SWP with the islamists ?

[learningaboutheleft123]

look I know that the SWP oppose right wing opponents such as the EDL, I understand that. But isn't the far right islamist group MAC just the same ?. I mean, since when were the left involved with religion anyway. We should stick to our aims and leave the UAF to fight the right. Anjem Choudary, former leader of the banned group, ISLAM4UK, has even made it clear that he does not want the communists help. If sharia law was implemented in the UK, our organisations would be banned and they would not be allowed. The left should oppose the edl, aswell as radical islam.

[IndependentCitizen]

Since when did the SWP support MAC/MDL?

Whilst there's elements of radical Islamism in almost every country, in ratio to the Muslim population. It's an absolute minority, organisations like the ENA/EDL just amplify the problem with news reports to produce fear. If you create fear, people take it seriously and will try to find some solution. The EDL say they're non-racist, and oppose Islamism. The average person thinks "Non-racist organisation against the guys who wanna kill us?" They take sides with the EDL. That's one of a few reasons. Another is the football casual sub-culture the EDL have gained. So now you're gaining mainstream exposure, and people become more interested in reading in to the problems with radical Islamism by browsing the EDL forum, and finding exaggerated articles on the 'rise'. That's how the EDL, and media have created the idea of the rise of 'radical Islamism'.

How do you propose we oppose radical Islam when it truly is the absolute minority? If were to use the tactics of the EDL, we're simply alienating the Muslim communities, and branding them all Islamists like the EDL do.

[Quail]

Since when should we leave the useless, ineffective UAF to fight the right?

[People's War]

Fascism and religious fundamentalism are both immoral and need to be stopped.

[IndependentCitizen]

Since when should we leave the useless, ineffective UAF to fight the right?

The UAF are parasite-like, so they come in handy pissing the right wingers off.

[Quail]

The UAF are parasite-like, so they come in handy pissing the right wingers off.
They also make anti-fascism a joke.

[IndependentCitizen]

They also make anti-fascism a joke.

Whilst this is true, the problem is. What other option do we have? Militant anti-fascism in the UK is pretty non-existant, what can we do to re-ignite the flame?

[Queercommie Girl]

http://socialistworld.net/eng/2004/10/12islam.html (http://www.anonym.to/?http://socialistworld.net/eng/2004/10/12islam.html)

A good article on SWP's "opportunism" regarding the Muslim issue.

[Volcanicity]

look I know that the SWP oppose right wing opponents such as the EDL, I understand that. But isn't the far right islamist group MAC just the same ?. I mean, since when were the left involved with religion anyway. We should stick to our aims and leave the UAF to fight the right. Anjem Choudary, former leader of the banned group, ISLAM4UK, has even made it clear that he does not want the communists help. If sharia law was implemented in the UK, our organisations would be banned and they would not be allowed. The left should oppose the edl, aswell as radical islam.
The talk of Sharia Law being implemented in the UK is just a tool Fascist's use to incite hatred and fear.We need to be opposed to Religious extremist's from every denomination not just Islam.

[Quail]

Whilst this is true, the problem is. What other option do we have? Militant anti-fascism in the UK is pretty non-existant, what can we do to re-ignite the flame?
We can try and organise? If it's so obvious that the UAF are useless, then it follows that we should be building a movement that isn't useless.

[Hit The North]

Since when did the SWP support MAC/MDL?



Why are you bracketing Muslims Against Crusaders with the Muslim Defence League? The former is indeed an extremist Islamicist organisation but the latter, to my understanding, is a grass-roots response to the EDL, seeking to put people on the streets in defence of the Muslim community whenever the EDL/BNP/NF march. Their approach to Islam is a moderate one and they claim to be open to non-Muslim membership:

http://www.facebook.com/Muslim.Defence.League.MDL#!/topic.php?uid=108912969158686&topic=59 (http://www.facebook.com/Muslim.Defence.League.MDL#%21/topic.php?uid=108912969158686&topic=59)

I'm not sure if they actually exist beyond the internet, but if they do, what would the OP (or anyone else on RevLeft) have against Muslims seeking to defend themselves against racists on the streets? I thought we were into militant self-activity.

[Le Corsaire Rouge]

They also make anti-fascism a joke.
If you want to organise the protests yourself then go ahead. Until I see leftists doing something other than chatting to each other and writing self-involved pamphlets, I'll stick with the SWP and its practical activism on behalf of the working class.

[IndependentCitizen]

Why are you bracketing Muslims Against Crusaders with the Muslim Defence League? The former is indeed an extremist Islamicist organisation but the latter, to my understanding, is a grass-roots response to the EDL, seeking to put people on the streets in defence of the Muslim community whenever the EDL/BNP/NF march. Their approach to Islam is a moderate one and they claim to be open to non-Muslim membership:

http://www.facebook.com/Muslim.Defence.League.MDL#!/topic.php?uid=108912969158686&topic=59 (http://www.facebook.com/Muslim.Defence.League.MDL#%21/topic.php?uid=108912969158686&topic=59)

I'm not sure if they actually exist beyond the internet, but if they do, what would the OP (or anyone else on RevLeft) have against Muslims seeking to defend themselves against racists on the streets? I thought we were into militant self-activity.


