Islam is a facist ideology

[balaclava]

Now before you all jump on me read on.

I saw some stuff on the UAF and it caused me to wonder why we have an anti-fascist organisation when we don't have any fascist organisations. That caused me to ask myself "what is a fascist / what is fascism? I looked up the standard dictionary definitions and that didn’t fit any organisation in the UK. I then joined here to ask the question ‘what is fascist’ but before I asked the question I searched for previous posts and came across a thread which asked that question. I found 3 things in that thread that steered me towards starting this thread, one was a post saying “not another question asking what is fascism,” the other was a post that pointed towards the 14 defining characteristic of fascism and finally after reading that thread I formed the view that everybody here had a different view on what is a fascist / fascism.

Before coming here I looked at the UAF site and I sent an email asking the same question and got no reply. I am now wondering whether some people with their own agendas have hijacked the word i.e. I am against x so I call x a fascist, nobody is going to argue that fascism is bad so consequently x must be bad.

Now getting back to the title of this topic (and not being one who shy’s away from controversy) again in that thread someone suggested that if the ‘14’ definition was a correct guide that the USA was fascist. I believe I could support a good argument that Islam conforms to those 14 defining characteristics and consequently is fascist.

OK now you can jump on me J

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Your middle sentence is absolutely spot on, the word Fascist has been devalued by it's wrong usage amongst the left.

Aside from that, I don't really think you can say Islam is Fascist, not is it an ideology. It is a part of religion, and should be opposed, on grounds of atheism, as much as any other religion, bearing in mind that we should also oppose those who are against Islam purely on xenophobic grounds.

[Patchd]

Those '14 defining characteristics of fascism' doesn't hold at all. It's a liberal's poor attempt at undermining authoritarian, conservative capitalism. I think everyone on this site would agree that fascism is always a reaction, it is essentially the last resort that the ruling class can take in order to secure their own power, and generally in periods when their rule is not threatened, authoritarian state control over the politics and economy of a given territory is not desired (by the capitalists themselves). In what form fascism will take we can't say, historically fascist groups have always used different scapegoats to attack, or used those 'traditional' values or institutions under attack in order to unite 'the nation'. The word fascism is overused though.

Essentially, it's a class collaborationist ideology because instead of saying that the main problem that is most underlying within society is the economics of it, it asserts that the problem is some obscure or abstract subject that usually requires defending from the terrible values of modern society. It doesn't have to be racist, although ethnic tensions are usually an easy and already existing factor that can be manipulated, and fascism definitely doesn't have to be specially anti-semitic either.

Islam is not a fascist religion, you can't get such a thing. Fascism is a socio-economic ideal, that isn't to say that islam can't be used to prop up fascism. Like any religion, it can be used to further support for the ruling elite. Take Franco's fascism in Spain after 1939, and Salazar's fascism in Portugal, referred to by some as 'clerical fascist' due to it's extremely close connections to the Roman Catholic church. Regardless of whether they were sincerely religious or not, they can use religion to cement their political power, and thus, also secure the survival of the capitalist class.

[balaclava]

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Islam commands that Muslims owe allegiance to Islam and not their country of birth. There is no shortage of flag waving Muslims ready to kill anyone that would defile a symbol of Islam.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
The list if too long.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The USA, the ‘west,’ everyone who is not Muslim and some Muslims who don’t want to fight.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
It is the objective of every Muslim to become a martyr. The leader of the army would be the Caliph (if they had a Caliph).
5. Rampant Sexism –
Again the list is too long.
6. Controlled Mass Media
Show me a Muslim country with a free press?
7. Obsession with National Security
They are obsessed with getting non Muslims out of Muslim countries.
8. Religion and Government are intertwined
Islam is not just a religion it is also a political and social ideology
9. Corporate Power is Protected –
Have to think about that one!
10. Labour Power is suppressed
Don’t understand that one but I suspect there are few unions in Muslims countries and I suspect there is no place for them in sharia law
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Remember the Muslims in Afghanistan that blew up those thousand year old statues.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Again – need I say more?
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Show me a Muslim country that is not corrupt?
14. Fraudulent Elections –
In Islam, elections are illegal.

[Crimson Commissar]

Of course. All religion is authoritarian and fascist. The only reason Islam stands out more is since Christianity has been somewhat suppressed by modern culture and values, Judaism isn't really significant enough at the moment, and all other religions don't seem to be too violent about it.

[Patchd]

What, why are you still bringing up those 14 points? Who says they're the characterisation of fascism?

[hatzel]

Hah, and that's not even the worst of it. Most of OP's comments about those 14 points aren't based on Islam at all, just Islamic extremists and Muslim countries...and, actually, quite a few of them are even...wait for it...lies! So I think we can ignore this whole 14 points thing, until maybe there's a situation where the Islamophobes' wet dreams are right, and the terrorists / certain nations / fallacies about terrorists and certain nations are a fair representation of Islam as a religion, and Muslims worldwide...

[Lt. Ferret]

i base my definition of fascism on italy's fascist government, which if they encompassed those points, it was almost by mere coincidence. you could put those 14 points on arbitrarily authoritarian governments and even some socialist governments.

[Patchd]

i base my definition of fascism on italy's fascist government
Why?

[#FF0000]

So you think all 1.6 billion muslims follow Saudi Arabia's line on Islam, then?

[timbaly]

Of course. All religion is authoritarian and fascist. The only reason Islam stands out more is since Christianity has been somewhat suppressed by modern culture and values, Judaism isn't really significant enough at the moment, and all other religions don't seem to be too violent about it.

It's a bit off topic but I suggest you look into the BJP in India. They have used religion to justify violence and stir up hatred against Muslims in countless incidents. Most specifically when dealing with Ram's alleged birth place. Also Judaism is pretty significant in Israel, though not really beyond that.

[timbaly]

Your middle sentence is absolutely spot on, the word Fascist has been devalued by it's wrong usage amongst the left.

Aside from that, I don't really think you can say Islam is Fascist, not is it an ideology. It is a part of religion, and should be opposed, on grounds of atheism, as much as any other religion, bearing in mind that we should also oppose those who are against Islam purely on xenophobic grounds.


I think you're spot on about the over usage of the word fascist.

I recently have come across a video on youtube that claims Islam is some sort of ideology and political movement more so than any other religions. It claims that although Islam has contradictions the quran tells its readers to follow the later written passages if they contradict earlier ones. I'm not sure how true this is. None of my muslim friends are devout and none of them could confirm or deny the allegations. Perhaps this is a good thread to show the video.

reX7vGb-ToA

Can anyone confirm or deny these allegations? Perhaps with passages from the quran? If the allegations are true I'm still not sure that makes Islam fascist, but I'm sure some will argue that.

[Luís Henrique]

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

So France under Bonaparte, or the US under Bush, would be fascist?


2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Like, for instance, France before the Great Revolution?


3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

Such as the US under Bush?


4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread

Not true, certainly, of Nazi Germany - where the top brass were repeatedly humiliated by the Nazis.


5. Rampant Sexism

All societies before 1960 were fascist?


6. Controlled Mass Media

But, on the other hand, fascism is only possible after the invention of Mass Media?


7. Obsession with National Security

US under Bush?


8. Religion and Government are intertwined

All societies before 1789?


9. Corporate Power is Protected

Any nation under capitalism?


10. Labour Power is suppressed

England during the Industrial Revolution?


11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Not true, for instance, of Italy under Mussolini (the futurists were even kind of official artists). Any dictatorship (and not just the fascist ones) will have disdain for certain intellectuals, but always have strong support from other intellectuals too).


12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Most societies before the 20th Century?


13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Every polity is fascist?


14. Fraudulent Elections

Gerry was a fascist?

***************

This list is impressionist at best.

It misses the main characteristic of fascism: the rebuilt of "law and order" through unlawful and disorderly action.

Luís Henrique

[#FF0000]

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Islam commands that Muslims owe allegiance to Islam and not their country of birth. There is no shortage of flag waving Muslims ready to kill anyone that would defile a symbol of Islam.

There's no shortage of muslims who think those guys are insane, too. In fact this group outnumbers the flag-waving fanatics by a good margin.


2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
The list if too long.

All muslims are responsible for what the ruling class does in the Middle East?


3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The USA, the ‘west,’ everyone who is not Muslim and some Muslims who don’t want to fight.


Wait so there are Muslims who aren't fanatics, then. Are they fascists as well?


4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
It is the objective of every Muslim to become a martyr. The leader of the army would be the Caliph (if they had a Caliph).

The bolded part is flat out wrong. You might want to try reading a book. Start with this one. (http://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Religions-Great-Wisdom-Traditions/dp/0062508113)


5. Rampant Sexism –
Again the list is too long.

Name a single place on the planet where sexism isn't rampant. Please.


6. Controlled Mass Media
Show me a Muslim country with a free press?

She me a "Muslim country" that represents all 1.6 billion Muslims on the planet.


7. Obsession with National Security
They are obsessed with getting non Muslims out of Muslim countries.

Citation needed

8. Religion and Government are intertwined
Islam is not just a religion it is also a political and social ideology


Yeah, no. The political "radical Islam" we know today has only existed for about fifty years a serious movement and it's a direct result of Western governments funding them and putting them in power.

Workers in the Middle East, by and large, hate both their governments and the idea of U.S. invasion. So, yeah.


10. Labour Power is suppressed
Don’t understand that one but I suspect there are few unions in Muslims countries and I suspect there is no place for them in sharia law


Heh. Those savages and their disgusting primitive union-busting ways.

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&/images3/reagan/ra1719037217.jpe

Oh. Wait.


11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Remember the Muslims in Afghanistan that blew up those thousand year old statues.


All Muslims supported this? There are no Muslim intellectuals? There are no Muslim artists or musicians?


12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Again – need I say more?

Yeah. You need to tell me what study you found that said every Muslim is obsessed with crime and punishment.


13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Show me a Muslim country that is not corrupt?

Show me a "Muslim country" that represents all 1.6 billion Muslims. Show me something that says every Muslim support the ideas of these "Muslim countries".

Then you can try showing me any country that isn't corrupt.


14. Fraudulent Elections –
In Islam, elections are illegal.

So the majority of Muslims don't believe in elections? Really?

[Thirsty Crow]

Of course. All religion is authoritarian and fascist. The only reason Islam stands out more is since Christianity has been somewhat suppressed by modern culture and values, Judaism isn't really significant enough at the moment, and all other religions don't seem to be too violent about it.

That's bullshit. All religion is fascist? This statement is wrong on at least two levels:

1) You don't know what Fascism is. It is quite extraordinary how many users of this forum babble about "Fascism" and toss the term around without any historical consideration whatsoever

2) Religion cannot be Fascist since it does not function as a political ideology

Other than that, Christianity hasn't been suppressed since that would imply an active political process. And, moreover, it has been historically validated that not all religion is authoritarian (witness the religious backbone of peasant revolts during the 16th ct. and onwards).

[Crimson Commissar]

That's bullshit. All religion is fascist? This statement is wrong on at least two levels:

1) You don't know what Fascism is. It is quite extraordinary how many users of this forum babble about "Fascism" and toss the term around without any historical consideration whatsoever

2) Religion cannot be Fascist since it does not function as a political ideology

Other than that, Christianity hasn't been suppressed since that would imply an active political process. And, moreover, it has been historically validated that not all religion is authoritarian (witness the religious backbone of peasant revolts during the 16th ct. and onwards).
Fascism views the state and it's leaders as being supreme, and a force which everyone should obey. Fascism often seeks to completely obliterate anyone who disagrees with it through harsh military force. Religion, especially abrahamic religion, views one or more deities as being the supreme force which every human being MUST obey. Religion also seeks to obliterate it's enemies either by commading it's followers to forcefully convert them or threatening them with eternal torture in hell. Sounds like fascism to me. :/

[#FF0000]

Fascism views the state and it's leaders as being supreme, and a force which everyone should obey. Fascism often seeks to completely obliterate anyone who disagrees with it through harsh military force.

More complicated than that


Religion, especially abrahamic religion, views one or more deities as being the supreme force which every human being MUST obey. Religion also seeks to obliterate it's enemies either by commading it's followers to forcefully convert them or threatening them with eternal torture in hell. Sounds like fascism to me. :/

Except people cherry pick like they do with every religion. People can be christians and be of any political inclination.

The world is very very very complicated, kid.

[Doesn't matter]

Of course. All religion is authoritarian and fascist. The only reason Islam stands out more is since Christianity has been somewhat suppressed by modern culture and values, Judaism isn't really significant enough at the moment, and all other religions don't seem to be too violent about it.

I have to ask, why do you think Christianity is a authoritarian and fascist religion?

Can you post verses from the Christian Bible that call for violence? Can anyone here do that?

[Crimson Commissar]

Except people cherry pick like they do with every religion. People can be christians and be of any political inclination.

The world is very very very complicated, kid.
Yeah, they can. Doesn't change the fact that the religion itself teaches those values that I mentioned. Plus, the vast majority of christians and muslims I've met believe that God is a supreme force to be obeyed. And ALL of the muslims I've met believe that it's PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE for him to send us to hell for disobeying him. Fucking hell, go look at some of the christian and muslim websites that are out there. Most of the people on there would say that disobeying god is outright EVIL. I've even heard some muslims say that atheism is some kind of mental disorder. If that isn't fucked up, then I don't know what is.


I have to ask, why do you think Christianity is a authoritarian and fascist religion?

Can you post verses from the Christian Bible that call for violence? Can anyone here do that?
The violence I'm not sure if Christianity officially endorses. But Christians throughout history have used violence to assert their control over society. As for the authoritarian part, I really shouldnt have to find verses for that. The Bible is all about being some fucking mindless slave to God. If I had specific verses I would post them, but I'm not going to go searching the internet to find them.

[Sam_b]

Not fascism though is it champ

[Crimson Commissar]

Not fascism though is it champ
Close enough to fascism. If not fascism, then it's definitely EXTREMELY authoritarian.

[Doesn't matter]

Islam is a religion that teaches that it's followers must fight until Islam is the only religion in existance, and the Quran teaches that using violence is acceptable to achieve this aim.

Now I came here for a debate, I will be civil and I hope others here will be too.

In the UK, the London Borough of London recently held a mayoral election and a Muslim who has links to, and supports an Islamist group that has extremist views was elected as mayor. The group I am talking about is the Islamic Forum of Europe.

A recent news report for a French TV news channel reported on Tower Hamlets, and what it has become. The documentary showed that homosexuals are attacked. In fact Tower Hamlets has become "Islamised", which I notice a lot of Leftists don't seem to realise exists, and that it is becoming a threat.

I wish I could post links that will back up my claims but I'm not allowed to post links on this forum as it says (the forum) that I'm not allowed to post links until I have made enough posts.

[Doesn't matter]

More complicated than that



Except people cherry pick like they do with every religion.

Like Liberals cherry-pick verses of the Quran to explain that Islam is somehow a religion of peace.

Well you are wrong if you think Islam is a religion of peace. Do you think that it is?

[#FF0000]

Islam is a religion that teaches that it's followers must fight until Islam is the only religion in existance, and the Quran teaches that using violence is acceptable to achieve this aim.

Now I came here for a debate, I will be civil and I hope others here will be too.

In the UK, the London Borough of London recently held a mayoral election and a Muslim who has links to, and supports an Islamist group that has extremist views was elected as mayor. The group I am talking about is the Islamic Forum of Europe.

A recent news report for a French TV news channel reported on Tower Hamlets, and what it has become. The documentary showed that homosexuals are attacked. In fact Tower Hamlets has become "Islamised", which I notice a lot of Leftists don't seem to realise exists, and that it is becoming a threat.

I wish I could post links that will back up my claims but I'm not allowed to post links on this forum as it says (the forum) that I'm not allowed to post links until I have made enough posts.

You are wrong.

Source: Huston Smith - The World's Religions

[Doesn't matter]

You are wrong.

Source: Huston Smith - The World's Religions

Care to explain?

[timbaly]

Can you post verses from the Christian Bible that call for violence? Can anyone here do that?


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2014:26&version=KJV
- not physical violence but mental

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205:17&version=KJV
-advocates for following the old testament which is very violent

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2021&version=KJV

-parable of many murders


41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

[Doesn't matter]

A simple question: Can anyone here post verses from Christianity that call for violence?

Don't think that is possible.

[Orange Juche]

It is a part of religion, and should be opposed, on grounds of atheism

Says who? Marx? This means we "should" take every word of Marxist ideology without question, adaptation, or second thought?

[timbaly]

Says who? Marx? This means we "should" take every word of Marxist ideology without question, adaptation, or second thought?

You're reading too much into that. I would say that Islam should be opposed because it does not make sense and it advocates for terribly anti-human things like contempt for others and rule by religious law. It has nothing to do with what Marx thinks. It advocates belief in a diety of which there is no proof of.

[Doesn't matter]

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

I want to point out that Islam is Fascist, Muhammed was the dictator, everything he said and done is defended by true Muslims, when I say "True Muslims" I mean those that avocate violence, as any peaceful Muslim is not following his religion the way that Muhammed would have approved.

[Orange Juche]

A simple question: Can anyone here post verses from Christianity that call for violence?

Don't think that is possible.

