If only the Democrats listened

[RGacky3]

The radical left called it before Obama was even in office, when the radical left's predictions came true we called the outcome again, now its comming true.

The Radical left said "Obama is just another politician, he's part of the buisiness party and is going to serve the interest of the capitalist classes."

The Progressives said "NO, Obama CHANGE, HOPE CHANGE!!!!"

When he came in power and it turned out he was a corporatist just like every other coporatist democratic, we called it, things will not get better, and the republicans will blame the democrats and the democrats will loose out.

Now look whats going on, the Democrats are gonna loose the house, and probably even the senate, 2012 Obama will probably face a primary, and probably be a one term president.

Why? Because as the left predicted, he let down his base, NO public option, medicare buy-in, not to mention the single payer we wanted, NO real finance reform, no braking up the banks, no regulating the derivatives market, NO serious tone down of war, sure he's done little things, but nothing real and substantial.

Also don't give me this "oh he's not superman" He's the president of the Goddamn United States, the most powerful nation in the world, and he had a Democratic House AND Senate, he could have had any bill he wanted, he could have used reconciliation for the public option WHICH HE USED ANYWAY, he could have put through real finance reform.

The democrats are gonna loose out, but my prediction is that once some of these tea-party guys get into office their stay will be pretty short, the slight republican victory will be short lived.

ALso don't get it wrong, the reason they are gonna loose is because they tried to be centrist, they were not left enough, and no progressives don't care.

The point of this thread is just for the socialists to gloat and say told-ya-so.

[Nolan]

^wisdom.

[timbaly]

No doubt, but this didn't help either: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/01/gop-filibuster-record-rep_n_480722.html. The use of filibusters is so out of control.

[ComradeMan]

Well what did you think the slogan

"Yes, we can"

... actually meant?


Nothing....?

Perhaps....?

[RGacky3]

No doubt, but this didn't help either: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_480722.html (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/01/gop-filibuster-record-rep_n_480722.html). The use of filibusters is so out of control.


Reconciliation, presidential powers, passing bills during certain times to get around it, there are many options. Infact to get public healthcare through they used reconciliation ANYWAY, AFTER they gave up anything. So the filibuster is a poor excuse, when you have both majorities there is no excuse.

Obama gave all major concesions on the bills BEFORE negotiation started and played soft, we called it, he did it, we called its failure, it failed, we called his losses, he's loosing. Filibuster my ass, terrible excuse.

[timbaly]

Well what did you think the slogan

"Yes, we can"

... actually meant?


Nothing....?

Perhaps....?


Yes we can elect a black man?

[timbaly]

Reconciliation, presidential powers, passing bills during certain times to get around it, there are many options. Infact to get public healthcare through they used reconciliation ANYWAY, AFTER they gave up anything. So the filibuster is a poor excuse, when you have both majorities there is no excuse.

Obama gave all major concesions on the bills BEFORE negotiation started and played soft, we called it, he did it, we called its failure, it failed, we called his losses, he's loosing. Filibuster my ass, terrible excuse.


True. He didn't want to be a decisive figure. He wanted to be seen as a moderate. He should have rammed it down the Republicans' throats. He thought compromise would secure popularity. Now look...

[ComradeMan]

Yes we can elect a black man?

It shouldn't have been about race. A non-racist society should also be a colourblind one.

But, more cynically- I think that "yes we can" could mean anything to anyone then in all senses it could also mean nothing.

[¿Que?]

All true, but part of that majority in the house and senate was comprised of the now well known and infamous "blue dog" democrats. These are the worst kind, because they are socially left only, and economically, where it really matters, they are conservatives through and through.

Another thing that bothers me is how republicans embrace the radicalism of the right. But what do democrats do when confronted with radicalism from the left? Sanity etc. They disavow themselves of their radical wing, and ultimately the political discourse is shifted to the right.

But what do we expect when both parties are funded by corporate interests. Remember the DNC, remember how AT&T was all over that and then shortly thereafter the telecoms were granted retroactive immunity or some such thing (from invasion of privacy lawsuits. The details are murky for me, if anyone wants to correct me, please do).

The democrats would be a joke if it wasn't so damn depressing.

[Bud Struggle]

As far as the Republicans being in office short term--2011 is the year the state and national election boundries are to be drawn up. If the Republicans hold the state houses----;)

[RGacky3]

Whats interesting is the democrats are gonna loose, but all the polls point still show that Americans still prefer progressive ideas, but since they've shown they don't represent those ideas they're gonna loose.

Let me be on the record now to say that this tea-party thing, is gonna die out in the next few years, the tea-party guys getting in now are a wholy owned subsidiary of corporate America, and they are gonna act that way, and corporatist policies WILL go through, other than that, NOTHING will get done, the only thing thats gonna get done is stuff that corporate America is seriously pushing for. Also if you think the US government is owned by corporate America, just wait till citizens united starts going into effect, the next big progressive issue will be campain finance reform.

Let me also be on the record as saying in the next couple years, another economic collapse, the class divide between the super rich and everyone else will get bigger.

[ComradeMan]

Would an American comrade be so kind as to do a post about the dynamics of politics in the US- explaining things like "blue dogs" and the other stuff we non-US people don't perhaps follow or understand so well?

All I see is different factions of gringo imperialists!
:D

[Bud Struggle]

Let me be on record to disagree with everything you say except the last sentence. The rich are going to get richer.

[RGacky3]

As far as the Republicans being in office short term--2011 is the year the state and national election boundries are to be drawn up. If the Republicans hold the stste houses----;)

Give it 2 years, next year is too short for everyone to find out they are full of it.


All true, but part of that majority in the house and senate was comprised of the now well known and infamous "blue dog" democrats. These are the worst kind, because they are socially left only, and economically, where it really matters, they are conservatives through and through.


They arn't the majority, the majority bloc in the democratic congress is actually the progressives, the blue dogs are the minority, but they are enough to hold a lot of power if they switch over.


But what do we expect when both parties are funded by corporate interests.

We've been saying that since Eugene Debs, its just now becomming a major issue.

[Bud Struggle]

All I see is different factions of gringo imperialists!
:D

You know--that's really the truth.

[ComradeMan]

you know--that's really the truth.

viva zapata!
:d

[RGacky3]

Let me be on record to disagree with everything you say except the last sentence. The rich are going to get richer.


May the better predictor win :), I was right last time, we'll see.

Btw, if you look at what got through with bipartisan support, it was only stuff with strong strong corporate support, stuff like not allowing medicare to negotiate.

Comrademan, the democrats are split into 3 camps, progressives (relatively left, pro-democracy, slightly social-democrat, liberal) the New Democrats (centrists), and blue dogs (socially liberal, economically corporatist).

[scarletghoul]

"and if Obama win, he wouldn't be the first black, take your 2 dollar bill and turn it over to the back"
http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix6/2_bill_blackman.jpg

Nuthin original about the odd black man taking a seat of power in the white establishment

[Robert]

Well what did you think the slogan

"Yes, we can"

... actually meant?


Honestly, I think it meant: "If we say this catchy phrase often enough, we'll get more votes."

Someone had a good thread about marketing. Those campaign slogans are tested by market analysts, not philosophers.

[timbaly]

"and if Obama win, he wouldn't be the first black, take your 2 dollar bill and turn it over to the back"
http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix6/2_bill_blackman.jpg

Nuthin original about the odd black man taking a seat of power in the white establishment

I've never noticed that before.


Honestly, I think it meant: "If we say this catchy phrase often enough, we'll get more votes."

Someone had a good thread about marketing. Those campaign slogans are tested by market analysts, not philosophers.

That's the truth. The whole campaign was genius from a propaganda standpoint.

