Why does some people call the lumpen for scum?

[EvilRedGuy]

Aren't we supposed to show solidarity with the working (both working or reserve/invalid/can't find a job workers) and the homeless and those who has to resort to criminality(the lumpen-proletariat?).

I just find it weired and kinda sick how the peoples here are against the lumpen-proletariat like they have done anything, infact they need a classless society more than any other class if they are even gonna survive. I just don't get it.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

In the liberal world we are living in, evry persons conditions are explained by individual choisess, so many belive that the lumpen proletarians have decided to live like they do. Also, i know many workers with average living standards tend to pick down at the lumpen and beliving that they are parasiting on theire labour, rather then the borgeousie.

[Crypto-Fascist]

The lumpenproles are victims of society, not the devils of chaos. What things have been said against them? I'd like to try my hand at quenching some myths or maybe learning things.

[iwwforever]

There are many new disabled vets returning from the occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan.Just like in the 70's when the disabled veterans were returning from Vietnam, we have a new push in the U.S. to hire people with disablities.

Not only are there not enough jobs for the able bodied population, corporations are given tax breaks to keep the disabled from getting social security.

The people who don't buy into the parasite idea are told that disabled people will feel normal and accepted if only they could have a slave wage job. Like daily life is not hard enough for a disabled person already.

[Manic Impressive]

The lumpen proletariat are a class who have interests in maintaining capitalism. Like the petit bourgeois some may assist the working class in a revolution. This does not include homeless, unemployed and certainly not the disabled. I would describe the lumpen as drug dealers, pimps and alike. Basically those who make a living through means that damage society in one way or another but do not own the means of production.

I'd like to know where any of you got the idea that they were the homeless, unemployed or disabled.

[Le Corsaire Rouge]

Historically, the lumpenproletariat have formed the backbone of fascistic paramilitary groups. In addition, they do not make even a provisional attempt to hold to the bargain "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need". Note that "lumpenproletariat" isn't about people who are unemployed or homeless through no fault of their own: Marx defined them as "the refuse of all classes, [including] swindlers, confidence tricksters, brothel-keepers, rag-and-bone merchants, beggars, and other flotsam of society". These are not workers but people who, like capitalists, make their living from the exploitation of others and don't care about it, but the lumpenproletariat do so on a very small scale. During the revolution it seems likely that the lumpenproletariat will largely side with the capitalist classes, because of the emphasis that they place on immediate gratification and their refusal to engage in class solidarity with the wider proletariat. Really, the lumpenproletariat are poor capitalists with lower sights, and a failed capitalist will usually slot neatly into the lumpenproletariat just as a successful lumpenproletarian segues seamlessly into the capitalist classes.

Read Marx's The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/) which talks in some detail about the lumpenproletariat in action.

[Pirate Utopian]

How does your average low level criminal (cornerboys, shoplifters, muggers, beggars, etc.) have an interest in keeping capitalism alive?

Most of them are in the situation they are in because they were so fucked by capitalism.

[scarletghoul]

The lumpen can swing both ways, really. That's the only conclusion that can be drawn from a look at lumpen history. The Panthers are obviously the greatest example of mobilisation of the lumpen. They actually believed that the lumpen were the vanguard of the revolution, due to the lumpenisation of the US due to advancing technology and less need for manual labour. In practice this has been proven half-wrong. Although there is a huge expansion of the lumpenproletariat in modern capitalism and lumpenisation of many workers, there are still traditional proletarians too. Also the black panther party was highly susceptible to sabotage and infiltration, precisely because of the lumpen character of its members.

In short I think the lumpen can and should be brought onto the side of revolution (though not the big lumpen like druglords etc), but they are not the vanguard and should be under proletarian leadership. Still, they are a huge mass of revolutionary potential and it would be wrong to ignore them, otherwise the reactionaries will get them on their side

[Die Neue Zeit]

Historically, the lumpenproletariat have formed the backbone of fascistic paramilitary groups. In addition, they do not make even a provisional attempt to hold to the bargain "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need". Note that "lumpenproletariat" isn't about people who are unemployed or homeless through no fault of their own: Marx defined them as "the refuse of all classes, [including] swindlers, confidence tricksters, brothel-keepers, rag-and-bone merchants, beggars, and other flotsam of society". These are not workers but people who, like capitalists, make their living from the exploitation of others and don't care about it, but the lumpenproletariat do so on a very small scale. During the revolution it seems likely that the lumpenproletariat will largely side with the capitalist classes, because of the emphasis that they place on immediate gratification and their refusal to engage in class solidarity with the wider proletariat. Really, the lumpenproletariat are poor capitalists with lower sights, and a failed capitalist will usually slot neatly into the lumpenproletariat just as a successful lumpenproletarian segues seamlessly into the capitalist classes.

