"Multiculturalism has failed in Germany" - Angela Merkel

[Havet]

Old news (1-2 weeks old) but still worth sharing.

UKG76HF24_k



The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel: "lmmigrants should learn to speak German"


Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.


She said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work, and immigrants needed to do more to integrate - including learning German.


The comments come amid rising anti-immigration feeling in Germany.



A recent survey suggested more than 30% of people believed the country was "overrun by foreigners".


The study - by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation think-tank - also showed that roughly the same number thought that some 16 million of Germany's immigrants or people with foreign origins had come to the country for its social benefits.


Foreign workers

Mrs Merkel told a gathering of younger members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party on Saturday that at "the beginning of the 60s our country called the foreign workers to come to Germany and now they live in our country."


She added: "We kidded ourselves a while, we said: 'They won't stay, sometime they will be gone', but this isn't reality."

"And of course, the approach [to build] a multicultural [society] and to live side-by-side and to enjoy each other... has failed, utterly failed."


In her speech in Potsdam, however, the chancellor made clear that immigrants were welcome in Germany.

She specifically referred to recent comments by German President Christian Wulff who said that Islam was "part of Germany", like Christianity and Judaism.

Mrs Merkel said: "We should not be a country either which gives the impression to the outside world that those who don't speak German immediately or who were not raised speaking German are not welcome here."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

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Seems that there is bit of a contradiction going on. Where do you stand Angela? Do you want history to repeat itself and send all immigrants back "where they came from", or do you want to let them come in in order to appease the industry's demands? Why did you even bother making this speech?

Why do YOU think she made this speech?

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

I think she made this speech because she is Hitler reincarnate. And, of course to insight anti-immigrant sentiment, to distract from the economic crisis. She wouldn't want the strikes and riots of France and Greece to spread to Germany. This is the most classic immigrant scapegoating. It's not capitalism's fault; it's "multiculturalism." First of all, social theorists define culture as a set of competing narratives and practices, so already within one culture there is never this fascist wetdream of unity and cohesion. "They" have been in Europe for thousands of years.

Why must "they" learn German? People will learn it if it is useful to them, not because they want to serve the great fatherland and its füher. Racist fuckers need to die.

[Oswy]

I think she made this speech because she is Hitler reincarnate. And, of course to insight anti-immigrant sentiment, to distract from the economic crisis. She wouldn't want the strikes and riots of France and Greece to spread to Germany. This is the most classic immigrant scapegoating. It's not capitalism's fault; it's "multiculturalism." First of all, social theorists define culture as a set of competing narratives and practices, so already within one culture there is never this fascist wetdream of unity and cohesion. "They" have been in Europe for thousands of years.

Why must "they" learn German? People will learn it if it is useful to them, not because they want to serve the great fatherland and its füher. Racist fuckers need to die.

I agree. Any reasonably large society carries a variety of cultural forms, values, interests, etc, so when people attack "multiculturalism" what they're really attacking is "foreigners".

Just because I am white and my neighbour is white it doesn't mean we inhabit the same cultural worlds; not if he likes classical and I like death-metal, he is a Christian and I'm an atheist, he likes beef and I'm a veggie, he wears shirts and ties even when he's not at work and I wear hoodies, he's a capitalist and I'm a socialist.

[Fabrizio]

She has a point, you can't have a cohesive society when millions of people ignore the language and customs of the country they are in, and instead lead segregated ghettoized lives where the "community" considers itslef a law unto itself. See London 2010 as proof.

[#FF0000]

She has a point, you can't have a cohesive society when millions of people ignore the language and customs of the country they are in, and instead lead segregated ghettoized lives where the "community" considers itslef a law unto itself. See London 2010 as proof.

Except that's bullshit because ethnic neighborhoods and multilingual societies are nothing new. The United States was fucking famous for their Germantowns in the Midwest and Little Italies. The idea that people MUST integrate as soon as they get their citizenship or else society will rip itself apart is fucking stupid.

See Fly Pan Dulce's post.

[Oswy]

She has a point, you can't have a cohesive society when millions of people ignore the language and customs of the country they are in, and instead lead segregated ghettoized lives where the "community" considers itslef a law unto itself. See London 2010 as proof.

That's a false argument on two counts:

(1) Plenty of societies without recent immigration have variations in langauge and customs. As a Geordie from the north of England I have encountered scores of people from 'down south' who seriously struggle to understand me when I talk but this doesn't make me any less 'English' than them, or do you think it does?

(2) Plenty of societies carry a multiplicity of languages and customs but still constitute some degree of 'cohesion' as far as class-ridden societies can. India is the obvious example.

[#FF0000]

(2) Plenty of societies carry a multiplicity of languages and customs but still constitute some degree of 'cohesion' as far as class-ridden societies can.

There are 60+ languages spoken in just my local school district, and the only place cohesion's a problem is between locals and New Yorkers.

[ComradeMan]

Except that's bullshit because ethnic neighborhoods and multilingual societies are nothing new. The United States was fucking famous for their Germantowns in the Midwest and Little Italies. The idea that people MUST integrate as soon as they get their citizenship or else society will rip itself apart is fucking stupid.

See Fly Pan Dulce's post.

Although I don't necessarily agree with Fabrizio's point I think he is trying to say something else. I also think there are some differences too.

1. You have to take into account that the USA along with other colonial nations was built on emigration for the most part and nothing else. "Older" European nations, especially outside the big urban centres had emigration but slower and smaller scale. It varies from country to country too.

2. I think Fabrizio is talking about the perception of the "ghettoised" areas where perhaps a second generation grow up without say learning the national language etc. I don't think he means newly arrived people.

3. This is crap, but human nature is pretty crap too- it depends on how similar or different people are. For Germans, Dutch, English etc to integrate with each other in America is going to be a lot easier than it is going to be for non-white, non-christian, non-northern european groups. You could say this anywhere though- all kinds of things come into play, religion, food, language "shared culture" etc. It would be easier for an Italian to integrate in Spain than a Senegalese and so and so forth. It shouldn't be like this but it is.

4. I also think that European nations generally have much more of a concept of race/ethnicity being tied to language and nationality than colonial nations do (even if it is a social construct!). Whereas people talk of the English race or the Irish race it would be pretty hard to talk of the American race or the Brazilian race in the same way. I think the latter situations facilitates integration whereas the former can be an obstacle.

[Fabrizio]

The idea that people MUST integrate as soon as they get their citizenship or else society will rip itself apart is fucking stupid.


But there was definitely a process of integration in the USA and other countries. In Europe you have pretty much segregated communities that have been there for generations and still prefer to talk in "their language", and generally live in ghettoes and have minimal contact with the majority population.


(1) Plenty of societies without recent immigration have variations in langauge and customs. As a Geordie from the north of England I have encountered scores of people from 'down south' who seriously struggle to understand me when I talk but this doesn't make me any less 'English' than them, or do you think it does?

(2) Plenty of societies carry a multiplicity of languages and customs but still constitute some degree of 'cohesion' as far as class-ridden societies can. India is the obvious example.

Presumably if you moved to London you wouldn't for three generations live isolated from all native Londoners? And in any case, sorry, but India wouldn't be my model society, if that's where Europe is heading then Merkel has even more of a point.

[#FF0000]

1. You have to take into account that the USA along with other colonial nations was built on emigration for the most part and nothing else. "Older" European nations, especially outside the big urban centres had emigration but slower and smaller scale. It varies from country to country too.

Well yeah but what sense does it make to say that a country that is made entirety of immigrants from every single corner of the Earth can not only exist but become the only world superpower but Turkish immigrants who don't know German moving in fits and starts to Germany's is a threat to Germany's cohesive society?

[#FF0000]

You know what I -think- I understand where you're coming from, Fabrizio.

But in that case, the problem isn't that the immigrants aren't learning the language and integrating. The problem is that the immigrants are being othered and ghettoized.

[ComradeMan]

Well yeah but what sense does it make to say that a country that is made entirety of immigrants from every single corner of the Earth can not only exist but become the only world superpower but Turkish immigrants who don't know German moving in fits and starts to Germany's is a threat to Germany's cohesive society?

Well I think the situations are different. America was seen as the "golden land of oppurtunity" and although it wasn't necessarily so for many in reality, the idea of America meant that going to America was seen as a big chance. The Turkish (and Italian) gastarbeiter did not harbour such enthusiasm for their new land so to speak and did not become (were not allowed to become) Germans as such. They went to make enough money to eventually come home again if they could- many did.

But I don't think this is even about language to be honest- I hate to say it but I think it is about religion, primarily Islam. The two cultures seem worlds apart and integration sometimes seems to be impossible. On every level problems seem to arise. If you are a devout muslim it would be quite understandable to abhor what you perceive as "Western" immorality, pork eating, beer drinking (welcome to Germany :D), the role of women, issues around homophobia and so on.

Before people start howling Islamophobia- it's not- I am trying to see things from both sides- it's difficult and sensitive. Chinese people arguably come from a culture that is distant from Europe but I have never really heard of problems between Chinese and non-Chinese? Why? I think because there isn't the religious or cultural-religious obstacle to mount.

[#FF0000]

We didn't even make it a full page before some dumb, racist "Clash Of Civilizations" bullshit came up. Amazing.

[#FF0000]

Like did you even think about what you posted? You literally just said that immigrants don't want to integrate because they're muslim.

It's the same argument that's been used over and over and over and over and over and over and over and fucking over again for every fucking group that started to move to wherever else.

"they will ruin things because they are german"
"they will ruin things because they are irish"
"they will ruin things because they are jewish"
"they're catholic"
"they're foreign anarchists!"

But no, now that people say the same thing except with "muslims" as the new big scary monster, it's different this time.

Where the fuck have you people been for the past two centuries? Jesus.

[iwwforever]

I was in Germany when Merkel came to power. She is Germany's G.W. Bush, she surrounds herself with business people who want to take away worker's rights. They are also big into the military industrial complex. The social safety net is breaking down.

How did this happen? The people were sold on the idea that taxes would be lowered. Taxes were lowered for the corporations only. At the same time the people subsidized theses cuts when an additional 3% was added to the VAT tax.

Social services are being cut, Merkel and friends set time limits on unemployment benefits, replaced most of the apprenticeship programs with a 400 euro a month job program that they also use as a welfare to work program. The goal is to turn the people into wage slaves with no rights or benefits just like in the U.S.

The real blame goes to the selfish people who voted for Merkel and her associates. They sold out to get a few extra euros in their paycheck to throw away on useless consumer goods.

Now their children are screwed and the propaganda machine diverts their anger toward foreigners and guest workers.

[ComradeMan]

Like did you even think about what you posted? You literally just said that immigrants don't want to integrate because they're muslim.

It's the same argument that's been used over and over and over and over and over and over and over and fucking over again for every fucking group that started to move to wherever else.

"they will ruin things because they are german"
"they will ruin things because they are irish"
"they will ruin things because they are jewish"
"they're catholic"
"they're foreign anarchists!"

But no, now that people say the same thing except with "muslims" as the new big scary monster, it's different this time.

Where the fuck have you people been for the past two centuries? Jesus.

It's not a clash of civilisations thing- at all. It's about the problems of integration from both sides.

I am not defending xenophobia nor defending any religion. I am just trying to show what problems come up and why they might come up. These issues are far more complex than a crude binary analysis of racists on one side- victims on the other. There are a whole range of dynamics at play.

Instead of getting on your high horse, perhaps consider what I have said too- When Merkel starts saying that multiculturalism has failed- who do you think she means? Or did that one go over your head- she's obviously going to have more political sense (cynically) than to say Muslims isn't she?

If you actually sought to look at things objectively- we already seemed to agree that it was easier for some groups to integrate than others- the question was what leads to that?

Look at both sides

European "I don't like these people, they never come to the bar and have a beer and they look down at us".

Muslim immigrant "These people drink together as their main socio-cultural
point of contact- how can I as a muslim participate?".

That was the point..... There's no racism and there's no antagonism.


My personal opinion- well- racists and reactionaries exist on both sides. Most people are economic immigrants and then are already disadvantaged by the class-perception of their being poor and thus "inferior" this, coupled with the other factors leads to antagonism from one side and quite understandably self-isolation from the other. Human "tribal" nature- or "ape troop" nature? It sucks but unfortunately that is how a lot of the world works and if we cannot analyse a situation without being accused of prejudice it doesn't help.

"You literally just said that immigrants don't want to integrate because they're muslim."

I literally did not say that at all- I underlined what some of the difficulties surrounding issues of integration might be taking into account a religious background and compared two groups of people. You can't just reduce and reword things like that.

[#FF0000]

except that she didn't say multiculturalism failed and what everyone needs is a nationwide day of ice breaking activities. She said it's because they didn't speak German and weren't becoming "German" enough.

[ZeroNowhere]

except that she didn't say multiculturalism failed and what everyone needs is a nationwide day of ice breaking activities. She said it's because they didn't speak German and weren't becoming "German" enough.
Also, Christian values. Don't forget the Christian values.

But yeah, I think that people who don't speak Marathi have no place in Maharashtra. Speaking of which, all people in Singapore ought to be able to speak Singlish without an accent.

[lines]

Except that's bullshit because ethnic neighborhoods and multilingual societies are nothing new. The United States was fucking famous for their Germantowns in the Midwest and Little Italies. The idea that people MUST integrate as soon as they get their citizenship or else society will rip itself apart is fucking stupid.

See Fly Pan Dulce's post.

