Perfect Political Tactics for the Current Crisis

[RED DAVE]

A mail bomb addressed to the Mexican Embassy exploded at a delivery service in central Athens on Monday, burning one worker. Two Greek men were arrested nearby carrying pistols and mail bombs, one addressed to French President Nicolas Sarkozy, police said.

A bomb in a package addressed to the Dutch Embassy was seized at another Athens delivery company.

Greek authorities said one of the men is suspected of belonging to Conspiracy Nuclei of Fire, a domestic anarchist group that has carried out dozens of arson and crude bomb attacks - part of a wave of violence that broke out following massive riots triggered by the police shooting of a teenager in December, 2008.http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/greece-suspects-carried-letter-bomb-for-sarkozy/19697801?icid=main|main|dl1|sec3_lnk1|181563 (http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/greece-suspects-carried-letter-bomb-for-sarkozy/19697801?icid=main%7Cmain%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk1%7C1815 63)

Just what we need right now: terrorism.

RED DAVE

[Widerstand]

Not sure if sarcastic or not, anyway terrorism is hardly a means to any agreeable end.

[Who?]

:ohmy:

How do you expect us to properly make total destroy without using such tactics?

[RED DAVE]

:ohmy:

How do you expect us to properly make total destroy without using such tactics?By working with and helping to organize the working class for the "total" overthrow of capitalism.

RED DAVE

[The Douche]

Wahhhhhh some people are using tactics I disagree with wahhhhhhhh.:rolleyes:

Red dave, I get it, you have a schtick, you're the jaded old guy. But at least try and contribute something. I get it, you believe in union work, nobody is telling anybody not to do that (even though I think its useless as a revolutionary route), do whatever you think is necessary.

[Aloysius]

Terrorism's fun, but when you get caught doing it, you tend to...well, die.

[red cat]

The Greek working class shall decide its own route to revolution. If we are not fully aware of the circumstances and reasons behind an action, we should not pass any comment denouncing it. And yes, when the organization under question has participation and popular support from the working class, then there is nothing great about commenting in a disrespectful tone.

[Widerstand]

And yes, when the organization under question has participation and popular support from the working class, then there is nothing great about commenting in a disrespectful tone.

Lots of right wing, centrist, or otherwise pro-capitalist organizations have "participation and popular support from the working class"...

[Aloysius]

Then the working class needs to get educated.

[WeAreReborn]

Then the working class needs to get educated.
If only they cared enough to get educated... Apathy from their situation is the biggest obstacle. Though obviously once they get educated they will want revolution but it is much easier said then done. Not saying agitating local communities is useless or futile, the opposite but just saying.

[Amphictyonis]

Wahhhhhh some people are using tactics I disagree with wahhhhhhhh.:rolleyes:

Red dave, I get it, you have a schtick, you're the jaded old guy. But at least try and contribute something. I get it, you believe in union work, nobody is telling anybody not to do that (even though I think its useless as a revolutionary route), do whatever you think is necessary.

Violent attacks on the state just when a movement is gaining momentum will sever ties we have with the not so radical community. I've always been a tad confused by anarchists wanting to be the vanguard ;) How did it work out in the past? Lets just take one small case, Berkman. When Berkman tried to kill Frick how did the workers respond?

I'm all for propaganda of the deed but only when the social construct is at a tipping point. Things aren't that bad yet.

[Thirsty Crow]

Violent attacks on the state just when a movement is gaining momentum will sever ties we have with the not so radical community. I've always been a tad confused by anarchists wanting to be the vanguard ;) How did it work out in the past? Lets just take one small case, Berkman. When Berkman tried to kill Frick how did the workers respond?

That is one valid point. And a useful historical comparison.
In this age, terrorist attacks (in the "Western world") won't get the working class nowhere.

[Widerstand]

Violent attacks on the state just when a movement is gaining momentum will sever ties we have with the not so radical community. I've always been a tad confused by anarchists wanting to be the vanguard ;) How did it work out in the past? Lets just take one small case, Berkman. When Berkman tried to kill Frick how did the workers respond?

I'm all for propaganda of the deed but only when the social construct is at a tipping point. Things aren't that bad yet.

You realize that it's not even confirmed that they are anarchists? There are many groups in Greece which have been called "anarchist" which neither self-identify as, nor are in any theoretical sense, eg. the Revolutionary Sect.

Further, "propaganda of the deed" is a stupid concept and the vast majority of anarchists recognize it as such. That, of course, doesn't mean that all violence is stupid.