Read Marx's The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/) which talks in some detail about the lumpenproletariat in action.

There are three underclasses:

1) Proper lumpenproletariat (like prostitutes where prostitution is illegal, and low-level gangsters)
2) Lumpen-bourgeoisie (like pimps and gang lords)
3) Lumpen or lumpen-scum (the main subject of your post)

The biggest lumpen formations to be found, which turns Maoism-Third Worldism upside down, are masses in Saudi Arabia and a few other petroleum states. They don't work, receiving "basic income" and similar welfare stuff from the state which, in cahoots with any present private oil companies, exploits guest workers.

[Le Corsaire Rouge]

How does your average low level criminal (cornerboys, shoplifters, muggers, beggars, etc.) have an interest in keeping capitalism alive?

Most of them are in the situation they are in because they were so fucked by capitalism.
I can see why you'd think that, comrade. But whereas an ordinary proletarian in a dire economic strait takes a low-level job in a supermarket or a fast food joint, the lumpenproletarian chooses a parasitic life of crime, exploiting others - this is perhaps done through psychological scarring or peer pressure, but it is chosen nonetheless. This kind of activity, the activity to which these people have an evidenced proclivity, would be impossible in an orderly communist society. It is only possible in pre-socialist societies. In fact, the lumpenproletarian approach is almost the same as capitalist-imperialist activity, but on a smaller scale. Like rats, they exist in the gaps, gaps created by oppressive inequality. This is why the lumpenproletariat flourishes in fasco-corporatist societies.



In short I think the lumpen can and should be brought onto the side of revolution (though not the big lumpen like druglords etc), but they are not the vanguard and should be under proletarian leadership. Still, they are a huge mass of revolutionary potential and it would be wrong to ignore them, otherwise the reactionaries will get them on their side
The lumpenproletariat can only be co-opted for the revolution to at most the extent to which the lower bourgeois classes can be co-opted, as subsidiary allies who need constant proletarian supervision and education in case of recidivism. However, I suspect, like Marx, that the lumpenproletarian revolutionary potential is far lower, because of their essential fascistic tendencies, and because of their parasitic dependence on the bourgeois capitalists' willingness to overlook their activities and ultimately provide patronage in time of need.

[Manic Impressive]

There are three underclasses:

1) Proper lumpenproletariat (like prostitutes where prostitution is illegal, and low-level gangsters)
2) Lumpen-bourgeoisie (like pimps and gang lords)
3) Lumpen or lumpen-scum (the main subject of your post)

The biggest lumpen formations to be found, which turns Maoism-Third Worldism upside down, are masses in Saudi Arabia and a few other petroleum states. They don't work, receiving "basic income" and similar welfare stuff from the state which, in cahoots with any present private oil companies, exploits guest workers.

I'd never heard the term Lumpen-bourgeoisie before so I looked it up and it does not refer to pimps and gang lords but rather a bourgeois in Latin America who supported their colonial masters.

[F9]

Why?Cause people despite their claims, when holding this ideas they are nothing more than idiots but firstly reactionaries .
So anyone with this kind of ideas can fuck himself, he aint a comrade of mine.

[Pirate Utopian]

I can see why you'd think that, comrade. But whereas an ordinary proletarian in a dire economic strait takes a low-level job in a supermarket or a fast food joint, the lumpenproletarian chooses a parasitic life of crime, exploiting others - this is perhaps done through psychological scarring or peer pressure, but it is chosen nonetheless. This kind of activity, the activity to which these people have an evidenced proclivity, would be impossible in an orderly communist society. It is only possible in pre-socialist societies. In fact, the lumpenproletarian approach is almost the same as capitalist-imperialist activity, but on a smaller scale. Like rats, they exist in the gaps, gaps created by oppressive inequality. This is why the lumpenproletariat flourishes in fasco-corporatist societies.
If you buy drugs from a small dopedealer who is he exploiting? Chances are he's working for a bigger drugbaron type. Selling his, albeit illegal, labor.

