US owned glass company nationalised

[REDSOX]

Another key nationalisation in venezuela and more to follow soon. Since 2007 thats 347 companies foreign and domestic nationalised some under workers control. Lets hope for more of it! http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/fmt-english/world/world-news/12055-venezuela-expropriates-unit-of-us-glassmaker-owens-illinois

[Q]

Another key nationalisation in venezuela and more to follow soon. Since 2007 thats 347 companies foreign and domestic nationalised some under workers control. Lets hope for more of it! http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/fmt-english/world/world-news/12055-venezuela-expropriates-unit-of-us-glassmaker-owens-illinois

How much percent does that represent of the economy?

Also, an average of a little less than 29 nationalisations for every year that Chavez has been in power is not that impressive to be honest.

[razboz]

How much percent does that represent of the economy?

Also, an average of a little less than 29 nationalisations for every year that Chavez has been in power is not that impressive to be honest.


Good question. The discrete number of companies nationalised is completely irrelevant.

Having said that, how many nationalisations would be 'impressive'? Compared to the rest of the world-bosses i would say Chavez is probably in the lead...

The little troll in me sez: the companies aren't really under "worker" control. More under the control of some workers that agree with Chavez, and still out of the control of the people who toil day to day to make the whole economy function.

"I don't want more hours for myself, but i hear that workers quite enjoy it." - Any manager, including a 'socialist' one.

[REDSOX]

When chavez came to power state ownership levels in Venezuela was about 18% of the economy now it is about 35% of the economy and growing with workers control to boot. I think considering the ideological climate that is impressive to be honest

[razboz]

When chavez came to power state ownership levels in Venezuela was about 18% of the economy now it is about 35% of the economy and growing with workers control to boot. I think considering the ideological climate that is impressive to be honest

That's good know. How many of those companies have undergone profound structural changes? It's the only way they won't go back to the private bosses,is if the public bosses make it impossible to organise the company without them. Or you know, if they really devolved all power to all workers. But the State will always make up shit to avoid doing that ("not yet", "the dialectic says...", "we're already doing it, but you can't see it")

[REDSOX]

Some of these companies expropriated are operating under workers control like Inveval, a state owned oil valve maker, Inaf a state owned steel company, Sidor another state owned company and some others as well though admidtedly the majority are not yet workers controlled but progress is being made despite ferocious resistance from the PSUV rightists and bureaucrats. The state owned electric corporation is moving that way as well i believe. The progress is uneven and the trade unions in venezuela are divided on its merits because they fear the unions will dissapear with workers control. It would not, it would compliment them

[REDSOX]

By the way Q the government has nationalised 195 companies this year so your sums are wrong

[RadioRaheem84]

Naysayers keep on trucking.

Hands Off Venezuela is a good source to check on worker controlled enterprises.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

When chavez came to power state ownership levels in Venezuela was about 18% of the economy now it is about 35% of the economy and growing with workers control to boot. I think considering the ideological climate that is impressive to be honest

Do you have a source for this?

[Q]

By the way Q the government has nationalised 195 companies this year so your sums are wrong

Note where I said "average", or 347 divided by the 12 years Chavez has been in power. This is lower highschool mathematics, at best.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

He said since 2007, but for comparison that's less large companies than Castro expropriated in his first weekend of nationalizing domestic businesses...

[Barry Lyndon]

The little troll in me sez: the companies aren't really under "worker" control. More under the control of some workers that agree with Chavez, and still out of the control of the people who toil day to day to make the whole economy function.

And the soviets were "just" under the control of workers "that agreed" with the Bolsheviks. Workers control is workers control.

[noble brown]

nationallization is a shitty solution to free-market capitalism. all you do is change the way the money flows, of course every economy is different but here in the u.s. the money would end up in the same hands as before. no doubt, nationalization has a way of pacifying a restless populace. they think a change has come and shits bout to get right and then BAAMM!! 20 yrs later your finally realize you got duped twenty yrs earlier. and the world keeps turning.

[razboz]

And the soviets were "just" under the control of workers "that agreed" with the Bolsheviks. Workers control is workers control.

Oh yeah definitely, and the workers that didn't agree got shot out back. Seriously, you can't call it "worker control" if it's only a small club of workers controlling it. Or else its bolivarian control or bolshevik control or whatever. Especially if this small club has a limited membership to those people who already agree with it, and ridicules, criminalises and eventually gets rid of opposition. I mean, you wouldn't call a factory owned by a capitalist but run by workers "under worker control". What they are, is under State control. Which is really just changing greedy thieving bosses, for greedy thieving bosses that your little club got to chose.

/trollbait.

