade restrictions.

That is a bit lame though from a cynic's point of view isn't it? The communists failed because the capitalists wouldn't do business with them-:thumbup:

The communist nations never got past the vanguard stage- that was the problem and then they found themselves in check because of capitalist blockades- as you rightly point out. But hell, the Soviet Union could have been a lot else and whereas Cuba could perhaps justify the blockade hindering development I don't really believe the USSR could. They managed to build space stations all right though didn't they?

[Bud Struggle]

Yeah, not saying they are unimportant, I"m saying they are not the reason for it. 70% of the country wanted public healthcare, did that go? most of AMerica wants to end the embargo, a couple ex-pats in Florida are not the reason for such a huge policy. The latino voting block in the west coast is MUCH MUCH more powerful how is that dictating policy? The Cubans are pretty united. Honestly I don't think anyone cares about Cuba at all and are all waiting for Fidel to die. So till then there won't be much movement one way or another.



Not much, not with the economic situation now (who knows maybe they'll start selling cuba off). They make Georgia Pacific toilet paper--and everyone's got to go. :rolleyes:

[Revolution starts with U]

Where did I say it was the factor. I merely pointed out that it does not get mentioned in the mainstream

[gorillafuck]

I'm not disagreeing with you--but could you giv e me an example?
Nepal and Chile (not just examples of when communists were the most popular political force, but when elections demonstrated it). Also Venezuela repeatedly elects a party that claims to want to rid society of capitalism, regardless of what you think of the PSUV. Those are some off the top of my head.


By whom? And that would be illegal- it wouldn't be the government kicking your door down in the night putting duck tape over your mouth, whisking you off somewhere would it...?
The US stopped doing that to domestic dissidents in around the 70's.

[Property Is Robbery]

"Marriage is the voluntarily established union between a man and a woman"

This is my biggest problem with it.

[Bud Struggle]

"Marriage is the voluntarily established union between a man and a woman"

This is my biggest problem with it.


Also Fidel built the nicest Orthodox cathedral with the People's Money not too long ago, too.

[ComradeMan]

"Marriage is the voluntarily established union between a man and a woman"

This is my biggest problem with it.


I don't follow you here.

Karl Marx was married and fathered seven children.

Marriage is the voluntarily established union between a man and a woman.

Are you saying that it doesn't recognise civil partnerships and such?

[Bud Struggle]

Yea, no gay marriage in Cuba.

[Albania]

^^^^I don't disagree with any of that. As I said, it's about the same everywhere in Central America.

Everywhere is a big word. Possibly in Guatemala and Honduras but not in Costa Rica, Belize and Panama. El Salvador and Nicaragua I have no idea but I think they would be included in the latter group.

[Fulanito de Tal]

There isn't internet access in Cuba like there is here, so there could be no RevCapitalist. I don't want to speculate what would happen if internet was readily accessible in Cuba because I'm not that good at speculating and there are way to many variables to consider when predicting something like that.

I agree that I could say almost whatever I want in the US. However, but what good does it do? What results from me standing at the corner of SW 8th Ave and 107th St. in Miami with a Che poster that says, "Hasta la victoria siempre!" That has no impact on the political frame we live in, not to mention that my life would be in danger. We are at the mercy of what the media brainwashes the people to think. How many people seriously think that 9/11 happened because Muslims hate freedom? I can talk to all the people I want, but I will never have an impact like 4 24-hours news channels. We used to have freedom of religion, but now building anything Muslim near the World Trade Center is up for national debate.


Sooooooooo...in conclusion, I cannot speculate on the ability of Cubans to maintain a RevCapitalist site. Also, there is a reason we have freedom of speech and that's because it will not change the political climate.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1944183&postcount=317


From the Q & A

Quote:
Julian Assange:
The west has fiscalised its basic power relationships through a web of contracts, loans, shareholdings, bank holdings and so on. In such an environment it is easy for speech to be "free" because a change in political will rarely leads to any change in these basic instruments. Western speech, as something that rarely has any effect on power, is, like badgers and birds, free. In states like China, there is pervasive censorship, because speech still has power and power is scared of it. We should always look at censorship as an economic signal that reveals the potential power of speech in that jurisdiction. The attacks against us by the US point to a great hope, speech powerful enough to break the fiscal blockade.

[balaclava]

Now there’s a coincidence, I’ve just come back from Cuba and here’s a thread on Cuba. I was only there for a couple of days and it’s my first visit there and so I do not profess to be any kind of authority but I can tell you of some of things I found.

