a question regarding capital punishment

[BuddhaInBabylon]

i tried using the search feature to seek this out, but it yielded little results so i thought i would just ask...
What do you think the general feeling is among leftists regarding the death penalty? I know that there is a point of view that the majority of crimes commited in society are a result of the poor conditions that the capitalist system forces onto the populous, and thus with the introduction of an anarchist form of society, the need for police, prisons, judges, jails and the like, would be nil....And in the specific case of an Anarchist condition, the death "penalty" would be something sort of like an eye for eye i imagine, in the case of some kind of extreme anti-social behavior like murder....i really have no clue as to how a socialist society would confront the issue either.
There is a story in Japanese news running right now about a case of a man who murdered a young woman and her elderly mother in a pretty heinous sort of fashion...and in an apparently rare move, the jury has requested he receive the death penalty. I'm really unaware of the particulars, other than to say that his crime was pretty terrible, if indeed he did it. Something to the effect of multiple stab wounds to the face and body of the elderly woman....i don't know of the younger woman...
But it made me start to think...I can't say i'm a "supporter" of the death penalty,...but if someone did this kind of thing to my family members, i would have a hard time not feeling like they too should die. That's just how humans are i think....
What do you all know? any opinions?

[Quail]

I don't think the death penalty should ever be applied. I think the vast majority of criminals can be reformed in a psychiatric-type unit. Most people who commit awful crimes either have a personality disorder or are suffering due to traume from the past.

[Reznov]

Can you please elaborate on the psychiatric-care unit?

What if a man rapes a child and then gets put into one of these units, and then rapes another child.

What do you believe the punishment should be then? Just keep trying to help them because they can't help it?

[BuddhaInBabylon]

that may be the case, and to a certain extent, i agree with you. But what of the families of the victims? How can they possibly be reconciled?
Not that i think an additional death is somehow helpful to the immense suffering already being experienced throughout the world....
i realize this is a very sticky topic of conversation...

[Quail]

Somebody shouldn't be realeased into society unless it's pretty much a sure thing they can deal with their urges. I think that the right treatment could cure pretty much any criminal. If it doesn't work, try a different approach. But bear in mind, a lot of people who commit antisocial crimes have issues of their own which need addressing. Vengeance gets us nowhere.

[Sosa]

I don't believe in it. I don't believe in a state that has the power to that.

[Aloysius]

I think capital punishment is only necessary in extreme circumstances, like high (very, very high) treason or crimes against humanity (like genocide.)
Otherwise, "reeducation".

[Victus Mortuum]

I would advocate for generally rehabilitative mechanisms to deal with most criminals, and life-long separation from society for those who are deemed impossible to rehabilitate (by either exile, life long imprisonment, or execution), the specifics of which would be determined by juries and other radical-democratic organizations.

Socialism as an ideology takes no particular stance on this though.

[WeAreReborn]

I don't think the death penalty should ever be applied. I think the vast majority of criminals can be reformed in a psychiatric-type unit. Most people who commit awful crimes either have a personality disorder or are suffering due to traume from the past.
I agree and people also have to take into account is that the death penalty gives the state the control over life and death and thinking about that is absolutely horrifying.

I think capital punishment is only necessary in extreme circumstances, like high (very, very high) treason or crimes against humanity (like genocide.)
Otherwise, "reeducation". Treason? Treason is going against the government and as this site is REVOLUTIONARY left I assume you want to partake in a revolution, at least one that follows your specific beliefs, and that is considered treason. So treason is an absolutely bullshit "crime". Anyways, I believe in a crime rehabilitation center for murderers and rapists alike. The majority of every rape case is not because of sexual desire, it is because of control so if you make a society in which the community is healthier, it will decrease it but for those who still partake in it, you will send them to a rehabilitation center. In the society that I picture, prisons must be abolished as they only create more crime, but in terms of death penalty, no one should have that power.

[PoliticalNightmare]

Somebody shouldn't be realeased into society unless it's pretty much a sure thing they can deal with their urges. I think that the right treatment could cure pretty much any criminal. If it doesn't work, try a different approach. But bear in mind, a lot of people who commit antisocial crimes have issues of their own which need addressing. Vengeance gets us nowhere.

True but I don't think that it is then worth risking releasing a dangerous person back into society. The three main alternatives to prison (for extremely high risk offenders) seem to be

(a) exile
(b) capital punishment
(c) "let society deal with them" (whatever the hell that means)

Some people are just beyond rehabilitation.