Yes, they can (from the Old Testament), to which I would say it is a historical document that realistically was used (even if there is truth in it) to manipulate people with fear, to which they would say I'm cherry picking what I want to believe, to which I would say I'm making an entirely reasonable assertion and that truth should be found in prayer not dogma, to which they would say (again) that I'm cherry picking or being stupid or unintelligent or something of the sort, etc etc.

There, I just avoided a pointless debate where nothing is accomplished. I hope. There do seem to be those people that just have to get that word in so they can be right. Whatever.

[timbaly]

A simple question: Can anyone here post verses from Christianity that call for violence?

Don't think that is possible.


Look above your last post, I just did.

[brigadista]

could I suggest the original poster reads The Clash of Fundamentalisms by Tariq Ali all may become clearer...

[#FF0000]

Care to explain?

Read a book.

[Orange Juche]

Read a book.

I recommend "Everyone Poops."

[#FF0000]

So, to the people who think Islam is some evil violent thing:

What should be done about Muslims?

[Crimson Commissar]

So, to the people who think Islam is some evil violent thing:

What should be done about Muslims?
Let them believe what they want. As long as the organised religion itself is destroyed then it is no threat to us. Then, education will deal with the rest.

[#FF0000]

Let them believe what they want. As long as the organised religion itself is destroyed then it is no threat to us. Then, education will deal with the rest.

How do you "destroy organized religion"?

[Crimson Commissar]

How do you "destroy organized religion"?
If the state officially supports anti-clericalism, and possibly anti-theism too, then organised religion will have no power.

[Tifosi]

A simple question: Can anyone here post verses from Christianity that call for violence?

Don't think that is possible.

Here (http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm)

[timbaly]

So, to the people who think Islam is some evil violent thing:

What should be done about Muslims?


If Islam is meant to be a truly violent political and cultural movement than I think most self proclaimed Muslims are not aware of this and do not follow the religion in this way (at least not in the USA). I think they should just be discouraged from practicing and the the absurdity and hypocrisy should just be pointed out to them. The younger they are the better time it is to point out the nonsense. The fact is that there are outrageous and violent and hateful passages in the quran and that should be enough to discount the entire document in an intellectual discussion.

[#FF0000]

If the state officially supports anti-clericalism, and possibly anti-theism too, then organised religion will have no power.

So what does that actually mean? What would the state do to Muslims?

[brigadista]

If Islam is meant to be a truly violent political and cultural movement than I think most self proclaimed Muslims are not aware of this and do not follow the religion in this way (at least not in the USA). I think they should just be discouraged from practicing and the the absurdity and hypocrisy should just be pointed out to them. The younger they are the better time it is to point out the nonsense. The fact is that there are outrageous and violent and hateful passages in the quran and that should be enough to discount the entire document in an intellectual discussion.

unlikely when your community is under attack as a result of stereotypical ideas about your traditions and beliefs in order to justify the imperial ambitions of the western powers

[Doesn't matter]

The Quran does have a lot of peace in it, but later in the Quran there is teachings of violence, the violent verses in the Quran were written after the peaceful verses, so therefore any peaceful verse in the Quran was probably crossed out by violent verses that you would find later in the book.

Muhammed preached and teached peace, but he began to become involved in violence and battles and his teachings became increasingly violent.

You are atheists, so wouldn't it make sense to you that violence changed Muhammed and made him a violent person? He did kill people you know.

Defenders of Islam often cite the following verse in the Quran "There is no compulsion in religion", but what they won't tell you is that that verse is crossed out by the following verse of the Quran:

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

And defenders of Islam often quote Islamic verses that were written while Muhammed lived in Mecca, however the truth is when Muhammed was living in Medina it was then that he teached violence and hatred.

[Doesn't matter]

Look above your last post, I just did.

I mean verses that call for violence and that are from Christianity.

[timbaly]

unlikely when your community is under attack as a result of stereotypical ideas about your traditions and beliefs in order to justify the imperial ambitions of the western powers


True. It sucks, way too many muslims I know have gotten closer to their religion since 2001 and I think it is related to the global war on terror. At the same time most of my friends who were raised Muslim do not practice or care about the religion and I think they're generally better educated than their immigrant parents and more critical too. As for muslims outside of the USA and Canada I'm not really sure but it doesn't look like their religion is being diluted from my perspective.

[#FF0000]

If Islam is meant to be a truly violent political and cultural movement than I think most self proclaimed Muslims are not aware of this and do not follow the religion in this way (at least not in the USA). I think they should just be discouraged from practicing and the the absurdity and hypocrisy should just be pointed out to them. The younger they are the better time it is to point out the nonsense. The fact is that there are outrageous and violent and hateful passages in the quran and that should be enough to discount the entire document in an intellectual discussion.

1) what about christians
2) How do you figure you know the Qu'ran better than a Muslim?

[timbaly]

The Quran does have a lot of peace in it, but later in the Quran there is teachings of violence, the violent verses in the Quran were written after the peaceful verses, so therefore any peaceful verse in the Quran was probably crossed out by violent verses that you would find later in the book.

Do you have a quote or verse from the quran that says earlier passages should be dismissed for new passages? I've been wondering about this very point for about a month or so.


I mean verses that call for violence and that are from Christianity.

Can you clarify? I'm not sure what you mean. All of those verses were from the New Testament. Doesn't that mean that they are from Christianity?

[brigadista]

True. It sucks, way too many muslims I know have gotten closer to their religion since 2001 and I think it is related to the global war on terror. At the same time most of my friends who were raised Muslim do not practice or care about the religion and I think they're generally better educated than their immigrant parents and more critical too. As for muslims outside of the USA and Canada I'm not really sure but it doesn't look like their religion is being diluted from my perspective.

traditions and religious belief are different- they often get confused- islam is as diverse as xtianity- it is in the interests of international capital to demonise populations where islam is a majority religion.

as i said above imo Tariq Ali provides an excellent analysis in his book from a marxist perspective and its amusing too

[Doesn't matter]

They are from Judaism. They are not from the Christian Bible.

All of those verses that I read on that link were from Holy Hebrew Jewish books. None were from Christianity.

[#FF0000]

I'm really curious as to what other people here think should happen to Muslims since they're all so violent or something.

[Doesn't matter]

They are from Judaism. They are not from the Christian Bible.

All of those verses that I read on that link were from Holy Hebrew Jewish books. None were from Christianity.

This post was a response to the person who posted a link to the website called "Evil Bible".

[#FF0000]

They are from Judaism. They are not from the Christian Bible.

All of those verses that I read on that link were from Holy Hebrew Jewish books. None were from Christianity.

Yeah, the Gospel of Matthew, the book that goes on and on about how Jesus is the messiah and fufills the prophesies, and the Gospel of Luke, that talks all about how Jesus roamed the desert doing baller things because he's the messiah, are Jewish texts.

Okay, guy.

EDIT: Oh wait I see what you were referring to.

Sorry, though. The Pentateuch is part of the Christian Bible, bro.

[Doesn't matter]

I have to go now. I will be back tomorrow.

[timbaly]

1) what about christians
2) How do you figure you know the Qu'ran better than a Muslim?


1) What about them? Are you asking if their religion should be discouraged? If so yes it should. It's also filled with hypocrisy as I pointed out with the three quotes from the New Testament. You can basically apply everything I said about Islam to Christianity. Christianity tells people to kill those who work on the sabbath, worship gods that are not the "true god", and homosexuals. It also has crazy laws regarding rape and countless other things like calling squids and abomination.

2) I don't think I know it better. I'm really wondering if there is a verse that says older passages take precedence over newer passages. If this is true that would mean violence takes precedence over peaceful passages. I'm still trying to figure out if this is true. At the same time I don't think most self proclaimed muslims in the USA know much about the quran. Most I know are muslim in name and for "cultural" reasons. I don't think many really care about Islam.

[#FF0000]

2) I don't think I know it better. I'm really wondering if there is a verse that says older passages take precedence over newer passages. If this is true that would mean violence takes precedence over peaceful passages. I'm still trying to figure out if this is true. At the same time I don't think most self proclaimed muslims in the USA know much about the quran. Most I know are muslim in name and for "cultural" reasons. I don't think many really care about Islam.

Okay. I mean you can think all you want but the Qu'ran isn't all that Islam is based on by a long shot. There's an insane number of texts written to interpret and expand on the Qu'ran.

So, seriously, I suggest you pick up that World Religions book I'm been mentioning.

[#FF0000]

Also, I'm curious. Don't you guys think that there's a significant bit of xenophobia, or racism, or chauvinism involved with this anti-Islam hysteria in Europe and America? I mean, Muslims are a very small minority either way, and considering an even smaller number of them follow this fundamentalist strain of it, why go so hard against Islam?

[timbaly]

They are from Judaism. They are not from the Christian Bible.

All of those verses that I read on that link were from Holy Hebrew Jewish books. None were from Christianity.


If you look at the second link I posted from the new testament it is advocating that people follow the old testament.

Read Matthew 5:17-20

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NASB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NASB)



17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NASB#cen-NASB-23252V))Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NASB#cen-NASB-23253W))until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least (X (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NASB#cen-NASB-23254X))in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20"For I say to you that unless your (Y (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NASB#cen-NASB-23255Y))righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Crimson Commissar]

So what does that actually mean? What would the state do to Muslims?
Nothing. All action would be targetted towards those who control Islam. Everything else, as I said, should be dealt with by education. Muslims should be taught why we believe their faith is wrong, and then they may make an educated decision. If they continue to practice Islam, fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to force it on others as they do now.

[brigadista]

Nothing. All action would be targetted towards those who control Islam. Everything else, as I said, should be dealt with by education. Muslims should be taught why we believe their faith is wrong, and then they may make an educated decision. If they continue to practice Islam, fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to force it on others as they do now.

are you an EDL member?
noone is forcing islam on me...

[timbaly]

Okay. I mean you can think all you want but the Qu'ran isn't all that Islam is based on by a long shot. There's an insane number of texts written to interpret and expand on the Qu'ran.

So, seriously, I suggest you pick up that World Religions book I'm been mentioning.


I don't think the other texts matter because the Quran is considered the most important. Therefore if the Quran is show to be absurd does that not mean that the whole religion is therefore absurd for following the Quran? The Quran calls for violence against non-believers.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

To me this alone discredits the entire religion. You can certainly say that there are useful things to be found in Islam. I am not saying everything is bad, but if one thing is fucked up then the whole thing is tainted.If people want to follow certain parts of Islam but not others I don't have an issue as long as those parts they do follow are not anti-human. However they should acknowledge that Islam is violent and advocates violence. If you don't agree with these parts of the quran you should not consider yourself a muslim because you are defying the quran.

[#FF0000]

I'm going to be frank here. Every single religious person on the planet cherry-picks what they like and what they don't like out of their holy books, from the most moderate or even progressive-minded individual to the bible-thumping fundamentalist. They have to, because every Holy Book contradicts itself time and time and time again.

So, in the end, what the books say on their own are entirely irrelevant. It's the interpretation that matters.

The vast majority of Muslims aren't any more or less violent than anyone else.

So who cares?

[#FF0000]

Also that particular line that "discredits the entire religion":


008.012 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you:
give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers:
smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."


This verse and the verses before and after were revealed about the Battle of Badr, which occurred in Arabia in the early seventh century.

So uh.

[ComradeMan]

Oh dear oh dear...

I think this really is a thread that stirs up trouble.

There are 1.6 billion or so Muslims of different denominations and varying beliefs. The OP attacks seem to based on stereotypical extremist Islamist groups- not Islam in all its forms per se. Now I am not going to say that Islam is not authoritarian or this or that any more or less than the other Abrahamic religions but to say "Islam is fascist" just seems like an emotional appeal to the worst stereotypes of Islam.

Islam and Islamic culture have also had a great contribution to the world and humanity in the form of mathematics, medicine and the preservation of classical thought that had been destroyed in the West. I'm not saying Islam does not have issues- but then nothing does not have issues. You could cherry-pick Marx, Engels and Proudhon and come up with enough racisim, bigotry and so on to put it all together and denounce them as "fascists and racists"- couldn't you?

http://www.ifidonline.com/m2/index.php/home/71-the-true-peaceful-face-of-islam

BTW the Qu'ran is not the only book, albeit the primary book- the Hadith or narrations of the Prophet are also of great importance. Islamic scholars would also be the first ones to point out that literal interpretations are not the only interpretations of the Qu'ran: zahir (outward)- tafsir, mystic commentaries with batin- ta'wil. Only the Salafis (Sunni movement) and the Daud al-Zahiri follow the belief that the Qu'ran should be approached with a literal interpretation.

[timbaly]

Also that particular line that "discredits the entire religion":


This verse and the verses before and after were revealed about the Battle of Badr, which occurred in Arabia in the early seventh century. So uh.
So uh.


In Quran 8:7 it reads "when Allah promised you one of the two groups - that it would be yours - and you wished that the unarmed one would be yours. But Allah intended to establish the truth by His words and to eliminate the disbelievers"

8:13 reads "That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger - indeed, Allah is severe in penalty."

8:14 ""That, so taste it." And indeed for the disbelievers is the punishment of the Fire."

Does this not show that Allah is advocating violence? It's violence against an army but its on the basis of their being non-believers. It does not say anything about fighting for self defense.


I'm going to be frank here. Every single religious person on the planet cherry-picks what they like and what they don't like out of their holy books, from the most moderate or even progressive-minded individual to the bible-thumping fundamentalist. They have to, because every Holy Book contradicts itself time and time and time again.


That discredits their whole religion. If you're truly a believer you cant pick and choose, if you do than you're a believer in something that isn't the religion you claim to follow. Most people do this as you pointed out. It just proves how absurd religious beliefs are.

[#FF0000]

That discredits their whole religion. If you're truly a believer you cant pick and choose, if you do than you're a believer in something that isn't the religion you claim to follow. Most people do this as you pointed out. It just proves how absurd religious beliefs are.

I'm just telling you how the real world works.


Does this not show that Allah is advocating violence? It's violence against an army but its on the basis of their being non-believers. It does not say anything about fighting for self defense.

Except I am pretty sure every cleric that isn't a fundamentalist will tell you that the only violence accepted in Islam is violence in self defense.

[timbaly]

Oh dear oh dear...


BTW the Qu'ran is not the only book, albeit the primary book- the Hadith or narrations of the Prophet are also of great importance. Islamic scholars would also be the first ones to point out that literal interpretations are not the only interpretations of the Qu'ran: zahir (outward)- tafsir, mystic commentaries with batin- ta'wil. Only the Salafis (Sunni movement) and the Daud al-Zahiri follow the belief that the Qu'ran should be approached with a literal interpretation.


I think the main issue is that the quran is widely accepted as the word of god where as the other books are not. Therefore is the quran is show to be hateful and violent it discredits the entire religion because the quran is the base.

[#FF0000]

Does this not show that Allah is advocating violence? It's violence against an army but its on the basis of their being non-believers. It does not say anything about fighting for self defense.

Actually (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr)

[#FF0000]

I think the main issue is that the quran is widely accepted as the word of god where as the other books are not. Therefore is the quran is show to be hateful and violent it discredits the entire religion because the quran is the base.

Who cares if the Qu'ran is violent if Muslims aren't?

[ComradeMan]

I think the main issue is that the quran is widely accepted as the word of god where as the other books are not. Therefore is the quran is show to be hateful and violent it discredits the entire religion because the quran is the base.

Some of Marx' writings are pretty hateful by modern standards- does that throw the baby out with the bathwater?

[#FF0000]

Some of Marx' writings are pretty hateful by modern standards- does that throw the baby out with the bathwater?

I think Bakunin and Proudhon are even better examples. The latter was a vile sexist and the former was an outspoken antisemite.

[L.A.P.]

So you think all 1.6 billion muslims follow Saudi Arabia's line on Islam, then?

No everyone knows that most Muslims don't follow their religion to an extreme but it's undeniable that the religion in itself is violent, oppressive, and overall fucking stupid.

[poppynogood]

It claims that although Islam has contradictions the quran tells its readers to follow the later written passages if they contradict earlier ones. I'm not sure how true this is. None of my muslim friends are devout and none of them could confirm or deny the allegations. Perhaps this is a good thread to show the video.

Can anyone confirm or deny these allegations? Perhaps with passages from the quran?

Most Muslims fully understand that the few Quranic verses that seemingly promote equality, peace and justice are more often than not overridden/ nullified by later verses that validate such things as terrorism and legalistic restrictions on routine human and women’s rights.

This is known as abrogation

This doctrine is based on two verses that Allah allegedly instructed Mohammed to put into the Quran.

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" Surah 2: 106

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Surah 16:101

[#FF0000]

No everyone knows that most Muslims don't follow their religion to an extreme but it's undeniable that the religion in itself is violent, oppressive, and overall fucking stupid.

Yeah I think religion is dumb but when people talk about Islam in the west, it really isn't about Islam, you know what I mean?

[#FF0000]

Most Muslims fully understand that the few Quranic verses that seemingly promote equality, peace and justice are more often than not overridden/ nullified by later verses that validate such things as terrorism and legalistic restrictions on routine human and women’s rights.