[RGacky3]

Nuthin original about the odd black man taking a seat of power in the white establishment

In the origional painting he's white.

[RGacky3]

One more prediction, Obama will say "the country has spoken, lets cooperate" and he will move MORE to the right and loose even more popularity, I hope it does'nt happen, but I'm betting it does, NO progressive legislation will get through.

I'm saying one more time, Democrats, kick them in the mouth, or your gonna keep loosing.

[Magón]

I hope that the Republicans win where they can, I hope they kick Obama out of office. If they do, then they'll fuck shit up so much here in the US, it'll make their heads spin how fucked they made the whole place. Let China over take the US as head honcho of power, let all these nations do it where they can. Maybe once the US Citizens see how fucked up they acted, in following some even more fucked up people, they'll wake up and finally start to say, "Hey, none of these fuckers fucking represent me," and we'll get a goddamn revolution.

[ZeroNowhere]

"and if Obama win, he wouldn't be the first black, take your 2 dollar bill and turn it over to the back"
If this is meant to imply that he wouldn't be the first black President, I suppose it's in reference to this incredibly black President?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/John_Hanson_Portrait_1770.jpg



http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix6/2_bill_blackman.jpg
Nuthin original about the odd black man taking a seat of power in the white establishmentFrom what I recall of the original painting, that was Robert Morris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Robert_Morris.jpg), who was even less black than Hanson. Compare the painting (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Declaration_independence.jpg) with the note (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/US_%242_reverse-high.jpg), for example.

[RGacky3]

I hope that the Republicans win where they can, I hope they kick Obama out of office. If they do, then they'll fuck shit up so much here in the US, it'll make their heads spin how fucked they made the whole place. Let China over take the US as head honcho of power, let all these nations do it where they can. Maybe once the US Citizens see how fucked up they acted, in following some even more fucked up people, they'll wake up and finally start to say, "Hey, none of these fuckers fucking represent me," and we'll get a goddamn revolution.


Are you insane??? People KNOW they don't represent them, do you want to loose social security? DO you want more jobs to be lost? Do you want WallStreet to control MORE, at that point people will be more desperate than they are, and will be willing to settle for anything.

[Magón]

Are you insane??? People KNOW they don't represent them, do you want to loose social security? DO you want more jobs to be lost? Do you want WallStreet to control MORE, at that point people will be more desperate than they are, and will be willing to settle for anything.

No, these people don't know shit. If they did, they'd have already said enough is enough, and risen up against the government. Clearly they don't. I hope the whole goddamn government in America becomes Republican so they just burn all this shit up, and the people RISE UP! (Like in Greece or some shit like that.) My only Social Security concerns is if someone gets my number, but that won't be any use if the whole place crumbles and people loose all hope in a government and parties that have fucked them over for so many years. Wall Street will be hopelessly fucked when it's sitting in more shit than it can dig itself out of and gradually collapse itself.

Hopefully by this, people will realize that they have to start depending on themselves and themselves alone, not some politician coming up and telling them how to act, etc. The collapse of the US State would be paradise for any true Anarchist.


And why would people be willing to settle for parties that they've seen, and realize, have not helped them or done anything to seriously help the worker?

[RGacky3]

No, these people don't know shit. If they did, they'd have already said enough is enough, and risen up against the government.

Most people don't vote, most people know that corporate money runs their government, but most people don't think they can do anything about it. Your argument is like arguing slaves did'nt know they were slaves because they did'nt revolt.


and the people RISE UP! (Like in Greece or some shit like that.)

Greece already had a long long history of anarchist insurection. More likely things will get really ugly, like in the 1930s, the closest the US got to revolution was the pre-20s.


Wall Street will be hopelessly fucked when it's sitting in more shit than it can dig itself out of and gradually collapse itself.


You hav'nt learned from history have you, Wall Street is going to be ok, and as long as the state is the way it is it won't have to dig itself out, the state will. The markets are gonna collapse again, now the REAL tell tale is what the response is.

My hope is that a "savior" will come up, but people won't buy it, people will make their own community groups, workplace associations, defaulter groups and take it on themselves, but I don't know.

BTW, I don't know how old you are, but this shit effects peoples lives, so wishing for it to get worse, because MAYBE people will revolt, is insane

[Bud Struggle]

BTW, I don't know how old you are, but this shit effects peoples lives, so wishing for it to get worse, because MAYBE people will revolt, is insane


Excellent point, Gack. I just want to highlight this.

[Magón]

Most people don't vote, most people know that corporate money runs their government, but most people don't think they can do anything about it. Your argument is like arguing slaves did'nt know they were slaves because they did'nt revolt.

Uh earth to RGacky, we are slaves. Just not the type of slaves you're thinking of. The type of slaves we are, are Wage Slaves. And MOST people don't think of themselves like that, ask any one person on a street in the US, and I can bet you 99% of them will tell you different.



Greece already had a long long history of anarchist insurection. More likely things will get really ugly, like in the 1930s, the closest the US got to revolution was the pre-20s.

Uh, I'm drunk right now and even know that 1920s America wasn't any closer to Revolution than they were say in say the 1960s with all the rioting and protesting going on there. (The necessary means weren't quite acted upon, thus why no revolution in either decade.) Americans speak out, it's what they do, doesn't mean they're willing to go into a revolution for their words.


You hav'nt learned from history have you, Wall Street is going to be ok, and as long as the state is the way it is it won't have to dig itself out, the state will. The markets are gonna collapse again, now the REAL tell tale is what the response is.

How can Wall Street be okay when there's no monetary system coming from the US? When the whole country's gone bankrupt and people are forced to feed themselves, by growing and planting their own food, and slaughtering their own animals. Like I said, but you failed to realize, I hope the Republicans get in BECAUSE WHEN THE DO THEY'LL FUCK SHIT UP SO BAD, IT'LL MAKE THEIR HEADS SPIN! In other words, there won't be any helping get the US out of a Recession or Depression, it will be utter and total collapse of the US State and all it has done.

Don't you think that when Government Parties such as the Democrats and Republicans, fail to help the people economically, they'll start to fend for each other and themselves? That they'll actually say enough is enough, and be glad that these parties and government is gone? That maybe they'll make a new party, or organization, a (hopefully) much better one than the ones we have now here in the US.


My hope is that a "savior" will come up, but people won't buy it, people will make their own community groups, workplace associations, defaulter groups and take it on themselves, but I don't know.

BTW, I don't know how old you are, but this shit effects peoples lives, so wishing for it to get worse, because MAYBE people will revolt, is insane

And I don't know how old you are, but I do know this effects peoples lives. It's effecting my life for the worst right now with the parties that are in power. Whether Dem or Rep, none of them are good for me. I'M THE ONLY ONE GOOD FOR ME POLITICALLY. I don't know exactly how you see a Revolution coming to be, but making a revolution isn't an easy process by any means. (By voting in your people, that's not going to happen, none of that kind of shit is.) People are going to get hurt, people have to learn pain and what pain really means on an economic level. Right now, it's hardly anything for most because they've still got some form of a job, and are scraping by to live. Taking away the cancer that's poisoning everything is how it has to be, and from what I'm told, Chemo isn't a pleasant thing to go through. Neither is having to take a road that leads to hard times, but in the end things get better because people will finally realize (here in the US) that it's themselves who need to be in charge.

If anything, I'm trying to get it into your mind, that a Revolution here in the US will come at a serious cost; one that people will have to sacrifice a lot for. Maybe more so than most others have in any other Leftist Revolution because it is America. THE BIGGEST CAPITALIST NATION/EMPIRE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, and the obviously the strongest out there.

[RGacky3]

The type of slaves we are, are Wage Slaves. And MOST people don't think of themselves like that, ask any one person on a street in the US, and I can bet you 99% of them will tell you different.


