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Morpheus
9th August 2003, 03:22
The "Renegade" Kautsky and his Disciple Lenin.
by Jean Barrot

"The three sources of Marxism; the historic work of Marx" is clearly of historical interest. Kautsky was unquestionably the major thinker of the Second International and his party, the German Social Democratic Party, the most powerful. Kautsky, the guardian of orthodoxy, was almost universally regarded as the most knowledgeable expert on the work of Marx and Engels and their privileged interpreter. Kautsky's positions therefore bear witness to a whole era of the working class movement and are worth knowing if only for this. We are concerned here with a central question for the proletarian movement: the relationship between the working class and revolutionary theory. Kautsky's reply to this question formed the theoretical foundation of the practice and organisation of all the parties which made up the Second International. This included the Russian Social Democratic Party, and its Bolshevik fraction, which was an orthodox member until 1914, that is until the collapse of the International in the face of the First World War.

However, the theory expounded by Kautsky in that text did not collapse at the same time as the Second International. Quite the contrary, it survived and equally formed the basis of the Third International through the medium of "Leninism" and its Stalinist and Trotskyist avatars.

Leninism: By-Product of Kautskyism !

Leninism, by-product of Kautskyism! This will startle those who only know Kautsky from the abuse hurled at him by Bolshevism, and in particular Lenin's pamphlet, "The Bankruptcy of the Second International and the Renegade Kautsky", and those who only know about Lenin what is considered good to know about him in the various churches and chapels they frequent.

Yet the very title of Lenin's pamphlet very precisely defines his relationship with Kautsky. If Lenin calls Kautsky a renegade it's clear that he thinks Kautsky was previously a follower of the true faith, of which he now considers himself the only qualified defender. Far from criticising Kautskyism, which he shows himself unable to identify, Lenin is in fact content to reproach his former master-thinker for having betrayed his own teachings. From any point of view Lenin's break was at once late and superficial. Late because Lenin had entertained the deepest illusions about German Social Democracy, and had only understood after the "betrayal" was accomplished. Superficial because Lenin was content to break on the problems of imperialism and the war without going into the underlying causes of the social democratic betrayal of August 1914. These causes were linked to the very nature of those parties and their relations, with capitalist society as much as with the proletariat. These relations must themselves be brought back to the very movement of capital and of the working class. They must be understood as a phase of the development of the proletariat, and not as something open to being changed by the will of a minority, not even of a revolutionary leadership, however aware it might be.

From this stems the present importance of the theory which Kautsky develops in a particularly coherent form in his pamphlet and which constituted the very fabric of his thought throughout his life. Lenin took up this theory and developed it as early as 1900 in "The Immediate Objectives of our Organisation" and then in "What Is To Be Done?" in 1902, in which moreover he quotes Kautsky at length and with great praise. In 1913 Lenin again took up these ideas in " The Three Sources and the Three Component Parts of Marxism" in which he develops the same themes and sometimes uses Kautsky's text word for word.

These ideas rest on a scanty and superficial historical analysis of the relationships of Marx and Engels, to the intellectuals of their time as much as to the working class movement. They can be summarised in a few words, and a couple of quotations will be enough to reveal their substance: "A working class movement that is spontaneous and bereft of any theory rising in the labouring classes against ascendant capitalism, is incapable of accomplishing revolutionary work."

It is also necessary to bring about what Kautsky calls the union of the working class movement and socialism. Now: "Socialist consciousness today (?!) can only arise on the basis of deep scientific knowledge (...) But the bearer of science is not the proletariat but the bourgeois intellectuals; (...) so then socialist consciousness is something brought into the class struggle of the proletariat from outside and not something that arises spontaneously within it." These words of Kautsky's are according to Lenin "profoundly true."

It is clear that this much desired union of the working class movement and socialism could not be brought about in the same way in Germany as in Russia as the conditions were different. But it is important to see that the deep divergence's of Bolshevism in the organisational field did not result from different basic conceptions, but rather solely from the application of the same principles in different social, economic and political situations.

In fact far from ending up in an ever greater union of the working class movement and socialism, social democracy would end up in an ever closer union with capital and the bourgeoisie. As for Bolshevism, after having been like a fish in water in the Russian Revolution ("revolutionaries are in the revolution like water in water") because of the revolution's defeat it would end in all but complete fusion with state capital, administered by a totalitarian bureaucracy.

However Leninism continues to haunt the minds of many revolutionaries of more or less good will who are searching for a recipe capable of success. Persuaded that they are "of the vanguard" because they possess "consciousness", whereas they only possess a false theory, they struggle militantly for a union of those two metaphysical monstrosities, "a spontaneous working class movement, bereft of any theory" and a disembodied "socialist consciousness."

This attitude is simply voluntarist. Now, if as Lenin said "irony and patience are the principal qualities of the revolutionary", "impatience is the principal source of opportunism" (Trotsky). The intellectual, the revolutionary theorist doesn't have to worry about linking up with the masses because if their theory is revolutionary they are already linked to the masses. They don't have to "chose the camp of the proletariat" (it is not Sartre using these terms, it is Lenin) because, properly speaking, they do not have the choice. The theoretical and practical criticism they bear is determined by the relationship they hold with society. They can only free themselves from this passion by surrendering to it (Marx). If they "have the choice" it's because they are no longer revolutionary, and their theoretical criticism is already rotten. The problem of the penetration of revolutionary ideas which they share in the working class milieu is entirely transformed through that milieu.... when the historical conditions, the balance of power between the warring classes, ( principally determined by the autonomised movement of capital) prevents any revolutionary eruption of the proletariat onto the scene of history the intellectual does the same as the worker: what they can. They study, write, make their works known as best as they can, usually quite badly. When he was studying at the British museum, Marx, a product of the historical movement of the proletariat, was linked, if not to the workers, at least to the historical movement of the proletariat. He was no more isolated from the workers than any worker is isolated from the rest. To an extent the conditions of the time limit such relationships to those which capitalism allows.

On the other hand when proletarians form themselves as a class and in one way or another declare war on capital they have no need whatsoever for anyone to bring them KNOWLEDGE before they can do this. Being themselves, in capitalist production relations, nothing but variable capital, it is enough that they want to change their situation in however small a way for them to be directly at the heart of the problem which the intellectual will have some difficulty in reaching. In the class struggle the revolutionary is neither more nor less linked to the proletariat than they were before. But theoretical critique then fuses with practical critique, not because it has been brought in from outside but because they are one and the same thing.

If in recent times the weakness of the intellectual has been to believe that proletarians remain passive because they lack "consciousness"; and if they have come to believe themselves to be "the vanguard" to the point of wanting to lead the proletariat, then they have some bitter disappointments in store.