Although they make more money than low-level jobs in supermarkets and such it's hardly more than your average worker. Plus most, not all, of these low-level cases arent doing crime because they enjoy it, it's really the only viable option for them in some cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgNK_r47TOc

I realise their position as lumpen is dependant on the existance of capitalism. But I don't think many of them want to be lumpen.
They are however disorganised and that's why fascists have been able to persuade them with fancy talk. I think the left is doing itself a disadvantage if they totally ignore the lumpenproletariat because that's what gives way for them to go to the other side.

[Dimentio]

What are the homeless, the mentally disabled and unemployed counted as?

[EvilRedGuy]

I'd like to know that too. Or do we use the 3 lower classes, REAL lumpenproletariat, lumpen-bourgeois(druglords, etc.), and lumpen-scum (if thats even the real name :laugh:)

[Manic Impressive]

What are the homeless, the mentally disabled and unemployed counted as?

The homeless could be counted as lumpen but in my opinion they shouldn't be. The unemployed are part of the reserve pool of labour unemployment exists in order to keep competition for jobs high and wages low they are proletarian, I don't see how you could possibly define them as anything else unless you think that receiving unemployment benefits from the state makes you a beggar? Some disabled people own the means of production so they would be bourgeois some are petit bourgeois and many will be proletarian. Unless you are talking about those who are so severely disabled that they cannot work and will never be able to realise class conciousness then I don't know but they do not make a living from exploiting others so should not be classed as lumpen.


I'd like to know that too. Or do we use the 3 lower classes, REAL lumpenproletariat, lumpen-bourgeois(druglords, etc.), and lumpen-scum (if thats even the real name :laugh:)

These three classes are made up although lumpen-bourgeois sounds good and fits quite well it has a completely different meaning than what we are talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenbourgeoisie

[Die Neue Zeit]

I'd never heard the term Lumpen-bourgeoisie before so I looked it up and it does not refer to pimps and gang lords but rather a bourgeois in Latin America who supported their colonial masters.

The terms I used were suggested by the RevLeft poster-comrade More Fire to the People to distinguish the underclasses. The applicability of "lumpen-bourgeoisie" in the Latin American context isn't and shouldn't be as prominent as the Maoist term "comprador bourgeoisie."

[Die Neue Zeit]

What are the homeless, the mentally disabled and unemployed counted as?

The lifestyle beggar-homeless (working poor can be homeless for short periods of time, so they don't count) are part of the lumpen-scum. The completely mentally disabled (and even completely physically disabled) generally can't side with or against revolution, so that's a harder one.

The unemployed (if you're not referring to the long-term unemployed) are part of the "class of flux," which isn't really a class at all.

[Pirate Utopian]

DNZ, what do you mean by "lumpenscum"? What is the difference between them and lumpenproles?

[iwwforever]

Helen Keller was a disabled revolutionary.

[Crypto-Fascist]

Hrm, I was actually lead to believe that the Lumpenproletariat referred to all lower class people: Mexican immigrants who work for paltry sums, desperate men who wind up in a hell of drugs and are forced to steal for food and feeding addictions brought about by trying the local product that helps them escape the reality of poverty.

A lot of swindlers could be more than likely be mentally faulted and more tragic.

[Manic Impressive]

The terms I used were suggested by the RevLeft poster-comrade More Fire to the People to distinguish the underclasses. The applicability of "lumpen-bourgeoisie" in the Latin American context isn't and shouldn't be as prominent as the Maoist term "comprador bourgeoisie."

I do like the term and I think it fits quite well in this context. What I don't like is the hijacking of a term which means something entirely different as this only causes confusion.

I also object to calling the homeless lumpen scum having been homeless myself for short periods of time. Even though personally I would not fall under that category by your definition from personal experience there are very few people who are homeless by choice, I would go so far as to say it is a minute percentage of those who are homeless. I'm also going to go against Marx's definition and say that he was wrong to include beggars and rag and bone men in his definition of lumpenproletariat.

