Karl Marx vs. Friedrich Engels

[CHE with an AK]

http://images.travelpod.com/users/travelingdiva/3.1064630280.karl-marx-and-friedrich-engels-statue.jpg

I have a genuine interest in exploring how these 2 great minds compare to one another and was curious of the opinions from people on the site …

(1) What are some of their more noticeable differences and similarities?

(2) Who do you believe was the more intellectually accomplished and intelligent of the two?

(3) Why isn’t there such a thing as “Engelism”?

(4) Does Engel’s make Marx’s ideas more clear or convoluted?

(5) What % of the Communist Manifesto would you attribute to the two men – i.e. 75 % Marx / 25 % Engels

(6) Analogously, is one the Batman and the other the Robin or would Superman/Batman be more appropriate?

(7) Who was more radical of the two?

(8) Which of the two men has had more of an impact on Modern day Communism?

(9) Which of the two is your favorite and why?

(10) What is the best individual work or single contribution of each man?

Thanks

[CHE with an AK]

+ I was also wondering if there is a book or website that compares the 2 men or expounds on their relationship out there?

[Zanthorus]

'Marx and Engels: The Intellectual Relationship' by Terrell Carver is a book dealing with the relationship between the two. It was reccomened by ZeroNowhere, I cannot really say much else about it.


(5) What % of the Communist Manifesto would you attribute to the two men – i.e. 75 % Marx / 25 % Engels

According to Francis Wheen's biography of Marx, the Manifesto was written by Marx alone, struggling to meet the deadline imposed on him by the Communist League.

[ChrisK]

Survey time muthafuckas!


(1) What are some of their more noticeable differences and similarities?

Engels was a metaphysican, while Marx was more an anti-philosopher.

(2) Who do you believe was the more intellectually accomplished and intelligent of the two?

Marx without a doubt.

(3) Why isn’t there such a thing as “Engelism”?

Because after Marx died, Engels fought extremely hard to have Marx considered the be the intellectual superior and that he was indebted to Marx.

(4) Does Engel’s make Marx’s ideas more clear or convoluted?

Depends on the idea. Philosophically convoluted, in terms of history and general outlines clear.

(5) What % of the Communist Manifesto would you attribute to the two men – i.e. 75 % Marx / 25 % Engels

100% both of them. I can't see a way to seperate their ideas in this instance.

(6) Analogously, is one the Batman and the other the Robin or would Superman/Batman be more appropriate?

The latter.

(7) Who was more radical of the two?

Equal

(8) Which of the two men has had more of an impact on Modern day Communism?

Thats tough. Engels gives us dialectical materialism. Marx gave everything else that the two contributed. Hmmm, Marx.

(9) Which of the two is your favorite and why?

Marx. Genius, anti-philosopher, revolutionary.

(10) What is the best individual work or single contribution of each man?

Engels- The Peasent War in Germany
Marx- Das Kapital and the 18th Brumaire

Thanks

[ZeroNowhere]

'Marx and Engels: The Intellectual Relationship' by Terrell Carver is a book dealing with the relationship between the two. It was reccomened by ZeroNowhere, I cannot really say much else about it.Yes, this is a good book on their relationship and influence upon each other. Whereas Engels did influence Marx through his 'Outlines of a Critique of Political Economy', political economy mainly became Marx's field after that, with Marx often explaining his views to Engels after new findings. On the other hand, dialectical materialism (motion is a contradiction, etc) was more or less Engels' innovation, inasmuch as he didn't just borrow from Hegel, and Carver notes that some of Marx's writings would seem to contradict Engels' later views on the matter. Lucio Colletti took a similar view in 'Marxism and Hegel'.

However, I do think that Engels generally did have a firm grasp of what Marx was doing as regards political economy, and he is too often unfairly criticized on this matter. For example, I don't think that his views on simple commodity production are at all alien from Marx, and they stand alone quite strongly anyhow.

On the other hand, I definitely find Engels' later works on politics interesting. While many of the ideas (a general union of the working class, working class political organization, etc) may also be found in Marx, they are generally a lot clearer in Engels. I am also interested in his introduction to 'Class Struggles in France', which I would say identifies some important points as regards the forms in which revolution must take place.


According to Francis Wheen's biography of Marx, the Manifesto was written by Marx alone, struggling to meet the deadline imposed on him by the Communist League.
It seems to take a fair bit from Engels' 'Principles of Communism', at the least.

[Zanthorus]

On the other hand, I definitely find Engels' later works on politics interesting. While many of the ideas (a general union of the working class, working class political organization, etc) may also be found in Marx, they are generally a lot clearer in Engels.

Yes, I would definitely say that whatever theoretical differences they may or may not have had in terms of the dialectics of nature, on concrete political issues they were completely in agreement. A lot of the 'anti-Engels' work seems to fall down in this respect, as it frequently becomes an excuse to reject political work and organisation. The only exception that comes to mind is Colleti, who I believe was part of some Trotskyist grouping or another. Although wether we consider this an improvement on no political grouping at all is up for debate.

[chegitz guevara]

It should be remembered the Marx read through and contributed a section to Anti-Dühring. If Marx didn't agree with Engel's theories on dialectics, he never wrote anything that's surfaced.

[ChrisK]

It should also be remembered that he was working on three volumes of capital, plauged with carbuncles, didn't consider the Anti-Duhring to be of much importance at all, his wife was about to die, his daughter was to die just a bit later and a short time after that he would die.

[Zanthorus]

It should also be remembered that he was working on three volumes of capital,

Marx had stopped all work on the three volumees of Capital by 1872. Towards the end he developed an obsession with studying pre-capitalist social formations, particularly the Russian village commune. When he died, Engels was reportedly outraged when pouring through Marx's notes to find that the manuscripts for Volume's two and three were in the same state they'd been ten years earlier and the place was filled with pages of notes on Russia.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Chegitz:


It should be remembered the Marx read through and contributed a section to Anti-Dühring.

In fact, Engels tells us he read it to Marx. Why do that? Can you imagine how long that would take? Can you imagine Marx sitting there having it read to him when he was quite capable of reading it for himself?

This suggests that Engels either did not read it to him, or only read certain parts.

In which case this 'factoid' cannot be used to show these two agreed over this mystical theory.

A recent book on this is the following:

N Levine, (2006), Divergent Paths. Hegel In Marxism And Engelsism, Volume One: The Hegelian Foundations Of Marx's Method (Lexington Books).

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yPj4v9IzyQoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Norman+Levine+Divergent+Paths&source=bl&ots=f3fAgcwwUc&sig=Z-6TggO29HcWnkhEu5j30nWwzRg&hl=en&ei=HTzbTK6-J8ubhQejrbz_Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is volume one of a trilogy to be published over the next few years.

They follow on from his other books on this:

Levine, N. (1975), The Tragic Deception: Marx Contra Engels (Clio Books).

--------, (1984), Dialogue Within The Dialectic (George, Allen and Unwin).

Which argue that Marx and Engels diverged in important ways.

I have commented on this, with more references to the secondary literature, here:

http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/page%2009_01.htm

Use the 'Quick Links' at the top to jump to section (7) Marx and Dialectical Materialism.

[chegitz guevara]

Go ahead, Rosa, make up lies to avoid the truth that Marx was tight with Engels when it came to dialectics.

[CHE with an AK]

Thanks for the ideas thus far, and keep them coming.

I knew this was the right place to ask this question ...

Viva Revleft! :)