Yet it is this idea which constitutes the essence of Leninism, as is shown by the ambiguous history of Bolshevism. These ideas were in the end only able to survive because the Russian revolution failed, that is to say because the balance of power, on the international scale, between capital and proletariat, did not allow the latter to carry through its practical and theoretical critique.

The True Role of Bolshevism.

This is what we shall try to demonstrate by analysing, in summary, what happened in Russia and the true role of Bolshevism. In thinking that he saw in Russian revolutionary circles the fruit of "the union of the working class movement and socialism" Lenin was seriously mistaken. The revolutionaries organised in social-democratic groups did not bring any "consciousness" to the proletariat. Of course an exposition or a theoretical article on Marxism was very useful to the workers: its use however was not to give consciousness or the idea of class struggle, but simply to clarify things and provoke further thought. Lenin did not understand this reality. He not only wanted to bring to the working class consciousness of the necessity of socialism in general, he also wanted to give them imperative watchwords explaining what they must do at a specific time. And this was quite normal since Lenin's party alone (as the trustee of class consciousness) was fit to discern the general interest of the working class beyond all its divisions into various strata, to analyse the situation at all times and to formulate appropriate watchwords. Well, the 1905 revolution would have to show the practical inability of the Bolshevik party to direct the working class and reveal the "behindness" of the vanguard party. All historians, even those favourable to the Bolsheviks, recognised that in 1905 the Bolshevik party understood nothing about the Soviets. The appearance of new forms of organisation aroused the distrust of the Bolsheviks: Lenin stated that the Soviets were "neither a working class parliament nor an organ of self-government". The important thing is to see that the Russian workers did not know that they were going to form Soviets. Only a very small minority amongst them knew about the experience of the Paris commune and yet they created an embryonic worker's state, though no-one had educated them. The Kautskyist- Leninist thesis in fact denies the working class all power of original creation when not guided by the party, (as the fusion of the working class movement and socialism). Now you can see that in 1905, to take up a phrase from " Theses on Feuerbach", "the educator himself needs educating".

"The Educators Themselves Need Educating !"

Yet Lenin did accomplish revolutionary work (his position on the war amongst others) as opposed to Kautsky. But in reality Lenin was only revolutionary when he went against his theory of class consciousness. Let's take the case of his activity between February and October 1917. Lenin had worked for more than 15 years (since 1900) to create a vanguard organisation which would realise the union of "socialism" and the "working class movement". He sought to regroup "political leaders" (the "representatives of the vanguard capable of organising and leading the movement".) In 1917, as in 1905, this political leadership, represented by the central committee of the Bolshevik party, showed itself beneath the tasks of the day, and behind the revolutionary activity of the proletariat. All historians, including the Stalinist and Trotskyist ones, show that Lenin had to fight a long and difficult battle against the current in his own organisation to make his ideas triumph. And he was only able to succeed by leaning on the workers of the party, on the true vanguard organised in the factories inside or around social-democratic circles. It will be said that all this would have been impossible without the activity put in over many years by the Bolsheviks, as much on the level of workers' everyday struggles as on that of the defence and propagation of revolutionary ideas. The' great majority of the Bolsheviks, with Lenin in the foreground, did indeed contribute through their unceasing propaganda and agitation to the insurrection of October 1917. As revolutionary militants, they played an effective role: but as the "leadership of the class" or the "conscious vanguard", they were behind the proletariat. The revolution took place against the ideas of "What is to be done?" and to the extent that these ideas were applied (created by an organ directing the working class but separated from it) they showed themselves to be a check and obstacle to the revolution. In 1905 Lenin was behind history because he clung to the ideas of "What is to be done?" In 1917 Lenin took part in the real movement of the Russian masses and in doing this rejected in his practice the concepts developed in "What is to be done?".

If we apply to Kautsky and Lenin the opposite treatment to that which they subjected Marx to, if we link their ideas to the class struggle instead of separating them from it, Kautskyism-Leninism emerges as characteristic of a whole period of the working class movement dominated from the start by the Second International. Having developed and organised as best they could, proletarians found themselves in a contradictory situation from the end of the 19th century. They possessed various organisations whose goal was to make the revolution and at the same time they were incapable of carrying it through because the conditions were not yet ripe. Kautskyism-Leninism was the expression of the solution of this contradiction. By postulating that the proletariat had to go through the detour of scientific consciousness in order to become revolutionary, it authorised the existence of organisations to enclose, direct and control the proletariat.

As we pointed out, Lenin's case is more complex than Kautsky's, to the extent that Lenin was in one part of his life, a revolutionary as opposed to Kautskyism- Leninism. Moreover, the situation of Russia was totally different to that of Germany, which virtually possessed a bourgeois-democratic regime and in which a working class movement existed which was strongly developed and integrated into the system. It was quite the opposite in Russia, where everything was still to be built and there was no question of taking part in bourgeois parliamentary and reformist union activities as these didn't exist. In these conditions Lenin was able to adopt a revolutionary position despite his Kautskyist ideas. We must nevertheless point out that he considered German social-democracy a model until the world war.

In their revised and corrected histories of Leninism, the Stalinists and Trotskyists show us a clear sighted Lenin who understood and denounced the "betrayal" by social democracy and the International before 1914. This is pure myth and one would really have to study the true history of the International to show that not only did Lenin not denounce it but that before the war he under- stood nothing of the phenomenon of social democratic degeneracy.

Before 1914 Lenin even praised the German Social- Democratic party (SPD) for having been able to unite the "working class movement" and "socialism"(cf. "What is to be done?"). Let us just quote these lines taken from the obituary article "August Bebel" (which also contains several error of detail and of substance concerning this model "working class leader", and concerning the history of the Second International).

"The basis of the parliamentary tactics of German (and international) Social-democracy, which doesn't give an inch to the enemy, which doesn't miss the slightest opportunity to obtain some improvement, however small, for the workers, which at the same time shows itself uncompromising on its principles and always aims towards achieving its objectives, the basis of these tactics was established by Bebel..."

Lenin addressed these words of praise to "the parliamentary tactics of German (and international) Social Democracy", "uncompromising its principles" (!) in August 1913! A year later he thought that the issue of Vorwarts ( paper of the German Social-Democratic Party) which announced the vote for war credits by the Social-Democratic deputies, was a fake manufactured by .the German High Command. This reveals the depth of the illusions he had held for a long time, (in fact since 1900 - 1902), in the Second International in general and German social-democracy in particular. (We won't examine the attitude of other revolutionaries, Rosa Luxemburg for example, to these questions. That question would require a detailed study in its own right.)

