Why the Left is pro-nationalism, as long as it's anti-western.

[Red Saxon]

Simply put, the global Left cannot make up it's own mind. While demonizing Israel, it blatantly disregards the massive human rights violations going on within the Palestinian Authority itself and the Arab countries surrounding Israel.

I think this is the greatest detriment to the Left because it's so obviously double-faced.

The Left claims to cling tight to Democracy, Women's rights, Gay rights, and, Worker's rights.

Yet it is Israel who is the only functioning Democracy in the Middle East (Israeli Arabs can still vote), the first country to allow women to serve in it's military years before any other western countries, the only country in the area where homosexuals aren't persecuted by the government (to the point where Tel Aviv has been come to be known as the gay capital of the ME), and where more Socialist governments have run the country than any other.

Israel is blasted while the countries surrounding it are given a free pass on the idea of cultural relativism.

It is mind boggling to me that so many in the Left are vehemently Anti-Nationalist, yet adore the nationalism of the Soviet Union, Palestine, Cuba, North Korea, Mao's China, etc. This is wrong. This is completely wrong. You're playing favorites with an idea you should be completely against.

I'm still a Socialist, whatever name you want to call me below.

[Widerstand]

It's because Anti-Imperialism is really just another form of nationalist, black-and-white thinking. That being said, a "functioning democracy" isn't exactly a good thing.

[ComradeMan]

I can see this thread opening up a whole can of worms.

I don't think the left should support nationalist movements but at the same time when a people are being oppressed by another group it is difficult to stand by and say nothing too.

I do think some nationalist groups have been cynical in the past and hijacked the whole left thing to garner support until they got in power and then abandoned leftist ideology in all but name once they were in power. This has caused great damage to the left in terms of PR if you like and it surprises me that some people adamantly cling on to the belief that there is anything genuinely socialist in these groups' or people's causes! A couple of names like Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe and so on come to mind.

[Revolution starts with U]

Just because you are against one side, doesn't mean you support the other. The US and the Taliban can both kiss my ass. Israel, Palestine, India, the US, they all suck; they're all murderers.
Just because we go after the big guy doesn't mean we support his enemy. We support the people's liberating themselves from oppression, in all its forms.
Oh ya, and Muck Fichigain.:thumbup1:

[ComradeMan]

Just because you are against one side, doesn't mean you support the other. The US and the Taliban can both kiss my ass. Israel, Palestine, India, the US, they all suck; they're all murderers.
Just because we go after the big guy doesn't mean we support his enemy. We support the people's liberating themselves from oppression, in all its forms.
Oh ya, and Muck Fichigain.:thumbup1:

What I have been saying for a long time! I agree.

Muck Fichigain? :confused:

[Revolution starts with U]

You'll figure it out. It's an Ohio thing.

[PoliticalNightmare]

Yet it is Israel who is the only functioning Democracy in the Middle East (Israeli Arabs can still vote), the first country to allow women to serve in it's military years before any other western countries, the only country in the area where homosexuals aren't persecuted by the government (to the point where Tel Aviv has been come to be known as the gay capital of the ME), and where more Socialist governments have run the country than any other.

Perhaps but this doesn't give the right for Israel to start "spreading its democracy" around to other countries through warfare just as it doesn't give the US and the UK the right to start "spreading their democracy" to Iraq and Afgahnistan. We may be anti-nationalism, "pro-democracy" (well I'm not - I support free association), pro-rights, etc. but that doesn't mean we're necessarily pro-imperialism. As for Israel coming under threat from Palestine, I hardly believe this to really be the case: their military force is much bigger and they have the power to nuke them if they want.

If they really want to spread goodness to neighbouring countries then they should do so by funding workers' movements, parties that advocate democracy, etc. cut trade links with countries they oppose the most. I'm sure it'd be a lot cheaper than what they're trying to do at the moment.

[Crimson Commissar]

While I absolutely despise Israel, I do hate every other piece of shit Islamic theocracy in the Middle-east just as much. Nationalism and theocracy are bad no matter what form it is in. Just because Islamic extremists are opposing Israel, doesn't mean we should side with them.

[RGacky3]

Yet it is Israel who is the only functioning Democracy in the Middle East (Israeli Arabs can still vote), the first country to allow women to serve in it's military years before any other western countries, the only country in the area where homosexuals aren't persecuted by the government (to the point where Tel Aviv has been come to be known as the gay capital of the ME), and where more Socialist governments have run the country than any other.