[REDSOX]

Mr Q chavez has only been nationalising since 2007. So in reality in 3 years he has nationalised 347 companies and this year alone he has nationalised 195 companies Q. On average Q thats about 115 a year. Not bad eh Q

[RadioRaheem84]

Oh yeah definitely, and the workers that didn't agree got shot out back. Seriously, you can't call it "worker control" if it's only a small club of workers controlling it. Or else its bolivarian control or bolshevik control or whatever. Especially if this small club has a limited membership to those people who already agree with it, and ridicules, criminalises and eventually gets rid of opposition. I mean, you wouldn't call a factory owned by a capitalist but run by workers "under worker control". What they are, is under State control. Which is really just changing greedy thieving bosses, for greedy thieving bosses that your little club got to chose.

/trollbait.

Well then they should give it back to the capitalists until this perfect expropriation happens that satisfies your conception of workers control.

Seriously, comrades, go to the Hands of Venezuela site, watch some videos on worker controlled enterprises and catch up with the rest of Venezuela.

[Barry Lyndon]

It's funny how so many leftists say that workers control is what defines socialism, but then when workers control emerges, they invent new qualifications and criteria on the spot. Basically, nothing the Venezuelan people do is good enough for them.

And they act surprised when I suspect that racism and Eurocentrism is involved, because I highly doubt they would be sneering about this if it were happening in, say, France.

[Barry Lyndon]

Mr Q chavez has only been nationalising since 2007. So in reality in 3 years he has nationalised 347 companies and this year alone he has nationalised 195 companies Q. On average Q thats about 115 a year. Not bad eh Q

Your wasting your time REDSOX, when ultra-lefts are defeated on one issue they will simply change their arguments. Their only consistency is attacking existing revolutions, barely concealing their glee at their drawbacks and hoping that they will fail.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

It's funny how so many leftists say that workers control is what defines socialism, but then when workers control emerges, they invent new qualifications and criteria on the spot. Basically, nothing the Venezuelan people do is good enough for them.

And they act surprised when I suspect that racism and Eurocentrism is involved, because I highly doubt they would be sneering about this if it were happening in, say, France.

Maybe because the troubles in France haven't been going on for about 10 fucking years? :cool:

[REDSOX]

Yeah it does feel like groundhog day with these ultras. There are none so blind as those that will not see

[pranabjyoti]

It's funny how so many leftists say that workers control is what defines socialism, but then when workers control emerges, they invent new qualifications and criteria on the spot. Basically, nothing the Venezuelan people do is good enough for them.

And they act surprised when I suspect that racism and Eurocentrism is involved, because I highly doubt they would be sneering about this if it were happening in, say, France.
That's true for that past too, I mean about Lenin, Stalin, Mao. What I have said again and again that NONE AND NOTHING CAN SATISFY AN ARMCHAIR REVOLUTIONARY.

[Nolan]

It's funny how so many leftists say that workers control is what defines socialism, but then when workers control emerges, they invent new qualifications and criteria on the spot. Basically, nothing the Venezuelan people do is good enough for them.

And they act surprised when I suspect that racism and Eurocentrism is involved, because I highly doubt they would be sneering about this if it were happening in, say, France.

Didn't you hear? It's only workers control when they're flying a black flag.

[Barry Lyndon]

Maybe because the troubles in France haven't been going on for about 10 fucking years? :cool:

French labor struggles have been going on for decades. You obviously are not paying attention.

And it's only been in the last five years or so that the PSUV has been able to actually implement meaningful policies. From 1998-2004 the opposition made things almost impossible for the PSUV to govern, with a coup attempt, the 2003 lockout of the oil industry and so on.

Chavez entered office in 1998 as a Third Way social democrat, it was only after 2003 that he started to become a radical.

[synthesis]

How does nationalizing industries create socialism?

[Nolan]

How does nationalizing industries create socialism?

That's not what they're saying. Not that I necessarily agree with them, mind you, but that's not what anyone's saying.

[synthesis]

That's not what they're saying. Not that I necessarily agree with them, mind you, but that's not what anyone's saying.

Implicitly, it is; that, or they're saying Venezuela is already socialist, which would be pretty ridiculous in light of the fact that it is a capitalist state.

[Nolan]

Implicitly, it is; that, or they're saying Venezuela is already socialist, which would be pretty ridiculous in light of the fact that it is a capitalist state.

The PSUV claims to be expanding democratic management in the workplace. But yes, the tendency to label Venezuela as a socialist country instead of a capitalist one with a reformist president is a pet peeve of mine.

[Crux]

It's funny how so many leftists say that workers control is what defines socialism, but then when workers control emerges, they invent new qualifications and criteria on the spot. Basically, nothing the Venezuelan people do is good enough for them.

And they act surprised when I suspect that racism and Eurocentrism is involved, because I highly doubt they would be sneering about this if it were happening in, say, France.Play a new tune, this one is getting severely old. Don't argue by implying thing's argue with real arguments. Your fascinating theory on left wing racism tbh seems to only apply to people disagreeing with you. And, again, if you can't back it up, don't keep running back to it as an argument.

[Crux]

That's true for that past too, I mean about Lenin, Stalin, Mao. What I have said again and again that NONE AND NOTHING CAN SATISFY AN ARMCHAIR REVOLUTIONARY.
You should know.