Yeah we are, and most people know things are bad, most people know they are wage slaves even if they don't call it that.


Uh, I'm drunk right now

Then drunk dial a booty call don't post on revleft, I'm gonna ignore the rest of your post because of that, because clearly your dilusional.

[Magón]

Yeah we are, and most people know things are bad, most people know they are wage slaves even if they don't call it that.



Then drunk dial a booty call don't post on revleft, I'm gonna ignore the rest of your post because of that, because clearly your dilusional.

Then how do you think a Revolution in the US will come about? Honestly, I'd like to know. And being drunk has nothing to do with me being "delusional", I can still write properly and carry on a decent conversation. But maybe it's because you don't see a US Revolution happening any other way, and that's why you're just saying because I'm drunk that you don't want to talk anymore? TELL ME HOW A REVOLUTION IN THE US WILL COME ABOUT!?

[ComradeMan]

Then how do you think a Revolution in the US will come about? Honestly, I'd like to know. And being drunk has nothing to do with me being "delusional", I can still write properly and carry on a decent conversation. But maybe it's because you don't see a US Revolution happening any other way, and that's why you're just saying because I'm drunk that you don't want to talk anymore? TELL ME HOW A REVOLUTION IN THE US WILL COME ABOUT!?


Start throwing tea into the port of Boston, refuse to pay taxes and see if you can't get the French on your side?

[RGacky3]

TELL ME HOW A REVOLUTION IN THE US WILL COME ABOUT!?

Organisation, agitation, long hard struggles, shifting the power to the hands of hte workers and public through direct action, and many other things. NOT by ruining everyones lives.


Start throwing tea into the port of Boston, refuse to pay taxes and see if you can't the French on your side?

FYI, the boston tea party was a protest against tax cuts for the east-india company, it was a progressive anti-corporate act.

[ComradeMan]

FYI, the boston tea party was a protest against tax cuts for the east-india company, it was a progressive anti-corporate act.


Many Colonists opposed the act, not so much because it rescued the East India Company, but more because it seemed to validate the last remaining duty imposed by the Townshend Acts of 1767, the tea tax. Britain in turn yearned to halt the trade of smuggled tea to America. Before the Act, smugglers imported 900,000 pounds of cheap foreign tea a year. The quality of the smuggled tea did not match the quality of the dutiable East Indian Tea of which the Americans bought 562,000 pounds per year.

Although the British tea was more appealing in taste, some Patriots encouraged the consumption of smuggled tea. All this however did little to damage the British tea trade.

Before the Boston Tea Party occurred, the colonies did not agree with the decision to impose the Tea Act, whereby they would be acquiescing to the payment of the tea tax.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Act

[RGacky3]

Listening to Obamas speach its clear that he has'nt learned his lesson and he's gonna continue capitulating he's gonna continue unilateral disarmament, he's gonna continue reaching out to republicans as they piss on his hand. He's gonna continue letting down progressives, dismissing them and he's gonna probably be a one term president.

I don't live in the US right now, but for you still out there, God help you, its not gonna get better, buisiness is the only faction thats gonna win out of this, progressives won't get a damn thing. He's talking more corporatist and he's digging his own grave. I think there is going to also be a very big progressive backlash against the democratic establishment.

[Bud Struggle]

Listening to Obamas speach its clear that he has'nt learned his lesson and he's gonna continue capitulating he's gonna continue unilateral disarmament, he's gonna continue reaching out to republicans as they piss on his hand. He's gonna continue letting down progressives, dismissing them and he's gonna probably be a one term president. You write as though the Progressives have some sort of power base. They don't. The tide has turned to the tight fisted, non spending, Republicans. Then mean to balance the budget and without raising tazes that means cutting spending. The Progressives don't figure into the American equasion at all.


I don't live in the US right now, but for you still out there, God help you, its not gonna get better, buisiness is the only faction thats gonna win out of this, progressives won't get a damn thing. He's talking more corporatist and he's digging his own grave. I think there is going to also be a very big progressive backlash against the democratic establishment. I thought you were kidding about living in "Northern Europe!"

[Magón]

Organisation, agitation, long hard struggles, shifting the power to the hands of hte workers and public through direct action, and many other things. NOT by ruining everyones lives.

Who's lives am I ruining? You've already said that people know these politicians don't represent them, and that's why they don't vote. You've said that over again, so why aren't the Leftist Parties in the US organizing the people, agitating the state, etc.? If these people are already independent from the politicians, then having the politicians fall out of power and loose their jobs, would just make the people that much more independent and free. I don't think you understand the US Situation, but the US Situation is much different in Europe, South America, etc. A Revolution is hardly unlikely to win out by simple parties like the CNT-FAI, POUM, Bolsheviks, etc. organizing the peasants and revolting. That form of Revolution can't happen here in the US, people are too content on how their lives are, and how much they can take without feeling guilty. (Which is a lot, that's why it's the US.)

The only way I see the US Revolution happening, seriously, not some pipe dream, is total and utter collapse of the US Government. Whether that's State by State, gradually having the men in Congress and the man in the White House give up, I don't know, but how it's been done in the past won't be happening. You have to jar the American people away, to make them get out of the mindset their in, and completely give them a 180 Turnaround to see what needs to be done, so then they DON'T suffer.

Another way, which seems like it would have to happen, is put the US in complete isolate from the world. By this I mean destroy the states around the US, such as those in the EU, Mexico, Canada, etc. and isolate the US as the only Imperialist/Capitalist Nation on Earth. (I don't really see this happening too much really, it's sort of a long shot.)


Also, maybe give me a few reasons WHY people's lives would be so ruined if their government (,which you said they know doesn't represent them,) collapsed?

[RGacky3]

You write as though the Progressives have some sort of power base. They don't. The tide has turned to the tight fisted, non spending, Republicans. Then mean to balance the budget and without raising tazes that means cutting spending. The Progressives don't figure into the American equasion at all.


The Progressives voting got Obama in power, the progressives becoming disalusioned lost the democrats the house, the majority of Americans are progressives when it comes to the issues.

THe republicans won't balance the budget, mark my words, they won't even try, they won't cut anything that helps the ruling class or the military, cutting stuff that hurt the rest of America probably won't make it through the democrats (God I hope so).

Writing off the progressives, how did that work for the democrats? America is mostly progressive, if you want to ask for polls I'll give them to you, the republicans won the house because the democrats abandoned the left majority.


Also, maybe give me a few reasons WHY people's lives would be so ruined if their government (,which you said they know doesn't represent them,) collapsed?

Because people loose their social security, medicare, and all democratic oversight of the economy, leaving the capitalist totally in control. The government won't collapse, the economy will, for the poor.

[spice756]

The Radical left said "Obama is just another politician, he's part of the buisiness party and is going to serve the interest of the capitalist classes."

Why? Because as the left predicted, he let down his base, NO public option, medicare buy-in, not to mention the single payer we wanted, NO real finance reform, no braking up the banks, no regulating the derivatives market, NO serious tone down of war, sure he's done little things, but nothing real and substantial.




RGacky3 Here we go again .Why are Americans so conservative .Like the last thread you seem to think Americans are progressive they are not.The Americans are divided neoliberalism and conservive.

The stimulus package ,spending,lack of jobs and healthcare reform is why he is losing support and media brainwashing people that he is a socialist and big government is over.

Well Universal healthcare and welfare state wil not happen in US now or in the next 5 or 10 years the Americans will not allow it to happen.

It does not matter if Obama is just another politician or if buisinessess give him money not to past Universal healthcare or welfare state it does matter.WHAT MATTERS is class conscience in the US where the people can set up a workers party to take office.Democratic or Republic are the same only difference is on social issues!!! They are both free trade ,free market ,pro capitalism and support the rich and class hierarchy, they both anti-Universal healthcare and welfare state.