Yeah, and you know what, internally Isreal does a pretty good job, I praise the Kibbutz all the time, but so what? What they do to the palestinians is nothing short of apartied.

I love that free speach is defended in the US, but that does'nt erase all they do.


While demonizing Israel, it blatantly disregards the massive human rights violations going on within the Palestinian Authority itself and the Arab countries surrounding Israel.



The Palestinian authority has pretty much no real power unless its allowed by Isreal, plus, what Palestinian authority? Which one?


Israel is blasted while the countries surrounding it are given a free pass on the idea of cultural relativism.


No they don't, we criticize Suadi Arabia, Iran, and so on ALL the time, now we don't say they are occupying and oppressing a foreign peoples, because they arn't, Isreal is.

Plus for those in the west, especially the US, Isreal is the country that their government has a say over, the US can at ANY MOMENT stop the occupation, but they don't, the US can't stop sharia law, or fix the Iran elections, without an invasion.


It is mind boggling to me that so many in the Left are vehemently Anti-Nationalist, yet adore the nationalism of the Soviet Union, Palestine, Cuba, North Korea, Mao's China, etc. This is wrong. This is completely wrong. You're playing favorites with an idea you should be completely against.


No we dont ....

We support Palestine in their fight to stop getting oppressed.

[#FF0000]

Yet it is Israel who is the only functioning Democracy in the Middle East (Israeli Arabs can still vote), the first country to allow women to serve in it's military years before any other western countries, the only country in the area where homosexuals aren't persecuted by the government (to the point where Tel Aviv has been come to be known as the gay capital of the ME), and where more Socialist governments have run the country than any other.

Oh okay I guess it's okay to butcher people with no political power in the interests of western capital then.

[#FF0000]

No they don't, we criticize Suadi Arabia, Iran, and so on ALL the time, now we don't say they are occupying and oppressing a foreign peoples, because they arn't, Isreal is.
No they don't, we criticize Suadi Arabia, Iran, and so on ALL the time, now we don't say they are occupying and oppressing a foreign peoples, because they arn't, Isreal is.
No they don't, we criticize Suadi Arabia, Iran, and so on ALL the time, now we don't say they are occupying and oppressing a foreign peoples, because they arn't, Isreal is.
No they don't, we criticize Suadi Arabia, Iran, and so on ALL the time, now we don't say they are occupying and oppressing a foreign peoples, because they arn't, Isreal is.
No they don't, we criticize Suadi Arabia, Iran, and so on ALL the time, now we don't say they are occupying and oppressing a foreign peoples, because they arn't, Isreal is.
.

[#FF0000]

Just because Islamic extremists are opposing Israel, doesn't mean we should side with them.

What about the PFLP

[Zanthorus]

it is Israel...where more Socialist governments have run the country than any other.

You're either trolling, stupid, or both.

[Crimson Commissar]

What about the PFLP
Well, they're a socialist group. They may have muslim members, but it's not like they fully support Islam and all of it's reactionary teachings, like many other palestinian revolutionary groups do.

[Sam_b]

Aaah, and after his extended hiatus (which, unfortunately, I had assumed change dinto going into a huff and leaving for good), Red Saxon is back with his one-trick-pony zionist claptrap. Fortunately, most decent Revleft members see this for what it is - his complete opportunism of standing by Israel's war crimes and oppression of the Palestinian people (and of course their neighbours in Lebanon) under the guise of 'equal harm' to supposedly 'prove' his grand attacks against those who support anti-imperialism. Let's not forget these gems he said on plans to strip over a million of citizenship:


Yeah, they're going to strip them of their Israeli citizenship, leaving them to achieve Palestinian citizenship. Why aren't you happy about this?

Or, perhaps, his astute analysis of Gaza, recognised as one of the most densely-populated areas of the world:


This is the same Hammas that hides behind school and hospitals, only to have Israel come in and get everyone pissed.

From this it is clear where his loyalties lie - with the state and IDF deathsquads - and he has the nerve to proclaim himself a leftist. But by hisd logic, it's fine! Because Israel is a DEMOCRACY! Where Arab woman can apparently VOTE! But let's not get in the way of the swathes of literature coming out of recent years about Arab disenfranchisement of elections and political participation. All in a day's work for our resident Likhud spokesperson.

