How bad can Captialism get?

[Hexen]

What is the worst case scenario how bad can Capitalism get in it's pinnacle? Is it fascism? Or is it something else?

[Manic Impressive]

fascism is pretty fucking horrendous but I wonder how bad a completely free market system could get. Completely unrestricted corporations allowed to do whatever they wanted in order to make a profit if allowed to evolve there could be nothing to keep them from repealing child labour laws or practically anything that workers struggles have won for us. If I keep thinking about how bad it could get I'll have nightmares :crying:

[Hexen]

fascism is pretty fucking horrendous but I wonder how bad a completely free market system could get. Completely unrestricted corporations allowed to do whatever they wanted in order to make a profit if allowed to evolve there could be nothing to keep them from repealing child labour laws or practically anything that workers struggles have won for us. If I keep thinking about how bad it could get I'll have nightmares :crying:

Scary thought is, could we be heading towards this way?

[Widerstand]

Privatized police, law and military.

Fuck yeah.

[Salyut]

Scary thought is, could we be heading towards this way?

Corporatism as opposed to anarcho-capitalism, and yes.

[Pretty Flaco]

The Industrial Revolution

[Property Is Robbery]

Anarcho-capitalism would be fucking frightening. Private police and more of a class rule than now. The American Libertarian party is the closest I think we'll come to this however.

[Thirsty Crow]

Anarcho-capitalism would be fucking frightening. Private police and more of a class rule than now. The American Libertarian party is the closest I think we'll come to this however.
There is absolutely no possibility whatsoever of historical direction which would take this route. Moreover, there are no latent tendencies at work present, and if there were, it would lend some credibility to this fear. But there are not, and no, internet propertarian warriors do not count as such.

The answer to OP's question is obvious: fascism.

[WeAreReborn]

There is absolutely no possibility whatsoever of historical direction which would take this route. Moreover, there are no latent tendencies at work present, and if there were, it would lend some credibility to this fear. But there are not, and no, internet propertarian warriors do not count as such.

The answer to OP's question is obvious: fascism.
No possibility of Anarcho-Capitalism? That is quite foolish. So I agree it won't happen anytime soon, that was not the question. I do agree Anarcho-Capitalism would be horrible. Business are the most morally void human made ideal ever. It would most likely cause mass slaughters and even more class enslavement. Bioshock somewhat comes to mind. :lol:

[Revolution starts with U]

Property being treated as the top priority. Those with can pay their way out of the law. Everybody rents from some small clique, or even a person that owns all the land and controls his own private defense force...
Feudalism is the answer you are looking for

[Thirsty Crow]

No possibility of Anarcho-Capitalism? That is quite foolish.
Why so? There are no manifest tendencies nowadays, and history has taught every "responsible" capitalist the lesson of state intervention during the period of systemic crisis. State intervention pays off in the long run and they know it.

[Victus Mortuum]

We are already nearly fascist in the United States. And I mean that seriously, not as an exaggeration.

[Property Is Robbery]

There is absolutely no possibility whatsoever of historical direction which would take this route. Moreover, there are no late

That's pretty much what I was saying..

Are you familiar with the Right wing Libertarian party?

[WeAreReborn]

Why so? There are no manifest tendencies nowadays, and history has taught every "responsible" capitalist the lesson of state intervention during the period of systemic crisis. State intervention pays off in the long run and they know it.
You are right tendencies aren't showing, which is fortunate. I just mean there is always some possibility and you should never rule it out, but you shouldn't worry either.

[People's War]

Anarcho-capitalism would be a fucking nightmare.

[Aurora]

No possibility of Anarcho-Capitalism? That is quite foolish.
Why? Anarcho-capitalism isnt even a real ideology, its just the laissez faire capitalism we used to have which was so unstable it led to world war, revolution and the great depression. I think Capitalism has a tendency to move towards more and more state intervention in the economy. We can see this in Europe where millions of workers are employed by the state. I'll try to find the Engels quote on the subject i found it really interesting, about how in capitalism social production comes into contradiction with private ownership.

We are already nearly fascist in the United States. And I mean that seriously, not as an exaggeration.
My god this crap just dosnt go away, we got this same bullshit when Bush was president left-leaning people who dont have a clue what fascism is insisting he was a fascist. Now Obama is president you have right-leaning people insisting he's a fascist. Get your head out of your ass ffs, dont you think its a tad insulting to compare everything you dont like to fascism?

[People's War]

The US is corporatist yes, and has become more so under Obama. But calling it fascist is a misuse of the word.

[Thirsty Crow]

The US is corporatist yes, and has become more so under Obama. But calling it fascist is a misuse of the word.
The US, regarding tis economy, is capitalist. Using the term "corporatist" only benefits some utopians who curse big corporations and would like to see a return to the economic model which has as its dominant class the petite bourgeoisie.
Moreover, after WW2, practically every developed capitalist nation was forced to go "corporatist", given the pressures of the organized working class and the existence of the socialist bloc. In this sense, this corporatism is a means of extinguishing the fire of class struggle.
After all, "corporatism" is capitalism, in fact. That is, this model still protects private property and the economy is still organized as generalized commodity production.

[bricolage]

We are already nearly fascist in the United States. And I mean that seriously, not as an exaggeration.
No. It is a complete exaggeration.

[chegitz guevara]

Nazi Germany is as bad as capitalism has gotten. It could get worse, I'm sure.

[chegitz guevara]

We are already nearly fascist in the United States. And I mean that seriously, not as an exaggeration.

I know what you mean. I was rounded up and sent to a death camp just this morning by the fascist government.

At least they have wifi. :thumbup1:

[Victus Mortuum]

Fascism, in my book, is defined by:

1) Authoritarianism
2) Corporatism
3) Nationalism

1) In the United States, there is relative authoritarianism, though not completely. The gestapo type bills that have passed in the last couple of decades should make this growing central power perfectly clear to anyone here. I didn't say the U.S. IS fascist, but that it is CLOSE.
2) The United States is fully corporatist. Political leaders sit down and have discussions with representatives of various segments of society: CEOs, Labor Union leaders, other "Special Interest" corporate groups. These groups' leaders come together and try to create a corporate harmony. - This is a FUNDAMENTAL fascist concept.
3) Americans are riding the nationalism ideology dangerously close to fascism. The unbelievable amount of propaganda and lies perpetrated by our government and mass media to get us to live in the fantasy world of American exceptionalism. Americans will do a lot of things for "America" as a nation because of this.

If you don't consider this close to fascism, then explain what you consider fascism to be.

[bricolage]

I wrote a post here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1901698&postcount=40) about why I don't think Israel is fascist and what I think fascism is, I reckon a lot of it can be applied to America. I know its lazy just referring to another post but I'm tired can't be bothered to do much else, apologies.

But quickly in regards to what you wrote I don't America is necessarily more authoritarian than lots of countries in the world and secondly regarding the nationalism, fascist nationalism ties the nation into the state, securing complete subservience to the state. In America right wing nationalism tends to be in favour of a small state and federal rule, something that is alien to fascism.

[Muzk]

"What I think fascism is"

"Fascism, in my book, is defined by"


....

There's a set definition for fascism. It's a whole ideology. It's not what you want it to be. Use only the cold, hard facts, that's whats on our side. Not rhetoric, not in the slightest.

[Zanthorus]

In America right wing nationalism tends to be in favour of a small state and federal rule, something that is alien to fascism.

Actually there have been strands of american fascism that have advocated a small state. Fascism tends to be heterogenous because it latches itself on to the mythology of whatever nation it exists in at the time. British fascists used to trace their roots back to the tudors and hold the tudor state up as an example of the fascist ideal.

[Victus Mortuum]

"What I think fascism is"

"Fascism, in my book, is defined by"

....

There's a set definition for fascism. It's a whole ideology. It's not what you want it to be. Use only the cold, hard facts, that's whats on our side. Not rhetoric, not in the slightest.

What is the "set definition of fascism" you claim? How do you know this? The definition I offered is encompassing of most accepted definitions out there. Actually offer a response. Have you taken the time to read fascist literature? Do you actually know what fascism is, or are you basing your this on your emotional response to the word?

[Victus Mortuum]

In America right wing nationalism tends to be in favour of a small state and federal rule, something that is alien to fascism.

I'm not talking about right wing nut jobs. I'm talking about ordinary citizens. Democrats, moderates, and republicans. Libertarians and 'socialists'. Our school system. Our media system. Our entertainment system. They all have American fuckin exceptionalism presupposed in -everything- they do.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Fascism is often loosely defined, but we can agree on the major components of a fascist state:

- Extreme Nationalism
- Militarism
- Imperialism
- Totalitarianism
- Authoritarianism
- Corporatism

What we must always note is that fascism is a capitalist reaction. It isn't always racist in it's nationalism, but it puts itself on the side of "God" in a fight between good and evil. Fascism is always capitalist, regardless of it's anti-capitalist rhetoric.

Is fascism as bad as capitalism can get? Yes. But what about anarcho-capitalism? Simple, it's end result is fascism, what else could come of such a system?

[CAleftist]

Fascism is the ugly result of capitalism collapsing without a strong left. That's why the left needs to take over from the capitalists.

[bricolage]

Actually there have been strands of american fascism that have advocated a small state.
But I'm not sure if we can really call that fascism then, for me one of the defining characteristics of fascism is the totalising state, to quote that same Mussolini quote again;

"The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people."


Fascism tends to be heterogenous because it latches itself on to the mythology of whatever nation it exists in at the time.
I would agree with this (obviously aided by the constructed national mythologies that have existed prior to the emergence of fascist groups), however to what end you use this mythology for isn't so heterogenous.

[bricolage]

I'm not talking about right wing nut jobs. I'm talking about ordinary citizens. Democrats, moderates, and republicans. Libertarians and 'socialists'. Our school system. Our media system. Our entertainment system. They all have American fuckin exceptionalism presupposed in -everything- they do.
I wasn't too sure what you meant by American exceptionalism so I checked the wikipedia page which starts;

American exceptionalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exceptionalism) is an American theory that the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)immigrants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrants). The occupies a special role among the nations of the world in terms of its national ethos, political and religious institutions, and its being built by immigrants.

And I reckon (taking out the bit about immigrants) you could apply the same thing to the UK when it was an imperial power... and probably a whole other bunch of countries too. It doesn't mean the country is fascist.

[chegitz guevara]

Fascism, in my book, is defined by:

I don't have your book.


If you don't consider this close to fascism, then explain what you consider fascism to be.

I think there's a reasonably simple test any revolutionary can use to determine if they are in a fascist country. Here it is.

Are you alive? If the answer is "yes," you do not live in a fascist country.

If the answer is "no," you're lying.

Fascism does not suffer revolutionaries to live. The whole purpose of fascism is to crush the revolutionary movement absolutely.

I could go into a lot deeper detail, but I'm stealing time from my boss. ;)

[L.A.P.]

Even worse than fascism. Imagine a private company being your authority and controls the police, military, fire department, schools, and every other aspect of your life. It would be a mix of autocracy, imperialism, and fascism. If you really want to see a Libertarians wet dream put into practice of private companies without intervention of the public, government, etc. just look at organized crime and the mafia.

[Victus Mortuum]

I wasn't too sure what you meant by American exceptionalism so I checked the wikipedia page which starts;

American exceptionalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exceptionalism) is an American theory that the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)immigrants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrants). The occupies a special role among the nations of the world in terms of its national ethos, political and religious institutions, and its being built by immigrants.

And I reckon (taking out the bit about immigrants) you could apply the same thing to the UK when it was an imperial power... and probably a whole other bunch of countries too. It doesn't mean the country is fascist.

American Exceptionalism is the belief that America is the true representative of democracy in the world, that America is the only true free nation in the world, that America alone can make sovereign international decisions and that everyone else should have to check it with the U.N., that America is the best ever. This frame is propagated in almost all of the U.S. media, entertainment, and school system. This is a very nearly fascist state of propaganda. Again, I didn't say the U.S. was fascist, but that it was/is close.


I don't have your book.

I think there's a reasonably simple test any revolutionary can use to determine if they are in a fascist country. Here it is.

Are you alive? If the answer is "yes," you do not live in a fascist country.

If the answer is "no," you're lying.

Fascism does not suffer revolutionaries to live. The whole purpose of fascism is to crush the revolutionary movement absolutely.

I could go into a lot deeper detail, but I'm stealing time from my boss. ;)

That is a way over-simplified definition of fascism. However, I think it speaks to the point I made that the U.S. is -close- to fascism. The terms communism and socialism are political suicide in most parts of the U.S. (with some minor exceptions, of course) given that most people think that Communism means TOTALITARIAN OVERLORDZ!!!11!

[bricolage]

American Exceptionalism is the belief that America is the true representative of democracy in the world, that America is the only true free nation in the world, that America alone can make sovereign international decisions and that everyone else should have to check it with the U.N., that America is the best ever. This frame is propagated in almost all of the U.S. media, entertainment, and school system. This is a very nearly fascist state of propaganda. Again, I didn't say the U.S. was fascist, but that it was/is close.
Lots of countries think like this, because America is in a more privileged position within the world system it becomes more obvious but I definitely don't think such a belief equates to fascism.

given that most people think that Communism means TOTALITARIAN OVERLORDZ!!!11!Yeah but it doesn't end up with you surrounded by barbed wire.

[Manic Impressive]

Fascism is often loosely defined, but we can agree on the major components of a fascist state:

- Extreme Nationalism
- Militarism
- Imperialism
- Totalitarianism
- Authoritarianism
- Corporatism

What we must always note is that fascism is a capitalist reaction. It isn't always racist in it's nationalism, but it puts itself on the side of "God" in a fight between good and evil. Fascism is always capitalist, regardless of it's anti-capitalist rhetoric.

Is fascism as bad as capitalism can get? Yes. But what about anarcho-capitalism? Simple, it's end result is fascism, what else could come of such a system?

I don't see the end result being fascism although it may share some of the same tenets. With an evolved system of anarcho-capitalism surely the corporation if unchecked and unhindered would end up replacing the state. Imagine private armies fighting wars between Coca-Cola ltd and General Electric for resources and labour.

[chegitz guevara]

That is a way over-simplified definition of fascism. However, I think it speaks to the point I made that the U.S. is -close- to fascism. The terms communism and socialism are political suicide in most parts of the U.S. (with some minor exceptions, of course) given that most people think that Communism means TOTALITARIAN OVERLORDZ!!!11!

No shit it was way over simplified. But it was also accurate.

The U.S. isn't anywhere close to a fascist government. The capitalists have no need of it. We're no threat. The workers are no threat. The ruling sector of the capitalist class is not only making profits by the boat load, but the state is just handing them $600 billion.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I don't see the end result being fascism although it may share some of the same tenets. With an evolved system of anarcho-capitalism surely the corporation if unchecked and unhindered would end up replacing the state. Imagine private armies fighting wars between Coca-Cola ltd and General Electric for resources and labour.

Someone will reform the government. It will happen with the most monopolized private security firm and it's corporate allies.

It will be the capitalist reaction to lack of government.

[The Count]

There's no question that we already saw the worst of Capitalism in the Industrial Revolution. Europe was ruled over by totalitarian governments (actually totalitarian, as in we'd all be thrown in jail or exiled if they found out we were posting about Communism), working conditions were the worst in history (children working in coal mines, no labor laws whatsoever, etc.) and it was the period with the greatest gap between the rich and the poor.

[RadioRaheem84]

But is it ever going to be bad for nations at the center of global capitalism?

But bad enough to warrant revolution?

I highly doubt it.

I picture the United States to end up like Chile.

A nation where lassiez faire is king but there is still a less than modest enough social base to keep people from fully boiling to anything more than sharp complaining. People live paycheck to paycheck, but still subsist. It reminds me of a Poland.

[Thirsty Crow]

So you doubt that the material conditions will be favourable for a revolutionary transformation of society
And what is left? Why do we even bother then?
Should we abandon the revolutionary principle? Maybe abandon the goal of communism altogether?
What should we do, then?

[The Count]

But is it ever going to be bad for nations at the center of global capitalism?

But bad enough to warrant revolution?

I highly doubt it.

I picture the United States to end up like Chile.

A nation where lassiez faire is king but there is still a less than modest enough social base to keep people from fully boiling to anything more than sharp complaining. People live paycheck to paycheck, but still subsist. It reminds me of a Poland.
There's no way that the United States is heading towards a Free Market system. Government intervention in the American economy has become increasingly prevalent over time.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

"How bad can capitalism get?"

Seriously? I dont think it has any limmits. Think about WWII, starvation, the maffia, slavery, trading with human boddys dead or alive. And this is the world we live in and what we want to stop.

[Il Medico]

socialisme ou barbarie

[RadioRaheem84]

Government intervention in the American economy has become increasingly prevalent over time.

To benefit the rich maybe. But de-regulation has been even more prevalent. They socialize the risks but privatize the gains.

Please do not tell me you believe that the system we have here is too "socialist"?

[RadioRaheem84]

So you doubt that the material conditions will be favourable for a revolutionary transformation of society
And what is left? Why do we even bother then?
Should we abandon the revolutionary principle? Maybe abandon the goal of communism altogether?
What should we do, then?


I doubt that at this stage that most ruling classes actually want total destitution out of countries they deem worthy. A nation like Chile, Poland or even the US will not be in total destitution again circa 1930s. But people will likewise not mind working paycheck to paycheck.

The material conditions are already ripe. How much more ripe do they need to be?

People were ready for revolution when things were the best 'economically' for the working class (the 60s, early 70s). Things should be even more ripe for revolution. The working class has just been weakened and now fears to lose even the little they've built up.

It's our job to let people know, to awaken them to just how bad things really are instead of allowing people to go to that defense mechanism cushion of, "it could be worse". It is worse!

[Reznov]

I wonder, is it ultimately inevitable for there to be one corporation to end up being the most powerful in a system and society like this?

I mean, wouldn't other corporations being fighitng against each other until there a select few who are the most powerful, and then they reach almost a standstill with die-hards loyal to each one.

I almost think of it like world war 2, and I can actually picture how these corporations would end up breaking apart not only America but end up forming almost their own goverments?

[RadioRaheem84]

I see it as more like WWI.

The power vacuum is being filled by regional superpowers like China, the EU and the States.

[The Count]

To benefit the rich maybe. But de-regulation has been even more prevalent. They socialize the risks but privatize the gains.

Please do not tell me you believe that the system we have here is too "socialist"?
Well of course it's to benefit the rich. I find your question insulting; the answer is no.

[RadioRaheem84]

Soz :blushing:

[Rusty Shackleford]

Anarcho-capitalism would be a fucking nightmare.
It would be because its all a dream. its impossible to exist.

[The Count]

Soz :blushing:
Haha, no problem. I wasn't that deeply offended.