The left is weak in the US this not the case of libertarian party and independent party theire party has low numbers but if they get higher numbers if support of 50% of the people the electoral college will be reformed that the 2 party system, people do not support it at all.






No, these people don't know shit. If they did, they'd have already said enough is enough, and risen up against the government. Clearly they don't. I hope the whole goddamn government in America becomes Republican so they just burn all this shit up, and the people RISE UP!




They don't know shit thanks to media and government.Also the US being economic power of the world and high patrism gives them self of superior to all other countries.They feel they won socialism and capitalism,free market is the best.This is main reason the US is still out of touch with the world.The US needs to get out of 60's time bubble and wake up it 21 century we are not barbarians.:(:(

[RGacky3]

RGacky3 Here we go again .Why are Americans so conservative .Like the last thread you seem to think Americans are progressive they are not.The Americans are divided neoliberalism and conservive.

The stimulus package ,spending,lack of jobs and healthcare reform is why he is losing support and media brainwashing people that he is a socialist and big government is over.

Well Universal healthcare and welfare state wil not happen in US now or in the next 5 or 10 years the Americans will not allow it to happen.

It does not matter if Obama is just another politician or if buisinessess give him money not to past Universal healthcare or welfare state it does matter.WHAT MATTERS is class conscience in the US where the people can set up a workers party to take office.Democratic or Republic are the same only difference is on social issues!!! They are both free trade ,free market ,pro capitalism and support the rich and class hierarchy, they both anti-Universal healthcare and welfare state.

The left is weak in the US this not the case of libertarian party and independent party theire party has low numbers but if they get higher numbers if support of 50% of the people the electoral college will be reformed that the 2 party system, people do not support it at all.



The political arena has nothing to do with the actual attitude of hte US population, all the evidence points that the people in the US are more progressive, while washington (pulled by corporate money) is far to the right of the population, your looking at it from a political standpoint, the political stantpoint is not reflective of the population.


They don't know shit thanks to media and government.Also the US being economic power of the world and high patrism gives them self of superior to all other countries.They feel they won socialism and capitalism,free market is the best.This is main reason the US is still out of touch with the world.The US needs to get out of 60's time bubble and wake up it 21 century we are not barbarians.:(:(

You need to stop judging America based on the corporate washington and the corporate media, its not reflective of the population, poll after poll shows that on the issues the americans are to the left of the politicians and the media.

[RGacky3]

BTW, if you want to look at what the new right wingers will do in congress, just check out who pays them, thats who they are working for, this election was more the voice of corporate america (the guys you paid for the new congress), than the voice of Americans.

[Ele'ill]

The radical left called it before Obama was even in office, when the radical left's predictions came true we called the outcome again, now its comming true.

The Radical left said "Obama is just another politician, he's part of the buisiness party and is going to serve the interest of the capitalist classes."

The Progressives said "NO, Obama CHANGE, HOPE CHANGE!!!!"

When he came in power and it turned out he was a corporatist just like every other coporatist democratic, we called it, things will not get better, and the republicans will blame the democrats and the democrats will loose out.

Now look whats going on, the Democrats are gonna loose the house, and probably even the senate, 2012 Obama will probably face a primary, and probably be a one term president.

Why? Because as the left predicted, he let down his base, NO public option, medicare buy-in, not to mention the single payer we wanted, NO real finance reform, no braking up the banks, no regulating the derivatives market, NO serious tone down of war, sure he's done little things, but nothing real and substantial.

Also don't give me this "oh he's not superman" He's the president of the Goddamn United States, the most powerful nation in the world, and he had a Democratic House AND Senate, he could have had any bill he wanted, he could have used reconciliation for the public option WHICH HE USED ANYWAY, he could have put through real finance reform.

The democrats are gonna loose out, but my prediction is that once some of these tea-party guys get into office their stay will be pretty short, the slight republican victory will be short lived.

ALso don't get it wrong, the reason they are gonna loose is because they tried to be centrist, they were not left enough, and no progressives don't care.

The point of this thread is just for the socialists to gloat and say told-ya-so.

Yes.

[RGacky3]

RGacky3's-plan-for-weak-ass-democrats-that-they-will-not-use-because-they-are-weak-and-pathetic-and-ultimately-corporatist.

1. Progressive Bill after progressive Bill sent to congress, bills with medicare buy in, regulation, bills with raising taxes on the rich so on, NONE of them will pass, but make the republicans vote it down, no compromise.

2. Starting now start saying "The republicans are a wholey owned subsidiary of corporate America, the richest people in the country and multinational corporations" every day, list their doners, list their money (the last election corporate America gave wayyy more money to republicans).

3. Republicans are the party of the banks, insurance companies and the super rich, Democrats are the party of the people, DAY AFTER DAY.

4. DON'T REACH OUT TO WALL STREET!!! DON'T REACH OUT TO REPUBLICANS.

5. Not one compromise with republicans, every bill that the republicans put up add progressive amendments in it, make the republicans vote against their own bill.

You know what will happen then? You'll get bipartisanship, republicans will play ball, you'll get actual change, you'll bring faith back to your party, you'll have a message, you'll start to win.

But Obamas not gonna do this, he's gonna surrender more and more and go to the banks and tell them what a good boy he's been, and have them step on him as he boys down to them, they'll rip him to bits and he'll appologise to them and not fight back, and he's gonna loose again.

[Revolution starts with U]

You can't compromise with sociopaths, and that's what the republican establishment is.

[RGacky3]

Heres another example of why the democrats will loose (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/10/pelosi-jobless-who-spurne_n_781580.html). You screwed up politically, the democrats did, the failed in their messaging, the failed doing anything progressive, and now, your blaiming the voters for YOUR weekness.

These idiots just never learn. It looks like the democrats will buckle on tax cuts and don't ask don't tell, again, and get nothing in return, they hav'nt learned (at least enough of them hav'nt), and they are gonna keep taking hits. Thankfully the republicans are insane enough to where they won't sweep the elections, many will still vote democrat just to keep republicans out.

[spice756]

The Radical left said "Obama is just another politician, he's part of the buisiness party and is going to serve the interest of the capitalist classes."

Why? Because as the left predicted, he let down his base, NO public option, medicare buy-in, not to mention the single payer we wanted, NO real finance reform, no braking up the banks, no regulating the derivatives market, NO serious tone down of war, sure he's done little things, but nothing real and substantial.

RGacky3 Here we go again .Why are Americans so conservative .Like the last thread you seem to think Americans are progressive they are not.The Americans are divided neoliberalism and conservive.

The stimulus package ,spending,lack of jobs and healthcare reform is why he is losing support and media brainwashing people that he is a socialist and big government is over.

Well Universal healthcare and welfare state wil not happen in US now or in the next 5 or 10 years the Americans will not allow it to happen.

It does not matter if Obama is just another politician or if buisinessess give him money not to past Universal healthcare or welfare state it does matter.WHAT MATTERS is class conscience in the US where the people can set up a workers party to take office.Democratic or Republic are the same only difference is on social issues!!! They are both free trade ,free market ,pro capitalism and support the rich and class hierarchy, they both anti-Universal healthcare and welfare state.

The left is weak in the US this not the case of libertarian party and independent party theire party has low numbers but if they get higher numbers if support of 50% of the people the electoral college will be reformed that the 2 party system, people do not support it at all.




Quote:

No, these people don't know shit. If they did, they'd have already said enough is enough, and risen up against the government. Clearly they don't. I hope the whole goddamn government in America becomes Republican so they just burn all this shit up, and the people RISE UP!