This is known as abrogation

This doctrine is based on two verses that Allah allegedly instructed Mohammed to put into the Quran.

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" Surah 2: 106

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Surah 16:101

Except I think you have that backwards. Violent verses have been rescinded as well.

EDIT: Also, looking into it, abrogation is hella controversial and "modern scholars" apparently hate it?

[timbaly]

I'm just telling you how the real world works.

I'm well aware. I just think it's useful to point out the craziness in people's belief. Many people will respond to logic and reason and the more people discouraged from practicing lunatic religions the better off we are. The more critical the population is the better. I think I've done a good job with this and with my friends and peers. It's at least good to get them doubting.


Except I am pretty sure every cleric that isn't a fundamentalist will tell you that the only violence accepted in Islam is violence in self defense.

Probably, but there are clear justifications for and advocating of the death penalty. That's not self defense.

Quran 5:32 "The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter."

[#FF0000]

I'm well aware. I just think it's useful to point out the craziness in people's belief. Many people will respond to logic and reason and the more people discouraged from practicing lunatic religions the better off we are. The more critical the population is the better. I think I've done a good job with this and with my friends and peers. It's at least good to get them doubting.

How does a very small minority that is the target of relentless scapegoating, stereotyping, and slander and that doesn't have any major influence practicing a religion hurt anybody?

I mean, that's the thing. I don't care about people's dumb religion if they keep it to themselves, and most people do. And on top of that, why the hell would I go after people who are already the subject of bigotry and discrimination? THAT is the problem. THAT is why I really don't care in the least what the Qu'ran says.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The premise of the thread title - "Islam is a fascist ideology" - is ludicrous. Fascism is a distinct political theory, not some political cuss word you can use to describe anything you don't like.

Having got that out of the way, the fact remains that Islam is an Abrahamic religion, making it a breeding ground for superstition and reaction. It is true that most Muslims are not violent, but it is also true that most Christians are not violent. In both cases, it is from the ranks of the moderates that radicals and fundamentalists spring - because if taking the answers to "big questions" on faith is seen as reasonable and acceptable, then it follows that for such important topics it may be appropriate in some circumstances to use violence in aid of one's faith, and nobody can reason you out of it because it's faith, something not amenable to reason. Hence why Christian fanatics bomb family planning clinics and why Islamic militants use suicide bombing (I am aware that the nominally secular Tamil nationalists also use this tactic, but they have a different superstition of national mysticism to help them along), despite the fact that family planning clinics objectively do good and despite the fact that one can't continue to fight for one's cause when dead.

Religion, like nationalism, is an arbitrary divider of the human species. Religious sentiment is all too easily hijacked for ruling class purposes, and as revolutionaries we should seek to deny them that weapon.

[timbaly]

Actually (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr)


What does this have to do with what the Quran says? I don't see self defense being mentioned as the reason to kill.

8:12 reads: ""when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.""

8:13 reads: "That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger - indeed, Allah is severe in penalty."

It says whoever opposes Allah and Muhammed will have terror cast upon them and should be striked in the neck and finger tips. It does not say do this because they have attacked you.

[timbaly]

Who cares if the Qu'ran is violent if Muslims aren't?

It matters because it's illogical. I don't want people to be irrational and illogical so I therefore care about people following religions that are inherently contradictory and have no evidence for their claims about god and divinity.

[#FF0000]

What does this have to do with what the Quran says? I don't see self defense being mentioned as the reason to kill.

I thought it was established that the Qu'ran isn't the be-all end-all of Islamic belief?

[#FF0000]

It matters because it's illogical. I don't want people to be irrational and illogical so I therefore care about people following religions that are inherently contradictory and have no evidence for their claims about god and divinity.

People don't have to be logical. They can believe whatever stupid thing they want and they'll still function and humanity can still do great things. What does it matter that some guy likes to believe in fairy tales? Who cares? I think the stereotyping and othering of Muslims as "violent foreign fanatics" is a lot more dangerous than someone believing something dumb and keeping it to themselves.

[ComradeMan]

I have long experience with Muslim peoples and lived in Islamic country.

This is more representative of the "Muslim" culture I encountered:-

Xf8jsnwrk-0

Peace be with you............



PS BEST MOD_ I didn't mention Bakunin and Proudhon because I didn't want the Anarchists rising up on me!
:)

[timbaly]

Some of Marx' writings are pretty hateful by modern standards- does that throw the baby out with the bathwater?


Because Marx does not claim to be divine or inspired by divinity. Marxism is not a religion, you don't have to agree with everything Marx has said. To be a Jew or Christian you must follow the laws of the Old Testament because they hold the laws of god. If you don't follow the laws of god you are defying the religion and you are therefore not a follower. I'm not saying that there are parts of quran or the old testament that aren't reasonable or useful. I am saying that if one part of those books is crazy than the whole religion is discredited because you cannot pick and choose which of gods rules you wish to follow if you are truly a believer.

[timbaly]

I thought it was established that the Qu'ran isn't the be-all end-all of Islamic belief?

How has that been established? It's widely accepted as the word of god and therefore is the most important text of Islam.

[poppynogood]

In the UK, the London Borough of London recently held a mayoral election and a Muslim who has links to, and supports an Islamist group that has extremist views was elected as mayor.

This mayor is Lutfur Rahman who proposal to change the name of Aldgate East tube station to Bangla Town, which I find very disgusting to say the least because the station was non other than one of the locations of the london bombings.

[timbaly]

How does a very small minority that is the target of relentless scapegoating, stereotyping, and slander and that doesn't have any major influence practicing a religion hurt anybody?

I mean, that's the thing. I don't care about people's dumb religion if they keep it to themselves, and most people do. And on top of that, why the hell would I go after people who are already the subject of bigotry and discrimination? THAT is the problem. THAT is why I really don't care in the least what the Qu'ran says.

It hurts people because it is encouraging them to have faith above logic and reason. It asks people to believe in things in which there is no proof or supporting evidence for. I wouldn't say you should go after muslims for their beliefs, I just think it's good to discourage faith because it interferes with reason.

[#FF0000]

How has that been established? It's widely accepted as the word of god and therefore is the most important text of Islam.

Will you please read a book about Islam? Just one?

[#FF0000]

It hurts people because it is encouraging them to have faith above logic and reason. It asks people to believe in things in which there is no proof or supporting evidence for. I wouldn't say you should go after muslims for their beliefs, I just think it's good to discourage faith because it interferes with reason.

People believe contradictory things all the time. Actual discrimination is worse than someone believing a dumb thing.

[timbaly]

Most Muslims fully understand that the few Quranic verses that seemingly promote equality, peace and justice are more often than not overridden/ nullified by later verses that validate such things as terrorism and legalistic restrictions on routine human and women’s rights.

This is known as abrogation

This doctrine is based on two verses that Allah allegedly instructed Mohammed to put into the Quran.

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" Surah 2: 106

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Surah 16:101


I don't understand how those two verses equate to "if there is conflicting information later passages supersede earlier passages"

The first one seems to be saying never abrogate while also saying things can be substituted. I'm not clear on the second one.

[timbaly]

People believe contradictory things all the time. Actual discrimination is worse than someone believing a dumb thing.

True. This doesn't mean believing in dumb things isn't a bad thing.

[brigadista]

what ever happened to context?

[brigadista]

where are all these islam/violence/fascism type threads coming from? just seen another...

[Vampire Lobster]

I don't really have time for a full answer and I'm sure other folks here are more than eager to cover any absurd shit you're still about to spout, but an interesting little detail about the Taliban blowing up the Buddha statues: fucking Saudi government condemned that. I think it's absolutely lovely how you are implying that an act that was condemned even by the most hardcore elements of Islamic scholars actually tells something about Muslims everywhere. Great argumentation, boy.

[Dimentio]

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Islam commands that Muslims owe allegiance to Islam and not their country of birth. There is no shortage of flag waving Muslims ready to kill anyone that would defile a symbol of Islam.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
The list if too long.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The USA, the ‘west,’ everyone who is not Muslim and some Muslims who don’t want to fight.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
It is the objective of every Muslim to become a martyr. The leader of the army would be the Caliph (if they had a Caliph).
5. Rampant Sexism –
Again the list is too long.
6. Controlled Mass Media
Show me a Muslim country with a free press?
7. Obsession with National Security
They are obsessed with getting non Muslims out of Muslim countries.
8. Religion and Government are intertwined
Islam is not just a religion it is also a political and social ideology
9. Corporate Power is Protected –
Have to think about that one!
10. Labour Power is suppressed
Don’t understand that one but I suspect there are few unions in Muslims countries and I suspect there is no place for them in sharia law
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Remember the Muslims in Afghanistan that blew up those thousand year old statues.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Again – need I say more?
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Show me a Muslim country that is not corrupt?
14. Fraudulent Elections –
In Islam, elections are illegal.

Congratulations. You have now officially managed to twist around a bad definition, making it even worse.

[timbaly]

Will you please read a book about Islam? Just one?

I've read large parts of the Quran, maybe about 33% - 40% of it. That's going to the source rather than someone's interpretation of it. You think I should read the Huston Smith book? Why do you think that book is particularly good?

[#FF0000]

I've read large parts of the Quran, maybe about 33% - 40% of it. That's going to the source rather than someone's interpretation of it. You think I should read the Huston Smith book? Why do you think that book is particularly good?

Huston Smith is a p. good authority on these things, I think, and it gives a fair and objective look at Islam and what Muslims believe and all that.

[poppynogood]

Except I think you have that backwards. Violent verses have been rescinded as well.

EDIT: Also, looking into it, abrogation is hella controversial and "modern scholars" apparently hate it?

No I have not got it backwards, "modern scholars" apparently hate it because it blows all the talk of islam being peace rightful out of the water

[ComradeMan]

Let me try and answer some of these points from my experience of living within Islam.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Islam commands that Muslims owe allegiance to Islam and not their country of birth. There is no shortage of flag waving Muslims ready to kill anyone that would defile a symbol of Islam.


All Muslims are Muslims first, there is, or should be, no national divide amongst Muslims. Desecrating and Islamic symbol is blasphemy- it's religious not nationalistic. In the USA it is illegal to burn or desecrate the flag is it not? Don't children have to pledge allegiance to the flag at school with their hands on their hearts? If you go to most places and desecrate their symbols or flags etc you might get a hostile response. Let's walk around Havana with an anti-Fidel T-shirt on..... Get my point?



2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
The list if too long.

Disagree. Human rights issues are very varied in Islamic nations. There is no straight line Islamic policy on human rights. Ironically I think it's only the Palestinian West Bank that an Islamic authority allows, and has allowed since 1951, homosexuality. There are undoubtedly issues within Islam around female emancipation and homosexuality but there have been in a lot of other countries too. I don't think you can just write them all off as medieval though. No one attacks nations such as Singapore for their stance where Buddhism is the predominant belief system.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The USA, the ‘west,’ everyone who is not Muslim and some Muslims who don’t want to fight.

I don't think Saudi Arabia or the Gulf States identify the West/USA as enemies and scapegoats. I don't think you can make such a generalisation. At the same time, the USA identifies anyone against the USA as a communist/terrorist/ or these days Islamist. The Nazis identified the non-Aryans, the Jews and so on as scapegoats. Hell in America the Irish and the Italians were once perceived as a threat to American values. This is not Islam this is human nature at its worst.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
It is the objective of every Muslim to become a martyr. The leader of the army would be the Caliph (if they had a Caliph).


Well this is just rubbish.


5. Rampant Sexism –

Sexism in Islam is ambiguous, but then most of the world has been sexist since time immemorial with a few exceptions, Female emancipation is also an issue in India with a Hindu majority. But are only Muslims sexists? There is of course an issue here.


6. Controlled Mass Media
Show me a Muslim country with a free press?


Do you think our presses are that free?

7. Obsession with National Security
They are obsessed with getting non Muslims out of Muslim countries.

Hmmm..... Merkel? EU? Homeland Security?


Not true at all for the most part.


8. Religion and Government are intertwined
Islam is not just a religion it is also a political and social ideology

So what's the difference? Capitalism, communism, this-ism and that-ism are intertwined with the state.


9. Corporate Power is Protected –
Have to think about that one!

What's the problem? Is that in Islam itself?


10. Labour Power is suppressed
Don’t understand that one but I suspect there are few unions in Muslims countries and I suspect there is no place for them in sharia law


Under Islamic laws, i.e. "pure" Islam, there is no need for unions etc because they work on the basis of that which follows Islamic teaching is just. That it the reason why.


11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Remember the Muslims in Afghanistan that blew up those thousand year old statues.

The "Muslims in Afghanistan"- no the Taliban. The rest is seriously flawed. There would be nothing left in Egypt if this were a tenet of Islam nor would the Islamic world have preserved the knowledge of the Ancient (non-Islamic) World.


12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Again – need I say more?
The United States has the highest document ed incarceration rate and total prison population in the world.



13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Show me a Muslim country that is not corrupt?


Yeah because they invade other countries against UN resolutions based on strange claims of weapons that do not exist. Their secret services run drugs and cartels.... Please.

14. Fraudulent Elections –
In Islam, elections are illegal.

Why do the words Bush and Florida come to mind? :) Hmm... dunno.


Look I am not saying that the Islamic world is utopia, it is not- but at the same time "let he who is without guilt cast the first stone". If people are going to have a critical debate on the good and bad of Islam they had better come up with more than this generalising bullshit.

[poppynogood]

I thought it was established that the Qu'ran isn't the be-all end-all of Islamic belief?

There are 1.6 billion moslem who will tell you, you are wrong

[poppynogood]

14. Fraudulent Elections –
In Islam, elections are illegal.

Seems fascist to me

[timbaly]

Seems fascist to me

Fraudulent elections do not equal fascism. You can have fraudulent elections under any type of regime.

[ComradeMan]

Seems fascist to me

Errhum... will if elections are illegal in Islam, how come there are Islamic states that have elections? If they are de facto outlawed then they cannot be fraudulent because they do not exist.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

There are 1.6 billion moslem who will tell you, you are wrong

The majority of Muslims may regard the Koran as important, but it is nowhere near as simple as you seem to be implying.

I suspect the accusations of fascism against Islam are motivated more by racism or trollery, than any coherent or reasoned opposition to religion and/or authoritarian politics.

[Patchd]

There's a difference between a religion being shit, and one which can actually institutionalise oppression. Islam is not in the position to do so in the 'West'. In places like Iran, and Palestine, Islam pose a much larger problem as it is institutionalised like Protestantism is in Britain, hence why in Iran and amongst Iranian communist exiles, you find a strong anti-Islamic sentiment that many seem to share (obviously this isn't the case for all). Come over to Britain and we have socialists purporting Islam to be pro-woman, neutral on LGBT etc. which is obviously a lot of shit.

Why aren't we railing on as much about the effects of institutionalised Protestantism in Britain, after all it punished LGBT people, stood in the way of political participation and representation for centuries and placed women under men in the socio-economic and political pecking order. This was done for countless of years, and when fought against, faced much opposition from the Church of England. Indeed even today, sexist, homophobic groups, as well as racist networks like the English Defence League, still share a high presence of politicos who are more than willing to use their (Protestant) religion as another tool. Religion is a symptom, it isn't the root problem.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Religion is a symptom, it isn't the root problem.

Humans have a natural tendency towards supersition that requires education to overcome. Religion is the most prominent and damaging manifestation of this tendency, and has been around for longer than capitalism, so I would say it's a root problem rather than merely a proximate symptom or ultimate cause.

[ComradeMan]

There's a difference between a religion being shit, and one which can actually institutionalise oppression. Islam is not in the position to do so in the 'West'. In places like Iran, and Palestine, Islam pose a much larger problem as it is institutionalised like Protestantism is in Britain, hence why in Iran and amongst Iranian communist exiles, you find a strong anti-Islamic sentiment that many seem to share (obviously this isn't the case for all). Come over to Britain and we have socialists purporting Islam to be pro-woman, neutral on LGBT etc. which is obviously a lot of shit.

Why aren't we railing on as much about the effects of institutionalised Protestantism in Britain, after all it punished LGBT people, stood in the way of political participation and representation for centuries and placed women under men in the socio-economic and political pecking order. This was done for countless of years, and when fought against, faced much opposition from the Church of England. Indeed even today, sexist, homophobic groups, as well as racist networks like the English Defence League, still share a high presence of politicos who are more than willing to use their (Protestant) religion as another tool. Religion is a symptom, it isn't the root problem.


There is room for debate within the Left about Islam, but Islam like any other subject is vast and complex and there are many seeming contradictions within Islam- for example homophobia. Homsexuality is illegal in Morocco yet Casablanca is famous as a destination for transexual people. :confused:

The problem is that many of the people in the West on either side who go on and on about Islam don't have a clue one way or the other. They probably haven't lived in an Islamic state, they probably have little contact with Muslim people and culture, they have probably never read Islamic literature nor do they speak Arabic, or to a lesser extent the languages of the "islamosphere"- if such a thing can even be said to exist.


PS. I thought England was Anglican, Anglo-Catholic as a state religion and technically protestant so the comment by Patchd about the Church of England seems confusing.

