Former Marxist guerilla to become Brazil's first woman president

[ComradeMan]

Former Marxist guerilla to become Brazil's first woman president.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/8037653/Former-Marxist-guerilla-poised-to-become-Brazils-first-woman-president.html

Any thoughts or opinions?

[red cat]

The tigress has been tamed.

[Roach]

The tigress has been tamed.
What you mean ?

[red cat]

What you mean ?

She was a revolutionary. It's all in the past.

[ComradeMan]

She was a revolutionary. It's all in the past.

Revolutions have stages and there is nothing to say that as one phase exitnguishes another one does not begin.

Comparing Brazil now, poised to elect an ex-Marxist guerilla as president to the Brazil of 30-40 years ago it is a sign that Brazil has come a long way... there is a long way to go but still.

[red cat]

Revolutions have stages and there is nothing to say that as one phase exitnguishes another one does not begin.

Comparing Brazil now, poised to elect an ex-Marxist guerilla as president to the Brazil of 30-40 years ago it is a sign that Brazil has come a long way... there is a long way to go but still.

I agree that a new revolutionary movement in Brazil might be going on. But this ex-Marxist guerrillera has nothing to do with it. The situation is not that the revolutionary forces are creating a political deadlock; it is just that imperialism is diverting the revolutionary sentiment of the masses by placing in power someone who can be associated with the past revolutionary movement, but is totally harmless to the ruling classes at present.

[ComradeMan]

I agree that a new revolutionary movement in Brazil might be going on. But this ex-Marxist guerrillera has nothing to do with it. The situation is not that the revolutionary forces are creating a political deadlock; it is just that imperialism is diverting the revolutionary sentiment of the masses by placing in power someone who can be associated with the past revolutionary movement, but is totally harmless to the ruling classes at present.

Do you have evidence for that assertion?

[red cat]

Do you have evidence for that assertion?

Has she come into power through any fundamental change in the relations of production anywhere ?

[Roach]

Has she come into power through any fundamental change in the relations of production anywhere ?

Actually her plataform was literally ''keep the goverment like it is'', or ''continuing Lula's legacy''.

[scarletghoul]

Actually her plataform was literally ''keep the goverment like it is'', or ''continuing Lula's legacy''.
To be fair she'd have no chance of getting elected if she had any other platform.

Not that I support her, just saying

[ComradeMan]

She seems a bit of an ambiguous character with some of her policy lines- Scarletghoul does make a good point though...

[Bud Struggle]

She seems a bit of an ambiguous character...

Or maybe just an ambitious character. ;)

[Fabrizio]

Good luck to her, may Brazil continue to progress. :)

[Post-Something]

I think you guys are reading this wrong. I think what shes doing is pretty revolutionary. Forget what her views are, or why she is there. She is creating tension just by her position. There will be people who are against her because she is a woman, and there will be people who are against her because she was an old marxist. There will be a growing divide in public opinion that will only be contributing to a larger "class battle". Even if she is not having anything to do with it, it will make things easier for the marxists in the future.

[red cat]

I think you guys are reading this wrong. I think what shes doing is pretty revolutionary. Forget what her views are, or why she is there. She is creating tension just by her position. There will be people who are against her because she is a woman, and there will be people who are against her because she was an old marxist. There will be a growing divide in public opinion that will only be contributing to a larger "class battle". Even if she is not having anything to do with it, it will make things easier for the marxists in the future.

Let's say there is such a divide in public opinion. In that case, most of the masses who don't know anything about communism other than the fact that communist guerrillas used to fight for their rights, will see an emancipator in her, and follow her. Since she is not a Marxist anymore, she will then neutralize the revolutionary potential of the masses with clever maneuvering. A close example of this is the left-front government of West Bengal in India. Revisionists take part in class-struggle only against the proletariat.

[Post-Something]

Let's say there is such a divide in public opinion. In that case, most of the masses who don't know anything about communism other than the fact that communist guerrillas used to fight for their rights, will see an emancipator in her, and follow her. Since she is not a Marxist anymore, she will then neutralize the revolutionary potential of the masses with clever maneuvering. A close example of this is the left-front government of West Bengal in India. Revisionists take part in class-struggle only against the proletariat.

You are right, the government may take the appropriate actions to neutralize any political opposition, and its especially difficult because as a former marxist, she probably knows very well how to do this. It does put marxists at a disadvantage. But this is also where good politics and strategy are key. Say hypothetically she made a couple of people political dissidents and kept a close eye on the media. Maybe even took some fundamental liberties away from the political activists or took action against some trade unions. Then the marxists can use even this move and turn it around against the state. Claim it is unjust, that they are denying their rights, that they are putting a cap on free speech. The marxists will only benefit from conflict, whereas the state will just look vulnerable.

