Taoism

[John "Eh" MacDonald]

Do you see Taoism as a religion or a philosophy?

Myself, I see it as a philosophy because it is not ordering you to live your life in any such way, The Way just guides you in the direction to true happiness.

Also I notice that Taoism has a lot of characteristics of communism, do you agree?

How many of you recognize yourself as a Taoist?

[lines]

I dont know much about taoism, what does it have in common with communism?

[John "Eh" MacDonald]

Well its 50/50 reformist, but nevertheless it still has pretty good lessons to remind me...

to stop comparing myself to others.

to decrease my wants.

to indulge myself every now and then.

to follow my own nature, and not the trappings of life.

that heaven is found on earth.

[Rêve Rouge]

Ya, I've noticed that about Taoism too. Keep in mind though, there are different variations of Taoism. Some more philosophical oriented, others more religious based with deities such as the Jade Emperor.

[Kléber]

Philosophical Daoism (daojiao) is dialectical mysticism originating in the 6th-3rd Cent. BCE, principal texts are by the "authors" Laozi, Zhuangzi and Liezi, all of which are available online in multiple translations if you google. Religious Daoism (daojia), based on the worship of demigods and/or combination with other religions (Confucianism, Buddhism, and local popular religions), emerged shortly after in the 3rd-1st Cent. BCE in many different forms and is what is usually referred to when using the term Daoism today. Some religious Daoists led peasant rebellions and set up theocratic dictatorships in the ancient period, this was the origin of the Yellow Turban and Five Pecks of Rice movements. There were also Daoist hedonist hermits who drank a lot and wrote poetry. Often when people talk about Daoism they are really talking about Neo-Confucianism, a state-sponsored syncretic combination of Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism dating to the Song Dynasty.

[blake 3:17]

I'd consider myself something of a Taoist. Chuang Tzu rocks!

I think Taoism (at least in some forms) is closer to anarchism than communism. I'd see some parallels between Chuang Tzu and Deleuze and Guattari -- a sense of irony, a destabilization of conventional ways of thinking, humour, fluidity and chaos as primal.

D n G take on the major trends in Western philosophy as forms of State philosophy -- what to know in order to dominate. Certainly trends within Taoism are anti-Statist and anti-authoritarian.

[Sosa]

I would consider more of a philosophical posture than a religion. I have the Tao Te Ching and try to apply many of its teachings to my daily life.

[MellowViper]

I think a taoist perspective is important in liberating the individual from greed.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Yet another source of opiates...:(

[RedStarOverChina]

First of all, Daoism as a religion has absolutely nothing to do with Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, etc. Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, like most educated, aristocratic Chinese thinkers of their time, were by and large, secular.

It wasn't until hundreds of years later during the Han Dynasty, that a charlatan by the name of Zhang Daoling decided to combine traditional Chinese witchcraft with ancient Daoist terminology. He got quite a thing going, basically started up as a cult leader to become the head of a mini-state. This was the origin of modern Daoism.

The original Daoism emerged as a pacifist, primitivist ideology in a China devastated by increasingly brutal warfares spanning centries. It was very similar to the emergence of European pacifists after WWI.

Like the Western pacifists who lost faith in Western modernity, the ancient Daoists lost faith in the Chinese civilization and the advance technology that it brought.

Because from what they've seen, all the teachings of Chinese "holymen" has only led to violence, endless warfare, treachery and moral decadence. Technology only made men lazy. So they basically "gave up" on the Chinese civilization, and aimed to return to a more primitive, idealised China. That's what they were about.



The religion of Daoism runs contrary to what Lao Tzu taught (not that Lao Tzu was in particular good, either) in that the philosophy of Daoism is about NOT to struggle against nature (as it would be a futile struggle), whereas the religion of Daoism often seeks to alter the course of nature by ways of witchcraft and alchemy.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

RSOC:


First of all, Daoism as a religion has absolutely nothing to do with Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, etc. Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, like most educated, aristocratic Chinese thinkers of their time, were by and large, secular.

