Indigenous People's Rights: Indonesia

[ComradeMan]

I found this article on the net from Survival International.


http://assets.survivalinternational.org/pictures/907/west_papua_torture_news_medium.jpg (http://assets.survivalinternational.org/pictures/907/west_papua_torture_screen.jpg)

Native Papuans tortured by soldiers- Indonesian government admits this.

http://www.survivalinternational.org/news/6657

http://www.survivalinternational.org/news/6657


Video is disturbing- be warned.
http://assets.survivalinternational.org/documents/455/west_papua_torture_low_270p.mov

[RGacky3]

No man you don't get it, Indonesia is on OUR team.

Yeah your right, its sick, this has been going on for a long time too, completely ignored, and funded by, the United States, yet another war crime they'll get away with.

[ComradeMan]

No man you don't get it, Indonesia is on OUR team.

Yeah your right, its sick, this has been going on for a long time too, completely ignored, and funded by, the United States, yet another war crime they'll get away with.

It's sick- yet there are some members here who seem to think that indigenous peoples are nothing more than savages and barbarians. I ask you, who is the savage here?

Indonesia has a nasty regime indeed.

[balaclava]

Disgraceful indeed - not a lot of shouting coming from the left for that minority - why is that?

[ComradeMan]

Disgraceful indeed - not a lot of shouting coming from the left for that minority - why is that?

Perhaps they don't know about it. That's why I am posting it here, and why I am shouting about it.

Indigenous peoples don't have international newspapers, trade unions, embassies, delegates to the UN, economic might etc--- that's why they often don't get heard.

[RGacky3]

Disgraceful indeed - not a lot of shouting coming from the left for that minority - why is that?


The left, i.e. the radical left are the ONLY ones shouting.

[ComradeMan]

The left, i.e. the radical left are the ONLY ones shouting.

That makes us two.. THE Radical Left!!!!!!

Seriously though- you should have a look on Survival's pages- there's a lot of information there and most of it's sickening....

[Lee Van Cleef]

This is truly disgusting. Does anyone know the strategic reasons for the lifting of the ban? I'm honestly completely ignorant on Indonesia and US policy there.

[Ele'ill]

It's sick- yet there are some members here who seem to think that indigenous peoples are nothing more than savages and barbarians. I ask you, who is the savage here?

Indonesia has a nasty regime indeed.

I ask you, who are these members that don't consider indigenous rights part of leftist struggle?

[ComradeMan]

I ask you, who are these members that don't consider indigenous rights part of leftist struggle?

Well I never see much mention here... but that might just be a perception in all fairness.

What I do note though, and I don't think it's deliberate, is that there is a lot of talk about being primitive, backward and so on. I don't like these terms when applied by one population group to another- it's too much of a value judgement based on modern man's assumption that technological superiority is de facto a sign of cultural superiority and progress.

At the same time I will qualify my position in that I am not a primitivist and do not wish to idealise people either which can often result in a patronising and paternalistic view of the "Nobe Savage".

[Ele'ill]

Well I never see much mention here... but that might just be a perception in all fairness.

What I do note though, and I don't think it's deliberate, is that there is a lot of talk about being primitive, backward and so on. I don't like these terms when applied by one population group to another- it's too much of a value judgement based on modern man's assumption that technological superiority is de facto a sign of cultural superiority and progress.

At the same time I will qualify my position in that I am not a primitivist and do not wish to idealise people either which can often result in a patronising and paternalistic view of the "Nobe Savage".

I don't think this is an issue with the left- I think most leftists are fully in favor of indigenous rights or rather- a 'hands off' mentality.

[Bud Struggle]

I don't think this is an issue with the left- I think most leftists are fully in favor of indigenous rights or rather- a 'hands off' mentality.

How'd that work in Tibet?

[ComradeMan]

How'd that work in Tibet?

Yeah..... exactly.

[RGacky3]

How'd that work in Tibet?

It did'nt happen in Tibet ....

[ComradeMan]

It did'nt happen in Tibet ....

He was referring to indigenous rights not the OP.

[Revolution starts with U]

The people of Tibet should have their rights. The autocratic and feudal monks can fuck off!
Shaolin 4 Life! :p

[RGacky3]

He was referring to indigenous rights not the OP.