You're telling me you've never read the amount of homophobic/anti-semitic and incredibly racist crap that's posted on MDL's facebook page?

[Quail]

If you want to organise the protests yourself then go ahead. Until I see leftists doing something other than chatting to each other and writing self-involved pamphlets, I'll stick with the SWP and its practical activism on behalf of the working class.
Yes, because all we anarchists do is reject the failure of the UAF and organise nothing for ourselves.

[learningaboutheleft123]

if organisations consider themselves as the left, then they should be the left, meaning they oppose both the EDL and MAC, however I dont see them opposing the latter.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I have to say, i'm not a fan of the SWP, but UAF is by far and away the best-known anti-fash group in this country and amongst people i've spoken to who are otherwise not involved in the Socialist movement, they have a good reputation.

I know the SWP aren't always spot on in their practical application of Socialism, but the UAF seems to be doing the job of keeping fascism at bay. They've done a good job on the EDL, in my view.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

http://socialistworld.net/eng/2004/10/12islam.html (http://www.anonym.to/?http://socialistworld.net/eng/2004/10/12islam.html)

A good article on SWP's "opportunism" regarding the Muslim issue.

That article shows me the hypocrisy on the left.

Hannah Sell talks of having to "defend the right of these billionaires to practise their religion free of repression". Um, no. We have to defend the right of all people of all religions, ethnicities and creeds to practise whichever religion they wish.

It is an absolute waste of time to defend the entire Islamic community, on grounds of 'freedom to practise religion free of oppression'. Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but it is a particularly anti-Marxist perspective - we should defend working class Muslims from Islam-phobia which often derives (as the Sell article does, admittedly, point out) from the perpetual hatred of the British press towards those who are on benefits and low incomes.

I don't really give a shit what happens to wealthy people, wealthy Muslims included.

[revolution inaction]

I have to say, i'm not a fan of the SWP, but UAF is by far and away the best-known anti-fash group in this country and amongst people like Daved Cameron, they have a good reputation.

I'm an idiot and know nothing of anti fascism in the uk.

there fixed it

[Queercommie Girl]

That article shows me the hypocrisy on the left.

Hannah Sell talks of having to "defend the right of these billionaires to practise their religion free of repression". Um, no. We have to defend the right of all people of all religions, ethnicities and creeds to practise whichever religion they wish.

It is an absolute waste of time to defend the entire Islamic community, on grounds of 'freedom to practise religion free of oppression'. Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but it is a particularly anti-Marxist perspective - we should defend working class Muslims from Islam-phobia which often derives (as the Sell article does, admittedly, point out) from the perpetual hatred of the British press towards those who are on benefits and low incomes.

I don't really give a shit what happens to wealthy people, wealthy Muslims included.

Fair enough point intrinsically speaking, but it is curious that you seem to just focus on that one tiny little point in this article and from this calls the entire article "hypocritical". Sorry, but I don't really follow your logic. This particular issue isn't even the main theme of the article.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

there fixed it

Brilliant. How is that helping the debate at all?

Clearly, your implicit analysis that i'm, firstly an idiot and, secondly a lackey of David Cameron, is bullshit.

Anything productive to contribute?

Care to let me know what the anarchists have been doing to confront Fascism? I'm genuinely interested.

[Quail]

We've organised amongst ourselves against the EDL, since all the UAF does is stand in a kettle congratulating themselves.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

We've organised amongst ourselves against the EDL, since all the UAF does is stand in a kettle congratulating themselves.

But, standing in a kettle and handing over any militant anti-facists is a revolutionary activity.

[Hit The North]

You're telling me you've never read the amount of homophobic/anti-semitic and incredibly racist crap that's posted on MDL's facebook page?

No, I've only just heard that they exist so I haven't had time to trawl through their Facebook site. If you have any evidence to offer of their alleged homophobia, anti-Semitism and racism, then please do... But make sure these are the comments of MDL members making comments that are endorsed by their organisation, before you criticise the organisation for being racist and homophobic.

[Comrade Wolfie's Very Nearly Banned Adventures]

No, I've only just heard that they exist so I haven't had time to trawl through their Facebook site. If you have any evidence to offer of their alleged homophobia, anti-Semitism and racism, then please do... But make sure these are the comments of MDL members making comments that are endorsed by their organisation, before you criticise the organisation for being racist and homophobic.

Perhaps what the rank and file is saying is reflective of the organization as a whole, after all isn't this what the left has been doing to with the BNP, contrasting the comments of the rank and file have been saying with the offical statements of the leadership.

[bricolage]

I think there is a difference when talking about a facebook page, I could become a 'member' right now by joining the group and post a load of shit the group might not agree with. I couldn't do that with the BNP anywhere near as easily.

[Reznov]

They must be trying to garner some spotlight attention. Dam shame.

[bricolage]

Although isn't it the 'Muslim Defence League (MDL) - United We Stand, Divided We Fall' that SWP members are more involved with?[/URL][URL="http://www.facebook.com/Muslim.Defence.League.MDL#%21/muslimdefenceleague"] (http://www.facebook.com/muslimdefenceleague#)