[red cat]

You are right, the government may take the appropriate actions to neutralize any political opposition, and its especially difficult because as a former marxist, she probably knows very well how to do this. It does put marxists at a disadvantage. But this is also where good politics and strategy are key. Say hypothetically she made a couple of people political dissidents and kept a close eye on the media. Maybe even took some fundamental liberties away from the political activists or took action against some trade unions. Then the marxists can use even this move and turn it around against the state. Claim it is unjust, that they are denying their rights, that they are putting a cap on free speech. The marxists will only benefit from conflict, whereas the state will just look vulnerable.

"The worse, the better" might not always work as a principle. Keeping that aside, our fundamental duty is to denounce her, since she is just another puppet of the old ruling class. We divide the people who help the revolution in two categories; those who help it positively and those who help it negatively. She falls in the same category as Kerensky, Chiang Kai Shek etc. though not at the same level may be.

[Amphictyonis]

The tigress has been tamed.
"Dilma Rousseff, who spent nearly three years in jail during her country's years of military dictatorship and was tortured behind bars"

Tortured into submission or simply taking the reformist route?

[red cat]

"Dilma Rousseff, who spent nearly three years in jail during her country's years of military dictatorship and was tortured behind bars"

Tortured into submission or simply taking the reformist route?

Can be anything. But in case of battle-hardened Marxists, greed is usually a more powerful enemy than fear.

[black magick hustla]

she is just a human being why so much faith

[Luís Henrique]

it is just that imperialism is diverting the revolutionary sentiment of the masses by placing in power someone who can be associated with the past revolutionary movement, but is totally harmless to the ruling classes at present.

Whatever, "imperialism" certainly didn't place her in power (on the contrary, it more or less openly supported José Serra).

Luís Henrique

[Cane Nero]

Whatever, "imperialism" certainly didn't place her in power (on the contrary, it more or less openly supported José Serra).

Luís Henrique

What about PMDB, an old PSDB (José Serra ) ally, now allied to the PT ?

[Albania]

So Brazil just like Uruguay, which voted in an ex-guerilla fighter has President, have Presidents who truly earned there positions. Todays most politicians talk alot but when it comes to personal sacrifice they stop short. Both Brazils and Uruguays new Presidents went through many personal sacrifice s for what they believed in.

[red cat]

So Brazil just like Uruguay, which voted in an ex-guerilla fighter has President, have Presidents who truly earned there positions. Todays most politicians talk alot but when it comes to personal sacrifice they stop short. Both Brazils and Uruguays new Presidents went through many personal sacrifice s for what they believed in.

Are they now representing the system they once believed in ?

[Albania]

Are they now representing the system they once believed in ?

No, since they are following the party line of the party that got them elected. If they followed there original political philoshy chances are they would alienate many of there supporters. In the end politiics is about giving up some things in order to have something else, compomise.

[red cat]

No, since they are following the party line of the party that got them elected. If they followed there original political philoshy chances are they would alienate many of there supporters. In the end politiics is about giving up some things in order to have something else.

Shouldn't the gains, at least on the long run, be more than the losses in that case ? How does dissolving one's political activities totally into the bourgeois parliamentary system help in making a revolution ?

[Albania]

Shouldn't the gains, at least on the long run, be more than the losses in that case ? How does dissolving one's political activities totally into the bourgeois parliamentary system help in making a revolution ?


In answering your first question, I think so. Afterall, if they had not been elected chances are a less people pro-party might have gotten control. And they might have undone what has already been achieved.

To answer your second question. If you mean achieveing via a nations legislature a pro-workers political system then I would say it is possible. But chances of that happening depend on how bad off the ordinary citizens are.
Legislators usually, not always, like to pander to the people who voted them in.

[Cane Nero]

So Brazil just like Uruguay, which voted in an ex-guerilla fighter has President, have Presidents who truly earned there positions. Todays most politicians talk alot but when it comes to personal sacrifice they stop short. Both Brazils and Uruguays new Presidents went through many personal sacrifice s for what they believed in.

Several former guerrilla leaders (at least here in Brazil) are involved in corruption schemes. One of the most famous is José Dirceu.

[Raúl Duke]

Besides being the first woman president for Brazil, nothing will change drastically (it seems, according to information at this present time.)

I find it silly all the wanking over the fact a former Marxist guerrilla got elected, it's pathetic. It doesn't mean a thing.

[Luís Henrique]

What about PMDB, an old PSDB (José Serra ) ally, now allied to the PT ?

They supported Dilma. I am not aware that they are the same thing as "imperialism" though. On the contrary, they seem more a federation of state-level political groups, some linked to the bourgeoisie, others to the landed oligarchy. They certainly do not represent the interests of the American (or German, or Japanese) embassy.