They don't know shit thanks to media and government.Also the US being economic power of the world and high patrism gives them self of superior to all other countries.They feel they won socialism and capitalism,free market is the best.This is main reason the US is still out of touch with the world.The US needs to get out of 60's time bubble and wake up it 21 century we are not barbarians.:(:(



How many people think this tea party and media is causing this anti-Obama stuff saying he is a communist.And causing people to be anti-Obama thinking he is a comminist.

[Bud Struggle]

How many people think this tea party and media is causing this anti-Obama stuff saying he is a communist.And causing people to be anti-Obama thinking he is a comminist.

I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks Obama's a Communist or a Socialist or even a Progressive. The facts that the Progressives though he was one of them leads me to believe that the Progressives aren't in their right mind.

[Ele'ill]

I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks Obama's a Communist or a Socialist or even a Progressive. The facts that the Progressives though he was one of them leads me to believe that the Progressives aren't in their right mind.

Good post actually :lol::thumbup1:

I think a lot of people think Obama is a socialist but I also don't think they likely know what socialism is to begin with.

[Dimentio]

The radical right will lead a revolution if there is any in the USA. If the right-wingers fail, there will be even more right-wing right-wingers coming along.

[RGacky3]

I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks Obama's a Communist or a Socialist or even a Progressive. The facts that the Progressives though he was one of them leads me to believe that the Progressives aren't in their right mind.

YOu thought he was a socialist, for a long time, and some right wingers still think he's a communist.

So out of everyone, progressives are the most in their mind, and socialists have been the whole time.

[Bud Struggle]

YOu thought he was a socialist, for a long time, and some right wingers still think he's a communist.

So out of everyone, progressives are the most in their mind, and socialists have been the whole time.

Well to be honest neither I nor anyone really knew what Obama would do. And it turns out he was "one of the boys" after all. I did vote for him, so I agreed with what he was going to do.

Anyway, he was the Progressive's shot. Too bad it didn't work out.

[RGacky3]

Socialists knew what he was going to do. We knew exactly what he was going to do, not even the "intellectual" ones, just here on revleft.


Anyway, he was the Progressive's shot. Too bad it didn't work out.

Progressives arn't done.

[Bud Struggle]

Progressives arn't done.

So what's plan "B"?

[Dimentio]

The problem is that the progressives aren't important, due to America being a centre-right country, with a low turnout for people who vote left.

[Ele'ill]

Lots of fire and broken shop windows... they're uniting with the radical left.

[Bud Struggle]

Lots of fire and broken shop windows... they're uniting with the radical left.

Yup let's make those mom and pop shopkeepers PAY! Maybe you can't hurt Exxon and BP and Coke but you can sure get to the people that make a small living selling you your gasoline and soda.

[Bud Struggle]

The problem is that the progressives aren't important, due to America being a centre-right country, with a low turnout for people who vote left.

You have to wonder why someone from Scandanavia has SUCH A BETTER understanding of American politics than Americans do.

Dimentio is totally correct on this.

[Ele'ill]

Yup let's make those mom and pop shopkeepers PAY! Maybe you can't hurt Exxon and BP and Coke but you can sure get to the people that make a small living selling you your gasoline and soda.

Did you not get the sarcasm?

[Dimentio]

It is always the centre which are the deciding factor on policies in most countries, since the centre voters could swing between the left and right, while it is unlikely that progressives would vote for republicans, or ultra-conservatives for democrats.

In Sweden, the Moderates had to start call themselves a working class party to have a chance to win power. The Swedish right-wingers are basically the equivalent to the US Democrats.

[Robert]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mari3L http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1941068#post1941068)
Lots of fire and broken shop windows... they're uniting with the radical left.
Yup let's make those mom and pop shopkeepers PAY! Maybe you can't hurt Exxon and BP and Coke but you can sure get to the people that make a small living selling you your gasoline and soda.

Perhaps mari meant that it is the shopkeepers who are uniting with the radical left ... "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!"

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Dimentio http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1941067#post1941067)
The problem is that the progressives aren't important, due to America being a centre-right country, with a low turnout for people who vote left.

Dimentio, there's a guy on this board named Gacky3, or 3dGacky, that you need to talk to. Whenever we try to tell him what you say above, he calls us retarded morons. Maybe he'll listen to you.:lol:

[Robert]

So what's plan "B"?Stomp our feet: "There is too a Santa Claus. There is, there is, there is."
http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/tears/t2309.gif

[Unclebananahead]

It's amazing to me when anybody is surprised when Democrats enact pro-corporate, pro-imperialist, policies. When have they ever behaved differently? Anybody remember Clinton's 'welfare reform,' his attack on a Sudanese pharmaceutical manufacturing plant, his breaking up of Yugoslavia or any of the other wonderful things he did? Does anyone want to discuss the Kennedy and Johnson administrations? Get real. They've shown their true colors again, and again, and again.

[RGacky3]

I think people are hoping for a new FDR.

[Unclebananahead]

I think people are hoping for a new FDR.

My girlfriend back in 2008 was one of those optimistic that Obama would institute and preside over some sort of 'New, New Deal.' I thought at the time that though there was some meager chance of this, but that more than likely Obama would perform more or less like his predecessors in the Democratic party. And up until this point, and into the foreseeable future that's going to be my assessment.

FDR is sort of an interesting president, in that in some ways he was a social Democrat. But let it not be forgotten that he interned Japanese Americans, presided over a country in which several states still had racist 'Jim Crow laws,' maintained US imperialist control over several Latin American states as well as a few Asian ones, and stood by as US corporations did business with Nazi Germany. I would tend to argue that his 'New Deal' was more geared towards the mollification of the working class as a measure to prevent a revolutionary working movement from gaining any serious momentum, rather than any other motivation.

[RGacky3]

Whenever we try to tell him what you say above, he calls us retarded morons. Maybe he'll listen to you.http://www.revleft.com/vb/if-only-democrats-t144268/revleft/smilies2/laugh.gif

Mostly waht I do use bring light to statistics and polls rather than your and Buds Fox news trained Gut feelings.

THEN I call you morons.


In Sweden, the Moderates had to start call themselves a working class party to have a chance to win power. The Swedish right-wingers are basically the equivalent to the US Democrats.

Theres 2 types of progressives, team democrat progressives, and regular progressives that don't reall identify with the democratic party, hell, even when it comes to many issues like raising the taxes on the super rich, a large part of republicans are even progressive.

This idea of the US being a center right country is a myth purpetuated by the US and even some of the european media, and its based on policy, which would make sense, if the US was a functioning democracy, in a functioning democracy policy relfects the public opinion, in the US, if you look at public opinion its far to the left of policy.

[RGacky3]

FDR is sort of an interesting president, in that in some ways he was a social Democrat. But let it not be forgotten that he interned Japanese Americans, presided over a country in which several states still had racist 'Jim Crow laws,' maintained US imperialist control over several Latin American states as well as a few Asian ones, and stood by as US corporations did business with Nazi Germany. I would tend to argue that his 'New Deal' was more geared towards the mollification of the working class as a measure to prevent a revolutionary working movement from gaining any serious momentum, rather than any other motivation.

Of coarse, no ones saying he was politicians are moral agents ever, however, back then, the government was much more democratic in the sense that it responded more to public pressure, and corporate powers were not that powerful.

Whatever stuff FDR did, in many issues he took the peoples side rather than big buisinesses side. Thats what people were hoping for in Obama.

But your right and we were right for knowing he'd be another corporatist democrat.

[Unclebananahead]

Of coarse, no ones saying he was politicians are moral agents ever, however, back then, the government was much more democratic in the sense that it responded more to public pressure, and corporate powers were not that powerful.