To Berkman: If he is to blame for anything, it's for his failure to understand that the workers were not radicalized enough.

[4 Leaf Clover]

After all critics of marxist-leninist tactics and theory , we get a final solution for revolutionary tactics. Randomly blow workers with explosive devices. No thank you

[Enragé]

while i find these tactics far from commendable

people should stop fucking criticising other people's tactics till they've actually found ones that work themselves

because FACE IT!
ALL OUR TACTICS ARE FAILING WORLDWIDE!
and, mind you, have been doing so for quite some time now.
So NO! you cant blame it on 'we havent been at it for long enough'.

[The Douche]

Violent attacks on the state just when a movement is gaining momentum will sever ties we have with the not so radical community. I've always been a tad confused by anarchists wanting to be the vanguard ;) How did it work out in the past? Lets just take one small case, Berkman. When Berkman tried to kill Frick how did the workers respond?

I'm all for propaganda of the deed but only when the social construct is at a tipping point. Things aren't that bad yet.

How much do you know about the situation in Greece? I've studied it pretty intensely, mostly becaue I consider myself an insurrectionary anarchist, and I wanted to see how the insurectionary types in Greece (since they are anti-organizationalist) were being able to lead such a large movement/have so much support/participation from the broader working class.

Seems to me like you think this is just some random people who randomly decided to mail people bombs. Its not. Revolutionary violence is essentially an accepted part of the political process in Greece. You have to understand that there has been violence in the Greek political process for the past 60 or so years.

I suggest you read "we are a vision from the future", they talk to lots of anarchists from different parts of the movement, and non-anarchist people as well. And one of the main things the anarchists say in response to how militant they are/how easily their militance is accepted (comparatively) is that they were always this militant. They were always attacking cops, always using bombs and guns, always using molotovs, even when it wasn't popular, and now that the struggle is widening the masses know that these tactics have always been in use by the anarchists, that the anarchists have always been attacking state and capital, and that is what has contributed to their growth/the legitimacy they are seen with.

[red cat]

Lots of right wing, centrist, or otherwise pro-capitalist organizations have "participation and popular support from the working class"...

Yes, but they never attempt to overthrow the ruling classes, which clearly the Greek anarchists are aiming for.

[Amphictyonis]

How much do you know about the situation in Greece?

Perhaps not as much as you. If the general population in Greece is willing to accept/support violence against the state then by all means, have at it. I was more so speaking to my experiences here in the USA.

It would be very counterproductive for anarchists in the US to mail bombs etc.

[The Douche]

Perhaps not as much as you. If the general population in Greece is willing to accept/support violence against the state then by all means, have at it. I was more so speaking to my experiences here in the USA.

It would be very counterproductive for anarchists in the US to mail bombs etc.

But the arguement that the Greek comrades are making, as to "how do we get the movement against state/capital to be more militant", is to be as militant as we can be, regardless of how accepted it is, because if it can be sustained it becomes seen as "part of the political landscape".

Do you think people in Israel are suprised when a rocket attack happens? No, its "just another rocket attack", violence is a part of the political landscape. So in Greece, where violence is understood to be part of politics (through the actions of those not afraid to perpetrate acts of violence) it becomes acceptable for "regular people" to participate in violence at certain times as well.

[Amphictyonis]

Do you think people in Israel are suprised when a rocket attack happens? No, its "just another rocket attack", violence is a part of the political landscape.

And the people of Israel support all manner of homicidal policies forced on Palestinians in return. I'm not a pacifist- perhaps you'd fair well from reading 'The Art Of War'. You gotta know when hold'em and know when to fold'em, know when to walk away, know when to run.

I'm not saying Kenny Rogers is a revolutionary, I'm saying, without a mass movement violence is counter productive. Violence isn't going to be the spark which awakens a class conscious mass movement. The attacks in living standards will do that.

Answer this honestly, if I were to take a video camera around Greece and ask 1000 people to define socialism and all it's traditions would I be likely to get a majority of people with an objective view? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not so sure Greece is a nation of class conscious socialists ready to overthrow capitalism.

If you could convincingly explain to me in great detail exactly how bombing the state/police/politicians is going to lead to a successful revolution under the current conditions in Greece then I'd be open to cheer you on. I'll even light the fuse for you.