As usual as well, we have one of our slightly more prominant Islamophobes, Crimson Commissar, with his ground-quaking analysis which got him into a bit of trouble the last time he talked about these so-called 'Islamic Extremists'. Ones that, by the use of his language, is still a conveniant catch-all term to him to describe these Muslims he simply doesn't like. Naturally any rational person would see the difference between, say, Al Quaeda, suicide bombers in Palestine, Hamas and the Iranian government, but no! They are all the same! Under the banner of 'Islamic Extremism' these people are homogenised, allowing for weak and dangerous theory which stops us from fully understanding the situation.

Seriously, both of these things are appalling charades and genuine leftists should see straight through them: while continuing to be uncompromising in their support for the Palestinian people's struggle for freedom.

[Sam_b]

Excellent timing! Just after my post we get another shining pearl of wisdom. This one really takes the biscuit:


They may have muslim members, but it's not like they fully support Islam and all of it's reactionary teachings

I would expect nothing less from someone who equates support for Palestinian people's armed resistance by the vehicle they choose (asnd of course, the effective one) as "siding with Islamic extremism".

[Crimson Commissar]

I would expect nothing less from someone who equates support for Palestinian people's armed resistance by the vehicle they choose (asnd of course, the effective one) as "siding with Islamic extremism".
And you seem to believe not supporting an organisation of devout islamic fundamentalists equates to support for Zionism.

[Dean]

Simply put, the global Left cannot make up it's own mind. While demonizing Israel, it blatantly disregards the massive human rights violations going on within the Palestinian Authority itself and the Arab countries surrounding Israel.

I think this is the greatest detriment to the Left because it's so obviously double-faced.

The Left claims to cling tight to Democracy, Women's rights, Gay rights, and, Worker's rights.

Yet it is Israel who is the only functioning Democracy in the Middle East (Israeli Arabs can still vote), the first country to allow women to serve in it's military years before any other western countries, the only country in the area where homosexuals aren't persecuted by the government (to the point where Tel Aviv has been come to be known as the gay capital of the ME), and where more Socialist governments have run the country than any other.

Israel is blasted while the countries surrounding it are given a free pass on the idea of cultural relativism.

It is mind boggling to me that so many in the Left are vehemently Anti-Nationalist, yet adore the nationalism of the Soviet Union, Palestine, Cuba, North Korea, Mao's China, etc. This is wrong. This is completely wrong. You're playing favorites with an idea you should be completely against.

I'm still a Socialist, whatever name you want to call me below.

Ah pretty sure you're also a nationalist of some stripe so kindly fuck off with your cheap rhetoric. This is a tired debate and there are obvious answers.

[Sam_b]

Yet again with the words that mean nothing whatsoever. 'extremists' 'fundamentalists' and whatnot. The thing is, you don't actually know a difference, do you? Every scope of Islam is completely homogenised. The Iranian government and Hamas are both these 'extremists' yet you grasp absolutely no distinctions and differentiating features, and this shows the pitfalls of your one-line prophesies.

If you actually spend as much energy (as you seem to do) fighting and organising for socialism as you do being ther 'militant anti-theist' one-trick-pony bigot, hell the left might actually get somewhere. You're a good example of someone who has completely ignored or misread the Marxist approach to religion.

[Crimson Commissar]

Yet again with the words that mean nothing whatsoever. 'extremists' 'fundamentalists' and whatnot. The thing is, you don't actually know a difference, do you? Every scope of Islam is completely homogenised. The Iranian government and Hamas are both these 'extremists' yet you grasp absolutely no distinctions and differentiating features, and this shows the pitfalls of your one-line prophesies.

If you actually spend as much energy (as you seem to do) fighting and organising for socialism as you do being ther 'militant anti-theist' one-trick-pony bigot, hell the left might actually get somewhere. You're a good example of someone who has completely ignored or misread the Marxist approach to religion.
I don't have to follow every bit of marxism as if it was some kind of cult. I have formed my own ideas about religion. Plus, I would like to organise socialism, but unfortunately I'm not even an adult yet, and with capitalist society being as ageist as it is now I wouldn't get anything done.

[Sam_b]

I don't have to follow every bit of marxism as if it was some kind of cult

You don't know anything about Marx and religion, do you?


Plus, I would like to organise socialism, but unfortunately I'm not even an adult yet, and with capitalist society being as ageist as it is now I wouldn't get anything done.