I don't have an opinion on what the German president said but as for this point you make are you sure that observations about America should be applied to foreign countries?

[Reznov]

Why must "they" learn German? People will learn it if it is useful to them, not because they want to serve the great fatherland and its füher. Racist fuckers need to die.

Umm, just saying. They are living in Germany. It would only make sense for them to learn to speak the language so you know, they can communicate with other Germans.

[ComradeMan]

except that she didn't say multiculturalism failed and what everyone needs is a nationwide day of ice breaking activities. She said it's because they didn't speak German and weren't becoming "German" enough.

What do you think becoming "German" enough actually means? Come on Best Mod, you know how politicians say nothing and yet say everything and vice-versa. Speaking German- well, perhaps- if it's true- there may be an issue. But as for the other comment- what does becoming "German" really mean? Why would becoming "German" be a problem for some and not others? I see this as a sneaky political attack on Muslims, but then I am branded the reactionary:confused::confused::confused:

[Havet]

Umm, just saying. They are living in Germany. It would only make sense for them to learn to speak the language so you know, they can communicate with other Germans.

That's not really the issue...

nW20EMJr6o4




"Oh, they don't speak the language"

Then don't talk to them. Simple. My neighbour has lived 8 years next to me, i've never said a word to that ashole. Why do I care if he's selling *insert immigrant food here* at the park?

[Nolan]

This is the same xenophobic rhetoric the right here is using toward Latinos. Either they're lazy and they just want welfare or they're taking all our jobs and don't want to learn English.

BTW, everyone negrep ComradeMan.

[¿Que?]

Race baiting and islamophobia to cover up world economic crisis. I see it sort of like shooting someone down in cold blood, then making a grand proclamation that gun control has failed. It's totally insulting. But you know what? The muslim's and other disadvantaged people may get mad about this...and that's a good thing.

[Ligeia]

The muslim's and other disadvantaged people may get mad about this...and that's a good thing.
Or others really start to believe such comments (as the one by Merkel)?
This on the other hand, is not so good.
Living in Germany, I sense (have seen,listened, talked to people) that disadvantaged classes actually believe this stuff and get caught by it.
But also upper-class bourgeoisie do believe this and much more e.g. poor people are all fat because they're lazy (which is also something some politician has said some time and which has been spread by the media).
Sometimes it seems tensions are rising (purposefully or not but surely for distraction) but I'm not sure about their directions.

[Ele'ill]

What do you think becoming "German" enough actually means? Come on Best Mod, you know how politicians say nothing and yet say everything and vice-versa. Speaking German- well, perhaps- if it's true- there may be an issue. But as for the other comment- what does becoming "German" really mean? Why would becoming "German" be a problem for some and not others? I see this as a sneaky political attack on Muslims, but then I am branded the reactionary:confused::confused::confused:


Becoming german on whose terms and by what guidelines

[¿Que?]

Or others really start to believe such comments (as the one by Merkel)?
This on the other hand, is not so good.
Living in Germany, I sense (have seen,listened, talked to people) that disadvantaged classes actually believe this stuff and get caught by it.
But also upper-class bourgeoisie do believe this and much more e.g. poor people are all fat because they're lazy (which is also something some politician has said some time and which has been spread by the media).
Sometimes it seems tensions are rising (purposefully or not but surely for distraction) but I'm not sure about their directions.
I seriously doubt you will find disadvantaged people accepting a narrative of their own inferiority (intellectual, moral, cultural). What you might get is a lot of internalized racism, and overcompensation like Latinos/as in the U.S. For the most part, Latinos have a strong sense of community and self worth, but imo, because of internalized racism and "believing" their inferiority, albeit on a subconscious level rather than a la Uncle Ruckus (Boondocks reference) they tend to adopt a lot of the values and cultural traits of their oppressors, such as protestantism, belief in the transformative power of entrepreneurship, and maybe worst of all, an ethics of over-work.

[Ligeia]

I seriously doubt you will find disadvantaged people accepting a narrative of their own inferiority (intellectual, moral, cultural).
I was talking about non-muslim ,say, working class or unemployed people who believe this racist comments while not reacting to other things like their own situation (e.g. cuts and privatization in social services).
So generally speaking, such comments by politicans fuel racism among those who are not targeted by these comments.

[ComradeMan]

Especially to redamerica, but not only.....


I was actually defending a muslim point of view in seeing this (Merkel etc) as a veiled and cleverly worded political attack on muslims and trying to see what may be the causes behind it.... Duh.

[Fabrizio]

As has been siad, the truth is not just that immigrants are pushed away, but also that some, and some groups in paritcular, isolate themselves. There are of course racists on the Europeans ide too - this is the fact with any country. Try being an impoverished immigrant any Middle Eastern or African or South American* country, where the immigrants to Europe come from, and see the discrimination you face. Then see what they do you if you start preaching death to their society and calling for war against their way of life! You'd "disappear" quite soon. Unlike in Europe where the right to free speech is respected, and immigrants get housing, welfare, etc.

I am opposed to anti-immigrant racism, I think if someone works hard they deserve a fair break, whatever country you happen to have been born into. But if you want to partake in the advantages of western society you also have to take on those responsibiltiies, which means respect for democracy, respect for the culture you're moving into. Otherwise it's just a case of exporting the very "push factors" which led to immigration in the first place.

*And I know about South America, as I said before I was born there and my family moved to London when I was 3, and we feel completely accepted here, in a predominantly white British area.

[Widerstand]

I was in Germany when Merkel came to power. She is Germany's G.W. Bush, she surrounds herself with business people who want to take away worker's rights..

Since years, Germany has steadily decreasing wages, which is part of why other EU states (eg. Greece) got hit so hard by the crisis. As it is, the EU single market is one of the best things to happen to German national capital.

And that's not because of Merkel, it's because of Schröder's Agenda 2010. Or as we like to say here: "Wer hat uns verraten? Die Sozialdemokraten! Wer war mit dabei? Die Grüne Partei!" ("Who betrayed us? The Social Democrats! Who was with them? The Green party!")

[#FF0000]

I am opposed to anti-immigrant racism, I think if someone works hard they deserve a fair break, whatever country you happen to have been born into. But if you want to partake in the advantages of western society you also have to take on those responsibiltiies, which means respect for democracy, respect for the culture you're moving into. Otherwise it's just a case of exporting the very "push factors" which led to immigration in the first place.

What exactly does "respect for the culture you're moving into" entail? Specifically?

EDIT: Actually, no, fuck it. Why do immigrants have to respect the culture at all? Why do they have to respect democracy? Why do they have to speak the language?

I certainly don't respect America or American culture. I don't respect what passes for democracy in America. What is so special about me being born here that makes it okay for me to be critical of the country I'm living in and what it stands for, but not an immigrant?

[WendigoGuerilla]

You know what I -think- I understand where you're coming from, Fabrizio.

But in that case, the problem isn't that the immigrants aren't learning the language and integrating. The problem is that the immigrants are being othered and ghettoized.

The problem with foreign immigrants is their usage as a abundance of cheap labor by wealthy aristocrats that refuse to raise the living conditions of people within nations that have been around for countless generations before the arrival of such foreigners.

The wealthy aristocrat does not care about the plight of the cultural racial indigenous nor does he care about the plight of the newly arrived immigrants either because often enough the aristocrat will set both groups together against each other as a distraction so that his own activities as the provocateur will go unnoticed where both groups don't become all the wiser in the process.

However if we are going to take anti - racism to it's maximum we then cannot ignore the dwindling populations of racially indigenous cultural Europeans of many nationalities or ethnicities with their interests and struggles since to do so would be the allowance of a specific type of racism to persist in going unnoticed.



Anti racism should be upheld for all races, cultures, and ethnicities even ones that specifically might have unpopular appeals to them based upon past histories.

Multiculturalism in western civilization is not a phenomena anymore that happens on it's own where people from all spectrums embrace it by their own self autonomy but rather today's multiculturalism is often enough state sponsored and a co opt of government activities within government federal labor departments to lower the wages of the lower working class altogether by constant influx of immigration.

The moment that a working class comes together discussing worker's rights and political association is the moment when the government brings in vast armies of foreign immigrants for the usage of cheap labor so that any lower working class populance that has been around for many generations becomes displaced my newly arrivals of those who will do their work for much less and more importantly without any kind of social rebellion.

This is really all that today's modern multiculturalism really amounts to and nothing more.

My solution to racism and multiculturalism is quite simple:

A) Get rid of state sponsored multiculturalism which is really just a pretend show because it's goal is always that of a abundance of cheap labor by newly arrived immigrants.

B) With the destruction of a centralized government and economical system all races, cultures, ethnicities, or nationalities would then be able to form their own self autonomated enclaves where every group would be able to live side by side of each other independently without the friction of state sponsored multiculturalism that we have today.

[#FF0000]

Wendigo tell me about racism against white people i really just can't wait to hear about it.


B) With the destruction of a centralized government and economical system all races, cultures, ethnicities, or nationalities would then be able to form their own self autonomated enclaves where every group would be able to live side by side of each other independently without the friction of state sponsored multiculturalism that we have today.

Oh so you're a National Anarchist?

[WendigoGuerilla]

Wendigo tell me about racism against white people i really just can't wait to hear about it.



Oh so you're a National Anarchist?

Are you saying that reverse discrimination or racism is impossible?

Are you denying the dwindling population of many western European nations of indigenous ethnicities that can be matched with even the most unbiased statistics?

I'm not really a national anarchist because I don't really support nationalism where infact the multiculturalism I like to think of is where everybody has their own territories or cultural enclaves ruled independently by various people's own self autonomy but live side by side each other diversely in a cooperative social collectivity.

[#FF0000]

Are you saying that reverse discrimination or racism is impossible?

Are you denying the dwindling population of many western European nations of indigenous ethnicities that can be matched with even the most unbiased statistics?

I'm not really a national anarchist because I don't really support nationalism where infact the multiculturalism I like to think of is where everybody has their own territories or cultural enclaves ruled independently by various people's own self autonomy but live side by side each other diversely in a cooperative social collectivity.

Yeah I'm saying that racism against white people in a white dominated in society is impossible.

Also go ahead and link me some of those unbiased statistics, boyo.

[WendigoGuerilla]

Yeah I'm saying that racism against white people in a white dominated in society is impossible.

Also go ahead and link me some of those unbiased statistics, boyo.

Well that's interesting considering in many colonial European nations and European nations themselves there is a increase of specific territories within those nations where whites/ europids are not a majority at all where infact they make up a classification as being a racial minority in those said specified territories added with the figure that the older generations of that specific race are about to die off pretty soon which doesn't leave much of a majority on their part for a label.

Also keep in mind I'm not supporting nationalism here.

[#FF0000]

Yeah because having a simple majority dictates political power. Try again, kid.

Still waiting on those stats, btw.

[#FF0000]

Also keep in mind I'm not supporting nationalism here.

"It's not nationalism bro! It's just ethnic tribalism!!!!!!"

[Decolonize The Left]

Well that's interesting considering in many colonial European nations and European nations themselves there is a increase of specific territories within those nations where whites/ europids are not a majority at all where infact they make up a classification as being a racial minority in those said specified territories added with the figure that the older generations of that specific race are about to die off pretty soon which doesn't leave much of a majority on their part for a label.

This isn't an argument, or if it is, it's an extremely poor one.

Racism (and sexism for that matter) is institutionalized within all European states just as it is within the US. The fact that minorities turn out to be majorities within a given geographical context means absolutely nothing. You can have 10 black people and 1 white person in South Carolina, but there isn't any reverse racism in play.

So you can see that the numbers game indicates absolutely nothing in relation to socio-political structures.

- August

[WendigoGuerilla]

Yeah because having a simple majority dictates political power. Try again, kid.

Still waiting on those stats, btw.



Texas

white: 71.4%

(Non hispanic whites: 47.8%)


Non- hispanic whites are 47.8% and decreasing.






black or African American: 11.5%
Native American : 0.5%
Asian: 3.4%
Pacific Islander: 0.1%
Some other race: 11.3%
Two or more races: 1.9%
Hispanic or Latino (of any race): 35.9%





Please also keep in mind that it was not my attention to focus on race in my post as I was trying to illustrate how both the indigenous within nations along with immigrants are increasing pawns of wealthy aristocrats in which both are pawns to capitalism in the marginalization of socio political representation amongst the lower working class.



Yeah because having a simple majority dictates political power.


I see. So the simple answer to multiculturalism and racism is that in order to end racism we need about six million immigrants sent to China half of which are immigrants from Africa,Central America, and Europe so that no simple majority of any class exists within any nation in order to pacify all populations so that any semblance of majority identity does not exist at all.

Am I getting you correctly? :blushing:

I wonder what the Chinese would think of such a proposal.

[#FF0000]

I see. So the simple answer to multiculturalism and racism is that in order to end racism we need about six million immigrants sent to China half of which are immigrants from Africa,Central America, and Europe so that no simple majority of any class exists within any nation in order to pacify all populations so that any semblance of majority identity does not exist at all.

Am I getting you correctly? :blushing:

No I was being sarcastic. How many people are white or not in a geographic location doesn't have anything to do with racism in that area. Refer to AugustWest's post back there.

And racism or anti-racism has absolutely nothing to do with "preserving" anybody's race. Anti-racism is opposing systematic discrimination and privilege based on race, which, I should remind you, is strictly a social construct and has no basis in biology.