[The Douche]

If you could convincingly explain to me in great detail exactly how bombing the state/police/politicians is going to lead to a successful revolution under the current conditions in Greece then I'd be open to cheer you on. I'll even light the fuse for you.

I don't think this.

All I'm saying is, I support a diversity of tactics. And I will not condemn people who bombs embassies. And I see how it is a valid tactic, and I see how constantly using violence (even when its not popular) is a good idea, because it makes people agree that violence is a legitimate expression of politics.

[Amphictyonis]

I don't think this.

All I'm saying is, I support a diversity of tactics. And I will not condemn people who bombs embassies. And I see how it is a valid tactic, and I see how constantly using violence (even when its not popular) is a good idea, because it makes people agree that violence is a legitimate expression of politics.

'Normalizing' people to the idea that a violent workers revolution is not only possible but necessary? I guess if Greece is at that stage, sure, all I know for sure is the USA is not.

[The Douche]

'Normalizing' people to the idea that a violent workers revolution is not only possible but necessary? I guess if Greece is at that stage, sure, all I know for sure is the USA is not.

I think you're missing the larger point. Greece didn't get that way cause people built mass parties and participated in elections or organized unions or squatted buildings or started bike sharing circles (though all those things happen and are part of the struggle in Greece and around the world).

Certain people said to themselves "we know how its going to be percieved, but we need to do it anyways" and they went out and started assassinating people and planting bombs. Now we see an increase in the militancy of mass movements in Greece (and to some extent in France) because of thier actions.

If we don't have a diversity of tactics then we have tactical limitations. Thats why we should always support actions that fellow revolutionaries take. (though obviously we can be critical in our support, this was poorly planned obviously, as a worker was injured)

[Blackscare]

Certain people said to themselves "we know how its going to be percieved, but we need to do it anyways" and they went out and started assassinating people and planting bombs. Now we see an increase in the militancy of mass movements in Greece (and to some extent in France) because of thier actions.

Really? That's pretty hilarious if you actually think that in a country such as Greece, a nation that has suffered pretty catastrophic material blows to living conditions, etc, that you can convincingly claim a rising radical conciousness originated from letter bombs and the like.

I think it's pretty clear that these tactics were getting nowhere with the public for a long time and that now they're growing because these happen to be times that breed radicalism.

I mean, you'd have to be a pretty shitty radical group of any kind to not experience some rise in support, even for nihilist anarchists.

[Amphictyonis]

I think you're missing the larger point. Greece didn't get that way cause people built mass parties and participated in elections or organized unions or squatted buildings or started bike sharing circles (though all those things happen and are part of the struggle in Greece and around the world).

Certain people said to themselves "we know how its going to be percieved, but we need to do it anyways" and they went out and started assassinating people and planting bombs. Now we see an increase in the militancy of mass movements in Greece (and to some extent in France) because of thier actions.

If we don't have a diversity of tactics then we have tactical limitations. Thats why we should always support actions that fellow revolutionaries take. (though obviously we can be critical in our support, this was poorly planned obviously, as a worker was injured)

It wouldn't work in the USA. How did it work in Germany? Time will tell, thus far I think time (history) has shown, in most cases, violence tends to repel the not so radical working class and in many cases creates quite the reactionary response. I'm also smart enough to realize different regions around the globe have different sociopolitical realities. If I were intimately familiar with Greece as I am America I'd comment further.

I will say, I'm not sure if I'd want violence an everyday part of the struggle. I don't think it necessary (until it's necessary). You and I simply disagree on timing (and perhaps the sort of atmosphere which will lead to revolution). I think declining material conditions will lead to revolution. Violent revolution. I think it's our job to make sure workers know an alternative economic system when this happens so it's not simply an aimless uprising.

You can't take credit for the revolutionary potential in Greece, I should say, violence cannot take credit- the spark lighting the outrage/protests has in fact been attacks on material conditions. As the attacks keep coming, as they get worse with each crisis, a breaking point will be reached. At that point we will see violence. We'll see the entire system be demolished. I don't think any capitalist nation is quite there yet.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Fascists/right-wingers would NEVER use bombs. Nah.

I don't think anarchists (or any leftist) would put workers lives at risk like that. It's just like that bombing that killed the young girl outside Parliament. As far as I'm aware, there was never any communique about that. Where is the communique for these bombings? Or does revleft just believe everything the media says?

[Amphictyonis]

Fascists/right-wingers would NEVER use bombs. Nah.