Yeah, but waht does that have to do with the Left, China is'nt a part of the left.

[Obs]

How'd that work in Tibet?
Pretty well, actually.

As for Indonesia, it speaks volume about the so-called 'international community' that the only people speaking out against this are radical leftists.

[Ele'ill]

How'd that work in Tibet?

I've seen several increases in leftist focus on the region through international solidarity movements as well as grass roots organizing to raise awareness of what was going on - at major summits you will see a considerable 'free Tibet' presence.

I don't understand what you're talking about outside of this


Is China leftist to you? LOL

[ComradeMan]

Yeah, but waht does that have to do with the Left, China is'nt a part of the left.

Most of the world is outside of the left.... What does that have to do with talking about issues? Or are we only to discuss the internal squabbles of union groups and leaders?

[Ele'ill]

Most of the world is outside of the left.... What does that have to do with talking about issues? Or are we only to discuss the internal squabbles of union groups and leaders?


RGackY was saying the same thing as I was in the post of mine that you just thanked

[Bud Struggle]

The people of Tibet should have their rights. The autocratic and feudal monks can fuck off!
Shaolin 4 Life! :p

But what if the people of Tibet WANT to have their monks and all of that. If that's what they want does the Left have any more right than the Imperialists to change their lives around?

If the Leftist change their lives--aren't they the same as the Imperialsits?

[ComradeMan]

But what if the people of Tibet WANT to have their monks and all of that. If that's what they want does the Left have any more right than the Imperialists to change their lives around?

If the Leftist change their lives--aren't they the same as the Imperialsits?

El Che noted how a successful revolution could come about only if the people themselves were ready and willing. To impose your ideas on others, albeit with "good intentions" (i.e. not coal, oil, precious metals etc;)) is still imperialism.

[Revolution starts with U]

Where is the outcry from the peasants of Tibet that they want that system back?

[Bud Struggle]

Where is the outcry from the peasants of Tibet that they want that system back?

You don't think the Chinese government actually allows freedom of expression?
Anyway:

http://www.france24.com/en/20101022-tibet-language-protests-spread-china-rights-group

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-10-21/world/tibet.student.protest_1_tibetans-free-tibet-tibet-autonomous-region?_s=PM:WORLD


There are a thousand of these.

[ComradeMan]

Where is the outcry from the peasants of Tibet that they want that system back?

Have you not thought they might not want that system back, nor would I particularly, but that doesn't mean what has happened and still happens is right either nor does it mean that they are happy as things stand.

Let's face it, what chance do 6 million people dispersed over a vast and underdeveloped territory have against the might of China? The same chance the Amazonians have in Brazil, the San peoples have in Southern Africa and the Papuans against Indonesia.... get it?

[Lt. Ferret]

bring brack religious theocratic slavery!:thumbup:

[Revolution starts with U]

That was the point tho. The people of Tibet should have their rights. But the feudal lords and autocratic monks can fuck off :thumbup:

[ComradeMan]

That was the point tho. The people of Tibet should have their rights. But the feudal lords and autocratic monks can fuck off :thumbup:

The trouble is that they have been checkmated in this sense because the only major voice (i.e. heard around the world) that puts forward the cause of the Tibetans is the Dalai Lama of course...:unsure:
TAR

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/China_Tibet.svg/275px-China_Tibet.svg.png (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/File:China_Tibet.svg)


The trouble with the whole Tibet issue is that the sources tend to be from polarised extremes so getting to the heart of the matter truthfully is difficult.

[Dimentio]

Disgraceful indeed - not a lot of shouting coming from the left for that minority - why is that?

You are wrong there. The left has consistently advocated for the autonomy of West Papua, East Timor and Aceh, especially as Indonesia is a Pro-American country.

[Dimentio]

How'd that work in Tibet?

Depends.

In general, the left are shouting when Pro-American regimes are doing something bad.

The liberals are shouting when Anti-American regimes are doing something bad.

The conservatives are shouting when anyone is defying America.

[RGacky3]

Where is the outcry from the peasants of Tibet that they want that system back?


What a stupid quesion.

First of all, censorship, second of all, peasants generally have a lot of stuff to do.