[lines]

How do you define privilege, privilege is a vague term and can mean many things. By privilege do you mean money? DO you mean a variety of things? If more than one thing can you please list.

[#FF0000]

How do you define privilege, privilege is a vague term and can mean many things. By privilege do you mean money? DO you mean a variety of things? If more than one thing can you please list.

Can you name a single thing that could be considered a privilege that should be given to anybody based on race?

[Decolonize The Left]

How do you define privilege, privilege is a vague term and can mean many things. By privilege do you mean money? DO you mean a variety of things? If more than one thing can you please list.

Privilege is "A peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor; a right or immunity not enjoyed by others or by all; special enjoyment of a good, or exemption from an evil or burden; a prerogative; advantage; franchise; preferential treatment."

You can see that it is, by definition, a rather vague term in the sense that it offers no specifics. What it does mean is a classification in regards to what one person (people) receives as opposed to others.

The point we are trying to make is that privilege in itself isn't an issue, it's how it is decided which matters. For example, someone with a life-threatening condition (such as a severed limb) deserves privilege in a medical scenario over someone with a common cold. In this scenario, the severity of the injury/illness is what decides who gets treatment first (you'll note I didn't use who is covered by insurance, or some other factor).

Does this make sense?

- August

[lines]

I am simply asking people who are asserting that race based privileges exist to name those specific privileges.

Class based privileged exist: greater wealth, access to more resources as a result of that wealth... resources such as education and a cleaner environment than the poor. Access to greater nutrition as a result of that wealth.

I am not aware of any race based privileges, the use of the term white privilege ignores the plight of the working class whites who share a similar lot to the working class of the blacks and hispanics and other races of that class.

I named specifics. Can someone name specifics please

[WendigoGuerilla]

No I was being sarcastic. How many people are white or not in a geographic location doesn't have anything to do with racism in that area. Refer to AugustWest's post back there.

And racism or anti-racism has absolutely nothing to do with "preserving" anybody's race. Anti-racism is opposing systematic discrimination and privilege based on race, which, I should remind you, is strictly a social construct and has no basis in biology.



No I was being sarcastic.


Ah, I see.



How many people are white or not in a geographic location doesn't have anything to do with racism in that area. Refer to AugustWest's post back there.


No it doesn't but it does illustrate a growing polarity of which shows a dwindling majority that doesn't specifically have privileges that it is alluded to have.

Infact by becoming a increasing minority it is possible for such a population to even become marginalized in the process which was the reversal I was speaking of.



And racism or anti-racism has absolutely nothing to do with "preserving" anybody's race. Anti-racism is opposing systematic discrimination and privilege based on race, which, I should remind you, is strictly a social construct and has no basis in biology.


Well it just seems you are anti identity politics altogether where for whatever reasons you have this sort of mindset built in defiance against those that embrace or adhere to it.

[I did not know it was necessary to be anti identity politics in order to be a anarchist, marxist, communist or what have you.]


At any rate although culture is a social construct culture itself is also biological in that culture refers to cultivation of which can only be done on a biological scale.

If we live in a era of racial nihilism in that specifically race does not matter where in the context of nihilism nothing matters than I suppose it doesn't matter also if one embraces identity politics either.

I don't embrace identity politics myself in that I'm a thoroughly indifferent either way however I'm not going to judge somebody with a gavel that does and tell them that they are inherently 'wrong' to do so given that culture often enough is inseperable from identity politics.

[Decolonize The Left]

I am simply asking people who are asserting that race based privileges exist to name those specific privileges.

Class based privileged exist: greater wealth, access to more resources as a result of that wealth... resources such as education and a cleaner environment than the poor. Access to greater nutrition as a result of that wealth.

I am not aware of any race based privileges, the use of the term white privilege ignores the plight of the working class whites who share a similar lot to the working class of the blacks and hispanics and other races of that class.

I names specifics. Can someone name specifics please

African-Americans make up only 12% of the US population, but they represent 34% of the executions. Source (http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/).
Then there's racial profiling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling), basic racial discrimination (http://socialstratification.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/racial-discrimination-in-the-us-evidence-from-the-2000-hud-study/), and subtle racial discrimination (http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/cta-tattler/2010/01/suit-to-allege-racial-discrimination-in-funding-of-cta-vs-metra.html).

Now how does this relate to privilege? A person born African-American does nothing to merit, or not merit, being judged according to the color of their skin. Likewise, a white person the same. Yet the white person is privileged simply due to that color and despite the lack of merit because they are born into a society which is, and has been, controlled and run by white people. Hence the white person is privileged.

- August

[WendigoGuerilla]

African-Americans make up only 12% of the US population, but they represent 34% of the executions. Source.
Then there's racial profiling, basic racial discrimination, and subtle racial discrimination.

Now how does this relate to privilege? A person born African-American does nothing to merit, or not merit, being judged according to the color of their skin. Likewise, a white person the same. Yet the white person is privileged simply due to that color and despite the lack of merit because they are born into a society which is, and has been, controlled and run by white people. Hence the white person is privileged.

- August

So what are we supposed to do about that exactly?

Are we to make it where no nation on earth has any specific majority presence in terms of culture, race, ethnicity, and history in order to make the playing field more egalitarian?

Should we outlaw race as a cultural meaning within the relative context of culture?

Are we to get rid of all identity politics altogether if it represents a majority?

Should we outlaw identity politics?

Are we to get rid of the concept of nationhood altogether?

I don't presume to know why most of the executions within the United States are of black men but, how can we presume it is because of some sort of inherent racism within the nation?


Help me out here so that I can understand.....................

[lines]

@August West

OK well your saying that black people are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement. Thats definitely a specific. But what I wonder is is that based on race or class. Are they targetted because they are black or are they in that situation as a result of poverty. And yes black people are often times poorer than whites and that is probably the result of a legacy of past racist laws. At this point though when racist laws have been abolished how do you best deal with these class inequalities? I would suggest that class based inequalities be addressed as an issue of social class rather than race. Efforts to improve the lot of lower classes would help black people because they make up a large chunk of the lower class and so having class based programs, programs based on ones economic status is the way to go. Race based affirmative action is not good because it discriminates against people on the basis of race and gender. A program based on socio-economic status would disproportionately benefit blacks and other non-whites without discriminating against whites.... it would even help the whites of the lower classes

[Decolonize The Left]

So what are we supposed to do about that exactly?

Are we to make it where no nation on earth has any specific majority presence in terms of culture, race, ethnicity, and history in order to make the playing field more egalitarian?

Should we outlaw race as a cultural meaning within the relative context of culture?

Are we to get rid of all identity politics altogether if it represents a majority?

Should we outlaw identity politics?

Are we to get rid of the concept of nationhood altogether?

I don't presume to know why most of the executions within the United States are of black men but, how can we presume it is because of some sort of inherent racism within the nation?


Help me out here so that I can understand.....................

I'm beginning to think that you're here to troll.

Regardless, I'll bite.
I, as a white male, am privileged by being birthed as such. I have an advantage over my minority fellows in terms of employment, pay rates, police activity, etc... I also have an advantage over my female counterparts simply because I'm a man.

So what can I do about the institutionalized racism/sexism which provides me with this privilege?
First, I can understand it.
Second, I can acknowledge it. I didn't start it, I can't end it. But I know it's there.
Third, I can support those who seek to end it. Men will not liberate women. White people won't liberate black people. But I will support women and minorities in their pursuit of liberation. I will not consciously support the systems of privilege to which I am a part of. I will not consciously support a climate of racism and sexism.

In short, you can do the following: don't be a racist and a sexist. Don't be a bigot. And when you see someone who is, let them know why it's not acceptable.

- August

[Decolonize The Left]

@August West

OK well your saying that black people are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement. Thats definitely a specific. But what I wonder is is that based on race or class. Are they targetted because they are black or are they in that situation as a result of poverty. And yes black people are often times poorer than whites and that is probably the result of a legacy of past racist laws. At this point though when racist laws have been abolished how do you best deal with these class inequalities? I would suggest that class based inequalities be addressed as an issue of social class rather than race. Efforts to improve the lot of lower classes would help black people because they make up a large chunk of the lower class and so having class based programs, programs based on ones economic status is the way to go. Race based affirmative action is not good because it discriminates against people on the basis of race and gender. A program based on socio-economic status would disproportionately benefit blacks and other non-whites without discriminating against whites.... it would even help the whites of the lower classes

Yet when you simply turn to the economic aspect of discrimination, you ignore the racial reality.

So let me say that I agree that targeting the working class for reforms would largely benefit African-Americans. But this effort would effectively white-wash (pun intended) the racism at play. Identifying and acknowledging the institutionalized racism within the US is vitally important to oppressed peoples.

You cannot simply say it's economic because it isn't:
"In June 2009, black unemployment (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t02.htm) was 15.3 % compared to an 8.8% unemployment rate for whites. Do blacks simply not take the initiative that whites do to find work? Studies indicate that, in actuality, discrimination (http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200304/discrimination-latisha) likely contributes to the black-white unemployment gap. In 2003, researchers at the University of Chicago (http://collegeapps.about.com/od/collegeprofiles/p/U-Chicago.htm) and MIT (http://collegeapps.about.com/od/collegeprofiles/p/MIT_Profile.htm) released a study involving 5,000 fake resumes that found that 10% of those featuring “Caucasian-sounding” names were called back compared to just 6.7% of those featuring “black-sounding” names. Moreover, resumes featuring names such as Tamika and Aisha were called back just 5% and 2% of the time. The skill-level of the faux black candidates made no impact on callback rates." Source (http://racerelations.about.com/od/understandingrac1/a/WhatIsRacism.htm).

- August

[WendigoGuerilla]

@August West

OK well your saying that black people are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement. Thats definitely a specific. But what I wonder is is that based on race or class. Are they targetted because they are black or are they in that situation as a result of poverty. And yes black people are often times poorer than whites and that is probably the result of a legacy of past racist laws. At this point though when racist laws have been abolished how do you best deal with these class inequalities? I would suggest that class based inequalities be addressed as an issue of social class rather than race. Efforts to improve the lot of lower classes would help black people because they make up a large chunk of the lower class and so having class based programs, programs based on ones economic status is the way to go. Race based affirmative action is not good because it discriminates against people on the basis of race and gender. A program based on socio-economic status would disproportionately benefit blacks and other non-whites without discriminating against whites.... it would even help the whites of the lower classes

We could actually say that a proportionate number of all different kinds of races are disproportionate representations of the lower working class being targeted by law enforcement because it is the desperate lower working class more specific those chronically unemployed without access to resources within a given society that are more proned to criminal behavior largely because they aren't given much of a choice due to the level of oppressive conditions that they are forced to live in.



August West

I'm beginning to think that you're here to troll.


Au contraire.....This was the first thread that caught my attention as a new member of this forum of which this is the first thread for me to post in.

I actually have much more interests other than race, multiculturalism, or Germany for that matter of which can be found on this forum it's just that I haven't got around to looking at the rest of the place yet since I just recently registered of today.

Please don't fit that neatly packaged internet slang label on me just yet before hearing me out.


Regardless, I'll bite.
I, as a white male, am privileged by being birthed as such. I have an advantage over my minority fellows in terms of employment, pay rates, police activity, etc... I also have an advantage over my female counterparts simply because I'm a man.



Well you see that's interesting because I'm a white male as well of which I just got over six months of being homeless last year where currently I'm unemployed probally getting ready to be kicked out onto the streets again because I won't be able to afford my rent the next couple of months in the middle of winter mind you where currently I'm chronically unemployed living off of food pantries from charities as a person forced to live on other people's charity because I have no means to survive on my own of which this computer I'm typing on is merely a remnant of what I owned couple years ago where I'm currently piggy backing off of a public internet provider.

Earlier today I was contemplating how to keep warm being that I won't be able to afford heat during the winter time and so on..............

So where's my privilege because I surely wish I had some right about now............

As for female counter parts.......... I'll leave that for another discussion because this conversation is complicated enough not to mention I look like the self professed heretic speaking from a point of view that I take it is not too well set with others here.






So what can I do about the institutionalized racism/sexism which provides me with this privilege?
First, I can understand it.
Second, I can acknowledge it. I didn't start it, I can't end it. But I know it's there.
Third, I can support those who seek to end it. Men will not liberate women. White people won't liberate black people. But I will support women and minorities in their pursuit of liberation. I will not consciously support the systems of privilege to which I am a part of. I will not consciously support a climate of racism and sexism.

In short, you can do the following: don't be a racist and a sexist. Don't be a bigot. And when you see someone who is, let them know why it's not acceptable.

- August

If you look at those imprisoned or represented in crime they are the lower class income workers of all races not specifically targeted by any specific race persay but more targeted by their place within the hierarchy of society and the economical status that derives from within it.

[lines]

I agree that various social classes have certain ethnic compositions but it's better to approach the issue on a level strictly of social class because to use race as any sort of criteria for what one is doing is a form of racism and will foment racial hostilities.

I think that if the issue of race is dealt with it should be approached strictly on the cultural level, the level of discussion and that race based affirmative action should be avoided.

If the lower classes are predominately non-white then predominately non-whites would be helped by purely class based affirmative action but it wouldnt specifically discriminate against whites.

Affirmative action definitely should be class rather than race based.

I mean maybe I can see race being something one is focused on when trying to stop police from racial profiling but in that case its not a form of racial discrimination. Its anti-discrimination. Race based affirmative action is discriminatory

[Decolonize The Left]

Au contraire.....This was the first thread that caught my attention as a new member of this forum of which this is the first thread for me to post in.

