How do we eliminated Greed?

[mick.jones29]

I’m sure this has been asked a million times but I want to ask it in a certain way and I’m struggling to find an answer.
As Marxists we probably would mostly agree that influences from our surroundings has massive impact on how we evolve from childhood and our outlook on society. When we are constantly told that greed is good is it any wonder that some people turn out to be parasitic fat cats at the expense of others.
Please imagine our dream future. We’ve achieved our revolution and instituted many of our Marxist values and institutions throughout the world. In this future society, are we saying it is not possible for anyone to exhibit greed or self interest, and will always function in an altruistic way. You may say we would still need some laws and enforcements to ensure people behaved according to altruistic values but where you have laws and enforcement you have hierarchy and the possibility of oppression and exploitation. (This is the anarchist part of me coming through as I believe that all power structure should be dissolved).

Can we truly ensure that everybody operates for society and not themselves in a new society? How do we achieve this?
I’ve read a lot about human psychology and am fascinated with how people perceive each other and the world around them.

If I talk to a right winger, I can tell they are convinced with their argument and believe their view of the world very strongly. Some are definitely victims of the capitalist propaganda machine we are all barraged with, but others disturbingly seem to acknowledge this propaganda but still support it. This then raises the question how have WE (lefties) avoided been brain washed in to the same system. Can we deduce that all the rich are supportive of the status quo and all the poor are not, because evidence suggests there is some (if small) crossover.

Mick.

[Widerstand]

How exactly would 'greed' manifest in a society without property or money?

[scarletghoul]

I think you're approaching this from too much of a psychological view, its not just a case of "brainwashing"

The trick lies in the economics. People grow up greedy because that's how we succeed in a capitalist economy. This greed-based system stems from the old days of scarcity, when there wasnt much to go around. But now we have an abundance of wealth, enough for everyone to live a good life without exploiting each other, so a greed-based system has lost all justification. A socialist system would make greed useless and undesirable.

[Oswy]

The thing to remember is that greed is a response to specific material and ideological conditions, it's not some instinctive force as some might try and tell you. We do have an instinct to satisfy our needs, but there's an importance difference between seeking satisfaction of needs and the irrational pursuit of things above and beyond that, often to the point of self-harm. We need water, we don't need water to flow out of gold taps, and we never will. We live in a society, a capitalist society, which needs us to be greedy in order for it to function as it does, and we shouldn't underestimate the way the ideological sphere is filled with all kinds of messages, subtle and not so subtle, aimed at making us greedy and envious. At the same time we should think about a society in which real needs are satisfied, whether we're talking about food, clothing, shelter, medicine, social life, affection, sex, and so on. Greed is really a symptom, in capitalism a deliberately engineered symptom, of a society not satisfying our real needs, not a behaviour we should expect to manifest itself regardless of the kind of society we happen to be part of.

That would be my initial response.

[NecroCommie]

To say that greed is hostile to communism is to say that the interests of the individual are hostile to the interests of the collective. This is obviously a lie, and to understand that lie is to see why your personal interests (or greed) actually benefit from the welfare of the larger society.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=1180

So those who seek their own interests while damaging society are actually only fooling themselves with their individualist nonsense.

[mick.jones29]

I see where you are coming from. I'm really getting into human psychology rather than politics here. I guess in every society you have those who are good and those who are bad. The capitalist system necessitates greed as well as encouraging it. Its hard for me to imagine a world without greed. But if we could achieve it, it would be wonderful for society.

I want to understand what is going through our adversary's minds, why can they not see the truth that is staring in our faces.

To eliminate greed though and ensure altruism i think we have to go much further the socialism, to the higher state of communist as suggested by marx.

[empiredestoryer]

no chance

[Rafiq]

The purpose of a Marxist society isn't to make profit but to work together. Society overcame many primitive aspects. After the revolution, humans may overcome greed after a while.

[Ele'ill]

What about greed in the form of fame?

[Widerstand]

What about greed in the form of fame?

If I can't rep it's not my revolution.

[Oswy]

To say that greed is hostile to communism is to say that the interests of the individual are hostile to the interests of the collective...

I'd disagree with the suggestion that greed is in the 'individual's interests' however. 'Greed' should not be mistaken as just another word for the pursuit of need, it represents an irrational desire for things beyond need; being greedy with food isn't just seeking to satisfy your nutritional needs, nor even wanting to eat food that is pleasurable, it's more like rendering yourself morbidly obese by stuffing your face with pizza and cake. Moreover, in a world of finite resources an individual's greed directly threatens the collective's needs.

Humans are instinctively driven to satisfy their needs, yes, but I do not believe they are instinctively driven to be greedy. If the latter were the case then we'd all spend all day eating cake or whatever, and even in capitalist society, which strives hard to nurture greed, that doesn't happen.

[Rakhmetov]

How do we eliminate greed???