I joined the SSP at 14 and during my 'non-adult' years was North-East of Scotland regional organiser for the youth section; and helped organise the janitorial staff at my school when they went on strike action. You're never too young, especially in a major city like you are.

But you didn't address the crux of the post in the slightest:


Yet again with the words that mean nothing whatsoever. 'extremists' 'fundamentalists' and whatnot. The thing is, you don't actually know a difference, do you? Every scope of Islam is completely homogenised. The Iranian government and Hamas are both these 'extremists' yet you grasp absolutely no distinctions and differentiating features, and this shows the pitfalls of your one-line prophesies.

[Barry Lyndon]

RedSaxon, why aren't you banned for being a Zionist douchebag?

There is also a considerable difference between supporting the Palestinian people's just struggle to be free of Israeli occupation and cheering on nationalism.

It's very clear that you attack Third World nationalism as a Left cover for your own white chauvinist imperialist nationalism.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Why the Left is pro-nationalism, as long as it's anti-western.

What about Ireland and Basque?

[graffic]

Firstly, Marxism is effectively a dead ideology. Western intellectuals apologising for and sometimes supporting third world national/religious struggles is a testament to this, as-well as many other issues.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Firstly, Marxism is effectively a dead ideology.

You really thought that you would convince someone by oppening your post with that sentence.

[ComradeMan]

Firstly, Marxism is effectively a dead ideology. Western intellectuals apologising for and sometimes supporting third world national/religious struggles is a testament to this, as-well as many other issues.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/22/Logo_Rifondazione_2006.png/150px-Logo_Rifondazione_2006.png (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/File:Logo_Rifondazione_2006.png)

These people seem pretty ALIVE!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!! :laugh::laugh:

[Barry Lyndon]

Firstly, Marxism is effectively a dead ideology. Western intellectuals apologising for and sometimes supporting third world national/religious struggles is a testament to this, as-well as many other issues.

Yeah, whatever, Chris "last intellectual defender of the Iraq war standing" Hitchens.

[Red Saxon]

Aaah, and after his extended hiatus (which, unfortunately, I had assumed change dinto going into a huff and leaving for good), Red Saxon is back with his one-trick-pony zionist claptrap.
Are you an idiot? I can at any time come back on here via Tor or on any of the other varieties of anonymity.

:laugh:

[Sam_b]

Are you an idiot? I can at any time come back on here via Tor or on any of the other varieties of anonymity.

Irrelevant. All I was saying is I thought you left for good, not any calls for a ban.

[Dimentio]

Simply put, the global Left cannot make up it's own mind. While demonizing Israel, it blatantly disregards the massive human rights violations going on within the Palestinian Authority itself and the Arab countries surrounding Israel.

I think this is the greatest detriment to the Left because it's so obviously double-faced.

The Left claims to cling tight to Democracy, Women's rights, Gay rights, and, Worker's rights.

Yet it is Israel who is the only functioning Democracy in the Middle East (Israeli Arabs can still vote), the first country to allow women to serve in it's military years before any other western countries, the only country in the area where homosexuals aren't persecuted by the government (to the point where Tel Aviv has been come to be known as the gay capital of the ME), and where more Socialist governments have run the country than any other.

Israel is blasted while the countries surrounding it are given a free pass on the idea of cultural relativism.

It is mind boggling to me that so many in the Left are vehemently Anti-Nationalist, yet adore the nationalism of the Soviet Union, Palestine, Cuba, North Korea, Mao's China, etc. This is wrong. This is completely wrong. You're playing favorites with an idea you should be completely against.

I'm still a Socialist, whatever name you want to call me below.

Because we hate the white race...

Wake up. There is no homogenous left.

[Sam_b]

Saying there is a homogenous left is as stupid as saying there is such a thing as a homogenous 'fundamentalist Islam'.

Oh wait a minute

[Patchd]

Simply put, the global Left cannot make up it's own mind. While demonizing Israel, it blatantly disregards the massive human rights violations going on within the Palestinian Authority itself and the Arab countries surrounding Israel.
What is this 'Left' you speak of and how have they not criticised anti-worker actions of the Palestinian authorities and 'liberation' groups?

[Widerstand]

What is this 'Left' you speak of and how have they not criticised anti-worker actions of the Palestinian authorities and 'liberation' groups?

Show me such critique then.