[Revolution starts with U]

I"m going to go out on a limb and say the people, the actual common people, do not want the dalai llama to return as de facto king of their country. I'm going to go ahead and say they want that system as much as the current one they're under.
If you can show me any peasant outcry, not by that dictator in exile in India, then you have the right to call my comment stupid.
It would be like saying the people of Germany would have wanted to reinstill the Holy Roman Empire after the NAZI's. No, they wanted democracy, like almost all commoners do.

[ComradeMan]

I"m going to go out on a limb and say the people, the actual common people, do not want the dalai llama to return as de facto king of their country. I'm going to go ahead and say they want that system as much as the current one they're under.
If you can show me any peasant outcry, not by that dictator in exile in India, then you have the right to call my comment stupid.
It would be like saying the people of Germany would have wanted to reinstill the Holy Roman Empire after the NAZI's. No, they wanted democracy, like almost all commoners do.

What happens in some countries when there is a peasant "outcry"- they get tanks driven over them.

For the rest I agree.

[Bud Struggle]

It would be like saying the people of Germany would have wanted to reinstill the Holy Roman Empire after the NAZI's. No, they wanted democracy, like almost all commoners do.

Well after a brief flirtation with demicracy after 1000 years of German feudalism they installed Hitler. And after a brief fling with democracy after the French Revolution they installed Napoleon. Stalin came after the Russian revolution.

People have always had a thing for strong rulers. I'm not saying it's good--but it happens.

[ComradeMan]

Well after a brief flirtation with demicracy after 1000 years of German feudalism they installed Hitler. And after a brief fling with democracy after the French Revolution they installed Napoleon. Stalin came after the Russian revolution.

People have always had a thing for strong rulers. I'm not saying it's good--but it happens.


"Scum floats and dregs sink" was an expression I once heard.

[Albania]

The Netherlands is the one to blame for the mess in Western Papua. They should have prepared them for Independence but instead they just walked away then Indonesia walked in. Some say the Netherlands walked away due to pressure from other major nations. The world then recognized Indonesias control of Western Papua.

Funny thing is the Indonesians thought they could do the same thing in Timor Leste. But the Eastern Timorese proved to be fierce ants. :lol:

[RGacky3]

People have always had a thing for strong rulers. I'm not saying it's good--but it happens.

Of coarse if you ignore context, historical background, material conditions and a whole bunch of other factors it seams like that.

[Bud Struggle]

Of coarse if you ignore context, historical background, material conditions and a whole bunch of other factors it seams like that.

You are dithering.

The Tsars to Stalin to Putin. The same old same old. Feudal, Communist, Capitalist--nothing ever changes.

[Hiero]

What I do note though, and I don't think it's deliberate, is that there is a lot of talk about being primitive, backward and so on


On here? That usually gets shut down very quickly so I don't know what you mean.

I think indigenous movements are not very well covered on this forum because there are very few people form an indigenous population or people who engage with indigenous communities.


But what if the people of Tibet WANT to have their monks and all of that. If that's what they want does the Left have any more right than the Imperialists to change their lives around?


During the cultural revolution, it was Tibetans who were burning temples and beating up monks. It was the moderates in the PLA who moved in to stop the destruction and violence.

There is no doubt that there isn't strife in Tibet, however there is strife all throughout rural China.

[RGacky3]

The Tsars to Stalin to Putin. The same old same old. Feudal, Communist, Capitalist--nothing ever changes.

Well, Europe is'nt a monarchy any more, theres a lot more freedom and democracy in the world, witches don't get burned anymore, things have canged.

[Bud Struggle]

Well, Europe is'nt a monarchy any more, theres a lot more freedom and democracy in the world, witches don't get burned anymore, things have canged.

Putin's not a monarch?

[RGacky3]

No ... He would probably have been, had it not been for the democratic controls in Russia, which are not great, but much better than they used to be, he's got too much power yeah, but its still better than it used to be.

BTW, nice try, one corrupt leader to try and prove that progress never happens :P.

[ComradeMan]

Well, Europe is'nt a monarchy any more, theres a lot more freedom and democracy in the world, witches don't get burned anymore, things have canged.