We have seen how Lenin had in his practice abandoned the ideas of "What Is To Be Done?" in 1917. But the immaturity of the class struggle on a global level and in particular the absence of revolution in Europe, brought the defeat of the Russian Revolution. The Bolsheviks found themselves in power with the task of "governing Russia" (Lenin), of performing the task of the bourgeois revolution which hadn't occurred, that is to say, of actually securing the development of the Russian economy. This development could not be anything but capitalist. The bringing to heel of the working class -- and of opposition in the party -- became an essential objective. Lenin, who had not explicitly rejected "What Is To Be Done?" in 1917, immediately took up again the "Leninist" concepts which alone would allow the "necessary" enclosure of the working class. The Democratic Centralists, the Workers' Opposition, and the Workers' Group were crushed for having denied the "leading role of the party". The Leninist theory of the party was likewise imposed on the "International". After Lenin's death, Zinoviev, Stalin and so many others would have to develop it whilst insisting ever more strongly on "iron discipline" and "unity of thought and unity of action". The principle on which the Stalinist International rested was the same as that which formed the basis of the reformist socialist parties:(the party separate from the workers, bringing them consciousness of themselves). Whoever rejected the Lenin-Stalin theory fell into "the morass of opportunism, social-democracy and Menshevism".

"What Is To Be Done ?"

For their part, the Trotskyists clung to Lenin's ideas and recited "What Is To Be Done?" Humanity's crisis, is nothing but the crisis of leadership, said Trotsky: so a leadership must be created at any cost. This is the ultimate idealism, the history of the world is explained as a crisis of consciousness.

In the end, Stalinism would only triumph in countries where the development of capitalism could not be assured by the bourgeoisie unless conditions were created for the working class to destroy it. In Eastern Europe, China and Cuba, a new leading group was formed, composed of the high ranks of a bureaucratised working class movement, along with former bourgeois specialists or technicians, sometimes army cadres or former students who rallied to the new social order as in China. In the final analysis, such a process was only possible because of the weakness of the working class movement. In China for example the revolution's driving social stratum was the peasantry: incapable of directing it themselves, they could only be directed by "the party". Before the seizure of power the group organised in "the party" directs the masses and the "liberated zones" if there are any. Afterwards it takes in hand the totality of the country's social life. Everywhere Lenin's ideas have been a powerful bureaucratic factor. For Lenin the function of directing the working class movement was a specific function taken care of by "leaders" organised separately from the movement and with that as their role. To the extent that it sanctioned the establishment of a corps separated from revolution, professionals leading the masses, Leninism served as an ideological justification for the formation of leaderships separated from the workers. At this stage Leninism, taken out of its original context, is no more than a technique for enclosing the masses and an ideology justifying bureaucracy and maintaining capitalism: its recuperation was a historical necessity for the development of those new social structures which themselves represent a historical necessity for the development of capital. As capitalism expands and dominates the entire planet, so the conditions which make revolution possible become ripe. Leninist ideology is beginning to have had its day.

Its impossible to examine the problem of the party without putting it in the context of the historical conditions in which the debate originated: in every case, though in different forms, the development of Leninist ideology was due to the impossibility of proletarian revolution. If history has sided with Kautskyism-Leninism, if its opponents have never been able either to organise themselves in a lasting way or even to put forward a coherent critique of it this is not by chance: the success of Kautskyism-Leninism is a product of our era and the first serious attacks -- practical attacks -- on it mark the end of an entire period of history. For this to happen it was necessary for the capitalist mode of production to fully develop over the whole world. The 1956 Hungarian revolution sounded the death knell of a whole period: of counter revolution, but also of revolutionary flowering. No-one knows when this period will be definitively obsolete but it is certain that the critique of the ideas of Kautsky and Lenin, products of that period, becomes possible and necessary from that time. That's why we recommend reading "The Three Sources of Marxism, the Historic Work of Marx" so that the dominant ideology of a whole era is more widely known and understood. Far from wanting to conceal the ideas which we condemn and oppose, we want to spread them widely so as to show both their necessity and their historical limits.

The conditions which allowed the development and success of organisations of a social democratic or Bolshevik kind are today obsolete. As for Leninist ideology, besides its use by bureaucrats in power, far from being of use to revolutionary groups who crave the union of socialism with the working class movement it can from now on only serve to temporarily cement the union of passably revolutionary workers with mediocre intellectuals.


Publication Details

This article originally formed an afterword to an article by Karl Kautsky "Les trois sources du Marxisme" (The three sources of Marxism) which was reprinted in French in April 1977 by editions Spartacus. (serie B No.78).

This was not the first Spartacus edition of this text by Kautsky - it had originally been published by them in 1947 with an introduction by the french social-democrat Lucien Laurat. In the seventies they reprinted a number of their older pamphlets with new afterwords, and this particular text had two - this one by Jean Barrot (the pen name in the 1970's of Gilles Dauvé), and a second, 'Idéologie et lutte de classes' by Pierre Guillaume, better known these days for other reasons.

Part of the interest in discussing Kautsky's article was the fact that Lenin's much better known article The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism was based on it, and it therefore illuminated the relationship between Kautsky's and Lenin's conceptions of marxism and socialism. As far as we can discover Kautsky's article has never been translated into english.

This edited translation of Barrot's afterword was first published in the UK in 1987 as "Leninism or Communism" by the group Wildcat (Subversion). The sub-headings were added by the translator.

redstar2000
9th August 2003, 14:27
Has anyone noticed? We are lately getting some really excellent material in this forum.

The above piece is a remarkably clear summary and, in my opinion, absolutely correct.

Thanks, Morpheus!

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elijahcraig
9th August 2003, 22:27
t-t-t-trashhh...

Morpheus
9th August 2003, 23:13
elijahcraig,

Would you care to give a rational refutation of the article rather than one-word namecalling?

elijahcraig
9th August 2003, 23:16
Anyone who takes Kautsky over Lenin is an utopian anarchist. I don't need to go into depths refuting anarchist nonsense. It's a time-comsuming useless act.

Morpheus
10th August 2003, 00:11
You didn't bother reading the article, did you? The arguement of the article is that Leninism = Kautskyism, not that we should take Kautsky over Lenin. It presuposes that Kautsky was bad and then criticizes Lenin because of his similarities to Kautsky. Anarchists certainly don't support Kautsky, we were criticizing him when Lenin was still glorifying him. Also, this article was written by a Marxist, NOT an anarchist.

Anyway, please read the article. After you have read it, if you still disagree, please lay out, in a rational manner, where it's theoretical errors lie. Provide a rational critique. Perhaps it is wrong, but we'll never know that if people who disagree with it just call names instead of pointing out where it goes wrong.

elijahcraig
10th August 2003, 00:49
The basic, and there are more, difference between Lenin and Kautsky is that Kautsky did not take on the question of the state, while Lenin did.