I actually have much more interests other than race, multiculturalism, or Germany for that matter of which can be found on this forum it's just that I haven't got around to looking at the rest of the place yet since I just recently registered of today.

Please don't fit that neatly packaged internet slang label on me just yet before hearing me out.

I'm happy to hear you out. The fact that I've engaged you thus far should be testimony to that. My point is that I've been a mod on this forum for a while, and an admin for a little while as well, and when someone joins and posts in a thread where it appears as though they are dismissing racism, it looks like they're trolling. Surely this makes some sense?


Well you see that's interesting because I'm a white male as well of which I just got over six months of being homeless last year where currently I'm unemployed probally getting ready to be kicked out onto the streets again because I won't be able to afford my rent the next couple of months in the middle of winter mind you where currently I'm chronically unemployed living off of food pantries from charities as a person forced to live on other people's charity because I have no means to survive on my own of which this computer I'm typing on is merely a remnant of what I owned couple years ago where I'm currently piggy backing off of a public internet provider.

Earlier today I was contemplating how to keep warm being that I won't be able to afford heat during the winter time and so on..............

So where's my privilege because I surely wish I had some right about now............

I'm sorry about your condition. That said, if you can't distinguish between racial privilege and economic privilege, then perhaps that's what you need to ask about.


As for female counter parts.......... I'll leave that for another discussion because this conversation is complicated enough not to mention I look like the self professed heretic speaking from a point of view that I take it is not too well set with others here.

I'm not sure what you mean. My previous post was entirely coherent and I raised the issue of sexism and gender privilege quite well.


If you look at those imprisoned or represented in crime they are the lower class income workers of all races not specifically targeted by any specific race persay but more targeted by their place within the hierarchy of society and the economical status that derives from within it.

This is simply an unjustified claim.

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, I am certain that economic status has an enormous amount to do with the situation of this country's prison system. What I am holding to is your constant and unrelenting persistence in dismissing race (and possibly gender) as a factor.

- August

[WendigoGuerilla]

Yet when you simply turn to the economic aspect of discrimination, you ignore the racial reality.

So let me say that I agree that targeting the working class for reforms would largely benefit African-Americans. But this effort would effectively white-wash (pun intended) the racism at play. Identifying and acknowledging the institutionalized racism within the US is vitally important to oppressed peoples.

You cannot simply say it's economic because it isn't:
"In June 2009, black unemployment was 15.3 % compared to an 8.8% unemployment rate for whites. Do blacks simply not take the initiative that whites do to find work? Studies indicate that, in actuality, discrimination likely contributes to the black-white unemployment gap. In 2003, researchers at the University of Chicago and MIT released a study involving 5,000 fake resumes that found that 10% of those featuring “Caucasian-sounding” names were called back compared to just 6.7% of those featuring “black-sounding” names. Moreover, resumes featuring names such as Tamika and Aisha were called back just 5% and 2% of the time. The skill-level of the faux black candidates made no impact on callback rates." Source.

- August




2010


Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rate for adult men (9.8
percent), adult women (8.0 percent), teenagers (26.0 percent), whites
(8.7 percent), blacks (16.1 percent), and Hispanics (12.4 percent) showed
little or no change in September. The jobless rate for Asians was 6.4
percent, not seasonally adjusted. (See tables A-1, A-2, and A-3.)


Taken from bls.gov



Why is it that there are less Asians unemployed than caucasians in contrast?

Are they just being oppressively racist against whites as a group as Asians? :bored:

Look with a diversified amount of any number of people within a country your going to encounter randomities within numbers where between five or six groups your going to have one on the opposite side/spectrum of another randomly with the rest randomly set in the middle representing somthing in statistics.

Statistics can illustrate alot of random polarities and shifts where sometimes people can read too much into the lines especially ideologically in that it's not impossible to manipulate statistics for a ideology for a implied ideological result.

Why is it that hispanics by the same token seem to be a just bit more employed than blacks within the United States?

Do you think there is a conspiracy there?



I'm happy to hear you out. The fact that I've engaged you thus far should be testimony to that. My point is that I've been a mod on this forum for a while, and an admin for a little while as well, and when someone joins and posts in a thread where it appears as though they are dismissing racism, it looks like they're trolling. Surely this makes some sense?


I appreciate that you have let me explain myself.

Alot of websites will kick a person off for saying somthing that goes against the grain of a majority's opinion even if it is slight in which case since this forum has not done so speaks nicely of you and the staff here.

If it makes you feel any better in knowing as a white male I'm a miscegenating one of which I certainly couldn't call myself a nationalist in any degree let alone a racial one so now you know my orientation and affiliation to some degree, however with that being said I'm largely indifferent to the topic where I see it more distractionary of a much larger picture where from the distraction of the subject often enough leaves the more complex issues go unnoticed.

Even still I have no animosity towards those that embrace identity politics because there is nothing in the universe that specifically says that those who do are inherently 'bad' for doing so in that traditional cultural communities typically embrace identity politics as it relates in culture relatively to which I'm sympathetic because not everybody can be indifferent or racially nihilistic on the topic of race/culture since nihilism is a double bladed sword in the support and non support of a subject or item of which somthing can go either way where the addage of nihilism is that nothing matters.



I'm sorry about your condition. That said, if you can't distinguish between racial privilege and economic privilege, then perhaps that's what you need to ask about.




If there is racial privilege, why am I not enjoying it as a white male? Why is it that several other poor white Americans are not enjoying it?

I'm sure poor English, Italians, Germans, Poles, Croats, and French exist in Europe all of which can be found to be caucasian in race.

Why aren't they getting any privilege based upon their race alone?

My race for me specifically isn't a golden key to any gate that's for sure as I've been pretty misfortunate most of my life.


I'm not sure what you mean. My previous post was entirely coherent and I raised the issue of sexism and gender privilege quite well.


Well in all fairness this thread specifically has to do with multiculturalism, Germany, and rising concerns of identity politics versus multiculturalism in contrast where I didn't feel it appropiate to discuss anything other than the subject at hand.

Perhaps in another thread sometime I will discuss gender politics just not here.



This is simply an unjustified claim.

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, I am certain that economic status has an enormous amount to do with the situation of this country's prison system. [I]What I am holding to is your constant and unrelenting persistence in dismissing race (and possibly gender) as a factor.

- August

My problem with your prison example is that it somehow construes a image that there is a vast coordinated effort by whites within the United States that it almost posseses a level of conspiracy on a massive scale in discerning a large majority of blacks in prisons.

As I said earlier I do not know why they are disproportionately represented within the prison system but I do not find it useful to just assume there is this wide encompassing racism on the subject before getting all the facts on the subject. Not only that but if there was a conspiracy that would mean the majority of whites within the United States hold specific prejudicial racial attitudes towards others [Specifically blacks in this context.] somthing of which just sounds ludricrous.

I agree that blatant hatred of other people for their ethnicity and cultures exists where it can be detrimental to unity or social collectivity but I do not believe it is the reason towards all major problems.

[#FF0000]

If there is racial privilege, why am I not enjoying it as a white male? Why is it that several other poor white Americans are not enjoying it?

I'm sure poor English, Italians, Germans, Poles, Croats, and French exist in Europe all of which can be found to be caucasian in race.

Why aren't they getting any privilege based upon their race alone?

My race for me specifically isn't a golden key to any gate that's for sure as I've been pretty misfortunate most of my life.

You might not be experiencing it individually but statistically, white people are better off than black people. Even when they're poor, they're more likely to get more out of social services.

I mean seriously, as much as I think class is the main issue, you just simply can't deny that being poor and black has a lot more potential to be a lot worse than being poor and white.

[#FF0000]

My problem with your prison example is that it somehow construes a image that there is a vast coordinated effort by whites within the United States that it almost posseses a level of conspiracy on a massive scale in discerning a large majority of blacks in prisons.

No it doesn't. Institutional racism doesn't necessarily have to be something people are conscious of. I mean, it's fucking clear that racism exists here. Part of the reason black people are over-represented in the prisons are because of wildly unequal enforcement of drug laws. Statistics state that white and black people use drugs at the same rate, but there is way more enforcement aimed at the poorest neighborhoods, which very, very often turn out to be neighborhoods in which the majority of residents are black.

Be honest. Have you ever actually looked into issues of racism at all?

[ComradeMan]

This article seems to be talking about these issues in Britain, makes for some interesting reading.

The cultural breakdown of Britain

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/index.php/news/content/view/full/96876

Over the past 13 years the relentless promotion of liberal Western values and multiculturalism in Britain, mirrored by the absence of an internationalist and civil rights counterweight, has handed a gift to the far-right which today it is cashing in.

[WendigoGuerilla]

No it doesn't. Institutional racism doesn't necessarily have to be something people are conscious of. I mean, it's fucking clear that racism exists here. Part of the reason black people are over-represented in the prisons are because of wildly unequal enforcement of drug laws. Statistics state that white and black people use drugs at the same rate, but there is way more enforcement aimed at the poorest neighborhoods, which very, very often turn out to be neighborhoods in which the majority of residents are black.

Be honest. Have you ever actually looked into issues of racism at all?


But you see a disproportionate amount of men in prisons are of the lower working class besides blacks where infact all races of such economic backgrounds suffer and are generally imprisoned.

If institutions are inherently racist that would mean that there is a conspiracy on the grounds that somebody made them as such.

[Which would mean there is some sort of vast coordinated effort to commit such a institutional conspiracy against specific people.]

Which group represents the conspirators if there are any?



I mean, it's fucking clear that racism exists here.


Yes all different kinds.




Statistics state that white and black people use drugs at the same rate, but there is way more enforcement aimed at the poorest neighborhoods, which very, very often turn out to be neighborhoods in which the majority of residents are black.

Be honest. Have you ever actually looked into issues of racism at all?


I've looked into it but I do not think it is as prevailing today as it was in the past persay.

I cannot account for these statistical averages you keep listing [ links would be helpful.] but there are many different groups within the United States as there are diverse ethnicities where being that there are many groups I don't think it necessarily is misinterpreted that some groups are represented in some areas of society more over than others.

Certainly whites are overly represented in white collar type crimes, wouldn't you say?




You might not be experiencing it individually


Why is that? You say there is white privilege yet as a poor low income [currently no income] white male I've yet to expirience any.

If it is merely reduced to specific individuals whom your probally speaking of is the whites that are wealthy and apart of the upper class regiment of society where it has nothing to do with 'race' specifically as it has everything to do with economical class and income.

And let's face it whites in general are not the only specific class anymore that represents the wealthy upper class strata of the United States as there are no shortage of other races that represent that portion of society also who have no problem in continuing the oppressive marginalization of the working class even amongst their own people for their own profit gains.


but statistically, white people are better off than black people. Even when they're poor, they're more likely to get more out of social services.

I'm not getting anything out of social services where infact my latest declaration of unemployment will undoubtedly be contested of which I'm going to be existentially screwed in the coming weeks.

As for statistics does it account for whites being larger in population density in the United States over blacks?

Does it account for the segment of the white population that is deemed low income working class in comparison?



I mean seriously, as much as I think class is the main issue, you just simply can't deny that being poor and black has a lot more potential to be a lot worse than being poor and white.


The fact that you make a distinguishment I find ironic considering I'm suffering currently no less or greater being a unemployed white male than a average black who is going through the same problems. Infact beyond the pigmentation of our racial make up in a social constructive manner I would say that myself unemployed versus a black who is also unemployed have more similarities in our problems as both of us being apart of the low working class that is deeply oppressed in this time of economical recession where our class is being sacrificed in the name of corporate interests. We have more in common where anything else is just a distraction.

[Edelweiss]

I think she made this speech because she is Hitler reincarnate.


People will learn it if it is useful to them, not because they want to serve the great fatherland and its füher. Racist fuckers need to die.

I really don't want to defend Merkel, but your Nazi comparisons are just ridiculous. It's ironic you complain about racism but at the same time playing with "Germans = Nazis" stereotypes. Quiet pathetic actually.

Merkel's statements are nothing but opportunism and a sad attempt to somehow gain control over the out of control debate on Muslim immigrants that we have here in Germany for months now.

BTW: Also immigrant interest groups are demanding German lessons for immigrants. Even the Turkish prime minister did recommend Turkish immigrants to learn German. And to be honest, I don't think it's a particular racist demand at all.

[ComradeMan]

I really don't want to defend Merkel, but your Nazi comparisons are just ridiculous. It's ironic you complain about racism but at the same time playing with "Germans = Nazis" stereotypes. Quiet pathetic actually.

Merkel's statements are nothing but opportunism and a sad attempt to somehow gain control over the out of control debate on Muslim immigrants that we have here in Germany for months now.

BTW: Also immigrant interest groups are demanding German lessons for immigrants. Even the Turkish prime minister did recommend Turkish immigrants to learn German. And to be honest, I don't think it's a particular racist demand at all.


Point 1- I agree. Stereotyping Germans with the whole Nazi thing is a form of bigotry.

Thank you- I also got that impression about what Merkel may have been up to.

[#FF0000]

If institutions are inherently racist that would mean that there is a conspiracy on the grounds that somebody made them as such.

No. There wouldn't.

[WendigoGuerilla]

No. There wouldn't.

If specific institutions are inherently racist that would mean somebody would of made them that way where somebody must be letting them in continuance in staying that way as well.

