Karl Marx Quote Taken Out Of Context By Counterrevolutionaries

[Rakhmetov]

Richard Pipes quoted Karl Marx: "The present generation resembles the Jews whom Moses led through the wilderness. It must not only conquer a new world, it must also perish in order to make a room for the people who are fit for a new world."

Here anti-communist Professor Pipes wants Marx to mean that these people should be executed when in reality Marx means that the old generation needs to be replaced by a new one (as every generation is through old age and natural death), which reared under the new socialist relations will be able to establish a better society.

What do you guys think?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_terror#cite_note-3

[El Rojo]

i would guess that he means the current class nature of humanity would have to cease to exist in order for there to be a class-less society. ive read marx say somewhere that the proles are unique due to thier need to abolish themselves as a class to advance, rather than others before us who have needed only to sieze power

[Amphictyonis]

I think it doesn't matter and is a waist of time :)

[Zanthorus]

That exact quote isn't anywhere in Marx that I can see. There is a very similar passage in The Class Struggles 1848-50, but the wording is significantly different. The word 'perish' with it's strong violent connotations appears as the slightly softened phrase 'go under':


In France, the petty bourgeois does what normally the industrial bourgeois would have to do; the worker does what normally would be the task of the petty bourgeois; and the task of the worker, who accomplishes that? No one. In France it is not accomplished; in France it is proclaimed. It is not accomplished anywhere within the national boundaries. The class war within French society turns into a world war, in which the nations confront one another. Accomplishment begins only at the moment when, through the world war, the proletariat is pushed to the fore of the people that dominates the world market, to the forefront in England. The revolution, which finds here not its end, but its organizational beginning, is no short-lived revolution. The present generation is like the Jews whom Moses led through the wilderness. It not only has a new world to conquer, it must go under in order to make room for the men who are able to cope with a new world.

I think Pipes might (Perhaps purposefully) have a dodgy translation (Although I don't speak German, or have a copy of MECW in German). But from the MIA version, and the context around the passage, it seems pretty clear that he's just saying that revolution won't be an instant thing but will take a significant amount of time.

[RedMaterialist]

That exact quote isn't anywhere in Marx that I can see. There is a very similar passage in The Class Struggles 1848-50, but the wording is significantly different. The word 'perish' with it's strong violent connotations appears as the slightly softened phrase 'go under':



I think Pipes might (Perhaps purposefully) have a dodgy translation (Although I don't speak German, or have a copy of MECW in German). But from the MIA version, and the context around the passage, it seems pretty clear that he's just saying that revolution won't be an instant thing but will take a significant amount of time.

I agree, Pipes is not only dodgy, he is a liar.

[graymouser]

I meant to look this up when I was at home yesterday, because the wording Pipes uses is from the English translation of Lukacs's History and Class Consciousness and not a translation of any work by Marx.

The quote itself shouldn't be taken to mean that anyone has to be killed; after all, in the story the Jews in the wilderness were not put to the sword but died of old age before the invasion of Canaan could start. It's an allusion to a clear literary reference: the old generation has to die off before the new world can be created in full. This is deeply rooted in Marx's concept of consciousness, since after all the new society comes about stamped with all the birthmarks of the old - all its neuroses and pettiness and greed and so on. It will take a generation born without capitalism to create a truly new world free of all the old shit.

[Decolonize The Left]

I think it doesn't matter and is a waist of time :)

I'm issuing you with a PM Warning, as you have previously received a verbal warning, for spam. This sort of comment is not only totally unnecessary but counter-productive.

- August

[red cat]

There should be a thread on all such quotes by prominent communist leaders that counter-revolutionaries take out of context and misguide people.

[Amphictyonis]

What do you guys think (?) was the question asked by the OP. I think it doesn't matter and is a waist of time was my answer. It's such an obvious right wing hack job I personally think it a waist of time to address.

If you're not familiar with the bible Moses led the Jews around the desert for 40 years while god was promising the whole time to 'guide them them to the promise land'. After a lifetime of struggle in search of the promise land god told Moses the Jews did not now deserve to live in paradise because of the amount if sinning they partook in during the journey. That perhaps the next generation would not suffer from the same folly and would be deserving of paradise.

I still think it a waist of time to address such obvious foolishness.

[Red Commissar]

Well, yeah, it's a waste of time, but often times these things have a bad habit of staying around, particularly with the way media works.

You don't have to have quotes taken out of context- they can be mis-attributed or pure fabrications. I recall a false quote attributed to Marx about the bank bailouts, and the Norman Thomas quote (IE Democrats have become the socialists) that was never said. Just the other day I was in a store getting some tools and they had the Lincoln quote about thrift and individual enterprise that he never said.


There should be a thread on all such quotes by prominent communist leaders that counter-revolutionaries take out of context and misguide people.

After I'm done with some things on my end I'll start one for the heck of it, not just limited to communists either as I mentioned with the Lincoln quote.

[blake 3:17]

I meant to look this up when I was at home yesterday, because the wording Pipes uses is from the English translation of Lukacs's History and Class Consciousness and not a translation of any work by Marx.

What section of HC&C is it from?

[S.Artesian]

Richard Pipes quoted Karl Marx: "The present generation resembles the Jews whom Moses led through the wilderness. It must not only conquer a new world, it must also perish in order to make a room for the people who are fit for a new world."

Here anti-communist Professor Pipes wants Marx to mean that these people should be executed when in reality Marx means that the old generation needs to be replaced by a new one (as every generation is through old age and natural death), which reared under the new socialist relations will be able to establish a better society.

What do you guys think?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_terror#cite_note-3

As Zanthorus already stated-- Marx never said that.

[mikelepore]

This is where Lukacs claims that Marx said it:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lukacs/works/history/ch08.htm