Morpheus
10th August 2003, 03:35
You haven't read much Kautsky, have you? Kautsky wrote about the State. Regardless, your claim still does not refute the points made in the above article.

elijahcraig
10th August 2003, 03:39
Let me rephrase my statment. He did not take on the state in the right manner. He dodged it on whether it should be smashed, or won over.

Morpheus
10th August 2003, 03:49
Uh no, he was explicitly in favor of a Workers' state. Your claim still doesn't even address the points the article brought up (Leninism is a by-product of Kautskyism and obsolete, etc.). Stop being evasive.

elijahcraig
10th August 2003, 04:48
"The three sources of Marxism; the historic work of Marx" is clearly of historical interest. Kautsky was unquestionably the major thinker of the Second International and his party, the German Social Democratic Party, the most powerful. Kautsky, the guardian of orthodoxy, was almost universally regarded as the most knowledgeable expert on the work of Marx and Engels and their privileged interpreter. Kautsky's positions therefore bear witness to a whole era of the working class movement and are worth knowing if only for this. We are concerned here with a central question for the proletarian movement: the relationship between the working class and revolutionary theory. Kautsky's reply to this question formed the theoretical foundation of the practice and organisation of all the parties which made up the Second International. This included the Russian Social Democratic Party, and its Bolshevik fraction, which was an orthodox member until 1914, that is until the collapse of the International in the face of the First World War.

Kautsky was consider the leading theoritician before World war one. He broke from Marxism when he became a pacifist. That's not Marxism, and it's not Leninism.


However, the theory expounded by Kautsky in that text did not collapse at the same time as the Second International. Quite the contrary, it survived and equally formed the basis of the Third International through the medium of "Leninism" and its Stalinist and Trotskyist avatars.

Really? I'd say pacifism warrants throwing Kautsky out. He voted for the war, then became a pacifist after it got bad. What a guy.


Leninism: By-Product of Kautskyism !

Leninism, by-product of Kautskyism! This will startle those who only know Kautsky from the abuse hurled at him by Bolshevism, and in particular Lenin's pamphlet, "The Bankruptcy of the Second International and the Renegade Kautsky", and those who only know about Lenin what is considered good to know about him in the various churches and chapels they frequent.




Yet the very title of Lenin's pamphlet very precisely defines his relationship with Kautsky. If Lenin calls Kautsky a renegade it's clear that he thinks Kautsky was previously a follower of the true faith, of which he now considers himself the only qualified defender. Far from criticising Kautskyism, which he shows himself unable to identify, Lenin is in fact content to reproach his former master-thinker for having betrayed his own teachings. From any point of view Lenin's break was at once late and superficial. Late because Lenin had entertained the deepest illusions about German Social Democracy, and had only understood after the "betrayal" was accomplished. Superficial because Lenin was content to break on the problems of imperialism and the war without going into the underlying causes of the social democratic betrayal of August 1914. These causes were linked to the very nature of those parties and their relations, with capitalist society as much as with the proletariat. These relations must themselves be brought back to the very movement of capital and of the working class. They must be understood as a phase of the development of the proletariat, and not as something open to being changed by the will of a minority, not even of a revolutionary leadership, however aware it might be.

Lenin never idolized Kautsky, the author just assumes this to be true, without proof. Lenin was angry at Kautsky for becoming a pacifist, and using "peaceful" capitalist opposition.


From this stems the present importance of the theory which Kautsky develops in a particularly coherent form in his pamphlet and which constituted the very fabric of his thought throughout his life. Lenin took up this theory and developed it as early as 1900 in "The Immediate Objectives of our Organisation" and then in "What Is To Be Done?" in 1902, in which moreover he quotes Kautsky at length and with great praise. In 1913 Lenin again took up these ideas in " The Three Sources and the Three Component Parts of Marxism" in which he develops the same themes and sometimes uses Kautsky's text word for word.

Yes, Lenin used Kautsky in that text, but later criticized him for his turn from Marxism. I guess the author leaves this out of mind in his mindless rant?


These ideas rest on a scanty and superficial historical analysis of the relationships of Marx and Engels, to the intellectuals of their time as much as to the working class movement. They can be summarised in a few words, and a couple of quotations will be enough to reveal their substance: "A working class movement that is spontaneous and bereft of any theory rising in the labouring classes against ascendant capitalism, is incapable of accomplishing revolutionary work."

That work contains Kautsky's "intelligentsia" guiding the working class. Lenin never used this idea again.


It is also necessary to bring about what Kautsky calls the union of the working class movement and socialism. Now: "Socialist consciousness today (?!) can only arise on the basis of deep scientific knowledge (...) But the bearer of science is not the proletariat but the bourgeois intellectuals; (...) so then socialist consciousness is something brought into the class struggle of the proletariat from outside and not something that arises spontaneously within it." These words of Kautsky's are according to Lenin "profoundly true."

And he later changed his views. He abandoned Kautsky's "bourgeois intellectuals" for marxism, despite the claims of anarchists like Morpheus and Redstar and the fool who wrote this piece.


It is clear that this much desired union of the working class movement and socialism could not be brought about in the same way in Germany as in Russia as the conditions were different. But it is important to see that the deep divergence's of Bolshevism in the organisational field did not result from different basic conceptions, but rather solely from the application of the same principles in different social, economic and political situations.




In fact far from ending up in an ever greater union of the working class movement and socialism, social democracy would end up in an ever closer union with capital and the bourgeoisie. As for Bolshevism, after having been like a fish in water in the Russian Revolution ("revolutionaries are in the revolution like water in water") because of the revolution's defeat it would end in all but complete fusion with state capital, administered by a totalitarian bureaucracy.

I don't agree Stalin was "totalitarian"...but in the fantasy world of Barrot, I guess anything goes.


However Leninism continues to haunt the minds of many revolutionaries of more or less good will who are searching for a recipe capable of success. Persuaded that they are "of the vanguard" because they possess "consciousness", whereas they only possess a false theory, they struggle militantly for a union of those two metaphysical monstrosities, "a spontaneous working class movement, bereft of any theory" and a disembodied "socialist consciousness."

Vanguards consist of the most militant workers. Not the "intellectuals". I suppose you utopianists would rather have us all sitting around in crowds not knowing what the hell is going on. Can we show anyone the way?...No, that would be wrong according to the anarchists and fellow idealists.