First the good stuff – there’s free education up to the age of 17 years and free health care.

Next the not so good stuff – they are still on rationing (every citizen gets a monthly allowance of the basics). In practice what means is that they can buy the rationed goods with the local currency which is worthless. The government owns everything. But that’s a good thing you say. Because the government owns everything nothing works because the guy who is paid to make it work has no incentive to work. So for example a hundred years ago they had underground sewers, running water and beautiful buildings, now they have to get their sewers emptied, their water delivered in a truck and all the beautiful old buildings are falling down. If they want to buy anything other than the rationed stuff they need to buy the convertible currency. It cost me £10 for one cigar yet the Cuban guy checking my passport who is paid £1 a month was smoking them! Walk down the road for a 100 yards and you feel like you’ve smoked a pack of those cigars because the air is so polluted from all those old cars. They blame everything on the Americans – “why have you got no food?” cos of America, “why are all the beautiful old buildings falling down?” cos of America etc., etc.

It occurred to me that just because a guy fights a good war and wins a revolution doesn’t mean he’s going to be capable of running a country but once he’s won the war there’s no way of replacing him with someone who can!

[ComradeMan]

Now there’s a coincidence, I’ve just come back from Cuba and here’s a thread on Cuba. I was only there for a couple of days and it’s my first visit there and so I do not profess to be any kind of authority but I can tell you of some of things I found.

First the good stuff – there’s free education up to the age of 17 years and free health care.

Next the not so good stuff – they are still on rationing (every citizen gets a monthly allowance of the basics). In practice what means is that they can buy the rationed goods with the local currency which is worthless. The government owns everything. But that’s a good thing you say. Because the government owns everything nothing works because the guy who is paid to make it work has no incentive to work. So for example a hundred years ago they had underground sewers, running water and beautiful buildings, now they have to get their sewers emptied, their water delivered in a truck and all the beautiful old buildings are falling down. If they want to buy anything other than the rationed stuff they need to buy the convertible currency. It cost me £10 for one cigar yet the Cuban guy checking my passport who is paid £1 a month was smoking them! Walk down the road for a 100 yards and you feel like you’ve smoked a pack of those cigars because the air is so polluted from all those old cars. They blame everything on the Americans – “why have you got no food?” cos of America, “why are all the beautiful old buildings falling down?” cos of America etc., etc.

It occurred to me that just because a guy fights a good war and wins a revolution doesn’t mean he’s going to be capable of running a country but once he’s won the war there’s no way of replacing him with someone who can!

You cannot deny the socio-economic impact of the embargo and US bullying of other nations when it comes to the enforcement of the embargo.

But you should also think about what Cuba was like for the majority under Batista too.

[Revolution starts with U]

Well, Balac, to be fair, it is kind of hard to attract capital into your country when the world's superpower has a general embargo against you

[balaclava]

I accept that the US embargo is wrong, in fact I believe it does more damage to the US than Cuba. And, I can't believe that you can blame the failure of Cuba on that enbargo. By any measures Cuba under Castro has been a failure. What I'd like to know is whether is failed because Castro can't manage or because communism or his brand of communism doesn't work?

[Bud Struggle]

I accept that the US embargo is wrong, in fact I believe it does more damage to the US than Cuba. And, I can't believe that you can blame the failure of Cuba on that enbargo. By any measures Cuba under Castro has been a failure. What I'd like to know is whether is failed because Castro can't manage or because communism or his brand of communism doesn't work?

You nailed it. Something was wrong there. People are oppressed, the economy can't make it in any workable fashion and while there are a lot of good things about the country (I've been there, too) I wouldn't want to live there.

I'd give it a D+. If I was more a smoker I'd give it a C.

[ComradeMan]

I accept that the US embargo is wrong, in fact I believe it does more damage to the US than Cuba. And, I can't believe that you can blame the failure of Cuba on that enbargo. By any measures Cuba under Castro has been a failure. What I'd like to know is whether is failed because Castro can't manage or because communism or his brand of communism doesn't work?

I accept that the US embargo is wrong, in fact I believe it does more damage to the US than Cuba

How? I don't think that will really stand to scrutiny.

And, I can't believe that you can blame the failure of Cuba on that enbargo.

Not all of it, the lack of economic support from a USSR too. But do you deny that the embargo didn't force Cuba into a position from which it is difficult to progress?

By any measures Cuba under Castro has been a failure.

Really? Some places like Bolivia and Colombia have been even worse.... but they weren't communist states with a huge economic embargo against them and with a big neighbour trying to kill them all the time... have a look around the "third world"....