I don't think anarchists (or any leftist) would put workers lives at risk like that. It's just like that bombing that killed the young girl outside Parliament. As far as I'm aware, there was never any communique about that. Where is the communique for these bombings? Or does revleft just believe everything the media says?

It's not a Marxist Vs Anarchist thing. There have been Marxist/Leninists who have used violence in the 20'th and 21'st century. It's more so a question of what role does/should violence have in advanced capitalist nations which are not at 'full revolutionary potential'.

It's not going to be violence which sparks the revolution it will be worsening material conditions combined with socialist ideology and then violence.

Take the RAF in Germany. They killed politicians, bombed police etc. Is Germany now a socialist nation? Their use of violence was premature. I don't condemn the use of violence in some self righteous manner I simply question it's effectiveness and ask an honest question, will it attract or repel the non radical working class? Will it strengthen or weaken the bourgeois states control over workers minds?

[Amphictyonis]

I consider myself an insurrectionary anarchist, and I wanted to see how the insurectionary types in Greece (since they are anti-organizationalist) were being able to lead such a large movement/have so much support/participation from the broader working class.



By your posts in the Science and Technology section it doesn't sound like you want the working class to take over the means of production it sounds like you want the working class to destroy the industrial means of production and industrial society itself.

Correct me if I'm wrong here?

[Ravachol]

I think the entire constructive/destructive dichtomy is a rather false one.
The process of the formation of community that of living and the process of struggle are to be integral parts to a whole.

Class consciousness doesn't arise from material conditions alone, it propagates through the social terrain and the bonds and community formed on this terrain. Thus for consciousness (and accompanying militance) to propagate effective forms of 'struggeling community' are to be found.

I'll quote a passage I usually quote with regards to this matter:



The first offensive campaign against Empire failed. The RAF’s attack against the “imperialist system,” that of the Red Brigades against the SIM (Imperialist State of the Multinationals) and many other guerilla actions were easily repelled. The failure was not that of this or that combatant organization or of this or that “revolutionary subject,” but the failure of a conception of war; a conception of war that could not be revived beyond these organizations because it was already a revival itself. With the exception of some texts of the RAF or of the June 2nd Movement, there are still today very few documents issued from the “armed struggle” that were not written in this awkward, ossified, armored language, which falls, in one way or another, into Third International kitsch. It’s as if they are trying to dissuade anyone from joining them.

(..)

The return to war demands a new conception of these.
We have to invent a form of war such that the defeat of Empire will no longer be a task which kills us, but which lets us know how to live, to be more and more ALIVE.

What we are talking about here is simply the constitution of war machines. By war machine, it is necessary to understand a certain coincidence of living and struggling, coincidence which does not present itself without simultaneously demanding to be built.
Because each time one of these terms finds itself in some way separated from the other, the war machine degenerates, goes off track. If it is the moment of living that is unilateralized, it becomes ghetto. It is in here that we bear witness to the sinister quagmire of “the alternative,” in which the purpose seems without ambiguity to be the commodification of the Self under the envelope of difference. The majority of occupied social centers in Germany, Italy or Spain, demonstrate how simulated exteriority to Empire can be a precious resource in capitalist valorization. “The Ghetto, the justifying of “difference,” the privilege given to all introspective and moral aspects, the tendency to consitute oneself as a separate society renouncing assault on the capitalist machine, on the “social factory,” is all of this perhaps a result of the vague and gushing rhapsodic “theories” of Valcarenghi [the director of the counter-cultural publication Re Nudo] and his consorts? Isn’t it strange that they accuse us of being a “sub-culture” precisely now when all of the flowery shit and non-violence that accompanies it is in crisis?” the autonomists of Senza Tregua already wrote in 1976.

On the other hand, if it is the moment of struggling that is isolated, the war machine degenerates into army. All of the militant formations, all of the terrible communities are war machines that have survived their own extinction in this petrified form.

(..)

War can’t be allowed to be put away as an isolated moment from our existence, as the decisive confrontation; from now on, it is our existence itself, in all of its aspects, that is war. That is to say that the first movement of this war is reappropriation. Reappropriation of means to live-and-struggle. Reappropriation, then, of spaces: squat, occupation or collectivizing private spaces. Reappropriation of what’s in common: constitution of languages, syntaxes, means of communication, of an autonomous culture –snatching the transmission of experience from the hands of the State. Reappropriation of violence: communizing fighting techniques, forming self-defense forces, arms. Lastly, reappropriation of basic survival: diffusion of medical knowledge-ability, progressive organization of a network of autonomous resupply.