This attitude is simply voluntarist. Now, if as Lenin said "irony and patience are the principal qualities of the revolutionary", "impatience is the principal source of opportunism" (Trotsky). The intellectual, the revolutionary theorist doesn't have to worry about linking up with the masses because if their theory is revolutionary they are already linked to the masses. They don't have to "chose the camp of the proletariat" (it is not Sartre using these terms, it is Lenin) because, properly speaking, they do not have the choice. The theoretical and practical criticism they bear is determined by the relationship they hold with society. They can only free themselves from this passion by surrendering to it (Marx). If they "have the choice" it's because they are no longer revolutionary, and their theoretical criticism is already rotten. The problem of the penetration of revolutionary ideas which they share in the working class milieu is entirely transformed through that milieu.... when the historical conditions, the balance of power between the warring classes, ( principally determined by the autonomised movement of capital) prevents any revolutionary eruption of the proletariat onto the scene of history the intellectual does the same as the worker: what they can. They study, write, make their works known as best as they can, usually quite badly. When he was studying at the British museum, Marx, a product of the historical movement of the proletariat, was linked, if not to the workers, at least to the historical movement of the proletariat. He was no more isolated from the workers than any worker is isolated from the rest. To an extent the conditions of the time limit such relationships to those which capitalism allows.

Since I disagree with his first argument, this second one is obviously useless to me.


On the other hand when proletarians form themselves as a class and in one way or another declare war on capital they have no need whatsoever for anyone to bring them KNOWLEDGE before they can do this. Being themselves, in capitalist production relations, nothing but variable capital, it is enough that they want to change their situation in however small a way for them to be directly at the heart of the problem which the intellectual will have some difficulty in reaching. In the class struggle the revolutionary is neither more nor less linked to the proletariat than they were before. But theoretical critique then fuses with practical critique, not because it has been brought in from outside but because they are one and the same thing.

Then helping them see the way is wrong? What about militant workers who want to help? This is obviously against the utopianist version of marxism the author prescribes to.


If in recent times the weakness of the intellectual has been to believe that proletarians remain passive because they lack "consciousness"; and if they have come to believe themselves to be "the vanguard" to the point of wanting to lead the proletariat, then they have some bitter disappointments in store.

I know he likes to, as well as the rest of you idealists, twist the term "vanguard" to mean a new ruling body...but it simply is not true. Helping the brainwashed masses see the way is not a new ruling class, but a push to its back.


Yet it is this idea which constitutes the essence of Leninism, as is shown by the ambiguous history of Bolshevism. These ideas were in the end only able to survive because the Russian revolution failed, that is to say because the balance of power, on the international scale, between capital and proletariat, did not allow the latter to carry through its practical and theoretical critique.

"it is this idea [radical intellectuals taking power, a noam chomsky logic there] which constitutes the essence of Leninism"? I don't agree. Those are the words of an anarchist, or an idealist Marxist. The most militant help the ones who are not militant. You people live in a fantasy world where you expect the masses to become spontaneously enlightened as to their position amongst class society, it is not so. Just as Trotskyism thinks that the whole world will have a spontaneous revolution. It is idealism.


The True Role of Bolshevism.

This is what we shall try to demonstrate by analysing, in summary, what happened in Russia and the true role of Bolshevism. In thinking that he saw in Russian revolutionary circles the fruit of "the union of the working class movement and socialism" Lenin was seriously mistaken. The revolutionaries organised in social-democratic groups did not bring any "consciousness" to the proletariat. Of course an exposition or a theoretical article on Marxism was very useful to the workers: its use however was not to give consciousness or the idea of class struggle, but simply to clarify things and provoke further thought. Lenin did not understand this reality. He not only wanted to bring to the working class consciousness of the necessity of socialism in general, he also wanted to give them imperative watchwords explaining what they must do at a specific time. And this was quite normal since Lenin's party alone (as the trustee of class consciousness) was fit to discern the general interest of the working class beyond all its divisions into various strata, to analyse the situation at all times and to formulate appropriate watchwords. Well, the 1905 revolution would have to show the practical inability of the Bolshevik party to direct the working class and reveal the "behindness" of the vanguard party. All historians, even those favourable to the Bolsheviks, recognised that in 1905 the Bolshevik party understood nothing about the Soviets. The appearance of new forms of organisation aroused the distrust of the Bolsheviks: Lenin stated that the Soviets were "neither a working class parliament nor an organ of self-government". The important thing is to see that the Russian workers did not know that they were going to form Soviets. Only a very small minority amongst them knew about the experience of the Paris commune and yet they created an embryonic worker's state, though no-one had educated them. The Kautskyist- Leninist thesis in fact denies the working class all power of original creation when not guided by the party, (as the fusion of the working class movement and socialism). Now you can see that in 1905, to take up a phrase from " Theses on Feuerbach", "the educator himself needs educating".

Here's a quote from Lenin on the 1905 revolution:


That was achieved only by the revolutionary struggle of the proletariat. Only the waves of mass strikes that swept over the whole country, strikes connected with the severe lessons of the imperialist Russo-Japancse War, roused the broad masses of peasants from their lethargy. The word "striker" acquired an entirely new meaning among the peasants: it signified a rebel, a revolutionary, a term previously expressed by the word "student". But the "student" belonged to the middle class, to the "learned", to the "gentry", and was therefore alien to the people. The "striker", on the other hand, was of the people; he belonged to the exploited class. Deported from St. Petersburg, he often returned to the village where he told his fellow villagers of the conflagration which was spreading to all the cities and would destroy both the capitalists and the nobility. A new type appeared in the Russian village -- the class-conscious young peasant. He associated with "strikers", he read newspapers, he told the peasants about events in the cities, explained to his fellow-villagers the meaning of political demands, and urged them to fight the landowning nobility, the priests and the government officials.

To use blanket statements in assertion that the workers knew nothing of the Paris commune, etc etc etc., it's a little arrogant. Propaganda amongst the masses by the party caused them to become rebellious.



Yet Lenin did accomplish revolutionary work (his position on the war amongst others) as opposed to Kautsky. But in reality Lenin was only revolutionary when he went against his theory of class consciousness. Let's take the case of his activity between February and October 1917. Lenin had worked for more than 15 years (since 1900) to create a vanguard organisation which would realise the union of "socialism" and the "working class movement". He sought to regroup "political leaders" (the "representatives of the vanguard capable of organising and leading the movement".) In 1917, as in 1905, this political leadership, represented by the central committee of the Bolshevik party, showed itself beneath the tasks of the day, and behind the revolutionary activity of the proletariat. All historians, including the Stalinist and Trotskyist ones, show that Lenin had to fight a long and difficult battle against the current in his own organisation to make his ideas triumph.

Gosh, who would ever argue that arguing for the way he thought was best in debate and struggle could ever be a good thing. That's democracy. Debate and discussion.