WHOLESALE REVOLUTIONARY TERROR WORLDWIDE

[noble brown]

im not so sure that greed is an acquired trait. no doubt the whole driving force of capitalism is the profit motive and this only diefies greed but greed at the very least originated w/ economical value if it isn't a natural condition of our psyche.

i really like psychology you sould look into social psychology. the in between of psychology and sociology.

[Amphictyonis]

I think you're approaching this from too much of a psychological view, its not just a case of "brainwashing"

The trick lies in the economics. People grow up greedy because that's how we succeed in a capitalist economy. This greed-based system stems from the old days of scarcity, when there wasnt much to go around. But now we have an abundance of wealth, enough for everyone to live a good life without exploiting each other, so a greed-based system has lost all justification. A socialist system would make greed useless and undesirable.
In other words, the Op should read- A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy.


THE LONG ANSWER

My inquiry led me to the conclusion that neither legal relations nor political forms could be comprehended whether by themselves or on the basis of a so-called general development of the human mind, but that on the contrary they originate in the material conditions of life, the totality of which Hegel, following the example of English and French thinkers of the eighteenth century, embraces within the term "civil society"; that the autonomy of this civil society, however, has to be sought in political economy. The study of this, which I began in Paris, I continued in Brussels, where I moved owing to an expulsion order issued by M. Guizot. The general conclusion at which I arrived and which, once reached, became the guiding principle of my studies can be summarized as follows:

(historical conception of history)
:)


There is no such thing as human nature. Material conditions and how we provide material sustenance determines our reality.

[WeAreReborn]

I think it is strange that you label yourself as Anarcho-Communist but you seem to be a Marxist by your statements. Not saying I have anything against Marxists, if anything quite the opposite, but just saying technically you can't be both.
Anyways as it has already been said no one can prove what human nature is since humans are so affected by their surroundings. So with that said human nature doesn't exist it is just social behavior. If we have a healthy society we will have healthy minds which don't practice greed or any other despicable acts, with rare occasions to people with brain defects. So greed isn't really a problem..

[Amphictyonis]

I think it is strange that you label yourself as Anarcho-Communist but you seem to be a Marxist by your statements. Not saying I have anything against Marxists, if anything quite the opposite, but just saying technically you can't be both.
Anyways as it has already been said no one can prove what human nature is since humans are so affected by their surroundings. So with that said human nature doesn't exist it is just social behavior. If we have a healthy society we will have healthy minds which don't practice greed or any other despicable acts, with rare occasions to people with brain defects. So greed isn't really a problem..

Who are you talking to?

[noble brown]

Anyways as it has already been said no one can prove what human nature is since humans are so affected by their surroundings. So with that said human nature doesn't exist it is just social behavior.

what if somone studied as many different sociocultures as they could and determined that there were indeed certain universals expressed across all those studied? would that suggest a human nature?

[WeAreReborn]

Who are you talking to?
Sorry Mick.Jones I could have sworn I quoted him :/.


what if somone studied as many different sociocultures as they could and determined that there were indeed certain universals expressed across all those studied? would that suggest a human nature?
Well cultures are all similar. They all have to do with human contact so if there is no human contact someone will be dramatically different then if one was extremely social. Though there are human tendencies, I think it is hard if not impossible or unjust to say that one action is human nature.

[Magón]

By either telling/showing people the follies of people who've become too greedy and where they have/will eventually end up. Or show by example, thus things will slowly but surely, hopefully, spread and people will realize.

There was a thing on the news I saw, that people were actually going into a more Minimalist Mindset/Attitude with what they owned/bought. So it might already be happening in some circles. These circles just have to make it mainstream and keep it there.

[mick.jones29]

I think it is strange that you label yourself as Anarcho-Communist but you seem to be a Marxist by your statements. Not saying I have anything against Marxists, if anything quite the opposite, but just saying technically you can't be both.
..

Well, i dont know if my description of me being an anacho-communist is technically correct, but here is why i think it is.

I agree with everything marx said, and want to see the end of capitalism and the birth of communism. I am interested in the higher state of communism and see no place for the state or indeed any power structures.
I believe in a society where people could opt in or out of the work place and receive no penalties for not joining in. But i also believe its almost inconceivable that anyone would wish to opt out of a community based society where we help each other.

Mick

[mick.jones29]

Why would eliminating greed be good for the society? Human beings need to be greedy in some situations based on the circumstances like the example I gave earlier of the workers demanding a fairer deal in a bourgeois society.

In a revolutionary society too, greed will be required for similar circumstances. One cannot be altruistic all the time.

One needs to be altruistic to save a drowning person. However if that action results in our own death, we may need to decide if it is worth being altruistic at that time. Ultimately, it is up to the individuals to decide between altruism and greed based on their circumstances. I don't think this has anything to with capitalism or communism.

This is a most interesting point. I'm using the word 'greed' in terms of people being self interested and not benefiting others by their actions. Your example of workers demanding a fairer deal i dont see as greedy, they are re-addressling an inbalance.