Maybe so, but, just like western 'thinkers', they were quite happy to concoct dogmatic and a priori systems of their own -- providing disciples with a 'secular' source of opiates, if you will.

[RedStarOverChina]

RSOC:



Maybe so, but, just like western 'thinkers', they were quite happy to concoct dogmatic and a priori systems of their own -- providing disciples with a 'secular' source of opiates, if you will.
Unfortunately, you did not read my post so you had no idea where I was going with it.

But just calling it opiate without offering any serious critique does not help anybody. I'm all for ruthlessly attacking religion and reactionary ideologies, but like a famous Chinese writer once said, cursing is not a method of political struggle.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

RSOC:


Unfortunately, you did not read my post so you had no idea where I was going with it.

I did read it and felt that that point needed making, since you did not.


But just calling it opiate without offering any serious critique does not help anybody. I'm all for ruthlessly attacking religion and reactionary ideologies, but like a famous Chinese writer once said, cursing is not a method of political struggle.

Of course it isn't, but I spend enough time here criticising that other opiate, Dialectical Materialism. So, I think I can let others take up the task of criticising this ancient nostrum.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

And, how come you are 'banned'?

[RedStarOverChina]

And, how come you are 'banned'?If I told you I'd have to kill you.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

RSOC:


If I told you I'd have to kill you.

Seems worth it...

[blake 3:17]

Another source of yet more opiates...

We are in the Eternal Return. What is wrong with opiates?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Blake:


What is wrong with opiates?

Nothing if you prefer fantasy to reality.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

We are in the Eternal Return. What is wrong with opiates?

What the dick is the Eternal Return?

[Nuvem]

I'm a former philosophical Taoist. I gave up the philosophy because of its insistence upon inaction.


Be Content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you.


By letting it go it all gets done. The world is won by those who let it go. But when you try and try. The world is beyond the winning.


He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know.


In the world there is nothing more submissive and weak than water. Yet for attacking that which is hard and strong nothing can surpass it.



Life is a series of natural and spontaneous changes. Don't resist them - that only creates sorrow. Let reality be reality. Let things flow naturally forward in whatever way they like.


Violence, even well intentioned, always rebounds upon oneself.

There are more quotes from Lao Tzu which reinforce this recurring and powerful facet of Taoism. A true Taoist, one who actually maintains a lifestyle in accordance with Lao Tzu's teachings and philosophy, cannot be a revolutionary- a pacifist dreamer at best.

Taoism, like all philosophies, must be picked apart and the useful bits taken- the rest discarded.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Thanks for that NuVem, but, other than moralistic and lifestyle truisms, is there anything at all useful in any philosophy?

[Milk Sheikh]

Taoism is not about inaction, as someone mentioned earlier; it's about spontaneous action, which may appear like inaction to most people. It is essentially about inner life, unlike most other religions which have their institutions and priests and a million things influencing politics and society, so it's no threat to revolutionary work.

[StockholmSyndrome]

We are in the Eternal Return. What is wrong with opiates?

Nietzsche was addicted to opiates. Also, Nietzsche has a lot in common with Taoism.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Taoism is not about inaction, as someone mentioned earlier; it's about spontaneous action, which may appear like inaction to most people. It is essentially about inner life, unlike most other religions which have their institutions and priests and a million things influencing politics and society, so it's no threat to revolutionary work.

The other guy has quotes to support his statement and you have... erm, nothing that I can see.

[Milk Sheikh]

The other guy has quotes to support his statement and you have... erm, nothing that I can see.

It's called Wu Wei in Chinese ... the single most important concept in Taoism. If you read about it, you'll know why people often mistake Wu Wei for inaction.

[Milk Sheikh]

What the dick is the Eternal Return?

Similar to Nietzsche's eternal recurrence.:)

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

This is where you at home can complete the following saying:

"An opiate by any other name is still an...".

[cowslayer]

I might be wrong, but isn't Taoism very closely associated with Confucianism and Legalism, two authoritarian ideals?