And he was only able to succeed by leaning on the workers of the party, on the true vanguard organised in the factories inside or around social-democratic circles. It will be said that all this would have been impossible without the activity put in over many years by the Bolsheviks, as much on the level of workers' everyday struggles as on that of the defence and propagation of revolutionary ideas. The' great majority of the Bolsheviks, with Lenin in the foreground, did indeed contribute through their unceasing propaganda and agitation to the insurrection of October 1917. As revolutionary militants, they played an effective role: but as the "leadership of the class" or the "conscious vanguard", they were behind the proletariat. The revolution took place against the ideas of "What is to be done?" and to the extent that these ideas were applied (created by an organ directing the working class but separated from it) they showed themselves to be a check and obstacle to the revolution. In 1905 Lenin was behind history because he clung to the ideas of "What is to be done?" In 1917 Lenin took part in the real movement of the Russian masses and in doing this rejected in his practice the concepts developed in "What is to be done?".

I agree he changed his views. That doesn't mean anything other than that he evolved.

Non-class conscious revolutionary only? I do not agree at all. Class is what his theories were based upon.


If we apply to Kautsky and Lenin the opposite treatment to that which they subjected Marx to, if we link their ideas to the class struggle instead of separating them from it, Kautskyism-Leninism emerges as characteristic of a whole period of the working class movement dominated from the start by the Second International. Having developed and organised as best they could, proletarians found themselves in a contradictory situation from the end of the 19th century. They possessed various organisations whose goal was to make the revolution and at the same time they were incapable of carrying it through because the conditions were not yet ripe. Kautskyism-Leninism was the expression of the solution of this contradiction. By postulating that the proletariat had to go through the detour of scientific consciousness in order to become revolutionary, it authorised the existence of organisations to enclose, direct and control the proletariat.

Once again...gosh, why didn't they just let the workers suffer? Who cares? Not the idealists obviously.


As we pointed out, Lenin's case is more complex than Kautsky's, to the extent that Lenin was in one part of his life, a revolutionary as opposed to Kautskyism- Leninism. Moreover, the situation of Russia was totally different to that of Germany, which virtually possessed a bourgeois-democratic regime and in which a working class movement existed which was strongly developed and integrated into the system. It was quite the opposite in Russia, where everything was still to be built and there was no question of taking part in bourgeois parliamentary and reformist union activities as these didn't exist. In these conditions Lenin was able to adopt a revolutionary position despite his Kautskyist ideas. We must nevertheless point out that he considered German social-democracy a model until the world war.

He wasn't a Kautskyist! Stop with the absurd bullshit. It's nonsense. My god. This article is useless. I disagree on the first paragraph, the rest is a pounding to the head.


In their revised and corrected histories of Leninism, the Stalinists and Trotskyists show us a clear sighted Lenin who understood and denounced the "betrayal" by social democracy and the International before 1914. This is pure myth and one would really have to study the true history of the International to show that not only did Lenin not denounce it but that before the war he under- stood nothing of the phenomenon of social democratic degeneracy.

......................................


Before 1914 Lenin even praised the German Social- Democratic party (SPD) for having been able to unite the "working class movement" and "socialism"(cf. "What is to be done?"). Let us just quote these lines taken from the obituary article "August Bebel" (which also contains several error of detail and of substance concerning this model "working class leader", and concerning the history of the Second International).




"The basis of the parliamentary tactics of German (and international) Social-democracy, which doesn't give an inch to the enemy, which doesn't miss the slightest opportunity to obtain some improvement, however small, for the workers, which at the same time shows itself uncompromising on its principles and always aims towards achieving its objectives, the basis of these tactics was established by Bebel..."



Lenin addressed these words of praise to "the parliamentary tactics of German (and international) Social Democracy", "uncompromising its principles" (!) in August 1913! A year later he thought that the issue of Vorwarts ( paper of the German Social-Democratic Party) which announced the vote for war credits by the Social-Democratic deputies, was a fake manufactured by .the German High Command. This reveals the depth of the illusions he had held for a long time, (in fact since 1900 - 1902), in the Second International in general and German social-democracy in particular. (We won't examine the attitude of other revolutionaries, Rosa Luxemburg for example, to these questions. That question would require a detailed study in its own right.)

It's amazing how the author does not acknowledge why Lenin made the change. WWI is your answer. Who supported, who became a pacifist, who fucked over the working class. Nice working around that part idealist.


We have seen how Lenin had in his practice abandoned the ideas of "What Is To Be Done?" in 1917. But the immaturity of the class struggle on a global level and in particular the absence of revolution in Europe, brought the defeat of the Russian Revolution. The Bolsheviks found themselves in power with the task of "governing Russia" (Lenin), of performing the task of the bourgeois revolution which hadn't occurred, that is to say, of actually securing the development of the Russian economy.

It's amazing how the author would rather let the masses drown in suffering than help them. It's amazing to me someone would use words like "governing" in a twistful manner in which he does. It makes me sick to my stomach.


This development could not be anything but capitalist. The bringing to heel of the working class -- and of opposition in the party -- became an essential objective. Lenin, who had not explicitly rejected "What Is To Be Done?" in 1917, immediately took up again the "Leninist" concepts which alone would allow the "necessary" enclosure of the working class. The Democratic Centralists, the Workers' Opposition, and the Workers' Group were crushed for having denied the "leading role of the party". The Leninist theory of the party was likewise imposed on the "International". After Lenin's death, Zinoviev, Stalin and so many others would have to develop it whilst insisting ever more strongly on "iron discipline" and "unity of thought and unity of action". The principle on which the Stalinist International rested was the same as that which formed the basis of the reformist socialist parties:(the party separate from the workers, bringing them consciousness of themselves). Whoever rejected the Lenin-Stalin theory fell into "the morass of opportunism, social-democracy and Menshevism".

Once again, I disagree. The author portrays helping the masses become conscious as ruthlessly punishing them through capitalist exploitation. Rubbish and vomit.


"What Is To Be Done ?"

For their part, the Trotskyists clung to Lenin's ideas and recited "What Is To Be Done?" Humanity's crisis, is nothing but the crisis of leadership, said Trotsky: so a leadership must be created at any cost. This is the ultimate idealism, the history of the world is explained as a crisis of consciousness.

Trotskyism, I agree, is Idealism. So I won't argue about that.