(They also don't have an actual national unity; some of their sections - Rio Grande do Sul, for instance - and leaders - Orestes Quércia comes to mind - openly supported Serra. But that's another issue.)

Luís Henrique

[Cane Nero]

They supported Dilma. I am not aware that they are the same thing as "imperialism" though. On the contrary, they seem more a federation of state-level political groups, some linked to the bourgeoisie, others to the landed oligarchy. They certainly do not represent the interests of the American (or German, or Japanese) embassy.

(They also don't have an actual national unity; some of their sections - Rio Grande do Sul, for instance - and leaders - Orestes Quércia comes to mind - openly supported Serra. But that's another issue.)

Luís Henrique
Exactly. This is one of the reasons I have not voted in Dilma.

[Crux]

I seem to remember responding in this thread. Anyway, I'll let the comrades on the ground speak for me: http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/4597

http://www.lsr-cit.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=677:voto-em-dilma-para-derrotar-a-direita-tucana-e-um-tiro-que-pode-sair-pela-culatra&catid=25:nacional&Itemid=27

[Crux]

New reports are up

http://www.lsr-cit.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=686%3Adilma-diante-do-brasil-real-novos-ataques-e-reafirmacao-do-compromisso-neoliberal&catid=25%3Anacional&Itemid=27&sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4cf92ba1b06b2a0c%2C0

[redz]

Former Marxist guerilla to become Brazil's first woman president.
[link deleted - can't yet post these]
Any thoughts or opinions?


Basically, 999 times out of 1,000, leftist guerillas are just reformists with guns, just trying to pressure the bourgeoisie to let them have a (little) share of the pie. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be defended against the state forces of the ruling class, but it does mean they are not a model for revolutionary action, and it should not be so shocking when they join the state apparatus of the ruling class (e.g., Sandinistas).

Redz

[red cat]

Basically, 999 times out of 1,000, leftist guerillas are just reformists with guns, just trying to pressure the bourgeoisie to let them have a (little) share of the pie.

Have you any proof to back up those numbers ?

[Luís Henrique]

Exactly. This is one of the reasons I have not voted in Dilma.

So if they hadn't supported Dilma you might have voted for her?

Luís Henrique

[IronEastBloc]

I take her election with caution.

after-all, wasn't current right-wing prime minister of Australia Julia Gillard once a communist?

[Fabrizio]

I take her election with caution.

after-all, wasn't current right-wing prime minister of Australia Julia Gillard once a communist?

Did she spend time in prison for being an active communist under a murderous dictatorship? Was she elected as part of a hugely popular centre-left party with a track record of progressive changes in power?

[Cane Nero]

So if they hadn't supported Dilma you might have voted for her?

Luís Henrique

As I said this is just one of the reasons I have not voted on her.
Anyway the important thing now is that PT has joined the PMDB, simply by having one of the largest stands in the House of Representatives, ignoring the fact of them not having the interests of the working class.

They want power to the PARTY, not power to the working class.

[ComradeMan]

They want power to the PARTY, not power to the working class.

Sounds familiar..... unfortunately.
:(

[Bud Struggle]

I take her election with caution.

after-all, wasn't current right-wing prime minister of Australia Julia Gillard once a communist?

"Former" could mean a LOT of things.

[Fabrizio]

They want power to the PARTY, not power to the working class.

Does the working class even want power to the working class at this stage in Brazil? Would the PT be better off out of pwoer spouting about that, and leaving the real poltiics to the right-wing bourgeois parties?

[Cane Nero]

Does the working class even want power to the working class at this stage in Brazil?


No, People here are more worried about what will happen in the next chapter in the soap-opera or when will start the Big Brother Brazil.:laugh:



Would the PT be better off out of power spouting about that, and leaving the real politics to the right-wing bourgeois parties?


Surely not. Just because I do not support the "left" wing party (which has many relations with the bourgeoisie as the right wing parties), does not mean that I support the right wing. I support the working class, that unfortunately puts all their hopes for change in populist politicians.

[Fabrizio]

No, People here are more worried about what will happen in the next chapter in the soap-opera or when will start the Big Brother Brazil.:laugh:

Yet they were still clever enough to tell between the PT and the opposition.

[Luís Henrique]

No, People here are more worried about what will happen in the next chapter in the soap-opera or when will start the Big Brother Brazil.:laugh:

Yeah... that kind of despise of working class actual people is what follows from the idealisation of an abstract "working class" that only exists in the realm of Platonic Ideas.


Surely not. Just because I do not support the "left" wing party (which has many relations with the bourgeoisie as the right wing parties), does not mean that I support the right wing. I support the working class, that unfortunately puts all their hopes for change in populist politicians.