Whatever stuff FDR did, in many issues he took the peoples side rather than big buisinesses side. Thats what people were hoping for in Obama.

But your right and we were right for knowing he'd be another corporatist democrat.



FDR was acting in his capacity as custodian of US capitalism in preventing it from devouring itself during the great depression. He gave working people a few more crumbs from the pie, so they wouldn't upset capitalism's genteel soirée.

[Dimentio]

Theres 2 types of progressives, team democrat progressives, and regular progressives that don't reall identify with the democratic party, hell, even when it comes to many issues like raising the taxes on the super rich, a large part of republicans are even progressive.

This idea of the US being a center right country is a myth purpetuated by the US and even some of the european media, and its based on policy, which would make sense, if the US was a functioning democracy, in a functioning democracy policy relfects the public opinion, in the US, if you look at public opinion its far to the left of policy.

Despite that, left-wing policies generally are election losers, while right-wing policies are election winners. The reason why Obama has lost popularity is that he is seen as too much of a left-winger. The independents are moving over to the Republicans because of that.

[RGacky3]

FDR was acting in his capacity as custodian of US capitalism in preventing it from devouring itself during the great depression. He gave working people a few more crumbs from the pie, so they wouldn't upset capitalism's genteel soirée.

I absolutely agree, it takes public pressure.


Despite that, left-wing policies generally are election losers, while right-wing policies are election winners. The reason why Obama has lost popularity is that he is seen as too much of a left-winger. The independents are moving over to the Republicans because of that.

Not really, there was no left wing policies, none at all, what happed in 2010 was no progressive turnout, and no independant turnout (theres nothing to be exceited about because there is no change) and a very motivated conservative base.

Last election was'nt a loss of left wing politics, because there was none, it was not implimenting left wing politics that lost the election.

[Dimentio]

Last election was'nt a loss of left wing politics, because there was none, it was not implimenting left wing politics that lost the election.

If Obama actually had implemented left-wing policies, it would have been more of a disaster. The reason why the watered out healthcare bill was passed was because of the resistance from the Blue Dog Democrats. And the Blue Dogs actually came out stronger in the election than before.

If your analysis was correct, all Democrats would have been affected equally bad.

Another reason for the resistance against the Healthcare Bill is it's centralisation to D.C. It would be like if the European Healthcare systems had been centralised to Brussels.

[Bud Struggle]

Not really, there was no left wing policies, none at all, All the liberal left win policies were defeated between 08 and 10. The Progressives were bankrupt in 10.


what happed in 2010 was no progressive turnout, and no independant turnout (theres nothing to be exceited about because there is no change) and a very motivated conservative base. Obama got the stary eved people that ever vote voting for a guy with a pile of charisma. The shine was off of the apple and that was that.


Last election was'nt a loss of left wing politics, because there was none, it was not implimenting left wing politics that lost the election. So all of the Progressives just gave up after one try? We if that they way they are--they will never win.

Progressives (if they exist) just don't vote consistantly enough to make anything happen. On the other hand Conservatives do. On of the reasons Obama won in 08 was the fact that McCain was not a Conservative.

Another big problems here for the Progressives is that Conservatives won a good number of races in state election for state house and senate seats. Those people will de drawing up voting district lines for the next ten years--no doubt concentrating liberal votes to a few strongholds and spreading out conservative votes over many state and national election districts.

The next reapportionment of districts will be in ten years after the next census. I think Progressives are in for some lean years.

[Amphictyonis]

"Change" meant we're all going to be walking the streets bumming spare change from the bourgeoisie. Hope is something for Christians to rely on. Just as they have faith in god the left put their hope and faith in Obama (a wolf in sheep's clothing). There is no hope, no faith. This externalizes our true potential to take power in our own hands. Everything about Obama's campaign was meant to pacify the people. To pacify the anger built up from Bush's terms.

Place all hope in Obama. He'll change the world for us! All along this was meant to marginalize the far left movement which built up under Bush. The left was stupid enough to be tricked by the same old bullshit and it will probably continue? One would think after the such Obvious Obama continuity people would begin to wake up to the game. There is no difference between democrats and republicans. NONE. The only people who truly have power to change things is a mass movement of people.


We need to really ignore the tea party people and focus ALL of our criticisms on the people who fell for the Obama trap. I did this from day one even before he was elected. Lost a few "friends" within the left over it. Was even called a racist on a few occasions. This is part of the reason I have so much disdain for 'progressives' and democrats. They're just as bad as tea party people in my view (if not worse).

[Amphictyonis]

My girlfriend back in 2008 was one of those optimistic that Obama would institute and preside over some sort of 'New, New Deal.' I thought at the time that though there was some meager chance of this, but that more than likely Obama would perform more or less like his predecessors in the Democratic party. And up until this point, and into the foreseeable future that's going to be my assessment.

FDR is sort of an interesting president, in that in some ways he was a social Democrat. But let it not be forgotten that he interned Japanese Americans, presided over a country in which several states still had racist 'Jim Crow laws,' maintained US imperialist control over several Latin American states as well as a few Asian ones, and stood by as US corporations did business with Nazi Germany. I would tend to argue that his 'New Deal' was more geared towards the mollification of the working class as a measure to prevent a revolutionary working movement from gaining any serious momentum, rather than any other motivation.

FDR had to contend with a whole hell of a lot of organized workers. We don't have that today.

[RGacky3]

If Obama actually had implemented left-wing policies, it would have been more of a disaster. The reason why the watered out healthcare bill was passed was because of the resistance from the Blue Dog Democrats. And the Blue Dogs actually came out stronger in the election than before.


THe Blue dogs were actually almost wiped out of existance this election (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/03/blue-dog-coalition-gop-wave-elections_n_778087.html).

The resistance from the blue dogs was a bad excuse, health care had to go through reconciliation anyway, which means they could have made the healthcare bill progressive, which means it would have been popular with the majority of the country (who wanted a public option), now its popular with no one except a few team democrat people who support them no matter what.


If your analysis was correct, all Democrats would have been affected equally bad.


The Blue dogs were slaughtered.


Another reason for the resistance against the Healthcare Bill is it's centralisation to D.C. It would be like if the European Healthcare systems had been centralised to Brussels.

That was'nt really the issue.


All the liberal left win policies were defeated between 08 and 10. The Progressives were bankrupt in 10.


What liberal left policies? When, name ONE time, Obama pushed for a liberal left policy ..... he did'nt, so he lost his supporters and was left with no one.

What he did was give republicans what they wanted (corporatism), which emans the progressives left him and were disapointed, and the right still hates him.


So all of the Progressives just gave up after one try? We if that they way they are--they will never win.


Obama was not a progressive, he was pretending to be one. But don't think that the actual progressives (the people) are gonna give up.


Progressives (if they exist) just don't vote consistantly enough to make anything happen. On the other hand Conservatives do. On of the reasons Obama won in 08 was the fact that McCain was not a Conservative.


How was McCain not a conservative??? The reason McCain lost was because George Bush was one of the worst presedents of all time.

Progressives, turned out big time for Obama, and how did it work out for them.

Voting was never a winning stratagy for progressives, because politicians get bought so easily (the US is not a democracy), the winning strategy was in the 1930s and the 1960s, that was direct action, popular pressure and the such.


FDR had to contend with a whole hell of a lot of organized workers. We don't have that today.

I think things are gonna start going that way.

[Bud Struggle]

I think things are gonna start going that way.

And the Dodgers will move back to Brooklyn. :rolleyes:

For that to happen you have got to "reinvent" unions. A number of the big ones out there are pretty much in the pockets of the businesses. There is nothing motivating them to succeed.

Also, union have a medocre reputation with the rank and file. A big airline in Atlanta just voted to turn the unnion down. (I'd look it up--but im in a hurry.) But that's just an example.