In the end, Stalinism would only triumph in countries where the development of capitalism could not be assured by the bourgeoisie unless conditions were created for the working class to destroy it. In Eastern Europe, China and Cuba, a new leading group was formed, composed of the high ranks of a bureaucratised working class movement, along with former bourgeois specialists or technicians, sometimes army cadres or former students who rallied to the new social order as in China. In the final analysis, such a process was only possible because of the weakness of the working class movement. In China for example the revolution's driving social stratum was the peasantry: incapable of directing it themselves, they could only be directed by "the party". Before the seizure of power the group organised in "the party" directs the masses and the "liberated zones" if there are any. Afterwards it takes in hand the totality of the country's social life. Everywhere Lenin's ideas have been a powerful bureaucratic factor. For Lenin the function of directing the working class movement was a specific function taken care of by "leaders" organised separately from the movement and with that as their role. To the extent that it sanctioned the establishment of a corps separated from revolution, professionals leading the masses, Leninism served as an ideological justification for the formation of leaderships separated from the workers. At this stage Leninism, taken out of its original context, is no more than a technique for enclosing the masses and an ideology justifying bureaucracy and maintaining capitalism: its recuperation was a historical necessity for the development of those new social structures which themselves represent a historical necessity for the development of capital. As capitalism expands and dominates the entire planet, so the conditions which make revolution possible become ripe. Leninist ideology is beginning to have had its day.

More twisting of words like "leadership" to mean "totalitarian dictatorship" and calling the democratic country Cuba a "bureacratic" establishment. Nice one. Only an idealist would see it as such.

Despite what the Luxemburgites and Anarchists believe, the workers in first world nations, the nations with more developed capitalist economies, are not very enlightened as to their place in class society. The idea of the working class overthrowing the capitalists without leadership right now...it is outright utopianism, and equally laughable.


Its impossible to examine the problem of the party without putting it in the context of the historical conditions in which the debate originated: in every case, though in different forms, the development of Leninist ideology was due to the impossibility of proletarian revolution. If history has sided with Kautskyism-Leninism, if its opponents have never been able either to organise themselves in a lasting way or even to put forward a coherent critique of it this is not by chance: the success of Kautskyism-Leninism is a product of our era and the first serious attacks -- practical attacks -- on it mark the end of an entire period of history. For this to happen it was necessary for the capitalist mode of production to fully develop over the whole world. The 1956 Hungarian revolution sounded the death knell of a whole period: of counter revolution, but also of revolutionary flowering. No-one knows when this period will be definitively obsolete but it is certain that the critique of the ideas of Kautsky and Lenin, products of that period, becomes possible and necessary from that time. That's why we recommend reading "The Three Sources of Marxism, the Historic Work of Marx" so that the dominant ideology of a whole era is more widely known and understood. Far from wanting to conceal the ideas which we condemn and oppose, we want to spread them widely so as to show both their necessity and their historical limits.

...

My above thoughts go here as well.


The conditions which allowed the development and success of organisations of a social democratic or Bolshevik kind are today obsolete. As for Leninist ideology, besides its use by bureaucrats in power, far from being of use to revolutionary groups who crave the union of socialism with the working class movement it can from now on only serve to temporarily cement the union of passably revolutionary workers with mediocre intellectuals.

blah blah blah, etc.

This sounds like a RedStar piece, did you write it ( :lol: )?

redstar2000
10th August 2003, 14:14
This sounds like a RedStar piece, did you write it?

No, but I would have been very proud to have produced such an articulate, well-reasoned and historically-grounded piece.

And you really have no relevant reply at all; just babble about Kautsky becoming a pacifist--long after the events that are discussed in the piece--and "name-calling"--"idealist", "anarchist", blah, blah, blah.

I can sympathize with your desire to distance your role-model from being associated with the renegade Kautsky; I wish there was an even remotely plausible way to distance Marx from that pompous windbag Hegel.

Unfortunately, it can't be done. Marx deeply admired Hegel and was heavily influenced by him. Lenin deeply admired Kautsky and was heavily influenced by him. Those are historical facts that you can only escape by lying.

As to your recent infatuation with Leninism-Stalinism, I've criticized those ideas in many threads and see no reason to repeat myself here.

But I wonder why you don't look at the actual groups that claim to embody those ideas? Just where is their so-called "revolutionary leadership"? Most of them are parliamentary cretins and the remainder are cargo cults.

Or perhaps you plan to take off to some backward country and sign up with the local Maoist insurgency...?

Better remind me again about who is the "idealist" here...I forgot.

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elijahcraig
10th August 2003, 19:27
This sounds like a RedStar piece, did you write it?

No, but I would have been very proud to have produced such an articulate, well-reasoned and historically-grounded piece.

...


And you really have no relevant reply at all; just babble about Kautsky becoming a pacifist--long after the events that are discussed in the piece--and "name-calling"--"idealist", "anarchist", blah, blah, blah.

My reply was on the first paragraph, anything after that builds off the first paragraph and is useless since I disagree with the first paragraph. The author skips over the fact that Kautsy voted for WWI, then became a pacifist, along with his followers. Lenin turned against him when this happened, and changed his views somewhat.


I can sympathize with your desire to distance your role-model from being associated with the renegade Kautsky; I wish there was an even remotely plausible way to distance Marx from that pompous windbag Hegel.

I agree they were both in a sort of agreement before WWI, but after that Kautsky's credibility in the field of Marx went down down down.


Unfortunately, it can't be done. Marx deeply admired Hegel and was heavily influenced by him. Lenin deeply admired Kautsky and was heavily influenced by him. Those are historical facts that you can only escape by lying.

I won't say they aren't true. But I think Lenin later on changed his "intelligensia" taking power, since when it occured, it obviously did not happen that way.


As to your recent infatuation with Leninism-Stalinism, I've criticized those ideas in many threads and see no reason to repeat myself here.

OK.


But I wonder why you don't look at the actual groups that claim to embody those ideas? Just where is their so-called "revolutionary leadership"? Most of them are parliamentary cretins and the remainder are cargo cults.

I think anarchist's view of the "vanguard" is often turned into a totalitarianistic power coming to rule with an iron fist over the masses...but in reality it is nothing but the most militant workers and marxists.


Or perhaps you plan to take off to some backward country and sign up with the local Maoist insurgency...?

I sure haven't ruled that out, I know several people who live in "backward" countries. Brazil, Peru, Mexico, etc etc etc.


Better remind me again about who is the "idealist" here...I forgot.

You obviously disagree. You think...Me; I think...You.

Morpheus
10th August 2003, 19:42
I agree they were both in a sort of agreement before WWI

Then you admit that the article is basically correct. Leninism is a by-product of Kautskyism.

Incidentally, even the Marxist Encyclopedia (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/frame.htm) says Stalin was totalitarian.

elijahcraig
10th August 2003, 19:49
wow, you linked me to a trotskyist website, good one there.

I'd say the article vastly overemphasized the small amount of effect Kautsky had on Lenin. Lenin later went against Kautsky because of his anti-Marxist stance on war.