[Patchd]

There is room for debate within the Left about Islam, but Islam like any other subject is vast and complex and there are many seeming contradictions within Islam- for example homophobia. Homsexuality is illegal in Morocco yet Casablanca is famous as a destination for transexual people. :confused:
That's because trans people are not necessarily homosexual. There's a difference, like in Iran, if you're gay, you can either opt to undergo a sex change and become a trans woman, or you get executed. It's done with the (mis)belief that gay men want to be women which is why they have sex with other men. Lesbians are treated even more differently in these cultures as they are seen to be even more deviant by virtue of being a woman.


PS. I thought England was Anglican, Anglo-Catholic as a state religion and technically protestant so the comment by Patchd about the Church of England seems confusing.
The Church of England is the dominating denomination in Britain, with the Monarch, in this case the Queen, as the head of the Church and State. It's protestant.

[ComradeMan]

[QUOTE=Patchd;1908651]That's because trans people are not necessarily homosexual. There's a difference, like in Iran, if you're gay, you can either opt to undergo a sex change and become a trans woman, or you get executed. It's done with the (mis)belief that gay men want to be women which is why they have sex with other men. Lesbians are treated even more differently in these cultures as they are seen to be even more deviant by virtue of being a woman. [QUOTE]

It's not great at all regarding LGBT issues but it's not as bad as a lot of people make it out either and it varies from place to place. I think the states basically don't look and don't see.

Regardless of that, this blanket attack on Islam is just stupid.

[brigadista]

yes a religion that came from the balls of henry viii:)

[poppynogood]

I don't understand how those two verses equate to "if there is conflicting information later passages supersede earlier passages"

The first one seems to be saying never abrogate while also saying things can be substituted. I'm not clear on the second one.

Yet untold thousands of islamic scholars and clerics who have studied the qu'ran do understand, so who are we to say they are wrong

[timbaly]

Yet untold thousands of islamic scholars and clerics who have studied the qu'ran do understand, so who are we to say they are wrong


I'm not saying they're wrong. I just don't understand the passages. Can you break them down for me with some detail. I'm not clear on how they've drawn these conclusions.

[poppynogood]

Errhum... will if elections are illegal in Islam, how come there are Islamic states that have elections? If they are de facto outlawed then they cannot be fraudulent because they do not exist.

They have elections not because of islam but despite islam


Fraudulent elections do not equal fascism. You can have fraudulent elections under any type of regime.

Both you and ComradeMan have not addressed my quote "In Islam, elections are illegal.
Seems fascist to me

I am not talking about if they are fraudulent or not, but the fact they are illegal

I have been resident in a islamic nation, and still am, for the last 18 years. I have seen how, where I live go from a dictatorship to a democracy, and now I witness how islamists are through democracy advancing sharia law.

During the last 18 years thousands of xchristians have been massacred, and close on 1000 churches. Just recently sharia law has be implemented a caning in public has been introduced

[timbaly]

They have elections not because of islam but despite islam



Both you and ComradeMan have not addressed my quote "In Islam, elections are illegal.
Seems fascist to me

I am not talking about if they are fraudulent or not, but the fact they are illegal

I have been resident in a islamic nation, and still am, for the last 18 years. I have seen how, where I live go from a dictatorship to a democracy, and now I witness how islamists are through democracy advancing sharia law.

During the last 18 years thousands of xchristians have been massacred, and close on 1000 churches. Just recently sharia law has be implemented a caning in public has been introduced

If there are no elections in a certain place that means the place is undemocratic. This does not mean the place is fascist. There have been many societies that did not have elections and only a few of those were fascist.

I'm not sure what you mean by elections being illegal in Islam. There are elections in many states where Islam is the dominant religion. In Turkey there are elections and have been for a long time.

Can you please explain the abrogation passages to me?

[#FF0000]

I asked my Egyptian friend who is a devout muslim a question today.

I asked him "Do you give a fuck about Sharia?"

He laughed and said "No. What the fuck is this, Saudi Arabia?"

Then he went off for his evening prayer.

What say you poppynogood

[poppynogood]

I asked my Egyptian friend who is a devout muslim a question today.

I asked him "Do you give a fuck about Sharia?"

He laughed and said "No. What the fuck is this, Saudi Arabia?"

Then he went off for his evening prayer.

What say you poppynogood

Classic Islamic law (sharia) details many aspects of the act of prayer, including who can pray, when to pray, how to pray, and where to pray

Muslims are enjoined to pray five times each day, with certain exceptions. These obligatory prayers, salat, are performed during prescribed periods of the day, and most can be performed either in groups or by oneself. Muslims must turn to face the Kaaba in Mecca when they pray, and they must be purified in order for their prayers to be accepted. Personal, informal prayer and invocation is practiced as well.

[#FF0000]

There are two types of Sharia, bro. There's the ritual stuff that relates to prayer, and there's the social and political stuff that most muslims feel are outdated and irrelevant today.

My friend I mentioned earlier p. much said just that. We live in a different world now than we did thousands of years ago and it's a whole new moral landscape.

Also only like four countries use Sharia as an official system of law and governance anyway.

[poppynogood]

Can you please explain the abrogation passages to me?

Yo that is like answering why does the sun set in a pool of mud:crying:

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

I struggled with the question of how an eternal revelation of Allah could have such time-bound revelation in it. It seemed at odds with the nature of Allah – the all-knowing, all-wise, creator and sustainer of the universe; the eternal, self-existent one. As a Muslim this was one of the bigger challenges I faced with regard to the Quran. Although the Quran is said to be an eternal and universal scripture, I found it to be time-bound.

Not all Muslim scholars agree on what abrogation covers. Briefly here was my discovery.

Muslim scholars of old hold to the concept that some ayahs in the Quran abrogate other ayahs in the Quran, but do not all hold to the same set of abrogated and abrogating ayahs.

Other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the Quran may abrogate the Quran as well as the Sunnah (deed or example of Mohammad) and vice versa.

Some Muslim scholars hold that the Quran abrogates all the previous scriptures, specifically the scriptures sent to Musa and Isa, but not itself
.
Some Muslim scholars, especially of recent times do not believe in the concept of abrogation at all.

Note that the ayah 2:106 above is clearly making the claim that only when a better ayah or similar ayah is available, does Allah change it and cause the older ones to be forgotten. And to drive the point home, the ayah continues on that Allah has power over all things. It is puzzling that Allah being all-wise needed to reveal better or similar ayahs to replace older ones.

Perhaps this was understandable for a Muslim if the Quran is talking about books given to Musa, then Isa, and finally Prophet Mohammad.

But what about ayahs within the life-span of Prophet Mohammad in the Quran – Allah was claiming to change earlier ayahs revealed in the Quran. This seemed completely out of context and reason for the Quran that claims to be for all time and all peoples.

(Was Mohammed making up verses as he went along and gained more power)

An example that is often used to show the topic of abrogation as relevant and true in the Quran is the topic of wine drinking. In early Islam, wine drinking and gambling were allowed -

Surah 2:219:

They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-

From this ayah it was taught that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects. To identify that the practice of drinking wine was not uncommon among Muslims, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer drunk,

Surah 4:43:

O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind drunk, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

[#FF0000]

Do you people think that muslims are lying or something when they say they don't want to blow anything up or beat women or what?

[KC]

What is this I dont even

[Os Cangaceiros]

I read an interesting article recently about Aceh, a very devout Muslim region in Indonesia (the largest Muslim country on Earth). Some surfers went there on a trip, and managed to find some bootlegged alcohol (alcohol is banned there). They reported that they drank around the other Muslims there, but no one cared, as they weren't Muslim themselves. It made me wonder if Muslims were as intolerant of other cultures as I had been led to believe. Granted, there are certainly hardcore Salafist Muslims out there, but they make up something like 1% of the Muslim world (although that's still considerable, considering the fact that there's over a billion Muslims).

I don't really know enough about the subject to make definitive statements, though.

[lines]

Usually anti-islamic rhetoric is accompanied by inciting people to war against the middle east. But going to war in the middle east doesn't even achieve any anti-islamic goal.

People have a rational argument against mass immigration if their reason for not liking mass immigration is because it lowers workers wages by creating more competition for jobs.

However using anti-islamic arguments in order to advocate against mass immigration is just a nonsense sort of position to take.

All religions have their good points as well as having their idiosyncrasies. Islam isn't any worse than judaism and christianity.

[poppynogood]

There are two types of Sharia, bro. There's the ritual stuff that relates to prayer, and there's the social and political stuff that most muslims feel are outdated and irrelevant today.

There is only one Sharia

Sharia is "the path that must be followed by all Muslims".
It brings together elements from the Koran and the Hadith (a collection of the deeds and words of Mohammed), plus judges' rulings from Islam's first centuries. It was fixed by about the 10th century, and contains detailed instructions for practically every aspect of life.


My friend I mentioned earlier p. much said just that. We live in a different world now than we did thousands of years ago and it's a whole new moral landscape.

Your friend is either cherry picking of or using taquiya

Traditional Muslims who understand the Quran and the hadith believe that sharia (Islamic law) expresses the highest and best goals for all societies.

It is the will of Allah and cannot be changed, interpreted or commented. Interpretation of the Koran according to sharia is seen as apostacy - a major crime which is punished by death. Its laws come directly from the founder of Islam - Muhammad - in his Quran and in his example in the hadith.

Sharia aspires to influence and - as it is dogmatic - to control every single aspect of life. Sharia is therefore a totalitarian legal and religious system.


Also only like four countries use Sharia as an official system of law and governance anyway.

But muslim countries including Pakistan, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Nigeria, Sudan, Morocco and Malaysia, Maldives, Algeria all the 57 nation of the Organization of the Islamic Conference have legal systems strongly influenced by Sharia

The Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI) is a declaration of the member states of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference adopted in Cairo in 1990, which provides an overview on the Islamic perspective on human rights, and affirms Islamic Shari'ah as its sole source. CDHRI declares its purpose to be "general guidance for Member States [of the OIC] in the Field of human rights". This declaration is usually seen as an Islamic response to the post-World War II United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) of 1948.

Predominantly Muslim countries, such as Sudan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, frequently criticized the Universal Declaration of Human Rights for its perceived failure to take into account the cultural and religious context of non-Western countries[citation needed]. In 1981, the post-revolutionary Iranian representative to the United Nations Said Rajaie-Khorassani articulated the position of his country regarding the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, by saying that the UDHR was "a secular understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition", which could not be implemented by Muslims without trespassing the Islamic law.

The Declaration starts by forbidding "any discrimination on the basis of race, colour, language, belief, sex, religion, political affiliation, social status or other considerations"

Forbidding sex, religion, yet Article 10 of the Declaration states: "Islam is the religion of unspoiled nature. It is prohibited to exercise any form of compulsion on man or to exploit his poverty or ignorance in order to convert him to another religion or to atheism."

Notice it does not say anything about any other religion'

Muslims are commanded to fight unbelievers until they are either dead, converted to Islam, or in a permanent state of subjugation under Muslim domination. Allowing people of other faiths to live and worship independently of Islamic rule is not an option.

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."

Qur'an (9:11) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion"

In 2001 the Indonesian army evacuated hundreds of Christian refugees from the remote Kesui and Teor islands in Maluku (province) after the refugees stated that they had been forced to convert to Islam. According to reports, some of the men had been circumcised against their will, and a paramilitary group involved in the incident confirmed that circumcisions had taken place while denying any element of coercion.

In 2004 Coptic Christians in Egypt occupied the main Coptic cathedral in Cairo for several days, angry at the disappearance of a priest's wife in a village in the Nile delta, who, they alleged, had been forced to convert to Islam. It is reported that allegations of forced conversions of Copts to Islam surface every year in Egypt.

Other notables among these have been the cases of Iraq's Mandaeans, Christians of Pakistan and Assyrian Christians of Ira who have faced coercion to convert to Islam.

In 2007, Mahant Nritya Gopal Das, a right-wing Hindu leader in India, received a letter from Jaish-e-Mohammed, threatening him with death if he did not convert to Islam.

In May 2007, members of the Christian community of Charsadda in the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan, close to the border of Afghanistan, reported that they had received letters threatening bombings if they did not convert to Isllam

There have been allegations of forced conversions by Sikhs in Pakistan. Also, as jizya was legalized by the Government of Pakistan in 2009, the Taliban have been known to kidnap minority communities to claim this tax, while officials use a significantly pro-Islam constitution to encourage conversions.

In Islam, apostasy is called "ridda" ("turning back") and is considered to be a profound insult to God. A person born of Muslim parents who rejects Islam is called a "murtad fitri" (natural apostate), and a person who converted to Islam and later rejects the religion is called a "murtad milli" (apostate from the community).

Quran specifically describes three types of punishment for apostates via these verses;

“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;” (Surah Al-Maidah 5:33)."

[poppynogood]

Do you people think that muslims are lying or something when they say they don't want to blow anything up or beat women or what?

The discussion is about islam not muslims, also a good many muslims do not know the truth about islam, and they are just as much victims of the evil cult as unbelievers are

[RGacky3]

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Islam commands that Muslims owe allegiance to Islam and not their country of birth. There is no shortage of flag waving Muslims ready to kill anyone that would defile a symbol of Islam.


All Muslims are Muslims first, there is, or should be, no national divide amongst Muslims. Desecrating and Islamic symbol is blasphemy- it's religious not nationalistic. In the USA it is illegal to burn or desecrate the flag is it not? Don't children have to pledge allegiance to the flag at school with their hands on their hearts? If you go to most places and desecrate their symbols or flags etc you might get a hostile response. Let's walk around Havana with an anti-Fidel T-shirt on..... Get my point?



2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
The list if too long.

Disagree. Human rights issues are very varied in Islamic nations. There is no straight line Islamic policy on human rights. Ironically I think it's only the Palestinian West Bank that an Islamic authority allows, and has allowed since 1951, homosexuality. There are undoubtedly issues within Islam around female emancipation and homosexuality but there have been in a lot of other countries too. I don't think you can just write them all off as medieval though. No one attacks nations such as Singapore for their stance where Buddhism is the predominant belief system.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The USA, the ‘west,’ everyone who is not Muslim and some Muslims who don’t want to fight.

I don't think Saudi Arabia or the Gulf States identify the West/USA as enemies and scapegoats. I don't think you can make such a generalisation. At the same time, the USA identifies anyone against the USA as a communist/terrorist/ or these days Islamist. The Nazis identified the non-Aryans, the Jews and so on as scapegoats. Hell in America the Irish and the Italians were once perceived as a threat to American values. This is not Islam this is human nature at its worst.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
It is the objective of every Muslim to become a martyr. The leader of the army would be the Caliph (if they had a Caliph).


Well this is just rubbish.


5. Rampant Sexism –

Sexism in Islam is ambiguous, but then most of the world has been sexist since time immemorial with a few exceptions, Female emancipation is also an issue in India with a Hindu majority. But are only Muslims sexists? There is of course an issue here.


6. Controlled Mass Media
Show me a Muslim country with a free press?


Do you think our presses are that free?

7. Obsession with National Security
They are obsessed with getting non Muslims out of Muslim countries.

Hmmm..... Merkel? EU? Homeland Security?


Not true at all for the most part.


8. Religion and Government are intertwined
Islam is not just a religion it is also a political and social ideology

So what's the difference? Capitalism, communism, this-ism and that-ism are intertwined with the state.


9. Corporate Power is Protected –
Have to think about that one!

What's the problem? Is that in Islam itself?


10. Labour Power is suppressed
Don’t understand that one but I suspect there are few unions in Muslims countries and I suspect there is no place for them in sharia law


Under Islamic laws, i.e. "pure" Islam, there is no need for unions etc because they work on the basis of that which follows Islamic teaching is just. That it the reason why.


11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Remember the Muslims in Afghanistan that blew up those thousand year old statues.

The "Muslims in Afghanistan"- no the Taliban. The rest is seriously flawed. There would be nothing left in Egypt if this were a tenet of Islam nor would the Islamic world have preserved the knowledge of the Ancient (non-Islamic) World.


12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Again – need I say more?
The United States has the highest document ed incarceration rate and total prison population in the world.



13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Show me a Muslim country that is not corrupt?


Yeah because they invade other countries against UN resolutions based on strange claims of weapons that do not exist. Their secret services run drugs and cartels.... Please.

14. Fraudulent Elections –
In Islam, elections are illegal.

Why do the words Bush and Florida come to mind? :) Hmm... dunno.


Look I am not saying that the Islamic world is utopia, it is not- but at the same time "let he who is without guilt cast the first stone". If people are going to have a critical debate on the good and bad of Islam they had better come up with more than this generalising bullshit.

Thank you.

[poppynogood]

I read an interesting article recently about Aceh, a very devout Muslim region in Indonesia (the largest Muslim country on Earth).
Indonesia was the 3rd largest communist national until 29 Sept 1965 when overnight the islamists took power and the following few weeks slaughtered 1,000,000 communists and christains.