This is what I remember from AP World History.

[RedStarOverChina]

I might be wrong, but isn't Taoism very closely associated with Confucianism and Legalism, two authoritarian ideals?

This is what I remember from AP World History.
Actually these ideologies are far apart. Although Confucius admired Lao Tzu and many other Daoists he encountered during his exile, most of those Daoists mocked him mercilessly. Lao Tzu was himself critical of Confucius during their supposed meeting.

Chuang Tzu, a Daoist who came after Lao Tzu during a period when Confucianism was extremely popular would engage extensively in debating with as well as mocking Confucianists.

Legalism was a more brutal form of Fascism, and was opposed by both Daoism and Confucianism. Legalism advocates brutal punishment for disobedience, since Confucianist moralism did not help stopping the chaos of the Warring Stares period. So Legalism values laws and punishment over morality, and duty to the state (ruler) over filial piety and family loyalties.

Basically, none of the ideologies liked each other.

It's called Wu Wei in Chinese ... the single most important concept in Taoism. If you read about it, you'll know why people often mistake Wu Wei for inaction.
While it's true that Wu Wei does not mean total inaction, it's pretty close.

Though Daoists value hard, physical labour, they are opposed to any activity that runs contrary to the Dao, or the nature as they perceive it. That could mean a range of things, like techonological innovations, political revolutions, or even any desire for material wealth.

So yeah, Daoism does encourage inaction in many areas, especially the important ones.


If anyone's interested in ancient Chinese philosophy, then I recommend Mohism, which at one point, was equally popular as Confucianism. It was probably the most progressive and "proletariat" ideology Ancient China had to offer.

[L.A.P.]

Well when it comes to East Asian philososphies that could also be religions on the scale I would say ideas such as Confucianism and Legalism are religions because they don't help you find a method on how to be logical and rational they just tell you what to think with no logic to back it up. Not to mention they are highly authoritarian, but Taoism I would say is more of a philosophy with triats of religion, such as the belief in "mystical" energy running throughout your body is an idea of a religion while yin and yang and balancing yourself is that of a philosophy that has very interesting ideas.

[RedStarOverChina]

Well when it comes to East Asian philososphies that could also be religions on the scale I would say ideas such as Confucianism and Legalism are religions because they don't help you find a method on how to be logical and rational they just tell you what to think with no logic to back it up. Not to mention they are highly authoritarian, but Taoism I would say is more of a philosophy with triats of religion, such as the belief in "mystical" energy running throughout your body is an idea of a religion while yin and yang and balancing yourself is that of a philosophy that has very interesting ideas.
Actually, the realist paradigm of Legalism offers some very strong logic---Unfortunately the logic was used to the ruler's advantage.

While I agree that logic is not Confucius' strong suit, one of his (supposed) students, Gongsun Long, joined the School of Names and became one of the greatest logicians of his time.

Most of Gongsun Long's works have been lost, but of those found, he raised a paradox concerning the logic behind "catagories" that would have Aristotle nodding if he had been listening.

Besides the School of Names and its logic, Mohism was a beacon of rationalism in Ancient China, IMO. One western historian even wrote that Mohism "sketched out what amounts to a complete theory of scientific method", though I think that is only if you look at it from a modern perspective. There are some reactionary aspects of Mohism which wouldn't sit well with this perception.


The concept of Yin and Yang seems to have existed long before Lao Tzu; it was not a specifically Daoist idea. There was a school of thought around the time of Lao Tzu that specifically studied the concept of Yin and Yang, it was called---take a guess---the School of Yin Yang.

It's the same thing with Qi/Chi. The idea evolved overtime, and it was not specific to the School of Dao. In fact, no (philosophical) Daoist text described it, whereas you can find it in Confucianist, Mohist writings as well as text from other schools of thought.


It's down-right unfortunate that Confucianism became the dominant ideology and the stereotypical "East Asian" philosophy. Confucius' competitors had so much more to offer.