If the working class is such a mess, why on earth would you support them?

Luís Henrique

[Cane Nero]

If the working class is such a mess, why on earth would you support them?



Because this class that produces all the wealth in our country and I support a revolution in the working class, as well.

I support the change in our culture to stop being interested in soap operas and idiots reality shows to start seeing what the politicians of shit that WE put in power benefit themselves and benefit the bourgeois minority with with numerous privileges, while the class that produced this wealth lives of crumbs.

You touched on the right subject. We live in this current system just because we let it exists and we are too lazy to change it.

I believe in this change, and you?

[Luís Henrique]

Because this class that produces all the wealth in our country and I support a revolution in the working class, as well.

I support the change in our culture to stop being interested in soap operas and idiots reality shows to start seeing what the politicians of shit that WE put in power benefit themselves and benefit the bourgeois minority with with numerous privileges, while the class that produced this wealth lives of crumbs.

You touched on the right subject. We live in this current system just because we let it exists and we are too lazy to change it.

I believe in this change, and you?

I believe in a real working class, made up of real people. And I don't think we are lazy or stupid.

Luís Henrique

[Cane Nero]

I believe in a real working class, made up of real people. And I don't think we are lazy or stupid.



When I say WE, I mean "we Brazilians", I'm just generalizing. I'm just not putting the blame for our situation in a person or a particular group.
And I'm sure there are very smart people here too, you misunderstood me.

We do not read books, and when we read is probably Twilight or Harry Potter.:lol:
I meant that we Brazilians generally prefer to spend our free time sitting on the couch watching soap operas, Faustão, Gugu program, among other TV´s trash. And worst of all, we value it. I saw people crying because their favorite character died in the soap opera, while forgets the real problems that we are living.

[Fabrizio]

We live in this current system just because we let it exists and we are too lazy to change it.



Just out of interest why do you think the only possible "actor" is the same one that is showing itself unwilling to act? What do you expect progressive to do while the working class keeps watching its soap operas - not vote, let the right wing in, and keep dreaming forever that the working class will act? Surely better to vote for the PT (I'm saying this as osmeone who was an activist for Kirchner's front (FPV) in Argentina and had to face the same kind of non-constructive arguments from the ultra-left. I thought it was a disease of the Argentinean left but maybe its the whole region.)

[ComradeMan]

When I say WE, I mean "we Brazilians", I'm just generalizing. I'm just not putting the blame for our situation in a person or a particular group.
And I'm sure there are very smart people here too, you misunderstood me.

We do not read books, and when we read is probably Twilight or Harry Potter.:lol:
I meant that we Brazilians generally prefer to spend our free time sitting on the couch watching soap operas, Faustão, Gugu program, among other TV´s trash. And worst of all, we value it. I saw people crying because their favorite character died in the soap opera, while forgets the real problems that we are living.

HA! I know that.

Two days ago I asked someone if they were following the "votation" and what they thought... they replied "No, I don't like reality TV!"- I thought they were being sarcastic and so I said who do you think will win... still thinking about one thing and they replied, "Really, I never watch Grande Fratello (Big Brother)...!" :crying:

[Cane Nero]

Just out of interest why do you think the only possible "actor" is the same one that is showing itself unwilling to act?

Most of the leftists here are the following idea: "We are the shepherds and the people are the sheep, so we have to show the way to the light, the absolute truth." One of the reasons the majority of the working class don´t act to create the revolution is something created by these "shepherds" who put the illusion in their heads that they can not act directly to their interests, that they are so stupid that they do not even know what they want. Then vote for people who promise a lot of things and don´t even do half of what they promised. I am tired of illusions.

I believe first in the revolution in the minds of the working class.
People here have an easy access to the internet, with a wealth of information at their fingertips, that is why I said we are lazy.





What do you expect progressive to do while the working class keeps watching its soap operas - not vote, let the right wing in, and keep dreaming forever that the working class will act? Surely better to vote for the PT .
No ,everybody stop watching these goddamn soap operas, get their asses out of the fucking couch and try to do something more usefull with their little spare time, and even better to find out why he has so little free time. I think it would be something very progressive.

Probably you have not researched very well the recent history of the PT, among other parties. Lula´s Vice President is a bourgeois, numerous allegations of corruption with several of its members, and now they allied themselves with the PMDB (a party considered by the Luis Henrique, who is affiliated with the PT, a party with bourgeois interests). You just want me to pick the least worst? Excuse me but I will not feed these parasites anymore.





(I'm saying this as osmeone who was an activist for Kirchner's front (FPV) in Argentina and had to face the same kind of non-constructive arguments from the ultra-left. I thought it was a disease of the Argentinean left but maybe its the whole region.)

Cool story, bro.