Morpheus
10th August 2003, 19:57
It's not a small amount of effect if they were in agreement prior to WWI. It's a pretty big affect.

elijahcraig
10th August 2003, 20:01
There's no real way to measure how much of an effect Kautsky had on Lenin, so it will come down to the fact that you and I simply disagree.

blackemma
11th August 2003, 17:21
Anyone who takes Kautsky over Lenin is an utopian anarchist. I don't need to go into depths refuting anarchist nonsense.

Are you really that arrogant or do you have an inferiority complex that you hope to make up for by slandering anarchism all the time? I am fully capable of admitting there are intelligent Marxists of all shades and varieties and I am just as capable of admitting there are intelligent anarchists. The term utopian is an over-used term to write off ideologies one does not like, while not taking on the actual issue. I don't pretend to be a leading anarchist theoretician so I'm not going to say that I'm able to represent anarchism as a movement, but I will say that I would be more than amused to see you debate Morpheus on anarchism vs. statist socialism if you're so convinced you are above this "anarchist nonsense".

peaccenicked
11th August 2003, 18:29
http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/katori/Rosa...sa_Comment.html (http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/katori/Rosa_Comment.html)
Just to point to the rigidness of thinking in the past without reference to modern times.
I ll let Lenin speak for himself against the molesters of history on the left.
http://www2.cddc.vt.edu/marxists/archive/l...1919/apr/15.htm (http://www2.cddc.vt.edu/marxists/archive/lenin/works/1919/apr/15.htm)


Kautsky did indeed have an influence on Lenin but Lenin felt betrayed by the
Second International's support for the First world war. From this support he classified the 2nd international as the "yellow international''. Thus the term
'Renegade'
My hatred for such cowardice runs much deeper than that.

Severian
11th August 2003, 18:41
Makes a mountain out of the molehill that Kautsky was, at one time, a Marxist. Yes, he was, and he had pretty decent working relations with both Marx and Engels until the end of their lives.

As Kautsky later sold out, it's easy to suggest that everything he ever wrote was a betrayal, or at least a revision of Marxism and that if Lenin also held some of those ideas he must have been a revisionist or something. This is not the method of serious reasoning about ideas, however. Has more in common with Stalinist amalgams and rewriting history about those later declared "enemies of the people", really.

IMO some of Kautsky's earlier writings are still worth reading. "Foundations of Christianity" for example.

Getting past this extraneous issue, the basic core of this is a common misunderstanding of the ideas expressed in "What is to be Done" among other places. Middle-class radicals commonly assume that "professional revolutionaries" must be middle-class individuals like themselves. Also that they are the ones intended to bring revolutionary consciousness into working-class struggles from outside.

In reality, the Bolshevik party - and its core of professional revolutionaries - was more proletarian in both membership and leadership than any of its rivals or critics. The overall theme of "What is to be Done", if you read the whole thing and not just out-of-context quotes, is that communist consciousness cannot arise from any single, particular, spontaneous, usually economic struggle, but only from linking together all the struggles of the working class and allied layers of the toiling, exploited population.

It's a polemic against the "Economists", y'know, who wanted to drop everything except immediate economic struggles. Shouldn't be hard to understand that you can't draw general revolutionary conclusions solely on the basis of a single strike you're involved in - at most, the experience of that strike proves that ONE employer is an SOB, local police on his side, particular politicians must have been bribed by the company of something, etc. Only by linking up this experience with other struggles by workers and other toilers can you come to a general understanding of the totality of class relations in society.

elijahcraig
11th August 2003, 19:19
Are you really that arrogant or do you have an inferiority complex that you hope to make up for by slandering anarchism all the time?

This article slanders Lenin, I slander your utopian theories.


I am fully capable of admitting there are intelligent Marxists of all shades and varieties and I am just as capable of admitting there are intelligent anarchists.

Intelligence has nothing to do with it. I used to be an anarchist. I love Bakunin's "God and the State" (anyone who is a religious person should read it, they no longer will be). I love Alexander Berkman, he's one of my heroes. It is simply that in the end anarchism is a utopian philosophy. No doubt the followers are sincere, it just isn't materialistic.


The term utopian is an over-used term to write off ideologies one does not like, while not taking on the actual issue. I don't pretend to be a leading anarchist theoretician so I'm not going to say that I'm able to represent anarchism as a movement, but I will say that I would be more than amused to see you debate Morpheus on anarchism vs. statist socialism if you're so convinced you are above this "anarchist nonsense".

I thought that was what we've been debating in about two or three threads.

redstar2000
12th August 2003, 02:46
Middle-class radicals commonly assume that "professional revolutionaries" must be middle-class individuals like themselves. Also that they are the ones intended to bring revolutionary consciousness into working-class struggles from outside.

Is that not a reasonable reading of both Kautsky and Lenin?

In reality, the Bolshevik party - and its core of professional revolutionaries - was more proletarian in both membership and leadership than any of its rivals or critics.

That may be true; if the Mensheviks were 1% proletarian and the Bolsheviks were 2% proletarian, the statement would be true...and meaningless.

Only by linking up this experience with other struggles by workers and other toilers can you come to a general understanding of the totality of class relations in society.

No sensible person argues against such a view...though it seems to me in passing that workers in struggle are quite capable of grasping the idea that the fate of their struggles is linked to the struggles of other workers. So much so that in the United States it was necessary to pass a federal law against "secondary strikes"...workers walking out in solidarity with other striking workers.

Be that as it may, the current questions surrounding Leninism have nothing to do with a polemic against a forgotten position. They concern the actual validity of the Leninist view of class consciousness and how it arises and develops; the actual validity of the Leninist concept of socialism; the actual utility of the "democratic centralist" party in the advanced capitalist countries.

What is to be done? Lenin's answer was wrong.

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Severian
12th August 2003, 09:14
Well, in order to usefully discuss the "validity" of Lenin's position on these questions, it's necessary to establish what that position was. That's what I was attempting to do in my last post.

Both you and Barrot are setting up a straw man. A lot of people set up the same straw man, label it Lenin, and proceed to attack it; but arguing against a straw man remains an excercise in intellectual masturbation regardless of how many people do it.

peaccenicked
26th August 2003, 12:10
Lenin is the absolute bogey man of the anarchists. All they do is tell lies.

redstar2000
26th August 2003, 14:07
Both you and Barrot are setting up a straw man.

Then, it seems to me, that instead of fatuous remarks about masturbation, it would be incumbent on you to demonstrate in what fashion Lenin's views were falsified or mis-stated by Barrot...or by me.

And speaking of fatuous remarks, there's this...

Lenin is the absolute bogey man of the anarchists. All they do is tell lies.

I cannot speak for others, but I have written several thousand words on Lenin's views...please explain to me where I have "lied".

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