I do however see someone who acts in a purely self interested manner being in direct conflict with communist ideals. In the situation of saving a drowning man then your own basic survival is at stake. Even if it was in societies interest to lay down your life, in these situation logic would not be the first thing you would think of.

but for the most part issues of greed and self interest are less life or death but do affect how the community views us.

Mick.

[WeAreReborn]

Well, i dont know if my description of me being an anacho-communist is technically correct, but here is why i think it is.

I agree with everything marx said, and want to see the end of capitalism and the birth of communism. I am interested in the higher state of communism and see no place for the state or indeed any power structures.
I believe in a society where people could opt in or out of the work place and receive no penalties for not joining in. But i also believe its almost inconceivable that anyone would wish to opt out of a community based society where we help each other.

Mick
Hmm sorry if I am opposing my ideals on you. I think being a Marxist is great, though I'm not too fond of a Marxist-Leninist. Anyways, if you want to be grouped I guess you are technically a Marxist but when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter too much. Just thought I should point it out.

[scourge007]

Wouldn't a good way to eliminate greed is to educate the children first at an early age ? It seems that's where our greed starts at.

[Manic Impressive]

I know some people don't like the Zeitgeist project but I believe this little piece relates quite well to this topic


Sociology is often defined as "The study of society; human social interaction".
This field considers social structures, both Cognitive and Material. An example of a Cognitive Social Structure is the established institution of religion and how its operation affects the collective awareness. For instance, Prolife Christians share a disposition that human"life" is a separate element of nature and that killing an unborn fetus is wrong. Concurrently, the competition based monetary system has proponents putting forth ideas such as how competition is the most productive social state that humans can engage in.
Material Social Structures, on the other hand, are very obvious and they exist in the form of corporations and governments, each having a strong influence on society. Of course, all Material Social Structures bleed over into the Cognitive realm, for they always have an ideology behind them.
Now, a common sociological issue has to do with "Human Nature" and its effect in a collective sense. For instance, most people have been taught that human beings are naturally competitive with each other, along with the assumption that social stratification or hierarchy is also a "natural human tendency".
This is a fallacy.
If you look to, say, a pack of lions, you will see social hierarchy and violent competition for food in most cases. This comparison is what leads people to think it is a natural occurrence in human society as well (war, greed, ego, etc.). What is overlooked however, are the Environmental Conditions present in each case. The pack of Lions exist in a world of Scarcity. They do not have the ability to create traps for food, nor is food accessible in an 'on demand' basis. They have to hunt and fight with each other. This creates competition naturally, for in order to survive, the lions MUST be aggressive with each other. In turn, hierarchy is developed for the strongest of these lions wins the most, and in turn exert their dominance in a stratified way.
Likewise, in our current Human Society, the exact same thing is going on. Humans have been living in the same sort of scarcity since the dawn of existence. However, as time has gone on, we have become more and more "civilized" due to our ability to Create. Unlike the Lions, humans are able to create tools and set in motion processes that free the human being from a particular chore or problem, reducing Scarcity.
Given this "insight" we then see that on a fundamental level that if scarcity could be eradicated, then human behavior would undergo a dramatic change, moving away from competition, dominance and stratification.
Likewise, outmoded ideologies that do not stand up to the test of time, such as theistic religion, compound this myth that humans/society are built a certain way. For example, the Catholic ideology states that humans are "born with sin".
This is absurd, outmoded and based on a primitive understanding of human behavior.
There is no difference between a Ghandi baby or a Hitler baby... it is the environment that shapes the person and hence the society (and vice versa).
Therefore, true Sociological change will come from removing the conditions that cause the aberrant behavior patterns which pollute our societies. Prison, Police and Laws are mere patchwork and, in fact, tend to make things worse over time.
Ultimately, it is going to take a redesign of our culture to change human behavior for the better.

[Amado]

I would say that "greed" (if we think of that as that caricature of the fat man with a cigar sitting atop a pile of gold and screaming for more) doesn't exist in 90% of the populace of the world - sure, people want more, but they don't want excessively more. A comfortable life is enough for many people (it is also denied today to many people - funny!).

Sure, there are a few elements who do want more and more and more, but the question is, how will they actually realize that in a socialist society, one that doesn't provide the means for the bad apples to spoil the rest? I mean, how will they be able to exercise their greed if all means to do that (the extraction of surplus value) will be unavailable to them? The "greedy individual" will be as relevant as that guy who wants absolute monarchy back and all that he will be able to do will be whine on the Internet how teh evil socialiszms is putting the superman down.

[Tomhet]

How do we deal with Greed? With Force!!!

[chegitz guevara]

There is no such thing as human nature. Material conditions and how we provide material sustenance determines our reality.

It turns out Marx was wrong on this point. Humans are NOT tabla rossa, but in fact, hard wired for a number of different kinds of behaviors.

Human beings are multifaceted creatures. Greed is just one of many emotions which we have, and it's perfectly natural to have. The problem is, we live in a society that not only rewards greed, but makes greed necessary.

In communism, people will still be greedy, but they'll be greedy about different things, like status, etc. But not for things.