Do they have the ability to gain enough class conciousness to become revolutionary? Yes

Do they make their living exploiting others and being detrimental to society? perhaps in some cases

Do they have a vested interest in maintaining a capitalist system? hell no

Also what have you got against the long term unemployed? In areas of most former industrial countries I would expect to find large pockets of people who have been unemployed for long periods of time due to the out sourcing of jobs for cheaper labour, North of England would be one and I have read that their is a similar problem in East Germany where there are no jobs in former industrial towns and cities. Really I thought only conservatives would take the opinion that these people are scroungers.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ I've got nothing against the long-term unemployed. Read up Hyman Minsky, L. Randall Wray, and their (structural and cyclical) zero unemployment program for a solution to the woes.


DNZ, what do you mean by "lumpenscum"? What is the difference between them and lumpenproles?

"Professional" beggars vs. low-level gangsters and even, where illegal, prostitutes: one group is committed to some form of wage labour, even illegal, as a means of survival - the other isn't.

Nobody has yet discussed my anti-Third Worldism musings on the exploitation of guest workers in rentier states by private companies and by entire masses of lumpen-scum and their rulers.

[EvilRedGuy]

"Professional" beggars? So who cares if they are professional at begging, good for them they are homeless they have no other choice, and they are more exploited than anyone else. Or have i misunderstod?

[Robocommie]

"Professional" beggars? So who cares if they are professional at begging, good for them they are homeless they have no other choice, and they are more exploited than anyone else. Or have i misunderstod?

This isn't true of all of them, but there are panhandlers who actually make pretty decent livings by appearing to be worse off than they really are. They big in the streets for loose change and then go home to apartments and cars.

Obviously that's not true of everyone you meet on the street asking for cash, maybe even most of them, but for an annoying amount of them it is.

[Victus Mortuum]

In my area, most people who are on the street begging for money are professional beggars who live well off of donations. There are food pantries, soup kitchens, shelters, government programs and such for people who need those things. I know one guy whose wife drops him off on the street corner on her way to work - it is his "job". These types of people are the bottom equivalent of the bourgeois.

[Le Corsaire Rouge]

These types of people are the bottom equivalent of the bourgeois.
Exactly.

[Rakhmetov]

If you are a lumpen feeding off the ill-gotten money robbed from the working class then you are no better than a capitalist vulture!

If you are a lumpen feeding off stolen money from the capitalist class then you are a revolutionary and a true friend of the working class.

:thumbup:

[Robocommie]

Hooray for Robin Hood, basically.

You know during the Great Depression, John Dillinger used to knock off banks and people thought he was like a folk hero, because times were so rough. But I don't think he even gave money to the poor, he just kept it. Imagine if Dillinger had been openly socialist while he did his schtick, and did give out cash to the poor.

[Obs]

Aren't we supposed to show solidarity with the working (both working or reserve/invalid/can't find a job workers) and the homeless and those who has to resort to criminality(the lumpen-proletariat?).
Using crime to sustain yourself does not necessarily make you lumpen. If you're a worker and a thief, for instance, you belong to the working class regardless - likewise, a prostitute working for a pimp is a worker, even if the law claims she's the one committing a crime.

[Rakhmetov]

Using crime to sustain yourself does not necessarily make you lumpen. If you're a worker and a thief, for instance, you belong to the working class regardless - likewise, a prostitute working for a pimp is a worker, even if the law claims she's the one committing a crime.


You are a worker if you produce goods and services. Pray enlighten me ... what is the prostitute creating?--- orgasms!?? I don' think that is what Marx envisioned. :confused:

[Obs]

You are a worker if you produce goods and services. Pray enlighten me ... what is the prostitute creating?--- orgasms!?? I don' think that is what Marx envisioned. :confused:
Would you argue that prostitution is not a service?

[Tavarisch_Mike]

You are a worker if you produce goods and services. Pray enlighten me ... what is the prostitute creating?--- orgasms!?? I don' think that is what Marx envisioned. :confused:

Thtas right you said it. :cool:

[Widerstand]

You are a worker if you produce goods and services. Pray enlighten me ... what is the prostitute creating?--- orgasms!?? I don' think that is what Marx envisioned. :confused:

I see no reason why sex can't be seen as a service.

[EvilRedGuy]

I just want to know if we are together with lumpen-proletariat or ont? Because then i don't get why peoples call them scum when its no fault other than the Bourgeois(and the Illegale Bourgeois, known as the mafia leaders, druglords, etc.) Im sorry if these questions are stupid i just wan't to know once and once for all if we are comletely ignore the revolutionary potential in the homeless. Its sad.