You did speak of specific institutions that are racist, did you not?

If what I say is incorrect, how do specific institutions in your mind become inherently racist overtime?

Somebody has to be the initial or current cause...............

[#FF0000]

I've looked into it but I do not think it is as prevailing today as it was in the past persay.

You can think that but you're wrong.


I cannot account for these statistical averages you keep listing [ links would be helpful.] but there are many different groups within the United States as there are diverse ethnicities where being that there are many groups I don't think it necessarily is misinterpreted that some groups are represented in some areas of society more over than others.


While there was a specific study I was looking for, I actually found a whole bunch that go along the same lines that are all appropriate here. Go hog wild. (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Blacks+disproportionately+imprisoned+for+drug+cr imes)


Certainly whites are overly represented in white collar type crimes, wouldn't you say?

But that's very different because more white people are in positions where they can commit a white collar crime.


Why is that? You say there is white privilege yet as a poor low income [currently no income] white male I've yet to expirience any.

How would you know based on your experience alone? White privilege doesn't mean all white people live like kings. I mean, goddamn, white people can suffer because of white privilege too, just like men can suffer because of patriarchy.


If it is merely reduced to specific individuals whom your probally speaking of is the whites that are wealthy and apart of the upper class regiment of society where it has nothing to do with 'race' specifically as it has everything to do with economical class and income.

But race does have something to do with it! In America, white people can be poor, but overall, black people are poorer and have less access to social services. Poor white people can live in neighborhoods with horrible schools, but statistically, schools in the inner-city are far worse. White people can have a hard time finding work, but a black person could hand in the exact same resume with the same qualifications and is 17% less likely to get accepted if they have a "black sounding" name (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3495/is_2_48/ai_97873146/).


And let's face it whites in general are not the only specific class anymore that represents the wealthy upper class strata of the United States as there are no shortage of other races that represent that portion of society also who have no problem in continuing the oppressive marginalization of the working class even amongst their own people for their own profit gains.



I'm not getting anything out of social services where infact my latest declaration of unemployment will undoubtedly be contested of which I'm going to be existentially screwed in the coming weeks.


What you experience isn't the end-all be-all of reality. I'm talking about looking at the aggregate of people's experiences in the U.S. I'm talking about looking at numbers and statistics and facts.


As for statistics does it account for whites being larger in population density in the United States over blacks?

Does it account for the segment of the white population that is deemed low income working class in comparison?

Looking for the study now, but I am pretty sure they did because not taking that into consideration is a hella dumb mistake to make.


The fact that you make a distinguishment I find ironic considering I'm suffering currently no less or greater being a unemployed white male than a average black who is going through the same problems. Infact beyond the pigmentation of our racial make up in a social constructive manner I would say that myself unemployed versus a black who is also unemployed have more similarities in our problems as both of us being apart of the low working class that is deeply oppressed in this time of economical recession where our class is being sacrificed in the name of corporate interests. We have more in common where anything else is just a distraction.

Yeah, I agree race is a social construct and all that, and that workers of all nations and all skin colors have the same class interests, but that doesn't change the fact that systematic racism and white privilege exist in the U.S. and are deeply embedded in American institutions. And no, it's not because of some conspiracy or because white people are evil. You don't need that for racism. All racism needs is for people to not look for it or notice it.

[#FF0000]

If specific institutions are inherently racist that would mean somebody would of made them that way where somebody must be letting them in continuance in staying that way as well.

You did speak of specific institutions that are racist, did you not?

If what I say is incorrect, how do specific institutions in your mind become inherently racist overtime?

Somebody has to be the initial or current cause...............


People can be racist and not realize it or deny it.

[Devrim]

I really don't want to defend Merkel, but your Nazi comparisons are just ridiculous.

Yes, to call Merkel a Nazi is absurd. We commented on this issue in our press recently.


Mesut Özil, Angela Merkel and Islamophobia in Europe (http://en.internationalism.org/node/4015)


Guus Hiddink wasn’t the only one who was a little upset after last week’s national team matches. Even though Germany won the match in Berlin, it provoked a xenophobic outburst in Angela Merkel. In this article, published by the ICC's section in Turkey, we look at the wave of Islamophobia sweeping across Europe.

Türkçe (http://tr.internationalism.org/ekaonline-2000s/ekaonline-2010/mesut-oezil-andrea-merkel-ve-avrupa-da-islamofobi)


Devrim

[Lumpen Bourgeois]

So where's my privilege because I surely wish I had some right about now.

I’m black. I can honestly say that I don’t feel disadvantaged relative to my white peers in applying for a job. I rarely get pulled over by the cops. No one has ever hung a noose from the tree in my yard. I feel that I live a privileged existence relative to many white people.

So can I conclude that America is now a color-blind society where racial prejudice based on skin color is a thing of the past and class is the only thing that matters? It would be nice, but I’m afraid I must strongly disagree with this sanguine conclusion.

Discrimination is hard to assess on an individual basis, but general trends can be a better indicator. Even though I’ve personally never felt discriminated against, I can’t extrapolate from my experience and claim that racial discrimination has been expunged from American society. In order to fully ascertain the salience of “race” and the existence of “white privilege”, one needs to look at other forms of evidence.

Audit studies are one of the many methods employed in the racial discrimination studies literature at least with regards to detecting economic discrimination. An audit study usually consists of two test groups of participants matched for a variety of criteria such as level of education, criminal record, height, gender, socioeconomic status, verbal ability, mannerisms, IQ etc. The only feature that the groups don’t share in common is race, i.e. one group is made up of, say, white males, the other black. Race is the only difference between these groups.
Once the researcher has made sure that the two groups are the same in every aspect excluding race and have subjected them to a rigorous training process where they are taught to behave uniformly, the groups are then sent out to apply for jobs in the same industry. If both groups tend to receive job offerings at similar rates, then we can probably conclude that race is of little or no importance in that particular job market.

However, this result is rarely the case with regards to many markets. The white group tends to do substantially better than the black group in acquiring job offerings. We can’t say that blacks weren’t offered jobs at a similar rate to whites because they’re of lower social class, possess lower IQ, or behaved uncouthly during the job interview. Remember that these potentially confounding factors have been controlled for. Race is the only characteristic of the groups that mattered.*


I am not aware of any race based privileges

Whites definitely have a significant edge over blacks in many job markets, as these audit studies(some of which are mentioned below) indicate, and though social class is an important contributing factor in the grand scheme of things, race is also very crucial here as well. If these studies don’t convince you that whites have at least some economic privileges over blacks, then you must have a very peculiar definition of privilege.


Here are some of the audit studies for anyone interested.

"Detecting Discrimination in Audit and Correspondence Studies" (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1689379)

"Racial Discrimination in Housing Markets During the 1980s: A review of the audit evidence" (http://jpe.sagepub.com/content/9/3/165.abstract)

"Race and Gender Discrimination in Bargaining for a New Car" (http://www.jstor.org/pss/2118176)

"Measuring Racial Discrimination with Fair Housing Audits: Caught in the Act" (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1816458)



*Audit studies can also be used to detect discrimination based on many other factors besides race. Gender, criminal record and even weight have also been shown to be very significant factors in the job process. For example, people without criminal records are several times more likely to receive a job offering relative to a group of otherwise equally qualified past offenders in many job markets.

[WendigoGuerilla]

Speaking of white privilege the company I worked for last before becoming unemployed was 75% black as it was publicized in it's monthly employee magazine.

What does this prove? That so called white privilege is not all that prevailing in the United States.

There are plenty of businesses where blacks can indeed be a majority of a work setting.

[#FF0000]

Speaking of white privilege the company I worked for last before becoming unemployed was 75% black as it was publicized in it's monthly employee magazine.

What does this prove? That so called white privilege is not all that prevailing in the United States.

There are plenty of businesses where blacks can indeed be a majority of a work setting.

So one company has a lot of black workers, thus white privilege doesn't exist? Despite every statistic that shows black people in America have a disadvantage in this society? Are you a troll?

[WendigoGuerilla]

So one company has a lot of black workers, thus white privilege doesn't exist? Despite every statistic that shows black people in America have a disadvantage in this society? Are you a troll?



Are you a troll?


No. Why would I be? Did I say somthing that you didn't like which made you allege that I am one?

I really don't like the Tomás de Torquemada attitude here in lines of questioning in that it's a bit uncomfortable.


So one company has a lot of black workers, thus white privilege doesn't exist?

I was trying to explain that this white privilege you speak of doesn't account for all of society or the market that ecompasses within it.


Despite every statistic that shows black people in America have a disadvantage in this society?

Blacks are 12% of the population in the United States compared to some other groups that outnumber them twice as much.

I think that needs to be addressed because what you see as a disadvantage merely might be a consequence of population density ratios.

I can think of many blacks in high professions and influential positions as well besides this constant disadvantage you speak of.

[They certainly are not rare as you are making them out to be.]

[Ele'ill]

Speaking of white privilege the company I worked for last before becoming unemployed was 75% black as it was publicized in it's monthly employee magazine.

What does this prove? That so called white privilege is not all that prevailing in the United States.

There are plenty of businesses where blacks can indeed be a majority of a work setting.

White privilege is sort of what makes your notion of 'hiring blacks' a big deal.

[WendigoGuerilla]

White privilege is sort of what makes your notion of 'hiring blacks' a big deal.

Exactly how did I make a big deal out of it?

I stated a simple fact about a prior company that I worked for used as a analogy for the current conversation. [Shakes head*]

[Decolonize The Left]

No. Why would I be? Did I say somthing that you didn't like which made you allege that I am one?

I asked you this same question earlier and explained why. Refer back to that if you're still confused.


I was trying to explain that this white privilege you speak of doesn't account for all of society or the market that ecompasses within it.

No one here has alleged that. If you want to make claims, please justify them.


Blacks are what 12% of the population in the United States compared to some other groups that outnumber them twice as much.

I think that needs to be addressed because what you see as a disadvantage merely might be a consequence of population density.

But it isn't. The stat I gave you before about prison populations indicates that it clearly has nothing to do with population numbers, but how those populations are viewed by others in relation to the law.


I can think of many blacks in high professions as well besides this constant disadvantage you speak of.

You find one example of a black person who claims that racism doesn't exist or isn't a disadvantage - just one.

- August

[Ele'ill]

Do you think that white privilege was destroyed by the civil rights movement (that was destroyed by white liberal cop-outs?)

[WendigoGuerilla]

In order to save myself any future grief I'm just going to sit this conversation out. It's clear that having any particular difference of opinion on this issue here is inviting alot of uneeded ridicule along with the possible word of banned here as I've peered at past examples in other threads by other people.

For now in a civil manner I will agree to disagree but in a manner that is not insulting to the rest of the people in this thread with some level of respect as I abstain any more voice on this issue.

[penguinfoot]

BTW: Also immigrant interest groups are demanding German lessons for immigrants. Even the Turkish prime minister did recommend Turkish immigrants to learn German. And to be honest, I don't think it's a particular racist demand at all.

It depends. Socialists should support the availability of language tuition for immigrants (in fact ESL tuition is one of the areas of spending within the education sector that has been most attacked by the British government since before the election) but we should do so not because we think that immigrants have some kind of obligation to embrace the language of the country in which they live, because that kind of argument would be pandering to the worst right-wing rhetoric about the need for "integration", which is ultimately a way of expressing a racist and derogatory viewpoint without being explicitly racist in the same way as the far-right. If there is any reason to support language tuition, it's because we think that people of all cultural backgrounds should have the chance to learn languages at no financial cost, be it in order to improve their prospects whilst living in a capitalist society that is not their home country, or just because people learning a foreign language is an inherently good thing.

Anyone who has spent a single day in the UK or Germany knows that there is continuous pressure on immigrants to "integrate" and that a lack of "integration" is a persistent claim on the part of the right, with the entire notion of integration being ultimately illusory because it refers to a way of life that is essentially constructed, in much the same way as all components of nationalist and chauvinist ideology, in that it is rarely truly representative of how the majority of people really live, even amongst those who were born in or who are citizens of the country in question.


There are plenty of businesses where blacks can indeed be a majority of a work setting

That was true in the 19th and 18th centuries as well, the businesses were called plantations.

[ComradeMan]

Brothers and sisters- comrades- see what they are doing? Race is now dividing us and we are ALL supposed to be on the same side!!!!!!!!

[Decolonize The Left]

Brothers and sisters- comrades- see what they are doing? Race is now dividing us and we are ALL supposed to be on the same side!!!!!!!!

Don't troll. This is an verbal warning. You are well aware that race is not dividing us here, but we are discussing how race is used to divide the working class via institutionalized racism and discrimination.

- August

[ComradeMan]

Don't troll. This is an verbal warning. You are well aware that race is not dividing us here, but we are discussing how race is used to divide the working class via institutionalized racism and discrimination.

- August

Sorry, but why is that trolling? Could you please explain? I was saying like "hey guys, look at this- this is what race issues do- they divide us and divide people?"- exactly like what is happening on this thread.

WTF

[#FF0000]

Sorry, but why is that trolling? Could you please explain? I was saying like "hey guys, look at this- this is what race issues do- they divide us and divide people?"- exactly like what is happening on this thread.

WTF

You said race, not race issues. Also saying "talking about race issues" is divisive is stupid. Talking about how racism affects people is divisive, somehow? I mean really.

If you have a problem then bring it up somewhere else. Not this thread.