What I'd like to know is whether is failed because Castro can't manage or because communism or his brand of communism doesn't work?

For someone who professes logic- you should see the problem in your question. ;)

[Revolution starts with U]

Exactly... why exactly has Cuba failed, yet Brazil hasn't?
The only possible reason you could give is because one is "socialist"-ic, and the other is capitalist. And come one, can we say "circular argument?"

[Bud Struggle]

Exactly... why exactly has Cuba failed, yet Brazil hasn't?
The only possible reason you could give is because one is "socialist"-ic, and the other is capitalist. And come one, can we say "circular argument?"

Brazil is huge and Cuba is small.

[Revolution starts with U]

And?
Japan is no bigger than Cuba.. maybe a little, I dont have any numbers to back that up... but not much

[Burn A Flag]

And?
Japan is no bigger than Cuba.. maybe a little, I dont have any numbers to back that up... but not much

Ummm Japan is about 10x bigger than Cuba population wise. So no.

[Revolution starts with U]

That's good. Can you source it? All it does is further prove my point. Brazil is about the size of Japan, both are capitalist... what does Japan do that Brazil doesn't? How does Cuba, a much smaller nation, fit into all this?

Say what you want about the USSR, but I don't think there's any way you can tie Cuba's problems directly to only their economic system. There are far more things involved there.

[balaclava]

For someone who professes logic- you should see the problem in your question. ;)

I make the statement - I believe it (the US embargo of Cuba) does more damage to the US than Cuba. You ask How?

First off, I did say it was my opinion. Next off, I accept it’s probably impossible to quantify and measure what one gains and what the other loses but here goes. America desires and seeks the respect of the world and I would argue that its embargo has impacted negatively on that aim. Cuba wants and seeks aid and I would argue that the US embargo has brought that aid e.g. Russia and Chavez and the sympathy of most of the world.

I asked the question – is Cuba’s failure a result of Castro’s incompetence or because communism or his brand of communism doesn't work? Of course that question presupposes that we agree that Cuba is a failure and we could then get into a discussion on what is success and what is failure but on the basis that most people measure success and failure by those things that bring a better quality of life I would argue that Castro (considering his starting point of owning (acquiring/stealing) everything) has failed to produce any significant improvement in the quality of life of the Cuban people. If you accept that suggestion it (logically) follows (in my opinion) that the failure is down to mismanagement by the leader or the system of governance imposed doesn’t work.

[ComradeMan]

I make the statement - I believe it (the US embargo of Cuba) does more damage to the US than Cuba. You ask How?

First off, I did say it was my opinion. Next off, I accept it’s probably impossible to quantify and measure what one gains and what the other loses but here goes. America desires and seeks the respect of the world and I would argue that its embargo has impacted negatively on that aim.

No, the US seeks fertile terrain for its business interests and economic hegemony- the rest is rhetoric, if they were so concerned about it they would not continue and illegal blockade.


Cuba wants and seeks aid and I would argue that the US embargo has brought that aid e.g. Russia and Chavez and the sympathy of most of the world.

Russian is aid is historical- but do you not think Cuba may not have needed so much aid in the first place had it not been for the embargo? Do you? Do you not?


I asked the question – is Cuba’s failure a result of Castro’s incompetence or because communism or his brand of communism doesn't work?

But this presupposes that Cuba is indeed a failed state- life is hard in Cuba, but failed state? The way things are going the Eurozone capitalist states are going to be failed states.

If you refuse to acknowledge the effect of the embargo, then you cannot expect an analysis of the successes and failures of Cuba.

You have an anti-Cuban stance, yet you went to Cuba for a holiday and propped up Castro's regime...?:lol:

[Revolution starts with U]

I'll point out once again, Cuba has the lowest poverty rates in the caribbean, and I'm not sure about this; but I think in latin america.

I have my many problems with the cuban/soviet model, and it's far from socialism in the real sense. But people's ability to just take Cuba out of perspective is not helpful to the debate.