[Manic Impressive]

I just want to know if we are together with lumpen-proletariat or ont? Because then i don't get why peoples call them scum when its no fault other than the Bourgeois(and the Illegale Bourgeois, known as the mafia leaders, druglords, etc.) Im sorry if these questions are stupid i just wan't to know once and once for all if we are comletely ignore the revolutionary potential in the homeless. Its sad.

The question is whether or not they are with us, some will some won't. Organized crime leaders and drug dealers are lumpenproletariat not the bourgeoisie that's why they are called scum. Marx includes Beggars and rag and bone men (people who collect unwanted goods and resell them) I think Marx was wrong saying these people were not in the same class as the rest of the workers but in the strictest definition of class neither of those occupations have value extracted from their labour by someone else, they have no boss.
Personally I think it may have been a bit of snobbery on the part of Marx but hey no one is perfect.

[punisa]

A couple of people here claim that capitalism is the only reason why some people choose a career that of crime and other illegal activities.
I find these claims rather disturbing.

Glorifying everything and everyone that is not a big fat capitalism will produce a rather surreal image of the world.

My definition of lumpen is scum.
Drug dealers in this city drive around in Ferrari cars, so do the pimps and other criminals.
Capitalism is perfect for them and they are its parasites.
They are usually extreme right wing in ideology and were the first in line when socialism was ready to be taken down in eastern Europe.

This does not include people who were denied or could not get work - mainly homeless, (some) prostitutes, (some) thieves etc.

[bricolage]

Drug dealers in this city drive around in Ferrari cars,
I assure you most drug dealers in the world do not drive ferraris. Freakanomics is largely shit but there is an alright chapter in it on why so many drug dealers with the mums, they end up comparing it to being a professional football player where most end up playing for hardly any money and living with parents and such but the fact there are a few at the top making millions makes those at the bottom keep working hard in the belief that one day they can get there. Pyramid business. Most end up stuck at the bottom though.

[Cencus]

Most drug dealers only sell to supply their own habits with maybe a little extra on top. There are few higher up the chain that make a decent living out of it, these I'd see more as bourgeois than proles or lumpens.

I used to beg 20 years back, I was an alcoholic and it provided the cash I needed to supply my addiction. Almost every other beggar I met did it not because of homelessness but due to one addiction or another.

Most prostitutes I've met, did it not for any want to rip the working class off but again to supply addictions.

Calling the victims of circumstances scum is totally out of order, yup most could have made better life choices but if it came down to looking forward to 40 years of doing the same mind numbing shite job for minimal reward or looking forward to getting off my face, I'll take the pills/powder/bottle any day.

[Red Bayonet]

Just remember... a lump of clay can become a clump of clay, then a blob of clay,then a glob of clay, and finally, a very large bronze sculpture.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I tell you, the lumpens I see on a daily basis NEED a revolution. As far as I can see, the only way these people benefit capitalism more than us proles do is the fact that the proletariat can actually become conscious of their existence as an exploited class and overthrow the ruling class--the lumpenpro are at the literal botton of the pile and resort to all kinds of nasty things to get by, and they don't even have access to the educational or/and technological means to become conscious! They pretty much have to accept their place and die quietly, as I have seen many do. The lumpenpro can't do that and essentially relies on the proletariat for their own revolution.

I don't care about the definitions, after seeing the conditions that these folk live in, I see them as a driving force behind my own ideology. What a waste of human beings, they are in need of liberation possibly even more than workers are. At least most workers have basic needs, like homes, toilets, food etc etc.

I see the liberation of the bottom-end of the lumpenpro as a necessary by-product of the proletarian revolution, and do not see these people as enemies to the proletariat either, but as the waste products of capitalism itself.

[Lucretia]

Marx and Engels used the word "lumpenproletariat" to refer to those propertlyless people (hence, "proletariat," which refers to propertyless urban dwellers) who did not have, and in many cases were not able to find, regular work selling their labor power. As a result, they were rootless, existing on the margins of the economy, frequently resorting to crimes such as prostitution, and (much like the petty bourgeoisie) were untrustworthy during revolutionary activity due to not having a fixed position within capitalist relations of production. Marx and Engels did not think that all lumpen were "scum." In fact, some of their comments were quite sympathetic.