[RGacky3]

You could say all discussions where people have different viewpoints divide us, if we discuss gun rights you could say gun rights divide us, which is pointless,

This is a discussion forum if everyone agreed on everything it would'nt be that fun.

[ComradeMan]

You said race, not race issues. Also saying "talking about race issues" is divisive is stupid. Talking about how racism affects people is divisive, somehow? I mean really.

If you have a problem then bring it up somewhere else. Not this thread.

You know what I meant and in the context of the thread too. Race issues cause divided when there should be none, as you, I believe, pointed out- race is a social construct so why are we all arguing about race?

On the same token I am accused of trolling when it's the drugs issue, about which I feel strongly and people feel free to flame and call people stupid, deride them and so forth... Whatever...

[#FF0000]

You know what I meant and in the context of the thread too. Race issues cause divided when there should be none, as you, I believe, pointed out- race is a social construct so why are we all arguing about race?

Because it being a social construct doesn't mean that it doesn't affect people's lives, you idiot. Race being a social construct didn't stop racism in America, did it? It didn't stop the Slave trade, segregation and the Jim Crow laws, it didn't stop redlining and people determining property value based on how many black people were in the neighborhood, did it?

You know what else is a social construct? Class.


On the same token I am accused of trolling when it's the drugs issue, about which I feel strongly and people feel free to flame and call people stupid, deride them and so forth... Whatever...

Most people were calling you stupid for ignoring people's points and being a patronizing asshole.

[ComradeMan]

Because it being a social construct doesn't mean that it doesn't affect people's lives, you idiot. Race being a social construct didn't stop racism in America, did it? It didn't stop the Slave trade, segregation and the Jim Crow laws, it didn't stop redlining and people determining property value based on how many black people were in the neighborhood, did it?

You know what else is a social construct? Class.

Most people were calling you stupid for ignoring people's points and being a patronizing asshole.

Why don't you stop applying one set of ideals to one argument and another set to the other? All I was saying is that this thread about mulitculturalism has seen people being misunderstood, Germans being insulted re Edelweiss' comments and an increasingly antagonistic tone in the whole thread. You accused me of preaching Islamophobia when I was actually defending the Muslim minority in Germany who Merkel was attacking and even our German comrades saw too and yet you didn't have the good grace to even concede on that?

For the rest, well, that's despite the fact that points have been accepted and listened to all over the place and concessions made and despite the fact that when my points are raised they are glossed over all the damn time.

It seems to me that it's a reasonable discussion when it suits one moment and then it's trolling in the next......:thumbup:

BTW When did I ever insult you? Despite the fact you don't even know what class definitions are and you are on a Revolutionary Left forum? But don't worry I am not going to fall into your clever trap either.

[#FF0000]

Why don't you stop applying one set of ideals to one argument and another set to the other?


BTW When did I ever insult you? Despite the fact you don't even know what class definitions are and you are on a Revolutionary Left forum? But don't worry I am not going to fall into your clever trap either.

What are you even talking about?

[ComradeMan]

Well going round calling people patronizing assholes would be trolling by anyone else's standards wouldn't it? That's just a start.

[Devrim]

Do you think that white privilege was destroyed by the civil rights movement (that was destroyed by white liberal cop-outs?)

The whole notion of 'white privilege' is a sociological theory, not a class based one.

Devrim

[#FF0000]

Well going round calling people patronizing assholes would be trolling by anyone else's standards wouldn't it? That's just a start.

Not if the person in question is being a patronizing asshole. And I mean, you have been. Doing that dumb eyeroll emote and saying "oh how revolutionary" because people have a different perspective than you on drugs.

You remind me a lot of the preacher guy from that movie Inherit the Wind which I saw last night.

[Fabrizio]

90% of the overt racism I've seen in London has been within non-white communities, against each other (Nigerians vs Somalians, Pakistanis vs Bengalis, Turks vs Pakistanis, etc.), or against whites. In most inner London schools and in many workplaces black and Asian supremacism reigns, and anyone white is seen as inherently inferior, regardless of how much they acknowledge their own inferiority. "White" itself is an insult in the every day vocabulary in London. If this kind of behaviour was practiced in any school or workplace the other way round, there would be a media and legal scandal.

As for "white privelige", well if you go to anyc ountry you will find they privelige their own people. But as I said before, in msot of those countries an immigrant doesn't get any housing, welfare or rights to free speech. In Britain you can get subsidized for life to preach "death to the west". Crazy no?

[RGacky3]

Overt racism is just people being kind of dicks, honestly it does'nt really bother me that much if some white dude that drives a truck hates black people, or if in non-white communities in London some of them hate white people or other non-whites, I don't care, it does'nt effect the big picture, its just poeple being dicks, if I have to deal with them personally its a different story, but then I just avoid them.

However INSTITUTIONAL racism is a whole different story, thats public policy, thats buisiness practice, thats not just some guy being a dick, its power structures, and guys in power affecting peoples lives, thats the real problem, and when it comes to institutional racism, at least in European countries and the US, its generally in favor of whites, and detrimental to non-whites.


As for "white privelige", well if you go to anyc ountry you will find they privelige their own people. But as I said before, in msot of those countries an immigrant doesn't get any housing, welfare or rights to free speech. In Britain you can get subsidized for life to preach "death to the west". Crazy no?

No, its not crazy, because you have freedom of speach and public services for everyone.

[#FF0000]

Rgacky got it completely right. People being bigots and using hurtful and demeaning language is one thing, but widespread systematic discrimination carried out by official institutions with supposedly legitimate authority is a completely different thing. One is damaging on an individual or a small scale, and in a lot of cases can be shrugged off. The latter is far, far, far more damaging and so common in western governments that it's practically endemic.

[Fabrizio]

So you'd be as indifferent to daily bigotry by whites against blacks then?

Also notice I referred to this behavioru happening within schools and workplaces. And it is often tolerated and encouraged by them, and by the media. Not to mention mosques which preach this kind of thing. If these aren't "institutions" what are?

[#FF0000]

So you'd be as indifferent to daily bigotry by whites against blacks then?

It depends. It really does. If it's some toothless mook on the corner shouting racial epithets, then why would I care? It's some toothless mook on the corner. If that toothless mook owns a corner store and refuses to serve black customers, that's another thing. If that mook runs for the school board or public office, that's another.


Also notice I referred to this behavioru happening within schools and workplaces. And it is often tolerated and encouraged by them, and by the media. Not to mention mosques which preach this kind of thing. If these aren't "institutions" what are?

Who is it encouraged by? And what makes you think that mosques encourage it as well? Do you think all mosques encourage bigotry?

[Fabrizio]

No, I don't. I didn't say "all mosques". Simply that many do.

Also I was clearly not talking about one toothless mook. I'm talking about what is commonly accepted.

In short: try telling some black or Muslim youth on the streets of London that he's oppressed by whites. They will laugh in your face.

[#FF0000]

No, I don't. I didn't say "all mosques". Simply that many do.

Also I was clearly not talking about one toothless mook. I'm talking about what is commonly accepted.

In short: try telling some black or Muslim youth on the streets of London that he's oppressed by whites. They will laugh in your face.

You're telling me that no black or muslim youth will say racism exists in England? Really? In England? The place where the EDL and BNP are set up? Huh.

And how do you know "Many mosques" encourage bigotry? What is that claim based on? And how is it encouraged in schools?

Are whites oppressed by blacks or muslims?

[Fabrizio]

I don't believe any one race is oppressed by any other. Oppression is a very specific thing IMO.

All I am saying is that I see more anti-white racism than racism against non-whites, also I see more racism against non-whites from other non-whites than from whites, and finally, the one kind of racism which is acceptable to the media, schools and councils, is anti-white racism.

Let me give you an example: I'm white, my mother is clearly Latin, and my family emigrated to London, as I've said many times. I have experienced more racism as a white than as an immigrant. And happilly my mother never experienced any racism in 20 years in Britain.:)

[#FF0000]

Do you think British Pakistanis face racism?

[#FF0000]

Also are any of your opinions based on empirical research or studies or strictly your own experience?

[Fabrizio]

ok I just saw your edit.

The BNP and EDL are so small and are considered a joke. Only the far-left wants to exaggerate them in order to grow out of the counter-protests. How many EDL are there, a thousand out of 60 million Brits? And the BNP, come on they are reviled by everyone, have no hope of electoral success. Plus every country has racist groups. Does this mean everyone else is autmatically "oppressed".

As for mosques preaching bigotry, ok, I'll look for examples if you want. From my experience, I know most Muslims I know, see non-Muslims as second in importance to Muslims. Now that's fine in a Muslim country, but to live in the west and still hold those attitudes is IMO indefensable.

So if you want to talk about the BNP and EDL (who are assholes I agree), try living in Saudi Arabia as a non-Muslim first.

[graffic]

I think i understand what Fabrizio is trying to communicate

He/She has problem with what is commonly known as "political correctness". Although political correctness is a good thing, its not revolutionary, or entirely important. For example, politicians can agree that discrimination is obviously wrong however this is not related to anything revolutionary since black/foreign/white people can become part of the bourgeois and anti-racism principles can be accepted by the bourgeois even if only on the surface.

I may be talking bollocks here but i also think the tendency to patronize rather than discuss issues of prejudice with the white working class since immigration really took off after world war two has alienated white working class voters and pushed them into the hands of fascists like BNP and EDL to an extent

[#FF0000]

The BNP and EDL are so small and are considered a joke. Only the far-left wants to exaggerate them in order to grow out of the counter-protests. How many EDL are there, a thousand out of 60 million Brits? And the BNP, come on they are reviled by everyone, have no hope of electoral success. Plus every country has racist groups. Does this mean everyone else is autmatically "oppressed".

The EDL and the BNP merely existing doesn't make every white person in England racist. Institutional racism and white privilege existing in England doesn't make everyone in England racist.

Are there any anti-white racist organizations that are comparable in size to the EDL or BNP? Is there a Sharia party gaining votes or something?


As for mosques preaching bigotry, ok, I'll look for examples if you want. From my experience, I know most Muslims I know, see non-Muslims as second in importance to Muslims. Now that's fine in a Muslim country, but to live in the west and still hold those attitudes is IMO indefensable.

Does every Muslim in England think this? How does this affect you or "white people" in general in England?


So if you want to talk about the BNP and EDL (who are assholes I agree), try living in Saudi Arabia as a non-Muslim first.

I think taking cues on religious freedom and plurality from Saudi Arabia is a bad idea. And who cares what Saudi Arabia does?

Also, how is "anti-white bigotry" encouraged in schools? What effect do you think anti-white racism in general has on white people? If it's a problem, what should white people do about this?

[#FF0000]

I may be talking bollocks here but i also think the tendency to patronize rather than discuss issues of prejudice with the white working class since immigration really took off after world war two has alienated white working class voters and pushed them into the hands of fascists like BNP and EDL to an extent

I think the language people use to talk about racism is sort of confusing and jargon-y. Same thing with sexism, actually. People hear things like "patriarchy" and "white privilege" and don't really understand that these things can negatively affect men and white people too.

[Fabrizio]

I think i understand what Fabrizio is trying to communicate

He/She has problem with what is commonly known as "political correctness". Although political correctness is a good thing, its not revolutionary, or entirely important. For example, politicians can agree that discrimination is obviously wrong however this is not related to anything revolutionary since black/foreign/white people can become part of the bourgeois and anti-racism principles can be accepted by the bourgeois even if only on the surface.

I may be talking bollocks here but i also think the tendency to patronize rather than discuss issues of prejudice with the white working class since immigration really took off after world war two has alienated white working class voters and pushed them into the hands of fascists like BNP and EDL to an extent

Well you talk about not being patronizing but come on dude, saying "I think I understand what Fabrizio is trying to communicate", is kind of...patronizing. I am sure you mean well, and I'm not bothered because I'm secure in my own position, but my advice would be when you are down on the picket lines, don't speak that way to teh proles! :p As I say please don't take this the wrong way, you seem like an ok guy and all...

So as I was saying, I'm not a helpless inarticulate "white working class" person. I also am quite tired after work so don't have time to write a 10,000 word essay referencing the entire works of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky and Luxembourg. But still, I am speaking plain English, I wouldn't think the things I am saying exactly require a translator.

In short: the views I'm expressing are what the average mainstream middle class, relatively educated person will express, never mind the working class.

So if people find my moderate views shocking, they had better be in for a real shock if they ever try working day-to-day in a blue collar environment: you'll ehar things 100 times less PC than what I am saying, on a daily basis.

[#FF0000]

You're making some pretty big assumptions about the people on this site, there.

EDIT: I mean, shit, I work minimum wage jobs. Manual labor and retail. I don't hear many bigoted or racist remarks.

[Fabrizio]

So most of your co-workers wouldn't be restricted on RevLeft? ;)

I'm not saying everyone out there is a raving racist but come on, not many people live up to the Politically Correct benchmark do they?...

[Dr Mindbender]

So most of your co-workers wouldn't be restricted on RevLeft? ;)

I'm not saying everyone out there is a raving racist but come on, not many people live up to the Politically Correct benchmark do they?...

the term political correctness gets thrown around an awful lot these days and frankly its very unhelpful. Its very definition has allowed to become forged by the Murdochian media and the gutter press to preserve the neo-liberal hegemony. It has become a pejoritive bogeyman and card of the right wing to essentially blank out any move to say that argumentum ad populum ideas held by society at large about race and immigration are wrong and must be challenged.