Also I would like to point out that it is only recently Aceh has introduced sharia law, and two years ago performed caning a woman in public for zina


Some surfers went there on a trip, and managed to find some bootlegged alcohol (alcohol is banned there).If booze was legal then they would not have had to by gut rot


They reported that they drank around the other Muslims there, but no one cared, as they weren't Muslim themselves.Of course the muslims did not mind, as the surfers where most probably where paying 10 times the price of what they should have paid


It made me wonder if Muslims were as intolerant of other cultures as I had been led to believe.Well look back at the reaction to the Danish cartoons


Granted, there are certainly hardcore Salafist Muslims out there, but they make up something like 1% of the Muslim world (although that's still considerable, considering the fact that there's over a billion Muslims)

1% of 1.6 billion, that makes a big army, or looking another way, these would the the generals and majors leading the so called moderates


I don't really know enough about the subject to make definitive statements, though.

But that should not stop you from sleeping at the wheel

[poppynogood]

Usually anti-islamic rhetoric is accompanied by inciting people to war against the middle east. But going to war in the middle east doesn't even achieve any anti-islamic goal.

Not true

Educated Non-Muslims Don't Like About Islam in a Nutshell

THE QURAN is Islam's most holy book. Sixty-one percent of the Quran is about non-Muslims. Writings about what Muslims should do is religious. Writings about what non-Muslims should do or how Muslims should deal with non-Muslims is political . Therefore, based on Islam's most holy book, Islam is more political (61%) than religious (39%).

There are 245 verses in the Quran that could be considered "positive verses" about non-Muslims. Every single one of those verses have been abrogated by later, negative verses about non-Muslims. Not one positive verse about non-Muslims is left.

In contrast, there are 527 verses of intolerance toward non-Muslims, and 109 verses specifically advocating violence towards non-Muslims. Not one of these verses has been abrogated.

[#FF0000]

but yet somehow a lot of muslims simply don't give a fuck about what other people believe

imagine that

[lines]

There are 245 verses in the Quran that could be considered "positive verses" about non-Muslims. Every single one of those verses have been abrogated by later, negative verses about non-Muslims. Not one positive verse about non-Muslims is left.


And how is this unique to islam? Christians believe if you reject Jesus your going to hell. Most religions denigrate non-believers.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Of course the muslims did not mind, as the surfers where most probably where paying 10 times the price of what they should have paid

Nah, they didn't have hardly any money, actually (travelling without money is a tradition in the surfing community). It was in an article in Surfing magazine a couple years back.

[ComradeMan]

During the last 18 years thousands of xchristians have been massacred, and close on 1000 churches. Just recently sharia law has be implemented a caning in public has been introduced

Well then their Islamic credentials are suspect because I understood it that the Qu'ran specifically forbids harming the "peoples of the Book"- a book and a prophet means you are not an infidel albeit not a Muslim.

This is the problem- what you are doing is equating an extreme group who use and manipulate Islam for their own ends "the devil uses scripture for his own ends"- with Islam itself. Why don't you be more specific and underline your concerns with specific groups and individuals? What are their beliefs? To which "school" do they belong etc? It's a bit like equating nice elderly ladies who sell homemade cakes to raise money for orphans at a Methodist Hall with nutcase extremists calling to burn the Qu'ran or blowing up clinics? See the point... In any large group of people you have fanatics, extremists and out-and-out psychopaths- 1.6 billion people are bound to have a few.

[poppynogood]

Nah, they didn't have hardly any money, actually (travelling without money is a tradition in the surfing community). It was in an article in Surfing magazine a couple years back.

But that still did not stop them from paying through their noses

Also it is question able about having money, as Indonesia is pretty strict about people entering. If people arrive with enough cash the cover the time they intend to stay, then they are refused entry. Gut rot in Indo is about $2 for half a liters 1/2

[poppynogood]

Well then their Islamic credentials are suspect because I understood it that the Qu'ran specifically forbids harming the "peoples of the Book"- a book and a prophet means you are not an infidel albeit not a Muslim.

You are right, People of the Book is a term used to designate non-Muslim adherents to faiths which have a book of prayer. The three faiths that are mentioned in the Qur'an as people of the book are Judaism, Sabians and Christianity.

Now we have a problem, according to what you have just pointed out, Mohammeds credentials are also suspect

In AD 627, Muhammad committed an atrocity against the last remaining major tribe of Jews in Medina: the Qurayza.

He beheaded 800 men and the pubescent boys and enslaved the women and children

Muhammad was wise enough to have six clans execute two Jews each in order to stop any blood-feuds. The rest of the executions were probably carried out by Muhammad, and fellow Emigrants from Mecca.

Here is one thing that stands out both Mohammed and Hitler ordered the killing of Jews, Hitler never personally killed a Jew with his own hand, where as Mohammed did

[hatzel]

Well yeah, but that's only because G-d purposefully made everybody hate the Jews, so Muhammed was only acting as per G-d's will :laugh: No no, seriously (not like that wasn't serious), it's more the Shi'ites than the Sunni who dig all that Jew-hating shizzle, but last time I checked the whole Banu Qurayza affair could easily be put in the realm of political / territorial / whatever violence, rather than just killing people for being Jews...this isn't to say that certain Shi'ites like bringing out the anti-Jewish stuff every now and then, but that makes them no different from those Christians who might have read the book of John a few too many times...so does this make Christianity, and all countries with a Christian past, fascist too? Or...maybe it doesn't...

I guess I could make this argument, though, so let's do that, just for shits and giggles:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/FirstCrusade.jpg

Oh, look, it's a picture in a 13th century French Bible of Crusaders killing Jews. Therefore, the French (and the Francophonie) are all fascists, even today, as is Christianity and anybody who was baptised as a child or anybody who went to school here in England, because they probably went to a C of E school, and...oh, wait, none of this is making any sense...maybe that's because it's a bullhonk argument :closedeyes:

[Thirsty Crow]

If the state officially supports anti-clericalism, and possibly anti-theism too, then organised religion will have no power.
Jolly good, then the state should suppress personal beliefs?
Great, that's just fuckin' great.
And for the last time...people, learn what Fascism is.

[RGacky3]

poppynogood,

Let me ask you, have you personally been attacked my muslims? What about moderate muslims? DO you know any? Honestly, what is this beef.

I could go through ANY holy book and find tons of questionable stuff, just look through the book of revelation and the book of judges for example, so what. Not all Christians and not all Jews are radical, the same with Muslims.

Also Muslim countries are not always representative of Islam, the same way "christian" countries are not. But what do you care? What do you want, do you want Muslims to in your country to be kicked out? Do you want no one to be muslim? What do you want to happen?

[poppynogood]

poppynogood,
Let me ask you, have you personally been attacked my muslims? What about moderate muslims? DO you know any? Honestly, what is this beef.

I live in Indonesia, in a town not far from where I live I saw 29 churches burnt down in one day by hundreds of moderate moslem, in the next town further down the road again moderate moslems dragged headless bodies through the streets behind there motor bikes.

I lost 10 good friends (moslems) in the Bali bombing

A good friend of mine lost his mother and 12 year old sister raped a murdered along with another 160 women in the Jakarta riots

My wife had 3 relative murdered because the where communist in the 1965 massacre

My beef is islam is not fascist, it is evil

BTW, it has been proven in Britain, by a court of law ruling that it is not racist to call islam evil, so please refrain from calling me a racist

Now I have been polite as to answer your question, maybe you could answer this

What good does islam offer that no other religion has to offer ?

[Pavlov's House Party]

Trotsky wrote a good piece on people using words like "fascist" or "bolshevik" to describe movements that clearly weren't those in "Their Morals and Ours":


"A moralizing Philistine’s favorite method is the lumping of reaction’s conduct with that of revolution. He achieves success in this device through recourse to formal analogies. To him czarism and Bolshevism are twins. Twins are likewise discovered in fascism and communism. An inventory is compiled of the common features in Catholicism – or more specifically, Jesuitism – and Bolshevism. Hitler and Mussolini, utilizing from their side exactly the same method, disclose that liberalism, democracy, and Bolshevism represent merely different manifestations of one and the same evil. The conception that Stalinism and Trotskyism are “essentially” one and the same now enjoys the joint approval of liberals, democrats, devout Catholics, idealists, pragmatists, and anarchists.

The fundamental feature of these approchements and similitudes lies in their completely ignoring the material foundation of the various currents, that is, their class nature and by that token their objective historical role. Instead they evaluate and classify different currents according to some external and secondary manifestation, most often according to their relation to one or another abstract principle which for the given classifier has a special professional value. Thus to the Roman pope Freemasons and Darwinists, Marxists and anarchists are twins because all of them sacrilegiously deny the immaculate conception. To Hitler, liberalism and Marxism are twins because they ignore “blood and honor”. To a democrat, fascism and Bolshevism are twins because they do not bow before universal suffrage. And so forth....

If an ignorant peasant or shopkeeper, understanding neither the origin nor the sense of the struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, discovers himself between the two fires, he will consider both belligerent camps with equal hatred."

Emphasis mine.

[ComradeMan]

Found this map about religion in Indonesia, the country with the largest population of Muslims in the world.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ef/Map_Indonesian_religions.jpg/800px-Map_Indonesian_religions.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ef/Map_Indonesian_religions.jpg)

Indonesia does, I'm sorry to say, have a rather atrocious record on human rights.

I also found this article.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/09/25/authoritarian-religious-authority.html

I'm sorry that our fellow member and comrade has experienced the terrible things he has described. It's awful.

However I would say it might be better to talk about specific groups and factions instead of using general terms like "Muslims".


Trotsky also has a point there, but he also talks some shit too.

[gorillafuck]

Of course. All religion is authoritarian and fascist.
Authoritarianism isn't the same as fascism.

Also, to OP, it seems pretty Islamophobic to single out Islam as "fascist" (which it's not, the 14 characteristics aren't a good definition) and ignore other religions which are basically the same thing.

[timbaly]

Yo that is like answering why does the sun set in a pool of mud:crying:

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

I struggled with the question of how an eternal revelation of Allah could have such time-bound revelation in it. It seemed at odds with the nature of Allah – the all-knowing, all-wise, creator and sustainer of the universe; the eternal, self-existent one. As a Muslim this was one of the bigger challenges I faced with regard to the Quran. Although the Quran is said to be an eternal and universal scripture, I found it to be time-bound.

Not all Muslim scholars agree on what abrogation covers. Briefly here was my discovery.

Muslim scholars of old hold to the concept that some ayahs in the Quran abrogate other ayahs in the Quran, but do not all hold to the same set of abrogated and abrogating ayahs.

Other Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the Quran may abrogate the Quran as well as the Sunnah (deed or example of Mohammad) and vice versa.

Some Muslim scholars hold that the Quran abrogates all the previous scriptures, specifically the scriptures sent to Musa and Isa, but not itself
.
Some Muslim scholars, especially of recent times do not believe in the concept of abrogation at all.

Note that the ayah 2:106 above is clearly making the claim that only when a better ayah or similar ayah is available, does Allah change it and cause the older ones to be forgotten. And to drive the point home, the ayah continues on that Allah has power over all things. It is puzzling that Allah being all-wise needed to reveal better or similar ayahs to replace older ones.

Perhaps this was understandable for a Muslim if the Quran is talking about books given to Musa, then Isa, and finally Prophet Mohammad.

But what about ayahs within the life-span of Prophet Mohammad in the Quran – Allah was claiming to change earlier ayahs revealed in the Quran. This seemed completely out of context and reason for the Quran that claims to be for all time and all peoples.

(Was Mohammed making up verses as he went along and gained more power)

An example that is often used to show the topic of abrogation as relevant and true in the Quran is the topic of wine drinking. In early Islam, wine drinking and gambling were allowed -

Surah 2:219:

They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-

From this ayah it was taught that drinking and gambling could provide a benefit and also have bad effects. To identify that the practice of drinking wine was not uncommon among Muslims, another ayah was revealed that forbade the Muslims to come to prayer drunk,

Surah 4:43:

O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind drunk, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

Interesting. It seems like abrogation is highly subject to ones own interpretation. I see that there are many ways to look at it, it's certainly not definitive.

[timbaly]

All religions have their good points as well as having their idiosyncrasies. Islam isn't any worse than judaism and christianity.


And how is this unique to islam? Christians believe if you reject Jesus your going to hell. Most religions denigrate non-believers.


I could go through ANY holy book and find tons of questionable stuff, just look through the book of revelation and the book of judges for example, so what. Not all Christians and not all Jews are radical, the same with Muslims.

The discussion is about Islam. Why does Christianity or Judaism need to be mentioned? Why must one address all religions once the comment on one? I don't think anyone is saying muslims are all radical. The main argument seems to be that Islam has the power radicalize the non radical. Another argument seems to be that sharia law is oppressive and the quran not only advocates it but requires it. The argument against sharia is that even though many self proclaimed muslims do not follow it they are at risk of becoming supporters and advocates because it is the word of their god.

[timbaly]

Nah, they didn't have hardly any money, actually (travelling without money is a tradition in the surfing community). It was in an article in Surfing magazine a couple years back.


I found this article about sharia law in Aceh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6220256.stm

Do you think the surfer story occurred before the institution of sharia? It seems like it started in December of 2006. Anyway I'm sure there are many muslims in Aceh who wish alcohol was still legal.

[Dimentio]

I hate to defend Islam, since I find it an absurd and patriarchal belief system, but I feel compelled to straighten out a few things now, just as I would straighten out Stalin, Mao or even Pol Pot if someone would come with unsubstantiated claims.

When Islam was originally formed, there were no elections anywhere. Islam was the first belief system in the world which made it a duty to provide the poor with welfare, and the caliphates - at least in the urban areas - were multi-cultural, tolerant and fairly enlightened societies during the Middle Ages, at least in comparison with some other cultures.

Islam is an anti-national ideology, even if some nations have incorporated Islam as a part of their national identity. Ultimately, it aims for Islam to dominate the entire world and everyone becoming muslims. Unsympathetic, yes, but hardly nationalistic, since every muslim would have equal rights and obligations. In that sense, Islam is more similar to marxism than it is to fascism, as it is an internationalist belief system.

Islamist states are neither basing their ideology on "might is right", as fascism is doing, but on Islamic Law. That means that - theoretically speaking - the Ummah (community), represented by the Judges, should govern through the Quran and the Hadiths. It is hardly democratic, but neither is it based on autocracy (even though only the Rashidun Caliphate, and to some extent the Islamic Republic of Iran, have been following the original model, as most caliphates quickly has turned into despotisms). Yet again, this is more similar to marxism-leninism (dictatorship of the proletariat through the enlightened vanguard) than it is to fascism (the only individual espousing openly fascist beliefs and values during the middle ages was Genghis Khan by the way).

In short, you cannot simply call anything you don't like fascist, as the Tea Party crowd are doing (Hitler = Lenin = ACORN = Obama).

Islam cannot be fascist because fascism is built on nationalism and on autocracy, while Islam is built on internationalism and kritarchy. Then, that doesn't make Islam "good", but it certainly doesn't make it fascist.

And the fourteen signs of fascism was probably written by some sixteen year old Democratic Underground activist on Kerry's campaign in 2004, and is on that intellectual level. The OP has taken a definition on fascism which has nothing to do with fascism, and applies it on Islam which in itself isn't fascist.

[poppynogood]

I'm sorry that our fellow member and comrade has experienced the terrible things he has described. It's awful.

Thankyou

When you live with this going on around does give one a different perspective on things, and has made me take a very close and critical look at islam

I live amongst muslims and not in an expat enclaves in a muslim land, and I speak their language. My experience of islam is first hand, not that of the falafel and mint tea sippers anti-fascist,s of UAF

I live in Java with an Indonesian woman, and I love Java, it is a fantastic place, I detest islam which is eradicating the javanese culture which what make Java a unique place.


However I would say it might be better to talk about specific groups and factions instead of using general terms like "Muslims".

This is not so easy to do, as it amounts to splitting hairs, any all the groups have their roots in the koran and hadithes, and all are as bad as each other, be they Sunni, Shiite, Salafi or Sufi.

Here I would l like to stress this point, which I find also strange why many people on the left wish to overlook

In 1965 when the islamists took power in Indonesia the Sunni muslims mass slaughtered nearly a million communists

In 1979 when the islamists took power in Iran the Sunni muslims there was a mass slaughtered of communists

Now as for Islam is a facist ideology

“As a rule, fascist governments are dominated by a dictator, who usually possesses a magnetic personality, wears a showy uniform, and rallies his followers by mass parades; appeals to strident nationalism; and promotes suspicion or hatred of both foreigners and “impure” people within his own nation, such as the Jews in Germany.”

In Islam, the Khalifa does not wear a showy uniform. On the contrary, in accordance to Muhammad’s sunnah, he exerts himself to make a public “display of modesty”. Modesty is just a show and a hallmark of Islam. The more modest you dress, the more pious you look. But the Friday prayers and the hajj are the Islamic version of mass parades that are designed to impress the believer, give him a sense of pride and belonging and make him firm in his belief that Islam is strong.

This parade to Muhammad was so important that in one hadith he is quoted saying:

“I thought that I should order the prayer to be commenced and command a person to lead people in prayer, and I should then go along with some persons having a fagot of fuel with them to the people who have not attended the prayer (in congregation) and would burn their houses with fire. [Muslim4,1370; Bukhari1,11,626]

Islam also promoted suspicion and hatred of the unbelievers. Muhammad said that the unbelievers are impure (najis) 9:28 and instilled in them the hatred of the Jews, saying God transformed them into apes and swine. 2.65, 5.60, 7.166

Clearly Islamic system of government is fascistic.