[Revolution starts with U]

the US appears a center-right country because of a lack of voting amongst the radical left. These people are my friends, they don't vote. "What difference would it make" is their mantra.
Obama didn't get into office because of the establishment voters, look at the rolls. He got into office because he got a lot of people; youngs and blacks; who don't usually vote to actually go tho the poles.
If democrats would act like they were really on the left, they would get more people to the poles, and win much more. But they cow-tail to business; like Obama's "Helalthcare bill." And the n the people who could actually make a difference say "voting doesn't work." And they stay home.

[RGacky3]

Also, union have a medocre reputation with the rank and file. A big airline in Atlanta just voted to turn the unnion down. (I'd look it up--but im in a hurry.) But that's just an example.

Overall in the US unions are growing, not nessesarily the traditional ones, but theres a lot of newer ones gaining momentum.

Plus its not JUST unions, theres the squatting in your house movement, the 99er movement, theres a lot more, Fox news is'nt covering it but its happening.

I'm think your gonna see an upsurge or working class movements seperated from the democratic party.

You might laugh, but so did people in the 20s and 50s. People laughed about san-salvador atenco, and that little city defeated the Mexican government TWICE, so did the Zapatistas, so did the shanty town poor in south africa and so on.

[The Red Next Door]

It hard to make people like to understand that Obama is not good. especially at this damn college i go to; dumb ass obamanite democrats pig loving idiots everywhere; yuck.

[RGacky3]

dumb ass obamanite democrats pig loving idiots everywhere; yuck.

This is probably why they don't listen to you.

[Bud Struggle]

You might laugh.


I'm not laughing. But from the look of things it's hard to take your comments seriously.

I just think that "union", "labor against managment" way of looking at things has ended.

Gack--you are living in the '30s. We've moved on.

It's like Mari3L's "people are going to rise up in the streets" anthum (though not as rediculous.) The trends just aren't goin iin that direction.

Time to think up a new Communism. The old one's are spent.

[RGacky3]

I just think that "union", "labor against managment" way of looking at things has ended.

Gack--you are living in the '30s. We've moved on.

It's like Mari3L's "people are going to rise up in the streets" anthum (though not as rediculous.) The trends just aren't goin iin that direction.

Time to think up a new Communism. The old one's are spent.

Well unions are making a big comeback, but again thats just part of the equation, some old tactics are being used, some new ones, and they are gonna continue being used.

Class struggle is CLEARLY the way to look at things now, hell, thats now the ruling class is looking at it.

[Bud Struggle]

Well unions are making a big comeback, but again thats just part of the equation, some old tactics are being used, some new ones, and they are gonna continue being used. I honestly think you are living in the past.


Class struggle is CLEARLY the way to look at things now, hell, thats now the ruling class is looking at it. Brother, we aren't thinking of you at all. Not even a little. That race has been won, the fight is over. The ruling class has moved on.

[Revolution starts with U]

Warren Buffet disagrees with you, small time new money.

I think it is YOU, who thinks they are part of the game. But you're not. You're new money, and small time. You have no idea. You're the new kid on the block everyone's laughing at because you get so excited over your new toys.

Fox News' anti union/anti labor stances, completely prove you wrong Bud

[The Red Next Door]

This is probably why they don't listen to you.

Debate civilly, i can talk about them a like dog on here.

[Ele'ill]

It's like Mari3L's "people are going to rise up in the streets" anthum (though not as rediculous.) The trends just aren't goin iin that direction.

Nice edit- this was so worth adding into your post to Gacky. :rolleyes:

Also that's really stupid because I don't have an anthem of that sort- at all.

[RGacky3]

I honestly think you are living in the past.


And I honestly think you don't understand how the world works.


Brother, we aren't thinking of you at all. Not even a little. That race has been won, the fight is over. The ruling class has moved on.

No they hav'nt, just watch the news, they are dispossessing, exploiting and continuing to terrorize the working class.

[spice756]

It is always the centre which are the deciding factor on policies in most countries, since the centre voters could swing between the left and right, while it is unlikely that progressives would vote for republicans, or ultra-conservatives for democrats.

In Sweden, the Moderates had to start call themselves a working class party to have a chance to win power. The Swedish right-wingers are basically the equivalent to the US Democrats.

Yes I find it very hard to believe that true left in Canada or Europe would vote conservative .So you saying it was a allusion? They where all center ? not really left or conservative ?

You do understand that Europe was progressive left.A person in Canada or the US would scream that is socialism and say that is Cuba or Russia.

The US political spectrum chart does nor apply has there is no understand of such at all.It is basically libertarian ,conservative and neo conservative for some one out side the US that chart them on a political spectrum give them those names.

[RGacky3]

Its not as simpmle as "voting right or left," much more important is the turnout, msot people simply don't vote, also it has to do with the background, not just left or right.

[Bud Struggle]

And I honestly think you don't understand how the world works. Personally, I did OK working the system.



No they hav'nt, just watch the news, they are dispossessing, exploiting and continuing to terrorize the working class. And from the results of the last election it seems the Working Class is loving it.

[ComradeMan]

Beware the Ides of March.... foolish plebeians who do not listen to their tribunes and cheer Antony and curse Brutus.

Marullus:
Why rejoice? What conquest doth he bring home?
What spoils follow him as he enters Rome?
You cruel men of Rome, knew you not Pompey?
How oft have you reached for your infants, then
Climbed to rooftops to wait the livelong day
To see Pompey pass the streets of Rome? When
His chariot appeared your shouts would make
The trembling edges of the Tiber shake.
‘Tis ingratitude to strew these flowers
For his triumph o’er Pompey’s sons. You ought
Run to your houses. These growing feathers
From Caesar’s wing should be plucked; we dare not
Let him soar above the view of man less
He keep us all in servile fearfulness.

Democrats, Republicans = patrician factions.

[RGacky3]

Personally, I did OK working the system.



Does'nt mean you understand the system, plus you did'nt "work the system", you own a chemical factory.


And from the results of the last election it seems the Working Class is loving it.

Your the only person that would interprate it that way, an intelligent person would interprate it as the majority of Americans did'nt vote because there is no one that represents their interests.

[Bud Struggle]

Does'nt mean you understand the system, plus you did'nt "work the system", you own a chemical factory. Did. Anyway that was never how I made my money. The chemical thing was me just seeing if I could do it another time. And no problems there. Lately I've been "investing" in the small businesses that have rented out my Real Estate space. Venture Capital.




Your the only person that would interprate it that way, an intelligent person would interprate it as the majority of Americans did'nt vote because there is no one that represents their interests.

You could take it two ways--either they are happy, or they never will vote. Wither way it's a conservative win.

And do you SERIOUSLY think that people that won't bother to vote will ever start a Revolution?

It ain't gunna happen.

[RGacky3]

They don't vote because a liberal in power does'nt make a difference at all, because the US is not a democracy its a plutocracy, the politicians answer to corporate America, so they don't vote but that does'nt mean they are looking for change.

And I don't know what you mean when you talk about revolution but revolutions are happening in America now.

[Bud Struggle]

They don't vote because a liberal in power does'nt make a difference at all, because the US is not a democracy its a plutocracy, the politicians answer to corporate America, so they don't vote but that does'nt mean they are looking for change.
It means they are looking at American Idol.



And I don't know what you mean when you talk about revolution but revolutions are happening in America now.

Brother, you are loosing touch.

[Revolution starts with U]

Did workers not just a few years ago take over their workplace and demand credit for their pensions, and then they restarted up the business?

I mean if you don't call that working class revolution, idk.. you must think revolutions only happen when heads fly.