Oh, and obvious troll is obvious. You only hear fascists and reactionary pundits referring to the 'far left' in a second person perspective as if it is some sort of villainous entity.

[#FF0000]

So most of your co-workers wouldn't be restricted on RevLeft? ;)

No, most would, since most of them aren't communists.


I'm not saying everyone out there is a raving racist but come on, not many people live up to the Politically Correct benchmark do they?...

Not always but racist jokes and comments weren't all that common off or on the job.

Except for this one guy who was a vile bigot in denial and who insisted his racist jokes were okay because everyone's a little bit racist. Everyone hated him.

[Fabrizio]

With all respect dude, I really think you're missing my point. I kept syaing, most British are not racist, we as immigrants never experienced any racism and the only racism I ever experienced was for being white

So probably, we agree. :)

[#FF0000]

With all respect dude, I really think you're missing my point. I kept syaing, most British are not racist, we as immigrants never experienced any racism and the only racism I ever experienced was for being white

So probably, we agree. :)

Eh, I have a feeling we don't. I don't think most British people are racist and I have serious doubts that people calling white people names is the biggest problem England has with racism.

[synthesis]

The whole notion of 'white privilege' is a sociological theory, not a class based one.

Devrim

So are you saying it's wrong, or just not relevant to working class struggles? Or both? Or neither?

[lines]

The notion of white privilege is antagonistic to the struggle of the working class because it creates racial hostilities and the working class has to be united under class identity in order to be succesful. The notion of white privilege alienates the white working class from their own class struggle and causes them too identify with their capitalist opressors due to being alienated from the working class of other races due to feeling blame placed on them by non-white workers.

This results in the white working class sabotaging their own class interests and the result of this is the working classes become immobilized and can't achieve anything because you need the white workers to be on the same team as the non-white workers.

The notion of white privilege is bourgeoisie propaganda designed to divide and weaken the working class

[#FF0000]

The notion of white privilege is antagonistic to the struggle of the working class because it creates racial hostilities and the working class has to be united under class identity in order to be succesful. The notion of white privilege alienates the white working class from their own class struggle and causes them too identify with their capitalist opressors due to being alienated from the working class of other races due to feeling blame placed on them by non-white workers.

Wait, so pointing out racial inequality is a bad thing? Should people in the civil rights movement in America have not tried to get rid of segregation and Jim Crow laws, on the risk of alienating white workers?

Also, people who say White Privilege exists in society aren't saying the white people in general are to blame. That's like saying Feminists hate men because they oppose patriarchy. Racism's a systematic and institutional thing.

And the notion of white privilege isn't antagonistic with class struggle at all. The very notion of "white" and "black" races are result of the emergence of capitalism and industrialism. Telling poor whites that their skin is more important than their class and giving them a little bit extra is a good way to divide the working class, don't you think?


This results in the white working class sabotaging their own class interests and the result of this is the working classes become immobilized and can't achieve anything because you need the white workers to be on the same team as the non-white workers.

The notion of white privilege is bourgeoisie propaganda designed to divide and weaken the working class

You know, you're so close to being on the right track that it's kind of weird. White privilege exists to alienate white workers, yes. It exists to divide and weaken the working class, yeah. But the people who say that white people have an intrinsic advantage in modern American society aren't the ones trying to divide the working class.

I think this video might help you out here.

J3Xe1kX7Wsc

[Amphictyonis]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/east-bay-madness-t143720/index.html

[Devrim]

So are you saying it's wrong, or just not relevant to working class struggles? Or both? Or neither?

I am saying that not only is it an absurd idea, which doesn't help in people in understand the world in any way but also that it is completely irrelevant to the topic here, which is primarily connected to Islamophobia in Germany, which is mostly directed at Turks, who are white.

Devrim

[#FF0000]

I am saying that not only is it an absurd idea

Why is it an absurd idea?

[synthesis]

I am saying that not only is it an absurd idea, which doesn't help in people in understand the world in any way but also that it is completely irrelevant to the topic here, which is primarily connected to Islamophobia in Germany, which is mostly directed at Turks, who are white.

Devrim

First, is "absurd" different from "wrong"? Is the idea of white privilege wrong?

Second, to state the obvious, "white," as a term, only has as much meaning as people impart to it. Whatever the composition of "Turkish genetics," if the German majority does not consider Turks to be white, then in Germany they are effectively not white. Would you disagree?

[RGacky3]

So you'd be as indifferent to daily bigotry by whites against blacks then?

Also notice I referred to this behavioru happening within schools and workplaces. And it is often tolerated and encouraged by them, and by the media. Not to mention mosques which preach this kind of thing. If these aren't "institutions" what are?


If whites were living in a situation where they suffer from institutional racism then sure, that would be a problem.

But I don't see that happenening, I've never seen that happen, the worst is a white kid being bullied somewhat, which I'm against, but that is NOTHING compared to actual insituttional racism.

Mosques are preaching this type of thing? What Mosques? Say what you want about Islam, out of the 3 judeo-christian religions, Islam has the best history on race.


The notion of white privilege is antagonistic to the struggle of the working class because it creates racial hostilities and the working class has to be united under class identity in order to be succesful. The notion of white privilege alienates the white working class from their own class struggle and causes them too identify with their capitalist opressors due to being alienated from the working class of other races due to feeling blame placed on them by non-white workers.


Its not a notion, its a fact, proven by statistics, you can say rain is antagonistic to your hair, but thats not gonna change anything, its there, so bring an umbrella.

But your right it IS antagonistic, and the ruling class DOES use racial issues like this to brake up the working class, but just pretending it does'nt exist because you don't want it to is not gonna make it go away.

[Devrim]

Its not a notion, its a fact, proven by statistics, you can say rain is antagonistic to your hair, but thats not gonna change anything, its there, so bring an umbrella.

I'd like to see some statistics that say white workers are 'privileged'.

Devrim

[synthesis]

I'd like to see some statistics that say white workers are 'privileged'.

Devrim

Obviously the character of it varies from place to place. Even if Turkish immigrants to Germany don't suffer from, say, police discrimination and whatever the equivalent of "redlining" is, they will still tend to face barriers of language and culture, for example.

I don't think any Marxist would claim that German workers have "white privilege" over bourgeois Turks, but rather over Turkish immigrant workers.

[Devrim]

Obviously the character of it varies from place to place. Even if Turkish immigrants to Germany don't suffer from, say, police discrimination and whatever the equivalent of "redlining" is, they will still tend to face barriers of language and culture, for example.

I don't think any Marxist would claim that German workers have "white privilege" over bourgeois Turks, but rather over Turkish immigrant workers.

As I have already pointed out Turks are actually white, so the term seems even more absurd in this context.

What you seem to be suggesting though is that we divide the working class into various sectors who are more or less 'privileged'. Should we define second generation Turks in Germany as 'privileged' over the people who have actually immigrated there? After all they certainly don't 'face barriers of language'. Where do we stop?

The problem is that the entire idea of 'White privilege' is a sociological analysis, and not a class one, and like other sociological ideas such as the 'theory of Labour aristocracy', effectively plays a role, however small, in dividing the working class.

Devrim

[synthesis]

As I have already pointed out Turks are actually white, so the term seems even more absurd in this context.

The idea of race itself is absurd. You can't expect people to derive entirely rational conclusions from entirely irrational preconceptions. The concept of "white privilege" is just one attempt to make sense out of a nonsensical paradigm.

Furthermore, I don't think it's necessarily true that "white privilege" divides the working class. It doesn't seem like you're acknowledging that the working class is already divided by race. When white workers can digest concepts such as "white privilege," it helps to mend those divisions.

Obviously, again, the concept does not apply everywhere, and it is not necessarily quantifiable. But simply recognizing that it exists, and where it does exist, can help to reassemble a fractured proletariat.

[Oswy]

Umm, just saying. They are living in Germany. It would only make sense for them to learn to speak the language so you know, they can communicate with other Germans.

This tends to happen anyway, a fact that is ignored by reactionaries. First generation immigrants may struggle to command the language of their new country, especially if they are older (it's just harder to learn languages when you're older, our evolutionary disposition is to learn languages in early childhood). Second generation immigrants almost always speak the language fluently, and usually with the local accent too. Of course racism and resistance to immigrants creates all kinds of physical and mental barriers and hate speeches which blame the immigrants themlseves count heavily among them.

[Devrim]

Furthermore, I don't think it's necessarily true that "white privilege" divides the working class. It doesn't seem like you're acknowledging that the working class is already divided by race. When white workers can digest concepts such as "white privilege," it helps to mend those divisions.

The working class is not in any way divided by race. There is not a black, Asian or white working class, but one working class, which is defined not by its colour, but by its relationship to the means of production.

Racism is used to cause division within the working class, and not only does it discriminate against workers from ethnic minorities, but it directly attacks the living standards of workers from the ethnic majority in that creating a low wage labour pool decreases the wages of all workers. This is not what I would define in any way as privilege.

Of course workers need to understand that racism is against their class interests. 'Digesting' concepts such as 'white privilege', however, does not in any way assist in mending these divisions, and in my opinion, in its own way helps to reinforce them, however tiny its effect may be when compared to the major problem of racism.

Devrim

[Devrim]

This tends to happen anyway, a fact that is ignored by reactionaries. First generation immigrants may struggle to command the language of their new country, especially if they are older (it's just harder to learn languages when you're older, our evolutionary disposition is to learn languages in early childhood). Second generation immigrants almost always speak the language fluently, and usually with the local accent too.

Last summer there was a Turkish who had emigrated to London about twenty five years ago, and her daughter staying in our house. At one point the little girl said "Please try and speak in English. I can't understand anything anyone is talking about in Turkish".

Interestingly enough, the woman's mother emigrated to Istanbul from the East and the family are Kurdish. The Grandmother doesn't speak much Turkish, and the woman from London only has a few words of Kurdish.

Of all the members of our organisation in Germany that I have met with Turkish backgrounds, none of their kids can get far beyond 'please', 'thank you' 'How are you?', and 'fine thanks' in Turkish. Of course, all are fluent German speakers.

Devrim

[ComradeMan]

The working class is not in any way divided by race. There is not a black, Asian or white working class, but one working class, which is defined not by its colour, but by its relationship to the means of production.

Racism is used to cause division within the working class, and not only does it discriminate against workers from ethnic minorities, but it directly attacks the living standards of workers from the ethnic majority in that creating a low wage labour pool decreases the wages of all workers. This is not what I would define in any way as privilege.

Of course workers need to understand that racism is against their class interests. 'Digesting' concepts such as 'white privilege', however, does not in any way assist in mending these divisions, and in my opinion, in its own way helps to reinforce them, however tiny its effect may be when compared to the major problem of racism.

Devrim


This is what I was trying to say. The whole notion of race is a crafty tool that keeps people divided and it causes resentment and bad feeling at individual level. If a poor white worker is struggling with his family and keeps hearing about white privilege he's going to think, quite understandably, that this is bullshit- based on his own experience. On the other hand when black people or whoever else are perhaps a discriminated minority and they hear all the usual clichés about tolerant societies and multiculturalism and so on and so forth they are also going to feel resentments. HEY PRESTO! The "job" is done and divisions are created. Divide et imperat- divide and rule. Following on from the article in the Morning Star I think what has happened is that the official "left" has failed in many respects at uniting the proletariat and has in a sense contributed to the dividing of groups of people. When people feel resentment and start saying "nobody cares about us"- they retreat into more isolated and antagonistic groups and tend to shift towards more xenophobic and nationalistic positions- HEY PRESTO! The "job" is done...

That's what I was trying to say.

[Oswy]

Last summer there was a Turkish who had emigrated to London about twenty five years ago, and her daughter staying in our house. At one point the little girl said "Please try and speak in English. I can't understand anything anyone is talking about in Turkish".

Interestingly enough, the woman's mother emigrated to Istanbul from the East and the family are Kurdish. The Grandmother doesn't speak much Turkish, and the woman from London only has a few words of Kurdish.

Of all the members of our organisation in Germany that I have met with Turkish backgrounds, none of their kids can get far beyond 'please', 'thank you' 'How are you?', and 'fine thanks' in Turkish. Of course, all are fluent German speakers.

Devrim

That reminds me of when I went into my local chinese takeaway a couple of years back (chinese takeaways are a pervasive part of UK culture, not sure if you have that where you are). I've always enjoyed watching the person taking my order writing it down in chinese lettering and so couldn't help smiling when the 'chinese' teenage girl serving me wrote down my order in english for the cook. I had never seen that before and thought that maybe there is now a whole generation of young people in the UK with chinese heritage who can't now write chinese, and maybe can't speak it either. I appreciate why some might lament the loss of these cultural skills but it's just a fact of life I guess.

I always think it is a real shame that esperanto wasn't pushed for compulsory childhood teaching in EU schools way back in the 1960s when it was being mooted; how much more could the common injustices we face be expressed by the same language and how much more could common endeavour have been organised to challenged them through it - maybe that's exactly why it wasn't pushed for. In the meantime english tends to be the closest approximation of a universal language, which is lucky for those of us who are english of course, though it probably also makes us among the laziest language learners in the world :blushing:

[RGacky3]

I'd like to see some statistics that say white workers are 'privileged'.

Devrim


I did'nt say white workers a priviledged, I said white people are privileged, overall, and earlier on in this thread there was statistics, this is'nt a class issue, obviously white poor people are just as oppressed as others, however, all things being equal, the white guy will get the benefit of the doubt overall.