• It is marked by centralization of authority under a supreme leader vested with divine clout.
• It has stringent socioeconomic control over all aspects of all its subjects irrespective of their faith.
• It suppresses its opposition through terror and censorship.
• It has a policy of belligerence towards non-believers.
• It practices religious apartheid.
• It disdains reason.
• It is imperialistic.
• It is oppressive.
• It is dictatorial and
• It is controlling.

Islam, like fascism, appeals to people with low self esteem and low intelligence. Both these ideologies are irrational. They disdain reason, and hail devotion and submission to a higher authority. Like fascists, Muslims are triumphalists. They seek power, domination and control. They pride themselves in their strength of number, in their mindless heroism, in their disdain for life and in their willingness to kill and die for their cause.

Islam is political and political Islam is fascism.

[Dimentio]

Thankyou

When you live with this going on around does give one a different perspective on things, and has made me take a very close and critical look at islam

I live amongst muslims and not in an expat enclaves in a muslim land, and I speak their language. My experience of islam is first hand, not that of the falafel and mint tea sippers anti-fascist,s of UAF

I live in Java with an Indonesian woman, and I love Java, it is a fantastic place, I detest islam which is eradicating the javanese culture which what make Java a unique place.



This is not so easy to do, as it amounts to splitting hairs, any all the groups have their roots in the koran and hadithes, and all are as bad as each other, be they Sunni, Shiite, Salafi or Sufi.

Here I would l like to stress this point, which I find also strange why many people on the left wish to overlook

In 1965 when the islamists took power in Indonesia the Sunni muslims mass slaughtered nearly a million communists

In 1979 when the islamists took power in Iran the Sunni muslims there was a mass slaughtered of communists

Now as for Islam is a facist ideology

“As a rule, fascist governments are dominated by a dictator, who usually possesses a magnetic personality, wears a showy uniform, and rallies his followers by mass parades; appeals to strident nationalism; and promotes suspicion or hatred of both foreigners and “impure” people within his own nation, such as the Jews in Germany.”

In Islam, the Khalifa does not wear a showy uniform. On the contrary, in accordance to Muhammad’s sunnah, he exerts himself to make a public “display of modesty”. Modesty is just a show and a hallmark of Islam. The more modest you dress, the more pious you look. But the Friday prayers and the hajj are the Islamic version of mass parades that are designed to impress the believer, give him a sense of pride and belonging and make him firm in his belief that Islam is strong.

This parade to Muhammad was so important that in one hadith he is quoted saying:

“I thought that I should order the prayer to be commenced and command a person to lead people in prayer, and I should then go along with some persons having a fagot of fuel with them to the people who have not attended the prayer (in congregation) and would burn their houses with fire. [Muslim4,1370; Bukhari1,11,626]

Islam also promoted suspicion and hatred of the unbelievers. Muhammad said that the unbelievers are impure (najis) 9:28 and instilled in them the hatred of the Jews, saying God transformed them into apes and swine. 2.65, 5.60, 7.166

Clearly Islamic system of government is fascistic.

• It is marked by centralization of authority under a supreme leader vested with divine clout.
• It has stringent socioeconomic control over all aspects of all its subjects irrespective of their faith.
• It suppresses its opposition through terror and censorship.
• It has a policy of belligerence towards non-believers.
• It practices religious apartheid.
• It disdains reason.
• It is imperialistic.
• It is oppressive.
• It is dictatorial and
• It is controlling.

Islam, like fascism, appeals to people with low self esteem and low intelligence. Both these ideologies are irrational. They disdain reason, and hail devotion and submission to a higher authority. Like fascists, Muslims are triumphalists. They seek power, domination and control. They pride themselves in their strength of number, in their mindless heroism, in their disdain for life and in their willingness to kill and die for their cause.

Islam is political and political Islam is fascism.

Where Islam is practiced as a political system, it clearly gets these traits. Where it is just another religion/cultural background, it tends to be more like any other religion (though some degrees more patriarchal). There is a difference between the noun fascistic and the ideology fascism though (otherwise, you could equally well claim that Stalin and Mao were fascists).

At the same time, countries with a majority-muslim population should not be attacked to be subjugated under western economic and military occupation, and neither should muslim immigrants be attacked on the basis of their faith in western countries. Political Islam must be opposed, but not at the expense of kow-towing to other reactionaries.

[Thirsty Crow]

Now as for Islam is a facist ideology

“As a rule, fascist governments are dominated by a dictator, who usually possesses a magnetic personality, wears a showy uniform, and rallies his followers by mass parades; appeals to strident nationalism; and promotes suspicion or hatred of both foreigners and “impure” people within his own nation, such as the Jews in Germany.”
This is bullshit.
I mean, I'm not reffering to the validity of each statement, but to the underlying method of distinguishing "Fascism" and other forms of authoritarian political order.
Magnetic personality? Just how magnetic was Mussolini's personality?
Showy uniform? Seriously, what the hell??
Please, learn what Fascism is. It is not an ahistorical concept which can be mindlessly used when discussing any historical phenomena (that's exactly what you are doing).
First and foremost, it is a European political ideology, a product of the reaction (on behalf of the ruling class -bourgeois and petite bourgeois) towards modernity (parliamentary democracy, imperialist WWI, capitalist social relations - which destroyed "old" social bonds - capitalist crisis and class struggle).


Clearly Islamic system of government is fascistic.No, it is not. You keep babbling about showy uniforms and "magnetic personalities"...well, I can advise you: educate yourself because you're making no sense whatsoever.

Islam, like fascism, appeals to people with low self esteem and low intelligence. Both these ideologies are irrational. They disdain reason, and hail devotion and submission to a higher authority. Like fascists, Muslims are triumphalists. They seek power, domination and control. They pride themselves in their strength of number, in their mindless heroism, in their disdain for life and in their willingness to kill and die for their cause.So, in other words, certain non-European ethnicities have a great number of people of low intelligence? Wow, and you, of all the people, keep babbling about Fascism.
And Fascist ideology is not irrational. It is quite rational in its defense of the capitalist order.

I think you should be restriced since, clearly, you are the one holding opinions which closely resemble chauvinist ones.

[IndependentCitizen]

Depends who's reading the book, then their interpretation could be fascist. I mean, isnt it down to a person's interpretation of Islam?

[Dimentio]

Menocchio: PNG is a former muslim living in a largely muslim country.

[balaclava]

So you think all 1.6 billion muslims follow Saudi Arabia's line on Islam, then?

Lots of Muslims do not follow the Qu'ran; lots of Muslims have never read the Qu'ran; lots of Muslims are struggling to hide the more unpalatable aspects of the Qu’ran. I do know that the Saudi (wahhabi) have chosen to bite the bullet and follow the words of the Qu’ran, the hadith and sunnah whether they like it or not.

[balaclava]

Perhaps this is a good thread to show the video.

reX7vGb-ToA

Can anyone confirm or deny these allegations? Perhaps with passages from the quran? If the allegations are true I'm still not sure that makes Islam fascist, but I'm sure some will argue that.

I can confirm that the information presented in the video is correct albeit that the interpretation of taqiyya is arguably exagerated. If there is any particular thing(s) that you would like evidence of let me know and I'll show you the verse(s)

[balaclava]

2) Religion cannot be Fascist since it does not function as a political ideology


Islam is a political ideology (and a social ideology and a religion (because it includes God))!

[#FF0000]

Islam is a political ideology (and a social ideology and a religion (because it includes God))!

except a ton of muslims don't think of it as a political ideology.

[balaclava]

I'm really curious as to what other people here think should happen to Muslims since they're all so violent or something.

The vast majority of Muslims haven't studied Islam, they haven't read the Qu'ran, they've just been spoon fed whatever version their local community feds them. I believe that there should be a debate on the content of the Qu'ran and it be shown to be a document that promote division, conflict and violence and that those Muslims whom you call moderate need to be shown the content of the ideology they are following and non Muslims should be shown the nature of the ideology followed by their Muslims neighbours.

[Dimentio]

Why do you guys always appear in droves?

[#FF0000]

They're like ants with twice the numbers and half the brains.

[RGacky3]

The vast majority of Muslims haven't studied Islam, they haven't read the Qu'ran, they've just been spoon fed whatever version their local community feds them. I believe that there should be a debate on the content of the Qu'ran and it be shown to be a document that promote division, conflict and violence and that those Muslims whom you call moderate need to be shown the content of the ideology they are following and non Muslims should be shown the nature of the ideology followed by their Muslims neighbours.

Look, why don't you STFU, and let Muslims decide what Islam is, considering its their religion.

[ComradeMan]

Hang on a minute- a Muslim who does not follow the Qu'ran is a cultural muslim and would be considered a non-muslim or even apostate in "pure" Islam if you like. I think our Indonesian comrade is talking about valid arguments but the way it's being put across is perhaps a bit crude or generalistic. Just as people are apt to attack Christianity and/or Catholicism here (with little reproach) and in the past Judaism has come in for it too, Islam sometimes seems to be a non-touchable subject. As someone who has lived in Islamic countries and has many muslim friends I am well aware of the different currents and extremists within Islam- not all of them are pretty I can guarantee you. But we need to SPECIFY. So please, to our Indonesian comrade could you name some names etc be specific. If you just say "Muslims" then it's tarring 1.6 billion with the same brush.

To the Western comrades- we live in a very secular world where religion, especially amongst the majority of the younger generation, is very "cultural" and not so much doctrinal- so let's try and see things in perspective too. In the Islamic world religion, in some places, is an integral part of existance.

This is not Islamophobia before people start banging on about it- at the same time it would be foolish to say that there are not currents within Islam who are as reactionary and quasi-fascistic as the most extreme Zionists or Christian fanatics.

[balaclava]

Also, I'm curious. Don't you guys think that there's a significant bit of xenophobia, or racism, or chauvinism involved with this anti-Islam hysteria in Europe and America? I mean, Muslims are a very small minority either way, and considering an even smaller number of them follow this fundamentalist strain of it, why go so hard against Islam?

I don’t know about others, but as a free thinker I wondered why, when Muslim A and Muslim B were reading the same book they were getting different messages. I discovered that Muslim A was being lied to and that the world were being lied to and I don’t like being lied to.

[Crimson Commissar]

Look, why don't you STFU, and let Muslims decide what Islam is, considering its their religion.
Being a "follower" of Islam doesn't mean people know more about it than someone who is an atheist or agnostic. I was once a Christian, and back then pretty much EVERY atheist would have known more about Christianity than me.

[balaclava]

Yet untold thousands of islamic scholars and clerics who have studied the qu'ran do understand, so who are we to say they are wrong

For 1,400 years scholars and clerics having been battling to answer the mind numbing number of ambiguities and contradictions and they’re still doing it. That was and is easy when your congregation is illiterate and isolated.

[balaclava]

The discussion is about islam not muslims, also a good many muslims do not know the truth about islam,

Correct - the problem isn't Muslims it's Islam

[balaclava]

except a ton of muslims don't think of it as a political ideology.

There are four types of Muslim;
1. One who has studied Islam and who adheres strictly to the word of God (Qu’ran) the hadith and the sunnah; we call him an extremist.
2. One who has studied Islam and who has chosen not to adhere to the word of God (Qu’ran) the hadith and the sunnah notwithstanding that he knows he will fry in hell; we call him a moderate.
3. One who has studied Islam and who has chosen to adhere to the word of God (Qu’ran) the hadith and the sunnah but who likes the comfort and security in the west so much that he can’t leave it, he spends his life trying to explain that although it quacks, has feathers and walks with waggle it isn’t a duck.
4. One who has not studied Islam and whose head is buried in the sand; we call him a Muslim.

The first three know that Islam is a political and social ideology and also a religion solely because it is God who delivered the political and social blueprint.

[#FF0000]

Correct - the problem isn't Muslims it's Islam

If people who rep Islam don't interpret it as a violent thing and are not violent as a result of it, then who cares?

[balaclava]

I see that one contributor to this debate has been banned, I don’t know why that happened but should whoever does that be considering banning me I’d ask you to give me a little more time as I am enjoying this; it’s really quite refreshing debating with people who clearly are free thinkers capable of constructing structured argument.

[Dimentio]

If people who rep Islam don't interpret it as a violent thing and are not violent as a result of it, then who cares?

Everyone knows that the muslims in reality are like the Zerg.

They come to western states like England to breed and to intimidate good English boys with their swarthy skin.

Then they have many children who also grow up as muslims.

When they reach 51% of the population, they suddenly explode in rage, attacking peaceful Englishmen, then proclaiming an Islamic caliphate where they beat English women, force English children to bow down to Mecca and forbid the eating of pig.

Because they have a collective hive mind.

:lol:

*Irony warning for the stalinists*

[#FF0000]

spawn more mosques

[Ele'ill]

Nothing to it but to take all their jobs that weren't there anyways

[Nolan]

spawn more mosques

But first they must rape white christian women and take everyone's jobs to gather resources.

[ComradeMan]

The trouble with all this is that extremists make the headlines and moderates don't. Could a lot of the people here attacking and defending name the more moderate and positively progressive voices in Islam? Probably not. The same goes for other movemments too. That's why I say "islamists" do such harm to Islam as a whole and their so-called fellow muslims. They create a negative perception through their denouncements and acts that reverberates around the world whereas all the things the moderates do are unheard of or ignored.

Salem Abu Al-Futuh, "We Will Conquer Italy and the Rest of Europe, as Well as North and South America; The West Will Convert to Islam,"
http://www.giornalettismo.com/archives/82953/l%E2%80%99islam-conquistera-l%E2%80%99italia/

It only takes one nutcase like this... and see what happens....! I cannot vouch for the source of this but it caused a big uproar in Italy.

Here's our chap...
SXNVAWEgzWI

[#FF0000]

Just want to say it again for anyone who stumbles across this from Google or something. Dimentio, me, and Red America are joking about the Muslims = Zerg thing. <3

[#FF0000]

There's a joke about build orders we're missing here btw

[balaclava]

Islam is an anti-national ideology

First let me say how much I enjoyed your well constructed and well balanced post.

That said, one the question of nationalism which is possibly key to fascism, I would suggest that Islam is nationalistic. We tend to think of nations as countries with boundaries populated by a certain race of people. Islam defines a nation as the ummah. And, as you rightly say, aims to achieve world wide geographical domination by the ummah; the nation of Islam

[balaclava]

Depends who's reading the book, then their interpretation could be fascist. I mean, isnt it down to a person's interpretation of Islam?

Oh how I wish it were so :(

Unfortunately there is the word(s) and then there is the misinterpretation and no matter how hard they try the word (of the Qu’ran – the word of God) won’t go away.

[balaclava]

They're like ants with twice the numbers and half the brains.

Don’t sell yourself short by substituting insults for structured evidenced argument – you are better than that.

[BuddhaInBabylon]

If you ask me, there is a deeper problem. The very concept of monotheism is the enemy. If not Allah, extremists kill for Jehova. The crusades were the beginning i think...and now we have this immense pile of shit we know as reality...because of two ideologies that each say to themselves "my god is the only god that is real, and as a follower of this god, i am right and everyone else who thinks not as i, is wrong."
To such a follower i would say "what is the "i" of which you speak"? but not everyone is capable of such thoughts i have found.
i have muslim friends...and i get along just fine because they keep their beliefs to themselves and i keep my thoughts to myself, and life is happy and wonderful so long as it stays that way. Religion is fucked.

But, Islam is not Fascist.
Even though i am enamored with the idea of calling everyone i hate a fascist, facts are facts, and fascism is a different animal i think. There IS a sort of hyper-nationalism feel to the radical parts of islamic followers that transcends physical borders and settles on "ideological" borders instead, but i believe these sorts of muslims to be the minority.

I am rambling....

[balaclava]

poppynogood,

Let me ask you, have you personally been attacked my muslims? What about moderate muslims? DO you know any?

Define ‘moderate’ Muslim. Thinking about it? Oh - soooooo many pitfalls.

[Сталин]

Islam is definitely a Fascist ideology. And it is an ideology when it's laws are being used to govern a country, need I state all the examples?

Oppression of homosexuals/women/non-Muslims/non-conformists/etc....

[RGacky3]

If not Allah, extremists kill for Jehova

Allah is arabic for God, and its the same God as Jehovah, you moron, Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christian.


Define ‘moderate’ Muslim. Thinking about it? Oh - soooooo many pitfalls.

Well, there we go, your a Bigot, ever met any moderate christians?

[Crimson Commissar]

Well, there we go, your a Bigot, ever met any moderate christians?
Just because most muslims arent white doesnt meant you can just go "OMFG U FUKIN BIGOT OMG" every time someone says something that could be seen as offensive to muslims. When will you ever understand, we are NOT, and we NEVER have, been opposing islam based on racism and xenophobia.

[RGacky3]

Oppression of homosexuals/women/non-Muslims/non-conformists/etc....

Your a Stalinist ...... Seriously.


Just because most muslims arent white doesnt meant you can just go "OMFG U FUKIN BIGOT OMG"

I did'nt call you a racist, your a religious bigot.

But again, do you know any moderate christians? what about Jews?