[Delenda Carthago]

Which one of you,specially those talkin shit on the the action,knows

A.Who did it

B.What is their connection with the left in general

C.What is their views on urban guerrila,what do they want to achieve...

[Delenda Carthago]

It's not a Marxist Vs Anarchist thing. There have been Marxist/Leninists who have used violence in the 20'th and 21'st century. It's more so a question of what role does/should violence have in advanced capitalist nations which are not at 'full revolutionary potential'.

It's not going to be violence which sparks the revolution it will be worsening material conditions combined with socialist ideology and then violence.

Take the RAF in Germany. They killed politicians, bombed police etc. Is Germany now a socialist nation? Their use of violence was premature. I don't condemn the use of violence in some self righteous manner I simply question it's effectiveness and ask an honest question, will it attract or repel the non radical working class? Will it strengthen or weaken the bourgeois states control over workers minds?


other than RAF,Germany had movements,parties,class struggles.RAF didnt came out of nowhere you know...Is Germany a socialist nation?So,according to you,demostrations,strikes etc are ALSO bankrupt.

[syndicat]

Class consciousness doesn't arise from material conditions alone, it propagates through the social terrain and the bonds and community formed on this terrain. Thus for consciousness (and accompanying militance) to propagate effective forms of 'struggeling community' are to be found.



Development of class consciousness certainly does not arise out of being a passive spectator. And small secretive groups acting out violently in isolation, with no organic link to an actual working class mass movement, do nothing at all to develop any sense or reality of increased working class power. that's because their sense of power can only develop if it's their own actions and self-organization that are the basis of that power, otherwise it's not their power.

[Widerstand]

Take the RAF in Germany. They killed politicians, bombed police etc. Is Germany now a socialist nation? Their use of violence was premature. I don't condemn the use of violence in some self righteous manner I simply question it's effectiveness and ask an honest question, will it attract or repel the non radical working class? Will it strengthen or weaken the bourgeois states control over workers minds?


other than RAF,Germany had movements,parties,class struggles.RAF didnt came out of nowhere you know...Is Germany a socialist nation?So,according to you,demostrations,strikes etc are ALSO bankrupt.

The point stands though, that the RAF's use was premature. While there have been debatable positive effects of their actions, they also alienated a good number of people from the movement (indeed their highpoint pretty much marked the end of the German APO/SDS), and gave way for §129a, a notorious paragraph used to persecute leftists.

[scarletghoul]

Funny all you critics, I don't see protests against letterbombs in Greece. What I do see is a storm of revolutionary rage against the government and its pigs.

Some are talking like these are completely isolated terrorist cells that have nothing to do with the masses. That's clearly not true, as the violent attacks have increased with the working class's consciousness and mobilisation. This is guerilla warfare, albeit low intensity, and is a part of the mass revolutionary movement.

[DaringMehring]

There are unsuccessful tactics, and there are unsuccessful tactics that kill working class folks.

There is violent revolution by the class to take the state power, and there is terrorism by individuals trying to lead the masses.

If unclear --- reread the history of the Russian social democracy and the Narodniks.

[Widerstand]

There are unsuccessful tactics, and there are unsuccessful tactics that kill working class folks.

There is violent revolution by the class to take the state power, and there is terrorism by individuals trying to lead the masses.

If unclear --- reread the history of the Russian social democracy and the Narodniks.

Do you think revolutionary struggle can be without violence?
Do you think violence can be without friendly fire?
I doubt "killing working class folks" was the intent of this action.

[DaringMehring]

Do you think revolutionary struggle can be without violence?

No.


Do you think violence can be without friendly fire?No.



I doubt "killing working class folks" was the intent of this action.
I don't know what delusional thoughts they had.

It isn't a revolution, and their actions are not bringing the revolution. Just look at the failure of the Narodnik terrorists. They failed. They were failures. They only succeeded in killing working people.

Look at the Bolshevik critique of the Narodniks. Anyone who has any basis in Marxism must reject "tactics" (if you can even dignify it with such a name) like the mail bomb.

[Amphictyonis]

Class consciousness doesn't arise from material conditions alone I've never once insinuated such. Revolt arises from attacks on material conditions, class consciousness spreads through each persons efforts in the community and workplace (struggle)- does this struggle necessitate mail bombs? Revolt without a broad movement (which as attained socialist class consciousness) is useless.