[timbaly]

I'd like to see some statistics that say white workers are 'privileged'.

Devrim

Statistics show that whites in the USA, Canada and Western Europe are more likely to be promoted than non-whites. They're more likely to be hired for jobs even when their qualifications are equal.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-100109094.html


On average, a White man with a college diploma earned about $65,000 in 2001 while Black and Hispanic men with college degrees earned 30 percent less. White women who are college graduates made about 40 percent less than White men, according to the Census Bureau. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-18434547.html


The number of Black Americans with high school diplomas and bachelor's degrees in 1995 increased from 1990, but Blacks' income decreased, the Census Bureau recently reported.
Among Blacks 25 and over, 73.8 percent had completed high school, up from 10.7 percent in 1990. In 1995, 13 percent of Blacks had a college degree, up from 11.3 in 1990.
However, the median income for Black men working full time was $25,350 in 1994, which was down $10 from the median income in 1990.http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=yitBhzsd9OIC&oi=fnd&pg=PA202&dq=race+and+employment&ots=3DfmoE2Nh2&sig=PMvuTBsMHCu7bKceKsVmuS4nbUA#v=onepage&q=race%20and%20employment&f=false

-Racial discrimination in employment in Canada.

[Havet]

The worst kind of immigrants:

xaFZrxlPwWs


There's a specific group of 4 million people who come to this country every year and don't contribute a thing. Everyone knows who i'm talking about, but no one wants to say it because its politically incorrect.

BABIES! That's who i'm talking about!

they come into this country, they don't speak the language, they don't wanna work, they just take and they take, and they waste all of our natural resources

[¿Que?]

The worst kind of immigrants:

Reposting, because it deserves to be.

[synthesis]

The working class is not in any way divided by race. There is not a black, Asian or white working class, but one working class, which is defined not by its colour, but by its relationship to the means of production.

I suppose we have different ideas of what it means for the working class to be divided by race. I don't believe that there is a "black working class" or a "white working class." There are working class people who are black and working class people who are white and they are divided along racial lines. You're right about the usage of racism to lower wages and the strength of the working class, of course.

On an unrelated note, I've heard Doug Stanhope's live show is one of the best evar.

[ComradeMan]

I suppose we have different ideas of what it means for the working class to be divided by race. I don't believe that there is a "black working class" or a "white working class." There are working class people who are black and working class people who are white and they are divided along racial lines. You're right about the usage of racism to lower wages and the strength of the working class, of course.

On an unrelated note, I've heard Doug Stanhope's live show is one of the best evar.


Why or how are they divided along racial lines? This is an outsider's point of view and I may be wrong- but here goes. When it comes to America, if I close my eyes I can't tell much of a difference between your average white American and black American- they seem to talk the same way, they seem to have a lot of the same attitudes. If I open my eyes again I see that first and foremost they are Americans and the skin colour is incidental- same language, same sports, same culture, same kinds of religion and so on. I could understand more if we were talking about groups of people who came from a different language, religion, culture etc- NOT SAYING THAT'S RIGHT EITHER- but in context I think you know what I mean. I understand there were many wrongs in the past but this is 2010, I don't see where all the hostility comes from to be honest.

[synthesis]

I could understand more if we were talking about groups of people who came from a different language, religion, culture etc- NOT SAYING THAT'S RIGHT EITHER- but in context I think you know what I mean.

Actually, I have no idea.

[#FF0000]

Why or how are they divided along racial lines? This is an outsider's point of view and I may be wrong- but here goes. When it comes to America, if I close my eyes I can't tell much of a difference between your average white American and black American- they seem to talk the same way, they seem to have a lot of the same attitudes. If I open my eyes again I see that first and foremost they are Americans and the skin colour is incidental- same language, same sports, same culture, same kinds of religion and so on. I could understand more if we were talking about groups of people who came from a different language, religion, culture etc- NOT SAYING THAT'S RIGHT EITHER- but in context I think you know what I mean. I understand there were many wrongs in the past but this is 2010, I don't see where all the hostility comes from to be honest.

It's just some dumb thing. Racism's just endemic to institutions in capitalism, I think. Maybe.

[timbaly]

Why or how are they divided along racial lines? This is an outsider's point of view and I may be wrong- but here goes. When it comes to America, if I close my eyes I can't tell much of a difference between your average white American and black American- they seem to talk the same way, they seem to have a lot of the same attitudes. If I open my eyes again I see that first and foremost they are Americans and the skin colour is incidental- same language, same sports, same culture, same kinds of religion and so on. I could understand more if we were talking about groups of people who came from a different language, religion, culture etc- NOT SAYING THAT'S RIGHT EITHER- but in context I think you know what I mean. I understand there were many wrongs in the past but this is 2010, I don't see where all the hostility comes from to be honest.

I think a lot of the hostility comes from the idea that minorities (especially blacks) are not hard working and rely on government handouts like food stamps and welfare. Many white working class people resent that a portion of their taxes goes to social programs that they believe largely benefit minorities (though in reality most Americans in poverty are white). The black community has a much higher rate of single parent households and children being born out of wedlock, many whites see this as a problem of the black community. Most black children are currently being raised in a single parent household (usually the mother) and that creates somewhat of a cultural divide between blacks and whites (though more whites than ever are growing up in a single parent household). Many blacks believes whites have benefited from institutionalized racism and sometimes are mistrustful of whites because of this. Whites tend to have more wealth and the difference is often in unearned income - like owning property or stocks. Whites have accumulated more wealth by being able to open their own businesses and buy properties during time periods in which blacks were unable to do so. They have since passed down these things and managed to accumulate more wealth than many blacks. Whites are also more likely to get loans from banks to purchase properties and start businesses. Blacks faced redlining a process by which banks refused to give out loans for refurbishing and other maintenance projects to homeowners living in majority minority areas. The homes decayed over time because residents couldn't afford to refurbish so many abandoned homes. The widespread abandoning caused property values to fall and many people winded up paying mortgages that were worth more than the value of their homes. This has helped to keep minorities in isolated pockets of poverty through the country. While whites were able to buy homes in the suburbs during the post WWII years and subsequent years of de-industrialization many blacks were left behind in the redlined districts. This means that the white and black working class remain relatively isolated from each other in terms of geography. They are not often neighbors or friends. Though they might be primarily christian they usually practice in churchs with their own race. Sports teams are also often segregated because they are often organized by geography and school districts and they tend to be segregated by race. Also basketball is typically far more popular amongst blacks than whites and hockey far more popular amongst whites than blacks. Popularity of baseball depends on region but tends to have a larger white fan base.

[ComradeMan]

I think a lot of the hostility comes from the idea that minorities (especially blacks) are not hard working and rely on government handouts like food stamps and welfare. Many white working class people resent that a portion of their taxes goes to social programs that they believe largely benefit minorities (though in reality most Americans in poverty are white). The black community has a much higher rate of single parent households and children being born out of wedlock, many whites see this as a problem of the black community. Most black children are currently being raised in a single parent household (usually the mother) and that creates somewhat of a cultural divide between blacks and whites (though more whites than ever are growing up in a single parent household). Many blacks believes whites have benefited from institutionalized racism and sometimes are mistrustful of whites because of this. Whites tend to have more wealth and the difference is often in unearned income - like owning property or stocks. Whites have accumulated more wealth by being able to open their own businesses and buy properties during time periods in which blacks were unable to do so. They have since passed down these things and managed to accumulate more wealth than many blacks. Whites are also more likely to get loans from banks to purchase properties and start businesses. Blacks faced redlining a process by which banks refused to give out loans for refurbishing and other maintenance projects to homeowners living in majority minority areas. The homes decayed over time because residents couldn't afford to refurbish so many abandoned homes. The widespread abandoning caused property values to fall and many people winded up paying mortgages that were worth more than the value of their homes. This has helped to keep minorities in isolated pockets of poverty through the country. While whites were able to buy homes in the suburbs during the post WWII years and subsequent years of de-industrialization many blacks were left behind in the redlined districts. This means that the white and black working class remain relatively isolated from each other in terms of geography. They are not often neighbors or friends. Though they might be primarily christian they usually practice in churchs with their own race. Sports teams are also often segregated because they are often organized by geography and school districts and they tend to be segregated by race. Also basketball is typically far more popular amongst blacks than whites and hockey far more popular amongst whites than blacks. Popularity of baseball depends on region but tends to have a larger white fan base.


Well this is not the America of the Cosby Show and all the other stuff that is pumped out to the rest of the world. What you are saying is like unofficial apartheid!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[timbaly]

Well this is not the America of the Cosby Show and all the other stuff that is pumped out to the rest of the world. What you are saying is like unofficial apartheid!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'll show you some geographic discrimination in the city of the Cosby Show. It shows the segregation within the City of New York. As you can see blacks are the most segregated and are the most likely of the groups to live in areas where at least 75% of the residents are black.

http://www.lehman.cuny.edu/deannss/bronxdatactr/discover/trypng3.png

[ComradeMan]

I'll show you some geographic discrimination in the city of the Cosby Show. It shows the segregation within the City of New York. As you can see blacks are the most segregated and are the most likely of the groups to live in areas where at least 75% of the residents are black.


Thanks for that. Try to understand that for many people outside the USA it's hard to equate this with a nation that has Obama as president!!!!!!

Well, I'm glad to say I've learned some interesting stuff thanks to your posts.
:)

[#FF0000]

Thanks for that. Try to understand that for many people outside the USA it's hard to equate this with a nation that has Obama as president!!!!!!

Well, I'm glad to say I've learned some interesting stuff thanks to your posts.
:)

Oh lordy it gets worse. In many places, schools are more segregated than they were in the 1950's. I know of schools in detroit where they actually offer classes in working at Wal*Mart to high school students.

[Bud Struggle]

I'll show you some geographic discrimination in the city of the Cosby Show. It shows the segregation within the City of New York. As you can see blacks are the most segregated and are the most likely of the groups to live in areas where at least 75% of the residents are black.

http://www.lehman.cuny.edu/deannss/bronxdatactr/discover/trypng3.png

It's pretty funny--on the ground driving through NYC it does seem diverse--but that map really showes--it's the NEIGHBORHOODS it's not the people.

It seems so different.

Good post.

[Bud Struggle]

(Sorry a bit fascinated here) but let's say you took Queens Blvd from LI to NYC, you'd go through white Asian and Spanish, a mix, Spainish, white then the Midtown Tunnel. The BQE is the same as Queens Blvd.

And Bedford Sty--is just like you'd imagine it. Riding through they all SEEM mixed--but it's not the case at all!

[Robert]

The BQE is the same as Queens

If you want good barbecued endive, you have to go to St. Louis.

Anybody notice a commonality to all these "most segregated cities" (NYC, Detroit, Newark, Chicago)?

[timbaly]

(Sorry a bit fascinated here) but let's say you took Queens Blvd from LI to NYC, you'd go through white Asian and Spanish, a mix, Spainish, white then the Midtown Tunnel. The BQE is the same as Queens Blvd.

And Bedford Sty--is just like you'd imagine it. Riding through they all SEEM mixed--but it's not the case at all!

It's not only mixed racially it's very mixed ethnically. The mix from Brooklyn to Queens on the BQE is a little different from the the mix along Queens Blvd.


If you want good barbecued endive, you have to go to St. Louis.

Anybody notice a commonality to all these "most segregated cities" (NYC, Detroit, Newark, Chicago)?


I always think of Pork when I think of St. Louis BBQ. I actually visited there for the first time this year. I went to Imos for the St. Louis-style pizza and Ted Drewes for the custard. I didn't get a chance to try the BBQ. Anyway, what do these places have in common? The latter three are majority black, and have continually lost population since the early 1950s. All four are in the North and are former major industrial centers.

[Robert]

I always think of Pork when I think of St. Louis BBQ.

I was kidding about barbecued endive (see Bud's post about "BQE").

[timbaly]

I was kidding about barbecued endive (see Bud's post about "BQE").


What's the commonality between NY, Chicago, Newark, and Detroit you're referring to?

[Fabrizio]

Eh, I have a feeling we don't. I don't think most British people are racist and I have serious doubts that people calling white people names is the biggest problem England has with racism.

I don't think most British people are racist either, I said that, so I don't see your point. I said that we never experienced any racism here, touch wood, the only I ever experienced was for being right.

I'm not going to tell you what the biggest problem with racism is, but in each country you expect to go there and show respect, is all I am saying. British peple are not generally racist, but understandably they won't stand for minority communities trying to exude an air of superiority over them (which most don't do but sadly there is a minority, which the politically correct institutions do not deal with).

[ComradeMan]

I don't think most British people are racist either, I said that, so I don't see your point. I said that we never experienced any racism here, touch wood, the only I ever experienced was for being right.

I'm not going to tell you what the biggest problem with racism is, but in each country you expect to go there and show respect, is all I am saying. British peple are not generally racist, but understandably they won't stand for minority communities trying to exude an air of superiority over them (which most don't do but sadly there is a minority, which the politically correct institutions do not deal with).

Nobody said people had to be a majority to hold reactionary ideas.

[Devrim]

Statistics show that whites in the USA, Canada and Western Europe are more likely to be promoted than non-whites. They're more likely to be hired for jobs even when their qualifications are equal.


What sort of jobs are you talking about? When you talk about 'promotions' I presume you are talking about management positions. The sort of people I know don't get promoted.

Devrim