[balaclava]

[/FONT][/COLOR]
You have an anti-Cuban stance, yet you went to Cuba for a holiday and propped up Castro's regime...?:lol:

I am certainly not anti-Cuba or anti-Castro I just have questions. I was much looking forward to my visit there because it was my first time there and because of it’s unique and enigmatic situation. It was a beautiful and prosperous country. It was a base for revolutionaries who exported the fight not just to Latin America but also to Africa. I was never quite sure whether they were driven by the thrill of the fight of because of an idealistic cause. It has a great reputation for education and health care. There are shed loads of Cubans fleeing the country floating across to the US on car tyres. I went with all those questions and I came away few answers and more questions. In 50 years of power, starting from a situation where the state appropriated everything (Castro started with seized ownership of the wealth of the whole country) they have achieved nothing (apart from schooling and healthcare). Not only have they achieved nothing the country has gone backwards, the infrastructure that was in place and functioning before he took over has just been left to collapse. Any new constructions of consequence have been done as donations by other countries. All and any work currently being done to preserve the beautiful old buildings is being done by the EU. The well educated, healthy population sit on chairs outside the hovel the call home watching the world walk by. Some of those hovels they live in with hundreds of others would, in my country, be have ‘protected’ status as a national treasure. Why are they on rationed food? Why do they have two currencies? Why don’t they give all the well educated healthy citizens a paint brush and a can of paint? Why has it failed and continue to fail? Are we saying that a country cannot succeed without US support – surely not. And that’s another reason why the US embargo does more damage to the US and Cuba, because it allows Castro to blame all the failures on the US embargo.

A few years back I also spent some time in another country that was once prosperous and was taken over by a popular revolution – Zimbabwe. There are many similarities but some subtle differences due to the geography.

[ComradeMan]

I am certainly not anti-Cuba or anti-Castro I just have questions. I was much looking forward to my visit there because it was my first time there and because of it’s unique and enigmatic situation. It was a beautiful and prosperous country. It was a base for revolutionaries who exported the fight not just to Latin America but also to Africa. I was never quite sure whether they were driven by the thrill of the fight of because of an idealistic cause. It has a great reputation for education and health care.

Cuba under Batista was just paradise... yeah....


There are shed loads of Cubans fleeing the country floating across to the US on car tyres.

Was it Cicero? Man thinks first with his stomach?


I went with all those questions and I came away few answers and more questions. In 50 years of power, starting from a situation where the state appropriated everything (Castro started with seized ownership of the wealth of the whole country) they have achieved nothing (apart from schooling and healthcare). Not only have they achieved nothing the country has gone backwards, the infrastructure that was in place and functioning before he took over has just been left to collapse.

You move from a reasonable point to an extreme one.

They have achieved nothing- other than healthcare and education? Did you see homeless people sleeping on the streets? Did you see street children like in Brazil?

The infrastructure that was in place before the revolution was largely there due to what?


Any new constructions of consequence have been done as donations by other countries. All and any work currently being done to preserve the beautiful old buildings is being done by the EU. The well educated, healthy population sit on chairs outside the hovel the call home watching the world walk by. Some of those hovels they live in with hundreds of others would, in my country, be have ‘protected’ status as a national treasure. Why are they on rationed food? Why do they have two currencies? Why don’t they give all the well educated healthy citizens a paint brush and a can of paint? Why has it failed and continue to fail? Are we saying that a country cannot succeed without US support – surely not. And that’s another reason why the US embargo does more damage to the US and Cuba, because it allows Castro to blame all the failures on the US embargo.

So having an enormous trade embargo enforced on Cuba does not have any effect? It's not about US support, it's about the fact the embargo has crippled many prospects for development which Cuba may well have had, entrenching the country in the immediate post-revolutionary stage and thus the US can continue to justify their policies and political outlook by pointing to Cuba to distract attention perhaps from the 20 or million people in the US who live in abject poverty. If Cuba hadn't existed the US would have needed to invent it. No country can be materially prosperous in the modern world if its completely isolated from the rest- unless you support some form of primitivism.

You really think the US care about their reputation when they are one of the richest countries in the world?

You fail to mention the Cuban Democracy Act or "Torricelli Law" of 1992, post-Cold War/Soviet Era that was a blatant form of economic warfare against Cuba.


A few years back I also spent some time in another country that was once prosperous and was taken over by a popular revolution – Zimbabwe. There are many similarities but some subtle differences due to the geography.

There are few similarities, namely that Mr Mugabe has been bankrolled by British banks for years and disregarding the political theatre of his anti-imperialist rhetoric the likes of Mugabe and Amin etc actually serve the interests of Western Imperialism. It suits Western Imperialists to have corrupt dictators like Mugabe in power etc, because it keeps the countries backward and keeps the prices of the raw materials low. The last thing they want is countries in the "third world" to have democratic and progressive governments where the people might actually demand a fair retribution for their work and control over their raw materials. This is not the case in Cuba.

