the necessity of criticizing unions

[danyboy27]

I know this is a touchy subject, but i think that ultimately, a good discussion will come out of it.

Union situation vary a lot in various countries, and most of them are doing a pretty good job at protecting the right of the worker, but in certain situations, they kinda perpetuate the cycle of capitalism that we live in.

I can see what they are doing here in Quebec, and its like a perpetual war, a never ending stalemate with the bosses, i just dont understand why there isnt more decisive move being taken to take control of the industries they are in, i really dont get it.

[Bud Struggle]

From what I understand as a business owner--you can buy them and they can do their little dance for a reasonable fee.

Then back to business as usual.

[danyboy27]

From what I understand as a business owner--you can buy them and they can do their little dance for a reasonable fee.

Then back to business as usual.

i got similar commentary from people who worked with bosses who had union in their buisnesses.

he said union where really convenient in the sense that, they dont really need to argues with a single employee over salary issues or work issues, all they have to do is negociate an advantageous collective convention with the union so that they can keep making truckload of money and still find devious way to pressure the worker of doing more within the rules of the convention.

[Dean]

Unions are corrupted by graft within capitalist industry - that is typically graft with the company they are contracting with. All democratic structures have these problems within capitalism.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Yeah, the thing is that all unions where, at some point, started by workers who realised that to change things, you must use organized force (the very tip of class struggle). Later on many unions have becomed hughe pyramides, where the members/workers dont knows whats going on in the top, you just pay youre membership, get the unions magazine and thats it.

The unions where this have becommed the reality, i dont see any hope eccept leaving them and forming new once.

[Sosa]

Unions have become very bureaucratic, with fat cats sitting at the top of the pyramid. A recent example is a GM plant in Indianapolis and the rank-in-file workers who threw out their union bosses after they secretly negotiated a 50% wage cut with GM executives behind the workers back and then tried to convince the workers to accept the deal.

Direct action is where its at.

[Revolution starts with U]

I live right outside the Cobalt factory, my grandpa worked there till shortly before he died. The past 4 years they have negotiated cuts for the workers, and the company still almost went under, and the owners/management still walked off with a ton of cash.

[PoliticalNightmare]

Basically, each worker needs have equal control over unions.

[Nolan]

There are good ones and horrible ones. Unfortunately, our political discussion on unions in this country is black and white. Either they're god's gift to man or lazy overpaid trash that does nothing if one person can't work that day. No exceptions, ever.

[RGacky3]

I've gotta be with Red America here, there are many unions that are strong and uncorrupted and extremely democratic.

The more democratic the union the harder it is to corrupt.

Making an argument that some uninos are corrupt and thus useless however is like arguing, that the democratic process is corruptable so we should just go back to a king.

[Sosa]

I've gotta be with Red America here, there are many unions that are strong and uncorrupted and extremely democratic.

The more democratic the union the harder it is to corrupt.

Making an argument that some uninos are corrupt and thus useless however is like arguing, that the democratic process is corruptable so we should just go back to a king.

Yea, you're absolutely right. I shouldn't say that all unions are bad, some are good but there are many who don't serve the interests of the workers.

[RGacky3]

Even the bad ones serve their interests much better than the capitalists, its like saying the State serves the capitalists interests, which it does, but it is a power that is susseptable to democratic pressure, the same with unions, even bad ones, which makes them many times better than just the capitalists.

[danyboy27]

if there would be a movement created with the aim of creating cooperative in workplace to get rid of the Union AND the bosses, would you support such movement?

At some point, i think its gonna be necessary where i live, but sadly, nobody is bringing this idea ever, i really wonder why.

Personally, i am really thinking about creating a family cooperative of some sort, some kind of experimental project, see how it goes.

[Revolution starts with U]

Workers should just start occupying business' and petitioning the banks for credit extensions; the "throw the bums out (literally)" strategy.
It worked at that one factory in IL, or IN, or wherever lol

EDIT: and eventually do the same to the bank!

[4514]

ive worked for the union- CFMEU australia (construction) for the past 9months and have just returned back to the tools,

and yea i heard and still hear the stories of kick backs "brown paperbags" and secret deals done with the bosses but i never once saw that shit, no agreement is done without a vote by the rank and file except for resource jobs (mining- with companies like rio tinto, bhp etc) but thats why we have union elections to vote in the officials to make those calls for the benefit of the union.

i do however hear your concern and often question this same subject.
over the past 35 years our union has achieved great change in the construcion industry, ohs laws, govt safety awards and wage increases where alot of our membership, myself included earn over $100,000 a year + 14%superannuation +long service leave
24-7 health accident cover, i could go on with the benefits but yea...
anyway my point being its been a long hard fight to achieve this but the newer generations dont understand this, they are majority wise "born with a silver spoon in their mouth" meaning our union is losing its working class roots, we have contributed to the capitalist class but not been able to educate our youth on the history of our past.

its a strange world in the union life but again you know our union must be doing something right when the australian govt spends over $30 million on task force set to break the union and gives them laws to interrogate workers
-without the right to a lawyer
-no right to silence
-not able to discuss interrogation with anyone else
all with penalty of up to 6 months jail and fines of up to $28000, take possession of assets house,car etc...
all i know is with both sides of the coin, workers will better off with unions until we take down the state and eliminate class all together :)

hoani aka 4514

[RGacky3]

if there would be a movement created with the aim of creating cooperative in workplace to get rid of the Union AND the bosses, would you support such movement?