[BuddhaInBabylon]

Allah is arabic for God, and its the same God as Jehovah, you moron, Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christian.



tell that to a muslim, or a christian, or a jew.
oh yeah and thank you, i appreciate unnecessary insults.

[Crimson Commissar]

I did'nt call you a racist, your a religious bigot.
Possibly. But I have many good reasons for it.


But again, do you know any moderate christians? what about Jews?
I know quite a few moderate christians. Don't know many jews to be honest so I couldn't really answer that. And, I actually do know a few moderate muslims. But they still seem to find it completely acceptable that their god would send atheists to hell.

[Сталин]

So in other words you condone the oppressive islamic laws that demonize homosexuals, oppress women, teach their children that god is telling them to fight holy wars and lead a life of violence? Explain yourself. A true socialist of any terms would see the truth behind islam.

[Crimson Commissar]

So in other words you condone the oppressive islamic laws that demonize homosexuals, oppress women, teach their children that god is telling them to fight holy wars and lead a life of violence? Explain yourself. A true socialist of any terms would see the truth behind islam.
Agreed. Most religions in the world completely go against the values and morals of socialism.

[#FF0000]

So in other words you condone the oppressive islamic laws that demonize homosexuals, oppress women, teach their children that god is telling them to fight holy wars and lead a life of violence? Explain yourself. A true socialist of any terms would see the truth behind islam.

A "true socialist" would see past the "it's about religion" nonsense and see that the crux of the issue is the same xenophobic, nativist, anti-immigrant nonsense that we've seen time and time and time and time again.

[ComradeMan]

A "true socialist" would see past the "it's about religion" nonsense and see that the crux of the issue is the same xenophobic, nativist, anti-immigrant nonsense that we've seen time and time and time and time again.

Yes and no-- the comrade in Indonesia being one point in question---

[timbaly]

I can confirm that the information presented in the video is correct albeit that the interpretation of taqiyya is arguably exagerated. If there is any particular thing(s) that you would like evidence of let me know and I'll show you the verse(s)

poppynogood explained the abrogation to me but I was wondering if you could give your interpretations of the verses that support it.

Can you also show me the verses on taqiyya?

Thanks.

[Сталин]

A "true socialist" would see past the "it's about religion" nonsense and see that the crux of the issue is the same xenophobic, nativist, anti-immigrant nonsense that we've seen time and time and time and time again.
I don't see it as religion... I'm hardly religious, I haven't been to my Church in several years. And if you haven't notoced, islam is pretty xenophobic itself lol. Look at every islamic country and then take a look at how they live; how they operate.

[timbaly]

A "true socialist" would see past the "it's about religion" nonsense and see that the crux of the issue is the same xenophobic, nativist, anti-immigrant nonsense that we've seen time and time and time and time again.

I don't think that the vast majority of people writing in this thread are attacking Islam from a xenophobic, nativist, or anti-immigrant perspective. The issue here is written Islam. The discussion has been about what Islam teaches not about what muslims think.


If people who rep Islam don't interpret it as a violent thing and are not violent as a result of it, then who cares?

I care and a lot of other people do because Islam as written in the holy books is a hateful religion. It justifies hatred against other people. Even though there are passages that say jews and christians must be respected there is also a story about jews being premptively attacked and murdered (Qurayza). It's also non-sensical because it tells people to believe in a god of which there is no proof for. It discourages thinking and promotes faith.
The quran is widely accepted as the word of god and therefore many muslims (most of them) who do not follow quran word for word are at risk of being convinced to follow the "word of god" and the potentially dangerous and anti-human passages. Most importantly religion is far too often used as an escape. It distracts people from their material conditions and keeps them concentrated on being devout rather than improving their lot on earth. It's an unecessary divider.

[Vampire Lobster]

BTW, it has been proven in Britain, by a court of law ruling that it is not racist to call islam evil, so please refrain from calling me a racist

...okay, so this fellow here considers himself a revolutionary leftist and at the same time, he thinks British legislative system is a completely valid authority and we have no reason to question its definition of racism?

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/4797/hahaohwow.jpg

[Dimentio]

I don't see it as religion... I'm hardly religious, I haven't been to my Church in several years. And if you haven't notoced, islam is pretty xenophobic itself lol. Look at every islamic country and then take a look at how they live; how they operate.

Even if muslims in their home countries were cannibals with chicken bones in their noses, we would still be obliged to fight against racism at our own countries and against imperialism abroad, out of ethical principles.

[Dimentio]

First let me say how much I enjoyed your well constructed and well balanced post.

That said, one the question of nationalism which is possibly key to fascism, I would suggest that Islam is nationalistic. We tend to think of nations as countries with boundaries populated by a certain race of people. Islam defines a nation as the ummah. And, as you rightly say, aims to achieve world wide geographical domination by the ummah; the nation of Islam

In the same way, you could call communism "nationalistic" too, because communists call what they identify with "the international proletariat". Thus, you just turn nationalism into a general term for group identifications.

All organised groups in the entire human history has had their "us" and their "them".

[RGacky3]

And if you haven't notoced, islam is pretty xenophobic itself lol. Look at every islamic country and then take a look at how they live; how they operate.

Islam out of all the major religions, probably has the best record when it comes to race and ethnicities.


I don't see it as religion

You don't see Islam as a religion? Then your an idiot.


tell that to a muslim, or a christian, or a jew.
oh yeah and thank you, i appreciate unnecessary insults.

Christians know that, jews know that, muslims know that, yeah, its the same God, Jehovah the God of Abraham.

I think that insult was nessesary because your ignorant.


I know quite a few moderate christians. Don't know many jews to be honest so I couldn't really answer that. And, I actually do know a few moderate muslims. But they still seem to find it completely acceptable that their god would send atheists to hell.

As for your second part, so what? Let them believe that, it does'nt hurt anyone. Many christians believe that non christians go to hell.

[#FF0000]

I don't see it as religion... I'm hardly religious, I haven't been to my Church in several years. And if you haven't notoced, islam is pretty xenophobic itself lol. Look at every islamic country and then take a look at how they live; how they operate.

Yeah, everybody in the world should take its cues on how to treat minorities from the Saudi Arabian government.

Good plan, guy.

[Сталин]

Even if muslims in their home countries were cannibals with chicken bones in their noses, we would still be obliged to fight against racism at our own countries and against imperialism abroad, out of ethical principles.
You're weak if you fight for your enemies. Socialism/Communism are conflicting with islam in far too many ways.

[Сталин]

Islam out of all the major religions, probably has the best record when it comes to race and ethnicities.



You don't see Islam as a religion? Then your an idiot.



Christians know that, jews know that, muslims know that, yeah, its the same God, Jehovah the God of Abraham.

I think that insult was nessesary because your ignorant.



As for your second part, so what? Let them believe that, it does'nt hurt anyone. Many christians believe that non christians go to hell.
Take time to read my posts fuckhead! I was refferring to their laws that force conformity when you enter their countries. Women HAVE to wear robes and scarves, homosexuals can be EXECUTED if caught in public with another man, saying any slander to their deity can land you missing a limb, or dead even. Wake up and pull your head out your ass.

[#FF0000]

But none of us think those are good things.

[Dimentio]

You're weak if you fight for your enemies. Socialism/Communism are conflicting with islam in far too many ways.

This is not a matter about fighting for or against anyone. And yes, the left is very weak, historically speaking.

[Dimentio]

Take time to read my posts fuckhead! I was refferring to their laws that force conformity when you enter their countries. Women HAVE to wear robes and scarves, homosexuals can be EXECUTED if caught in public with another man, saying any slander to their deity can land you missing a limb, or dead even. Wake up and pull your head out your ass.

No insults, please. We know there's a lil' difference between the left in Russia and the left in the west, but please try to be respectful.

[Thirsty Crow]

Islam is definitely a Fascist ideology. And it is an ideology when it's laws are being used to govern a country, need I state all the examples?

Oppression of homosexuals/women/non-Muslims/non-conformists/etc....
No, seriously, my mind will melt if I ever read again such stupid remarks regarding the phenomenon of Fascism. I'm on the very verge here, folks.
Educate yourself, it's never too late.

[balaclava]

Does this forum have any Muslim members?

Why is that there are x billion Muslims in the world and none of them want to talk about politics to anyone other than talking with other Muslims about the implementation of sharia law?

[balaclava]

[QUOTE=BuddhaInBabylon;1909398]But, Islam is not Fascist.
Even though i am enamored with the idea of calling everyone i hate a fascist, facts are facts, and fascism is a different animal i think. There IS a sort of hyper-nationalism feel to the radical parts of islamic followers that transcends physical borders and settles on "ideological" borders instead, but i believe these sorts of muslims to be the minority.
QUOTE]

You are speaking about Muslims, I am speaking about Islam. Muslims are people and people think and do whatever they think and do, Islam is an ideology and although there is no clear definitionof what is fascist, it comes very close to most definitions.

[poppynogood]

No, seriously, my mind will melt if I ever read again such stupid remarks regarding the phenomenon of Fascism. I'm on the very verge here, folks.

Well why not enlighten us with the ultimate definition of fascism.

I have noticed most here have trashed the comparison between Islam by refuting that the definition of fascism is wrong

So

Here are a few more attempts to define fascism

#1

Michael Mann is an historical sociologist and Professor of Sociology at UCLA. In his book Fascists (Cambridge University Press, 2004) he provides the following definition:

“Fascism is the pursuit of a transcendent and cleansing nation-statism through paramilitarism.” (Mann, op. cit., p. 13)

Definition of terms:

· Transcendence: Belief that the state (ummah/kaliphate) can transcend social conflict and blend all social classes into a harmonious whole. Belief in the power of political ideology (islam)to transcend human nature and produce a better world.

· Cleansing (ethnic): Favoring one or more ethnic or racial groups (religious) over others, either by granting special privileges or imposing disabilities; deportation of ethnic minorities, or worse.

· Cleansing (political): Silencing the political (religious) opposition so that the transcendent aims of fascism can be realized. Restricting the freedom of speech, outlawing opposition parties, imprisoning political opponents (or worse) and indoctrinating youth in fascist principles.

· Statism (sharia) Promoting a high degree of state (ummah/kaliphate) intervention in personal, social, or economic matters. Belief that the state (ummah/kaliphate) can accomplish anything.

· Nationalism (islam) Belief in the inherent unity of a population with distinct linguistic, physical, or cultural (religious) characteristics and its identification with a nation-state (islamic-state). Belief that the ummah/kaliphate) nation( possesses special attributes that make it superior to other nations in some or all ways.

· Paramilitarism (muhjadeen/jihadis) "Grass roots", populist squadrism (muhjadeen/jihadis) aimed at coercing opponents and obtaining popular approbation by acting as a supplementary police force (mutaween/vice police)

#2

Robert Paxton is an American historian and emeritus professor of history at Columbia University. In his book The Anatomy of Fascism (Alfred A. Knopf, 2004) he develops the following definition:

“Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a massed-based party of committed nationalist militants (muhjadeen/jihadis) working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites (mullahs/clerics), abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external explansion.”

[poppynogood]

A "true socialist" would see past the "it's about religion" nonsense and see that the crux of the issue is the same xenophobic, nativist, anti-immigrant nonsense that we've seen time and time and time and time again.

Can you give me one good example where, "it's about religion" nonsense equates to anti-immigrant nonsense.

[ComradeMan]

...okay, so this fellow here considers himself a revolutionary leftist and at the same time, he thinks British legislative system is a completely valid authority and we have no reason to question its definition of racism?


Well quite frankly it isn't racism to attack a religious ideology, on that basis a lot of atheists would be racists wouldn't they? It's not racist to attack/criticise the religious belief system/ideology- what is racist is to attack a "race" or group of people on the basis of ethnicity. With religion it gets complicated but I don't think we need a British court to tell us the difference either.

The issue here is that a lot of people use attacking Islam as a cover for (perhaps) attacking various minority groups who are Muslims- EDL perhaps? However, in the case of the Indonesian member here I don't think he is doing that. I think he's (justifiably) upset about what's going on Indonesia and in this specific case it's Islamic fanaticism that is one of the major issues.

[RGacky3]

Well quite frankly it isn't racism to attack a religious ideology

No its not racism, but what is bigoted is when you lump all people of a certain faith together without actually understanding what they actually believe in.

I think that is just as bad as racism.


Islam is an ideology and although there is no clear definitionof what is fascist, it comes very close to most definitions.

Is Christianity and Jewdeism an ideology too???

[RGacky3]

Women HAVE to wear robes and scarves, homosexuals can be EXECUTED if caught in public with another man, saying any slander to their deity can land you missing a limb, or dead even. Wake up and pull your head out your ass.

Those are specific laws of specific countries, a while back sodomy laws in America put you in prison, now I don't go and say Christianity is fascist.

No one is FOR those laws, but you are saying thats some sort of Islamic ideology that is one in the same.

[Jazzratt]

Can you give me one good example where, "it's about religion" nonsense equates to anti-immigrant nonsense. In the United Kingdom various groups of sinister racist bastards such as the BNP and the EDL emphasise the difference in culture between "indigenous" (i.e white) brits and immigrants. One particularly effective way they try to emphasise these differences is by pointing at islam, quite often they'll adopt rhetoric like the EDL use but it always has the undercurrents of anti-immigrant feeling.

[Geordie]

Does this forum have any Muslim members?

Why is that there are x billion Muslims in the world and none of them want to talk about politics to anyone other than talking with other Muslims about the implementation of sharia law?

Good point! One single Islamic scholar would be useful. All I take from reading this is that Islam must be opposed as it is a religion but opposing it is xenophobic :)

[Dimentio]

Well why not enlighten us with the ultimate definition of fascism.

I have noticed most here have trashed the comparison between Islam by refuting that the definition of fascism is wrong

So

Here are a few more attempts to define fascism

#1

Michael Mann is an historical sociologist and Professor of Sociology at UCLA. In his book Fascists (Cambridge University Press, 2004) he provides the following definition:

“Fascism is the pursuit of a transcendent and cleansing nation-statism through paramilitarism.” (Mann, op. cit., p. 13)

Definition of terms:

· Transcendence: Belief that the state (ummah/kaliphate) can transcend social conflict and blend all social classes into a harmonious whole. Belief in the power of political ideology (islam)to transcend human nature and produce a better world.

· Cleansing (ethnic): Favoring one or more ethnic or racial groups (religious) over others, either by granting special privileges or imposing disabilities; deportation of ethnic minorities, or worse.

· Cleansing (political): Silencing the political (religious) opposition so that the transcendent aims of fascism can be realized. Restricting the freedom of speech, outlawing opposition parties, imprisoning political opponents (or worse) and indoctrinating youth in fascist principles.

· Statism (sharia) Promoting a high degree of state (ummah/kaliphate) intervention in personal, social, or economic matters. Belief that the state (ummah/kaliphate) can accomplish anything.

· Nationalism (islam) Belief in the inherent unity of a population with distinct linguistic, physical, or cultural (religious) characteristics and its identification with a nation-state (islamic-state). Belief that the ummah/kaliphate) nation( possesses special attributes that make it superior to other nations in some or all ways.

· Paramilitarism (muhjadeen/jihadis) "Grass roots", populist squadrism (muhjadeen/jihadis) aimed at coercing opponents and obtaining popular approbation by acting as a supplementary police force (mutaween/vice police)

#2

Robert Paxton is an American historian and emeritus professor of history at Columbia University. In his book The Anatomy of Fascism (Alfred A. Knopf, 2004) he develops the following definition:

“Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a massed-based party of committed nationalist militants (muhjadeen/jihadis) working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites (mullahs/clerics), abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external explansion.”

By changing terms like that, you could still also "prove" that fascism and marxism are the same, or that all ideologies for that matter are fascist.

[poppynogood]

BTW, it has been proven in Britain, by a court of law ruling that it is not racist to call islam evil, so please refrain from calling me a racist..okay, so this fellow here considers himself a revolutionary leftist and at the same time, he thinks British legislative system is a completely valid authority and we have no reason to question its definition of racism?Well quite frankly it isn't racism to attack a religious ideology, on that basis a lot of atheists would be racists wouldn't they? It's not racist to attack/criticise the religious belief system/ideology- what is racist is to attack a "race" or group of people on the basis of ethnicity. With religion it gets complicated but I don't think we need a British court to tell us the difference either.


Good call, I agree, we don't need a British court to tell us the difference either, any one with the slightest trace of intelligence should be able that an ideology is not human let alone being a race

A good revolutionary leftist should at least lend an ear to Sun Tzu's The Art of War and take note of his famous rule "Know your enemy"
which sadly most revolutionary leftists in America and western Europe fail to do where it concerns islam

As an AA ( Aspiring Anarchist ) living in a predominately islamic nation islam is a real threat to anarchists, communists and atheists.

How many of you know that The Communist Party of Indonesia (PKI) was the largest non-ruling communist party in the world prior to being crushed in 1965 and banned the following year

Time presented the following account on December 17, 1966 :

Communists, red sympathizers and their families are being massacred by the thousands. Backlands army units are reported to have executed thousands of communists after interrogation in remote jails. Armed with wide-bladed knives called parangs, Moslem bands crept at night into the homes of communists, killing entire families and burying their bodies in shallow graves. The murder campaign became so brazen in parts of rural East Java, that Moslem bands placed the heads of victims on poles and paraded them through villages. The killings have been on such a scale that the disposal of the corpses has created a serious sanitation problem in East Java and Northern Sumatra where the humid air bears the reek of decaying flesh. Travelers from those areas tell of small rivers and streams that have been literally clogged with bodies.