[Burn A Flag]

I am certainly not anti-Cuba or anti-Castro I just have questions. I was much looking forward to my visit there because it was my first time there and because of it’s unique and enigmatic situation. It was a beautiful and prosperous country. It was a base for revolutionaries who exported the fight not just to Latin America but also to Africa. I was never quite sure whether they were driven by the thrill of the fight of because of an idealistic cause. It has a great reputation for education and health care. There are shed loads of Cubans fleeing the country floating across to the US on car tyres. I went with all those questions and I came away few answers and more questions. In 50 years of power, starting from a situation where the state appropriated everything (Castro started with seized ownership of the wealth of the whole country) they have achieved nothing (apart from schooling and healthcare). Not only have they achieved nothing the country has gone backwards, the infrastructure that was in place and functioning before he took over has just been left to collapse. Any new constructions of consequence have been done as donations by other countries. All and any work currently being done to preserve the beautiful old buildings is being done by the EU. The well educated, healthy population sit on chairs outside the hovel the call home watching the world walk by. Some of those hovels they live in with hundreds of others would, in my country, be have ‘protected’ status as a national treasure. Why are they on rationed food? Why do they have two currencies? Why don’t they give all the well educated healthy citizens a paint brush and a can of paint? Why has it failed and continue to fail? Are we saying that a country cannot succeed without US support – surely not. And that’s another reason why the US embargo does more damage to the US and Cuba, because it allows Castro to blame all the failures on the US embargo.

A few years back I also spent some time in another country that was once prosperous and was taken over by a popular revolution – Zimbabwe. There are many similarities but some subtle differences due to the geography.

Someone is in denial about being anti Castro. Also, Castro neither is nor was singlehandledly doing all these things. Castro didn't just walk into Havana and make it his private property.

[Fulanito de Tal]

Now there’s a coincidence, I’ve just come back from Cuba and here’s a thread on Cuba. I was only there for a couple of days and it’s my first visit there and so I do not profess to be any kind of authority but I can tell you of some of things I found.

First the good stuff – there’s free education up to the age of 17 years and free health care.

Next the not so good stuff – they are still on rationing (every citizen gets a monthly allowance of the basics). In practice what means is that they can buy the rationed goods with the local currency which is worthless. The government owns everything. But that’s a good thing you say. Because the government owns everything nothing works because the guy who is paid to make it work has no incentive to work. So for example a hundred years ago they had underground sewers, running water and beautiful buildings, now they have to get their sewers emptied, their water delivered in a truck and all the beautiful old buildings are falling down. If they want to buy anything other than the rationed stuff they need to buy the convertible currency. It cost me £10 for one cigar yet the Cuban guy checking my passport who is paid £1 a month was smoking them! Walk down the road for a 100 yards and you feel like you’ve smoked a pack of those cigars because the air is so polluted from all those old cars. They blame everything on the Americans – “why have you got no food?” cos of America, “why are all the beautiful old buildings falling down?” cos of America etc., etc.

It occurred to me that just because a guy fights a good war and wins a revolution doesn’t mean he’s going to be capable of running a country but once he’s won the war there’s no way of replacing him with someone who can!


If nothing works, how do people eat and shit? How did you buy a cigar? Did it come from England where everything works?

You paid 10 pounds for a cigar because you were ripped off. You probably had more of an effect on the outcome of that transaction than the Revolution. Thousands of people buy cigars in Cuba for a peso everyday.

A few not beautiful old buildings are falling down. Many beautiful old buildings have been or are being restored.

Don't go to Cuba with your biased lens that can only see what you don't like and come back to give a bullshit report. Why don't you mention how there are no homeless children? Or that kids with autism are given the opportunity to care for horses so they can build a bond? And that those horses are used to give paraplegics exercise? Or that people with mental development problems are given jobs such as being in charge of a bus stop which keeps them integrated as a functioning member of society? And if you don't have money for the bus, no one will even give you a dirty look for not paying and riding for free? And if you're hungry and don't have food, someone will give you there's? And with the little they have, they still manage to have doctors in Haiti...BEFORE the earthquake? Or that they provide FREE medical training to oppressed US people...and if the US people don't know Spanish, they're taught that for free too. The list goes on and on...but you can keep discussing the appearance of a few buildings and the air pollution in some busy streets that did not meet your standards. :closedeyes:

Some Cubans might blame everything on the US and some of it may not be true, but there are 11 million Cubans on that island that can blame the US as a significant factor for their problems. In the US, there are 13 million residents below the poverty rate and living much worse conditions that can't blame Cuba for 0.0001% of their problems, but can surely blame the US as well.