And how would we make the workplace a cooperative? I see, getting workers together to make collective desicions, and to use direct action to take over the workplace from the capitalist, wait a second, that IS a union.

What your talking about its just making new unions within union shops.



Workers should just start occupying business' and petitioning the banks for credit extensions; the "throw the bums out (literally)" strategy.
It worked at that one factory in IL, or IN, or wherever lol

EDIT: and eventually do the same to the bank!


It was in Illinois, and THAT, is how workers get what they want.

[revolution inaction]

Making an argument that some uninos are corrupt and thus useless however is like arguing, that the democratic process is corruptable so we should just go back to a king.

no not really, it is possible to argue that we should aim for things like workers assemblies, mass meetings etc.

[RGacky3]

no not really, it is possible to argue that we should aim for things like workers assemblies,

Thats what Unions are, you can just change the name it won't change a thing, Unions are democratic workers organizations, some organized industrially some or organized by trade.

[revolution inaction]

Thats what Unions are, you can just change the name it won't change a thing, Unions are democratic workers organizations, some organized industrially some or organized by trade.

except many unions are not democratic and cant realistically be considered workers organisations (they contain workers, but are not under the control of those workers).

[RGacky3]

except many unions are not democratic and cant realistically be considered workers organisations (they contain workers, but are not under the control of those workers).

Many Unions are not that democratic your right, but all of them are more democratic than buisiness, so our fight should be for democratic unions and fighting to make other unions more democratic, but if theres anything that the ruling class would want for christmas, its the demonization of unions and getting rid of them, I agree some unions have been corrupted, but they are still one of the most democratic institutions around, ANYTHING that workers create for their interests the Capitalists will try to corrupt, but thats why we gotta fight for it.

[Revolution starts with U]

What's the name of that business in IL anyway? I can't remember

[RGacky3]

If you talking about the company in Capitalism a love story its in the movie, it was a windows and doors factory.

[Ele'ill]

Retail needs unions.

Here's a brief conversation I had with a store manager once- too bad you can't stop me if I've mentioned this before.

This company was putting up anti employee free choice act adverts in the break room and the like- I brought it to managment's attention that there was a company policy regarding posting politically and socially charged literature- it's simply not allowed. So I asked if I could post some counter literature to it- to keep people informed on both sides of the issue- fair is fair.

The store manager and I talked for a while about it and since some of the adverts had been torn down already (don't know if it was intentional or not) he said they would look into it but he was curious about my position.

He complained that the unions would stop store management from being able to put hourly workers on bathroom duty (as they had fired their third party custodial services for budget reasons) but when I brought up the issue that the rotation they had would favor departments containing people that were friends with managers- so the bathrooms would go uncleaned for a week and then suddenly the unfavorites would get stuck cleaning slop. (it was fucking disgusting- there was partial OSHA gear as well) he said 'I'd look into it'.

He complained about having to go through the unions to put people on register for 8 hours at the drop of a hat- he complained about 'lateral moves' (which are always forced and generally anything BUT lateral) he complained about contention regarding in-house HR- previous issues with commission that would again arrise - and so on and so forth

I explained to him that all I thought all of that can get worked out within a month- I'm worried about the workers at our distribution centers- who are they? How are they doing? What struggles are they engaged in? I said I'm worried about our in-house brands- where are they manufactured? Who are the workers there? What are their struggles? I want to network so that we can help each other out as we are all sharing common goals and common struggles- of course I then mentioned that it could potentially help store operations and some other bullshit that I made up on the spot-

That was a good conversation. :)

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Workers should just start occupying business' and petitioning the banks for credit extensions; the "throw the bums out (literally)" strategy.
It worked at that one factory in IL, or IN, or wherever lol
You must be thinking of Goose Island (http://www.amazon.com/Revolt-Goose-Island-Takeover-Economic/dp/1933633824) in IL. The link goes to a book on the revolt.

Of course there are unions to criticize, and of course there are democratic, anti-capitalist ones that need to be praised and worked on (IWW, CNT, FAU, SAC, etc.) The AFL-CIO has a lot of overpaid bureaucrats and rats at top, the Teamsters are the epitome of conservative corrupt unions, I've also heard the SEIU be called undemocratic. However, at the grassroots/local level, some of the unions are at least trying to help some of their workers, even if it says some rather populist/right-wing things (against foreign workers). I'm against these unions because they're not anti-capitalist, however I do support if people want to bore from within. But yes, a lot of these unions are going against their workers, and cutting employment and/or pay. The situation definitely isnt black and white. Every union should have it's analysis.

Of course there are going to be unions to criticize, but there are many to be praised and are honestly doing some good grassroots work.
I read somewhere that the CNT currently has somewhere around 35,000 members. Can anyone verify this, and are they organizing and educating in any industries?