The issue here is that a lot of people use attacking Islam as a cover for (perhaps) attacking various minority groups who are Muslims- EDL perhaps? However, in the case of the Indonesian member here I don't think he is doing that. I think he's (justifiably) upset about what's going on Indonesia and in this specific case it's Islamic fanaticism that is one of the major issues

You bet I am upset, not so much as to what has happened, and is happening in the present, I am upset with the western revolutionary leftists refusal to see what islam is all about.

[Crimson Commissar]

You bet I am upset, not so much as to what has happened, and is happening in the present, I am upset with the western revolutionary leftists refusal to see what islam is all about.
I am too, and I'm a western leftist myself. Leftists in the west seem to think we should ally with muslims, some have even said that we should form alliances with islamic EXTREMISTS. The very same people who would probably burn us alive and piss on our corpses for going against the traditions of Islam. It's fucking insane. I don't think any muslims are seriously going to be able to take over the west like most of the right-wing extremists are saying, but within predominately muslim countries, Islam is a SERIOUS threat.

[Sam_b]

Leftists in the west seem to think we should ally with muslims

Why can't Muslims also be leftists?


we should form alliances with islamic EXTREMISTS

You're like a stuck record, aren't you? Yet again with the big bad ol' EXTREMISTS. Why don't you actually answer my question from a previous thread, that you have so far ignored:

"Yet again with the words that mean nothing whatsoever. 'extremists' 'fundamentalists' and whatnot. The thing is, you don't actually know a difference, do you? Every scope of Islam is completely homogenised. The Iranian government and Hamas are both these 'extremists' yet you grasp absolutely no distinctions and differentiating features, and this shows the pitfalls of your one-line prophesies."

So, in short, why is Islam politically and socially homogenised for you? Is it some kind of convenience? Do you see why this impacts on theory?


----
Just for fun, by the way, I changed one word in your post to another:


I am too, and I'm a western leftist myself. Leftists in the west seem to think we should ally with Jews, some have even said that we should form alliances with Jewish EXTREMISTS. The very same people who would probably burn us alive and piss on our corpses for going against the traditions of Judaism. It's fucking insane. I don't think any Jews are seriously going to be able to take over the west like most of the right-wing extremists are saying, but within predominately muslim countries, Judaism is a SERIOUS threat.

Now the shitstorm would erupt if this is what you actually said, but unfortunately because it's "The Muslims"(trade mark) then it's almost got to the stage of being socially acceptable. This is scaremongering and apologism for the rising Islamohpbia in Britain and elsewhere, and in a very Red Saxon like mentality, goes against some of the most oppressed and scapegoated people in the UK. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

[poppynogood]

No its not racism, but what is bigoted is when you lump all people of a certain faith together without actually understanding what they actually believe in.

I think that is just as bad as racism.

Who's lumping people together, nobody here from what I can see, but I think I see what you are getting at.

It is not bigotry to criticize islam, especially when you live in an islamic nation and have first hand knowledge.

That my friend is not bigotry or racism, it is revolutionary in its true meaning



Is Christianity and Jewdeism an ideology too???

Christianity is a religion,,, as for Jewdeism I do not know, is it a typo or a sneaky anti-semitic jibe on your part. Oh dear, Oh dear the mask slips




Women HAVE to wear robes and scarves, homosexuals can be EXECUTED if caught in public with another man, saying any slander to their deity can land you missing a limb, or dead even.
Those are specific laws of specific countries,

Yes thats right, and the laws of those countries is based on sharia

Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death." (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one's wife).

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver." a while back sodomy laws in America put you in prison, now I don't go and say Christianity is fascist.

There are more but I am arsed if I am going to find them now


a while back sodomy laws in America put you in prison, now I don't go and say Christianity is fascist

Christianity was founded on the teaching of Jesus, and he did not mention death for gays, so you would have no justification to call Christianity is fascist

[Sosa]

All religions are serious threats to humanity.

[Sam_b]

Great post there champ, convincing argument.

[Sosa]

Great post there champ, convincing argument.

Not meant to convince anyone. Just a statement...if I am allowed to make one

[Sam_b]

It's a one-liner that adds nothing to the argument, and which is even more useless with no analysis into why it is a 'serious threat to humanity': which in a time oh high imperialism and cuts to jobs and public services, screams complete bullshit.

[poppynogood]

In the United Kingdom various groups of sinister racist bastards such as the BNP and the EDL emphasise the difference in culture between "indigenous" (i.e white) brits and immigrants. One particularly effective way they try to emphasise these differences is by pointing at islam, quite often they'll adopt rhetoric like the EDL use but it always has the undercurrents of anti-immigrant feeling.

Surely there are laws in Britain against racism so if these groups are racist why are they not banned.

If these group are solely against Islam them I do not see that as racism.

Any way you have not given any evidence such as a link to your claim.


يمارس الجنس مع الإسلام

[The Red Next Door]

Shut the fuck up; that the most idiotic bullshit. I have ever heard.

[Sosa]

It's a one-liner that adds nothing to the argument, and which is even more useless with no analysis into why it is a 'serious threat to humanity': which in a time oh high imperialism and cuts to jobs and public services, screams complete bullshit.

So everything posted needs to have analysis? GTFOH

It's a statement, if you don't agree move on.

I stand by my statement: "Religion is a serious threat to humanity"

[Jazzratt]

Surely there are laws in Britain against racism so if these groups are racist why are they not banned. British racism laws don't stretch to materially racist political positions. That's why someone can get bollocked for saying "I hate fucking ragheads" but can get voted into government on a platform that proposes increasing restrictions on immigration despite the fact that the second is a much more damaging position.


If these group are solely against Islam them I do not see that as racism. That's because you're a fucking idiot. In "western" countries the majority of muslims are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants - "criticism of islam" in most of these places is just a little veil people like to draw over their racism against people from muslim countries.


Any way you have not given any evidence such as a link to your claim. I have, on my bookshelf, two volumes of what the BNP considers the best of its journalism. Nearly every headline or story in there is an attack on islam or muslims [Those that aren't are attacks on polish people, but there are none that are attacks on the catholic faith. This might tell you something] this is because attacks on Islam are pretty fucking obvious attacks on a foreign culture rather than serious pieces of theological discourse.

But given that my claim is that "the EDL and similar groups are attacking muslims because they're foreign which is what makes it as much about immigration as religion" the evidence is abundant.



يمارس الجنس مع الإسلام
Why so narrow in scope?

[Reznov]

Your middle sentence is absolutely spot on, the word Fascist has been devalued by it's wrong usage amongst the left.

Aside from that, I don't really think you can say Islam is Fascist, not is it an ideology. It is a part of religion, and should be opposed, on grounds of atheism, as much as any other religion, bearing in mind that we should also oppose those who are against Islam purely on xenophobic grounds.

Just re-read this. It's good.

[poppynogood]

Good point! One single Islamic scholar would be useful. All I take from reading this is that Islam must be opposed as it is a religion but opposing it is xenophobic :)

What make you think he will tell you the truth

Xenophobia is an irrational, deep-rooted fear of or antipathy towards foreigners and nothing to do with islam

Many of us would like to think that Islam is just another religion. That sentiment comes from a good place.

My responsibility as an online commentator is to tell the truth as I see it. And the truth, as I see it, is that Islam is the cause of a great deal of evil in the world today.

What I think about Islam( which I hate) has absolutely nothing to do with what I think about Muslims. , So much so, in fact, that I spent 18 years of my life hanging out with an islamic nation

[Sosa]

Religion hinders social and scientific progress, and the development of any type of peace that may be brewing anywhere on earth.

I do not respect religion or religious beliefs.

[Sam_b]

So everything posted needs to have analysis? GTFOH

Great rationale. Especially as this is a discussion forum.


It's a statement, if you don't agree move on.

A statement you have refused to back up. That says a lot.


Religion hinders social and scientific progress

That'll be the same Islam that pioneered mathematical, medical, astrological and scientific progress in earlier centuries then, yes?

[Weezer]

I'm not sure whether to laugh or to cry over this thread.

[Crimson Commissar]

That'll be the same Islam that pioneered mathematical, medical, astrological and scientific progress in earlier centuries then, yes?
And the same Islam that believes in an all-powerful god and has no evidence whatsoever to support it's claims.

[hatzel]

I'm not sure whether to laugh or to cry over this thread.

Then why not do both? :laugh::crying:

[Dimentio]

Surely there are laws in Britain against racism so if these groups are racist why are they not banned.

If these group are solely against Islam them I do not see that as racism.

Any way you have not given any evidence such as a link to your claim.


يمارس الجنس مع الإسلام

If they were openly racist and advocating murder or extradiction of foreigners, their leaders could be fined or jailed. That is why they are using an insidious method of trying to hate brown people through the hating of a belief system instead.

[Sosa]

That'll be the same Islam that pioneered mathematical, medical, astrological and scientific progress in earlier centuries then, yes?

I wouldn't consider astrology a science.

But yes, overall Religion has hindered scientific and social progress. You gave me one example where science progressed during the Islamic golden age, but there are far more examples of Religion obstructing science and societal progress

[Сталин]

Those are specific laws of specific countries, a while back sodomy laws in America put you in prison, now I don't go and say Christianity is fascist.

No one is FOR those laws, but you are saying thats some sort of Islamic ideology that is one in the same.
Equating it to sodomy isnt the same at all... I too would jail someone who fucks pigs...

[Vampire Lobster]

Equating it to sodomy isnt the same at all... I too would jail someone who fucks pigs...

And why would you do that?

[Sam_b]

And the same Islam that believes in an all-powerful god and has no evidence whatsoever to support it's claims.

I see you're still hiding away from the questions I asked!

[Sam_b]

I wouldn't consider astrology a science.

Apologies, I meant astronomy. I shouldn't have confused the two.

But anyway, why are you refusing to back up your so-called 'statement'?

[Sosa]

Apologies, I meant astronomy. I shouldn't have confused the two.

But anyway, why are you refusing to back up your so-called 'statement'?

The statement doesn't need backing up. Just open a history textbook to see what religion has done to human civilization.

[#FF0000]

The statement doesn't need backing up. Just open a history textbook to see what religion has done to human civilization.

As a guy who's gonna be teaching history next year I'mma tell you that if you think none of that would have happened if not for religion then you need to read a little bit more.

[Sosa]

As a guy who's gonna be teaching history next year I'mma tell you that if you think none of that would have happened if not for religion then you need to read a little bit more.

Science flourished despite of religion not because of religion.

[Dimentio]

Science flourished despite of religion not because of religion.

Ultimately correct.

Islam in itself is a religion which is very well adapted to win political power and install a specific form of social order, but that doesn't mean that all muslims are ideological muslims, and neither that Islam in itself doesn't look different varying on local cultural characteristics, specific schools of Islam, the economic basis and the intensity of the beliefs of the region.

What is making EDL racist is that they claim that there is an islamic invasion of the UK based on higher birth-rates amongst immigrants from muslim countries. That means that muslims aren't seen as individuals, but as a faceless horde of extraterrestial insects who want to gang-rape English women and raise minarets.

Also, as soon as a muslim claims to be against terrorism or whatever the EDL are attacking, the EDL morons would instead claim that they are committing Taqiyya, ultimately meaning that the muslims are what the EDL are deciding them to be.

[#FF0000]

Science flourished despite of religion not because of religion.

That is barely what I'm talking about.

[poppynogood]

That's because you're a fucking idiot. In "western" countries the majority of muslims are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants - "criticism of islam" in most of these places is just a little veil people like to draw over their racism against people from muslim countries.

Now this begs the question, why is direct at people from moslem countries?

But before we go further, from what little I have read about EDL they are targeting extremists, and the most vocal of these are british born

Anjem Choudary born 1967 in Welling

Hassan Butt born 1980 in luton

Khalid Kelly born 1967 in Dublin

Trevor Brooks born 1976 in Hackney better known as Abu Izzadeen

Yes Abu Izzadeen who a few days ago walked out of Pentonville Prison in London and leapt on a wall to address a crowd of supporters urging a boycott of the Poppy Appeal, claiming anyone wearing one to mark Remembrance Day ‘supported the murder of Muslims’.

Remembrance Day – also known as Poppy Day, Armistice Day (the event it commemorates) or Veterans Day – is a Commonwealth holiday to commemorate the sacrifices of members of the armed forces and of civilians in times of war

Many of those soldiers died fighting nazis and fascists while at the same time nuslims where fighting along with the nazis in the balkans and middle east

Those soldiers gave their live to fight against an ideology many here profess to oppose.

If scum like Abu Izzadeen are pissing on there memories of these soldiers the I fail to see how EDL are nazis to protest against them

[Sosa]

That is barely what I'm talking about.

Forgive me if I misunderstood your post then. Can you clarify?

[#FF0000]

Forgive me if I misunderstood your post then. Can you clarify?

There were political and economic factors behind just about everything people blame on "religion" throughout history. People saying things like the Crusades were purely a result of religion are simplifying things to a ludicrous extent.

[Sosa]

There were political and economic factors behind just about everything people blame on "religion" throughout history. People saying things like the Crusades were purely a result of religion are simplifying things to a ludicrous extent.

Absolutely, I agree that there were other factors involved. At the same time you cannot minimize the role religion has played in the regression of society. When the Pope condemns condom use in Africa (where it is probably needed the most), is this a political or economical decision...or a religious one?

[#FF0000]

Absolutely, I agree that there were other factors involved. At the same time you cannot minimize the role religion has played in the regression of society. When the Pope condemns condom use in Africa (where it is probably needed the most), is this a political or economical decision...or a religious one?

It certainly doesn't help but at the same time it has very little to do with why the AIDS problem is so massive.

[Rafiq]

PLEASE tell me the Author of this forum is joking, PLEASE.

Seriously, FUCK you.


You are so stupid it makes me angry.

Since when to American fuck puppet "Muslim" country's represent Islam? Are you retarded? I can name you a bunch of Fucked up East Asian and Latin American countries that fall under your list, no thanks to their religion.

You fail.

LOL "ISLAM IS FASCIST BECAUSE MUSLIM COUNTRIES DONT HAVE ELECTIONS!!!"

Are you completely fucked up in the head?

[Rafiq]

Many of those soldiers died fighting nazis and fascists while at the same time nuslims where fighting along with the nazis in the balkans and middle east



Go fuck yourself, you piece of horse shit.

Christians and even some Jews fought for the Nazis some how, fucking retard.

PLUS, WAY MORE MUSLIMS DIED FIGHTING FOR THE ALLIES IN INDIA, AND DON'T FORGET THE COUNTLESS NUMBERS OF MUSLIM PARTISANS WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES TO HIDE JEWS FROM THE NAZI'S!

You are stupid beyond belief. Middle East? WHAT ABOUT THE COUNTLESS NORTH AFRICAN MUSLIMS DEAD BECAUSE THEY FOUGHT AGAINST THE NAZI'S?

You Take ONE little minority of Muslims who fought for Nazi's, and like the piece of shit you are, you say, "The Muslims were fighting for Nazi's!".

Why does that represent the Muslims, because you said so? FUCK YOU.

[Dimentio]

Now this begs the question, why is direct at people from moslem countries?

But before we go further, from what little I have read about EDL they are targeting extremists, and the most vocal of these are british born

Anjem Choudary born 1967 in Welling

Hassan Butt born 1980 in luton

Khalid Kelly born 1967 in Dublin

Trevor Brooks born 1976 in Hackney better known as Abu Izzadeen

Yes Abu Izzadeen who a few days ago walked out of Pentonville Prison in London and leapt on a wall to address a crowd of supporters urging a boycott of the Poppy Appeal, claiming anyone wearing one to mark Remembrance Day ‘supported the murder of Muslims’.

Remembrance Day – also known as Poppy Day, Armistice Day (the event it commemorates) or Veterans Day – is a Commonwealth holiday to commemorate the sacrifices of members of the armed forces and of civilians in times of war

Many of those soldiers died fighting nazis and fascists while at the same time nuslims where fighting along with the nazis in the balkans and middle east

Those soldiers gave their live to fight against an ideology many here profess to oppose.

If scum like Abu Izzadeen are pissing on there memories of these soldiers the I fail to see how EDL are nazis to protest against them

The reason why people are scared of muslims is not because any "plan" to take over the west, but because muslims have darker skin pigmentation. The reason why people don't attack blacks or Jews is because it is politically impossible to root up a support of that due to stigmatisation of racism.

[Sosa]

It certainly doesn't help but at the same time it has very little to do with why the AIDS problem is so massive.

No, it doesn't help, if anything it only exacerbates (?) the problem. In fact he could be responsible for millions of deaths because of this religious dogma. "AIDS are bad but Condoms are worse", this ideology is completely moronic. I'm not trying to say that Religion is the only factor, but it is a major one.

Anyways, I don't want to derail the thread. I'll comment elsewhere