"Europe" was never a "monarchy"- I suppose not since the days of the Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire and Holy Roman Empires. San Marino is the oldest republic in Europe too.

On the other hand, have things really changed? There are many "constitutional" monarchies that hold "power"- albeit on the books so to speak. The aristocracies still exist and still hold land, power and influence in many places. Europeans just have the choice to elect their dictator-olligarchies now....

[RGacky3]

Europeans just have the choice to elect their dictator-olligarchies now....

Which is a step up from NOT having that choice.

[ComradeMan]

Which is a step up from NOT having that choice.

In a sense it's a step back to the Roman Republic and Greek "democracy".

[RGacky3]

In a sense it's a step back to the Roman Republic and Greek "democracy".

Not really, because theres no more slavery.

[ComradeMan]

Not really, because theres no more slavery.

Wage-slavery? But slavery was only one aspect of those systems anyway. "Slavery" in the traditional sense existed well into the time of capitalism anyway. I don't think you can say that those models depended entirely on slavery. The foundation and early centuries of the Roman Republic did not depend on slavery at all.

[RGacky3]

The foundation and early centuries of the Roman Republic did not depend on slavery at all.

The Roman Republic was not the Roman Empire.


Wage-slavery?

conditions are still better than slaves in the Roman Empire.

[ComradeMan]

The Roman Republic was not the Roman Empire....conditions are still better than slaves in the Roman Empire.

In case you failed to notice I didn't say the Roman Empire did I? I said the Republic!!!

[Revolution starts with U]

I think I'd have rather been a plebian than a serf. Roman republicanism is more progressive than feudal monarchy, imo.

[ComradeMan]

I think I'd have rather been a plebian than a serf. Roman republicanism is more progressive than feudal monarchy, imo.

Well the Romans did topple their non/semi-Roman kings and form a republic. The Romans, at least in name, carried the mantra of being enemies of kings and monarchies right through to the end of empire- of course under the emperor it was a bit hollow but the letters SPQR were still on the legionary standards and the Senate was never abolished, nor the consulships.

[Bud Struggle]

I think I'd have rather been a plebian than a serf. Roman republicanism is more progressive than feudal monarchy, imo.

I would think myself Senator Budus Struggleorum! :D

[ComradeMan]

I would think myself Senator Budus Struggleorum! :D

of the gens Frivolus no doubt....;)

[Revolution starts with U]

I don't know if you're that rich Bud. Maybe you could have had a prominent position in the military. Are you in an economic condition to lend money to large amounts of people and buy large amounts of bread and circus to buy votes?

[ComradeMan]

I don't know if you're that rich Bud. Maybe you could have had a prominent position in the military. Are you in an economic condition to lend money to large amounts of people and buy large amounts of bread and circus to buy votes?

I reckon he would have been.... :rolleyes:

[Ocean Seal]

This has to be one of the most disgusting things that I have seen in recent time, I can't stay silent about this. And I don't know why this isn't being given full coverage by the mainstream media. Get the word out comrades.

[ComradeMan]

This has to be one of the most disgusting things that I have seen in recent time, I can't stay silent about this. And I don't know why this isn't being given full coverage by the mainstream media. Get the word out comrades.

What- the OP?

Yes, it's wicked isn't it? I wonder why it was not on mainstream media when certain people were doing their Indonesia tour?

Thanks RedBrother! ;)

[Revolution starts with U]

No, he was talking about Bud being a senator... disgusting :mad:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[ComradeMan]

No, he was talking about Bud being a senator... disgusting :mad:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Bud would not have been a senator... if I had been... tribune of the people...;)

PS I did wonder, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt re the OP- however I am sure he would feel the same way anyway! :lol:

Let's remember guys, the OP is not a joke however.

[Ocean Seal]

Bud would not have been a senator... if I had been... tribune of the people...;)

PS I did wonder, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt re the OP- however I am sure he would feel the same way anyway! :lol:

Let's remember guys, the OP is not a joke however.
Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt, Yes I was referring to the OP, I didn't even read this far into the thread.

[ComradeMan]

Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt, Yes I was referring to the OP, I didn't even read this far into the thread.

Getting back to the point... funny how it's not in the media, with Obama going to Indonesia? :cool: