Remembrance Sunday

[mick.jones29]

This time of year is approaching again and i would like to canvas views on this, also put in my own view.

Sometimes this seems to cause division on the left, from those who want to respect the dead through wearing a poppy to those who strongly disagree with wars and would rather not.

I take the view that wearing a poppy symbolises support for the military , establishment, and endorses the state terrorism that the west is responsible for. I DO respect our dead, in fact all the dead in wars equally. I must take tremendous courage to face up to an enemy putting your life on the line. But i also think it would take much greater courage to refuse to fight and walk away as some did in the 1st world war.

War to me is pure madness, we should pay less interest in imperial ambitions to feed our pompous ruling classes, when there's a real fight to be fought and its battleground is the class divide.

I would be more than happy to wear a symbol, or attend a ceremony remembering the dead under a banner of peace and pacifism.

Mick.

[Manic Impressive]

I won't wear one again, to me soldiers as police are class traitors. They abandon the proletariat in order to get paid it's an easy way out. I do pity them and acknowledge that it is not entirely their fault due to a shit education system and the lack of meaningful employment elsewhere. They display no class conciousness and are generally the most deluded section of the working class fighting for queen and country makes me sick. However this obviously does not count in times of conscription.

I think instead of having something symbolizing those who died protecting bourgois interests we should have something commemorating those who have died because of poverty.

[hatzel]

I'm wearing a poppy, for sure. But that's just because I'm very much opposed to pinning the actions of the military, as an institution, on the soldiers themselves, who are just doing as they're told, as terms of their employment, and I do believe that the vast majority do it due because they feel they're willing to sacrifice themselves, striving for some goal, which could also be applied to many of those who take up armed struggle in revolutions. I mean, the actual giving of money to the appeal I see as totally acceptable for anybody, as there's nothing at all shameful about giving money to such a cause. Of course soldiers, wounded or otherwise, need rehabilitation, prosthetic limbs, psychological support, as do the families of those lost in war. And these things don't appear out of nowhere, so donating to this charity, then, doesn't strike me as morally questionable, just the wearing of the poppy. And me, I'd feel terrible hypocritical if I decided not to, and then some Hitler figure reappeared over in Germany and decided to come over and invade us or something. "Oh, yeah...I know that I flatly refused to show solidarity with you when high command had told you to go out to Afghanistan and stuff, but...well, yeah, can you kind of...stop the fascists coming over and killing us?" I mean, irrespective of what they are currently doing, and where, they're still the ones who would technically be there fighting and dying on the front line if the front line just so happened to be just north of Maidstone...so, just in case Mr Hitler (or Sarkozy) decides to pay us a visit next year (you never know!), I'm covering all bases :thumbup1:

[Wanted Man]

Sometimes this seems to cause division on the left, from those who want to respect the dead through wearing a poppy to those who strongly disagree with wars and would rather not.

Seriously?

[Leonid Brozhnev]

As much I respect self sacrifice, the context in which self sacrifice is made is just as important. The Royal Legion doesn't aim to end war, it gains money through Nationalism, the glorification of soldiers and perpetuating the aims of the state by almost alleviating them of any culpability.

[Manic Impressive]

I'm wearing a poppy, for sure. But that's just because I'm very much opposed to pinning the actions of the military, as an institution, on the soldiers themselves, who are just doing as they're told, as terms of their employment, and I do believe that the vast majority do it due because they feel they're willing to sacrifice themselves, striving for some goal, which could also be applied to many of those who take up armed struggle in revolutions.

You could apply that to the bourgeoisie or fascists they're only doing what they're told. Seriously your typical bourge is only doing what they've been taught and they've been taught that exploiting others for profit is the right thing to do. Soldiers have been taught that nationalism and imperialism is acceptable so they believe they are doing the right thing by joining up and killing some "towel heads".

[bricolage]

The Poppy Appeal (http://www.poppy.org.uk/) is once again subverting Armistice Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_Day). A day that should be about peace and remembrance is turned into a month-long drum roll of support for current wars. This year's campaign has been launched with showbiz hype. The true horror and futility of war is forgotten and ignored.
The public are being urged to wear a poppy in support of "our Heroes" (http://www.poppy.org.uk/remembrance/our-heroes-messageboard). There is nothing heroic about being blown up in a vehicle. There is nothing heroic about being shot in an ambush and there is nothing heroic about fighting in an unnecessary conflict.
Remembrance should be marked with the sentiment "Never Again".
Ben Griffin (Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/afghanistan), Iraq)
Ben Hayden (Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Iraq)
Terry Wood (Northern Ireland, Falklands)
Ken Lukowiak (Northern Ireland, Falklands)
Neil Polley (Falklands)
Steve Pratt (Dhofar, Northern Ireland)http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/05/poppies-and-heroes-remembrance-day

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I don't wear poppies or support the drive to sell/spread poppies for the reason that i'm against imperialism and it's wars.

However, I do take a moment on Remembrance Sunday to think about those who were sent to their deaths 1914-1918 in a horrible clash between imperialist powers, and of those who bravely fought off Fascism 1939-45, those in the French Resistance and finally and perhaps most importantly, those brave Soviet soldiers and civilians who perhaps did the most of any, to defeat the Fascists.

[bricolage]

http://i.imgur.com/CXm26.jpg

[Dr Mindbender]

I won't wear one again, to me soldiers as police are class traitors.
You do know many of the WW1 tommies were conscripts right?

[Manic Impressive]

No shit, obviously conscription is totally different, modern soldiers have a choice the soldiers of WW1 and 2 didn't in fact if they refused they would be put in jail.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

http://i.imgur.com/CXm26.jpg

This has all the Nationalist dickheads wound up something stupid. Thanks Celtic. :lol:

[Dr Mindbender]

No shit, obviously conscription is totally different, modern soldiers have a choice the soldiers of WW1 and 2 didn't in fact if they refused they would be put in jail.

I agree, 99% of the ones out in afghanistan are shithawks and brainwashed idiots the lot of em. I dont pity them one iota. When i found out in my work they were collecting charity money for 'help for heroes[sic]' I kicked up a stink about it and almost got sent home.

If anything im considering setting up a charity for the taliban.

[Rafiq]

I have much respect for the Proletarian Soldiers who have died throughout history, fighting for the interests of their capitalist masters, brainwashed, or forced to fight.

It takes more courage to desert your battle then to keep on fighting.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I agree, 99% of the ones out in afghanistan are shithawks and brainwashed idiots the lot of em. I dont pity them one iota. When i found out in my work they were collecting charity money for 'help for heroes[sic]' I kicked up a stink about it and almost got sent home.

If anything im considering setting up a charity for the taliban.

Why's that? Are they on our side? Are they against the opium of the masses too?:rolleyes:

[IndependentCitizen]

I wear a poppy for the rememberance of those who served in world war 2, and that's it. Whilst I can sympathise with those who have lost their lives, or been injured. I will not give money to them, or to an organisation that will glorify what they were doing. If this makes sense.

[I.Drink.Your.Milkshake]

I always thought the poppies were a symbol of rememberance of dead soldiers and civilians on both sides? Which is why, generally, in the past ive supported it.

I agree with that guardian article, though. It has been co-opted to drum up support for current wars, which is cynical and disgusting.

[Pavlov's House Party]

I won't wear one again, to me soldiers as police are class traitors. They abandon the proletariat in order to get paid it's an easy way out. I do pity them and acknowledge that it is not entirely their fault due to a shit education system and the lack of meaningful employment elsewhere. They display no class conciousness and are generally the most deluded section of the working class fighting for queen and country makes me sick. However this obviously does not count in times of conscription.

I think instead of having something symbolizing those who died protecting bourgois interests we should have something commemorating those who have died because of poverty.

In the First World War and WWII, most enlisted men in every army were conscripted. They had no choice in the chaos they were thrown into, and I think it`s worth remembering the countless workers slaughtered by imperialism.

[human strike]

I'm not entirely sure what practical purpose Remembrance Day really serves. I think all are agreed that war is bad and horrific, but it seems those who are most concerned about remembering the fallen are also the ones most supportive of military action and more war today. It seems paradoxical until you realise that these people are often not commemorating the individuals and their memory, but how they died and the thing they died for i.e. war and the nation.

The United States became obsessed with the soldiers of the Civil War and self-sacrifice, and not just the soldiers of the Union, but Confederate soldiers too, towards the end of the 19th century. An entire militarist culture evolved. The largest period of US expansionism followed in the form of the Spanish-American War. I'm not suggesting US imperialism was the result of a culture of glorifying soldiers, but I am suggesting that the above is not a coincidence.

I am very skeptical and suspicious of those who treat poppies and Remembrance Day with fanatical reverence and respect, not because I do not appreciate why and how millions of young men died and the catastrophic tragedy that that is (I assure you appreciate it all too well), but because I suspect they do not truly appreciate it.

More and more we are seeing the soldiers in Afghanistan treated as heroes. The media is in love with the soldier. It portrays brave young men making ultimate sacrifices and heralds this. It's sidelining issues about why they are being asked to do the unaskable and whether they should be doing it at all. If you truly support the boys (and they are often, too often, just boys) in Afghanistan would you not wish them come home rather than continue risking their lives or physical and mental well-being? More and more we are seeing as the death toll rises a reverence towards "Remembrance" - just look at the outcry to the poppy burning incident. I don't find this heart warming - I find this disturbing. Fuck praising them. Fuck remembering them. Fuck medals. Bring them home! End the death, misery and destruction already. That would truly be appreciating them!

It's almost as if we're mocking them when we talk about the horror of war whilst not ending the war we insist they fight. We're treating them like idiots, which reminds me of the recruitment campaigns. Jesus the recruitment ads! Don't get me started on those.

I don't wear a poppy.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

All the poppy represents for me, is that our society values the blood of our own brothers and sisters more than we value the blood of the brothers and sisters we are out killing across the world.

I wont wear a poppy and it makes me sick to see them. Its fucking nationalist, imperialist bullshit that promotes the sending of trained murderers to poor countries and inflicting terror upon them, for reasons beyond the majority of their control.

I value the lives of those poor bastards who have been sent, and the poor bastards there who are taking the bullets, and I want to wear no thing that promotes any of that imperialistic madness.