[redz]

The radical left called it before Obama was even in office, when the radical left's predictions came true we called the outcome again, now its comming true.

The Radical left said "Obama is just another politician, he's part of the buisiness party and is going to serve the interest of the capitalist classes."

The Progressives said "NO, Obama CHANGE, HOPE CHANGE!!!!"

When he came in power and it turned out he was a corporatist just like every other coporatist democratic, we called it, things will not get better, and the republicans will blame the democrats and the democrats will loose out.

Now look whats going on, the Democrats are gonna loose the house, and probably even the senate, 2012 Obama will probably face a primary, and probably be a one term president.

Why? Because as the left predicted, he let down his base, NO public option, medicare buy-in, not to mention the single payer we wanted, NO real finance reform, no braking up the banks, no regulating the derivatives market, NO serious tone down of war, sure he's done little things, but nothing real and substantial.


Obama did NOT let down his base - HIS real base is Wall Street and elements of America's top-level capitalist power structure. The so-called "base" or constiuency consists of all those working people, assorted liberals and "progressives", and leftists and "socialist" charlatans who one way or another have been suckered into regarding the Democratic Party as somehow "theirs".

Bona fide radicals and socialists need to be working to shake up the labor movement (and various "progressive" and leftist groups) to break with the Dems and create a combative revolutionary party of the working class that will advance not just some "progressive" policies but the need for revolutionary seizure of state power by the working class.

Redz

[ComradeMan]

It's like Mari3L's "people are going to rise up in the streets" anthum (though not as rediculous.) The trends just aren't goin iin that direction.

Time to think up a new Communism. The old one's are spent.

In his Buddish way, he makes a point. Dwelling on the past and we have to be honest with ourselves, a lot of failures is not constructive for the future.

Bud, you have to agree that "the old one's" were not really communism in the true sense? Were they? Come on?

Here's a book that might interest you... it is not perfect and it annoyed a lot of anarchists :lol:, but still he makes some interesting points.

Anarchism, Marxism and the Future of the Left. Interviews and Essays, 1993-1998 (1999) Edinburgh and San Francisco: A.K. Press. ISBN 1-873176-35-X.

[Bud Struggle]

Bud, you have to agree that "the old one's" were not really communism in the true sense? Were they? Come on? My contention what the "old ones" did was as close as one could come to making Communism work on any large scale in the REAL WORLD. I don't think ALL of those guys were screwups. I believe that at least some of them really wanted to implement Communism--but what really happens when you try to implement Communism is what you saw.

That was as close as the human condition can come to implementing Communism. It's great in theory--




Here's a book that might interest you... it is not perfect and it annoyed a lot of anarchists :lol:, but still he makes some interesting points.

Anarchism, Marxism and the Future of the Left. Interviews and Essays, 1993-1998 (1999) Edinburgh and San Francisco: A.K. Press. ISBN 1-873176-35-X.

Thank you. I'll look it up.

[RGacky3]

It means they are looking at American Idol.



Brother, you are loosing touch.

You don't have any arguments do you?

[Bud Struggle]

You don't have any arguments do you?

:)

[redz]

Did workers not just a few years ago take over their workplace and demand credit for their pensions, and then they restarted up the business?

I mean if you don't call that working class revolution, idk.. you must think revolutions only happen when heads fly.


It's critical not to confuse ECONOMISTIC worker actions - strikes, sit-down strikes, workplace seizures, all WITHIN capitalism, and focused on short-term monetary or "economic" improvements - with REVOLUTIONARY worker actions (or pre-revolutionary). A GENERAL STRIKE, for example, lies much further along the line toward revolutionary action than a single, isolated worksite occupation. Now if all, or most of, the workers in, say, a city engaged in worksite occupations at the same time ... that's a course of a different color.

While I'm on the subject ... Instead of all those one-day mass protests in this and that European city, raging against the bourgeoisie's austerity attack on the working class, and designed by the labor bureaucrats to just vent some workers' anger, what we need to see is these turning into sustained GENERAL STRIKES. That would at least create the conditions for a pre-revolutionary situation.

Redz

[Amphictyonis]

That form of Revolution can't happen here in the US, people are too content on how their lives are, and how much they can take without feeling guilty. (Which is a lot, that's why it's the US.)

The only way I see the US Revolution happening, seriously, not some pipe dream, is total and utter collapse of the US *ECONOMY



* fixed ;)

[ComradeMan]

My contention what the "old ones" did was as close as one could come to making Communism work on any large scale in the REAL WORLD. I don't think ALL of those guys were screwups. I believe that at least some of them really wanted to implement Communism--but what really happens when you try to implement Communism is what you saw.

That was as close as the human condition can come to implementing Communism. It's great in theory-- .

Right so your contention is basically

a) the "old" communism is what is inevitable about the implementation of communism in the real world.
b) that it's great in theory but has never worked in practice.

If it had "worked" in practice would you change your stance?

[RGacky3]

It's critical not to confuse ECONOMISTIC worker actions - strikes, sit-down strikes, workplace seizures, all WITHIN capitalism, and focused on short-term monetary or "economic" improvements - with REVOLUTIONARY worker actions (or pre-revolutionary). A GENERAL STRIKE, for example, lies much further along the line toward revolutionary action than a single, isolated worksite occupation. Now if all, or most of, the workers in, say, a city engaged in worksite occupations at the same time ... that's a course of a different color.


These relatively small actions are revolutions, they shake up the power structure of the system, they shift the power and promote the option of shifting power.

Thats why a MAJOR corporation like starbucks goes apeshit when a few stores unionize, they spend WAY WAY more money fighting the union than they would loose from union policies, even just dropping the whole store and taking a major profit hit. Why do they do this? It has nothing to do with economic reasons, its they are afraid of revolution, you can tell something is working when corporate America will spend rediculous amounts of money fighting it.


While I'm on the subject ... Instead of all those one-day mass protests in this and that European city, raging against the bourgeoisie's austerity attack on the working class, and designed by the labor bureaucrats to just vent some workers' anger, what we need to see is these turning into sustained GENERAL STRIKES. That would at least create the conditions for a pre-revolutionary situation.

Redz

Easier said than done, but things are getting there, thankfully for Europes sake, labor has stayed strong and has kept up power wise, with the European Capitalist class. So Europe can fix it self, Europe can make a come back when labor fights back, which it will, don't expect a october revolutoin style revolt, those days are over, but expect things to change.

The United States is not so lucky, Ronald Reagen successfully destroyed unions, margarethe thatcher did'nt manage to do it, but Reagen did, the United States will become a third world country, and its gonna stay that way for a while. Organization takes time and its difficult, its a hard hard struggle, and its gonna take serious time in the US, its starting in the US, but its not nearly where it needs to be to make serious change.

One major difference between Europe and the US is in Europe labor parties and socialist parties came about as a result of labor organizing and labor class warfare, in the US that never happened, what happened was the democrats tried to pretend to be the "labor party," while at the same times being the buisiness party it always was. This really stabbed American Labor in the back, what also did'nt happen in Europe was the extreme violence against labor that happened in the US, which is why in parts of Europe labor actually became funtional democracies, because the European Capitalist class lost and had to accept labor as a sharer of power, in the US that never happened, the ruling class literally shot their way out of it. Thats part of the reason why the US is not gonna recover any time soon.

[RGacky3]

Here it goes, Obama fails the country again and folds on the tax cuts. There goes another one, on every single major issue, Obama is a corporatist, its gotten so bad that the progressives in congress, even the ones in the middle and not the left are fighting against him. Watch Obama crash and burn and get kicked when he's on the ground.

BTW, you'll never guess who's taxes are going up (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/tax-cut-compromise-whose-taxes-rise_n_793572.html). How bad has this gotten, to where this is'nt shocking.