[PoliticalNightmare]

I agree and people also have to take into account is that the death penalty gives the state the control over life and death and thinking about that is absolutely horrifying.
Treason? Treason is going against the government and as this site is REVOLUTIONARY left I assume you want to partake in a revolution, at least one that follows your specific beliefs, and that is considered treason. So treason is an absolutely bullshit "crime". Anyways, I believe in a crime rehabilitation center for murderers and rapists alike. The majority of every rape case is not because of sexual desire, it is because of control so if you make a society in which the community is healthier, it will decrease it but for those who still partake in it, you will send them to a rehabilitation center. In the society that I picture, prisons must be abolished as they only create more crime, but in terms of death penalty, no one should have that power.

What is the difference between a rehabilitation center and a prison? Of course you can argue that a rehabilitation center is more humane, but we can also make prisons more humane and focussed around rehabilitation. I'd only send the most serious of offenders to these rehabilitation camps.

Most petty offenders can do community work, things like that.

Edit - p.s., I didn't mean to put that "thumbs down" image at the beginning of my post - don't take any offense.

[ZeroNowhere]

The general socialist position is that capital should be killed.


Some people are just beyond rehabilitation.We cannot and shall not be able to prove that this is the case for any individual, unless they are also dying in a couple of seconds. What we do know is that if we don't attempt rehabilitation, they will most probably not be rehabilitated.

[Luisrah]

I oppose to capital punishment completely, although I don't think I could be happy with seeing my mother and father getting killed in horrible fashion, and let the guy get rehab.

Capital punishment is completely out of question. Some people having control over the lives of someone else is completely out of question.

But this is a tricky one. If I got home and saw a guy hitting my parents with a hammer in the head, and this happening for 2 hours with them alive, suffering all that time, I'd most surely shoot some fucking bullets in that guy's legs.
Heck, I'd shoot every damn finger and toe that guy had.
I dreamt about this once, and I woke up crying because it really looked real. It was a really strong feeling, and still I can't imagine how it would be if it was real.

Losing a dear one in horrible fashion is not easy for sure. What is easy is to say that ''he'll go into rehab'' or ''he is sick, he needs help''.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't rehab criminals, but if we are to do that, than the victims (let's not forget about the victims) need a very high psychological help (or psychiatric or whatever). It's not only the murderer that needs rehab.

So, criminals should go into rehab, and if he is beyond rehab then leave him in jail (in case he is conscious about what he did, and did it because he wanted truly to do so, and in this case, it would be even better to give him some work to do) or leave him in a proper place (in case he is sick crazy)

And never forget the victims, they need a lot of help, and it is obvious that they should get it absolutely free.

[WeAreReborn]

What is the difference between a rehabilitation center and a prison? Of course you can argue that a rehabilitation center is more humane, but we can also make prisons more humane and focussed around rehabilitation. I'd only send the most serious of offenders to these rehabilitation camps.

Most petty offenders can do community work, things like that.

Edit - p.s., I didn't mean to put that "thumbs down" image at the beginning of my post - don't take any offense.
Prisons aren't designed to help and never were. They are purely for containment purposes. The actual definition is, "A prison is a place of detention". A rehabilitation center wouldn't confine them just because you don't know what else to do with them, you would actively try to treat them. In the process you can have them exercise and if they show improvement let them move around within the premise freely. In a way it is like a prison as they cannot leave unless whoever is giving them treatment feels they are rehabilitated. But it would be a medical and sheltering environment, as opposed to a hostile and cruel one. This change may seem insignificant but environments affect people physiologically, and often this affect is great.

[WeAreReborn]

I oppose to capital punishment completely, although I don't think I could be happy with seeing my mother and father getting killed in horrible fashion, and let the guy get rehab.

Capital punishment is completely out of question. Some people having control over the lives of someone else is completely out of question.

But this is a tricky one. If I got home and saw a guy hitting my parents with a hammer in the head, and this happening for 2 hours with them alive, suffering all that time, I'd most surely shoot some fucking bullets in that guy's legs.
Heck, I'd shoot every damn finger and toe that guy had.
I dreamt about this once, and I woke up crying because it really looked real. It was a really strong feeling, and still I can't imagine how it would be if it was real.

Losing a dear one in horrible fashion is not easy for sure. What is easy is to say that ''he'll go into rehab'' or ''he is sick, he needs help''.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't rehab criminals, but if we are to do that, than the victims (let's not forget about the victims) need a very high psychological help (or psychiatric or whatever). It's not only the murderer that needs rehab.

So, criminals should go into rehab, and if he is beyond rehab then leave him in jail (in case he is conscious about what he did, and did it because he wanted truly to do so, and in this case, it would be even better to give him some work to do) or leave him in a proper place (in case he is sick crazy)

And never forget the victims, they need a lot of help, and it is obvious that they should get it absolutely free.
I agree about getting the victim's help, they have as much right as a criminal does to it. Yet if a a victim killed the murderer, the victim should be in a rehabilitation center for awhile since the experience was traumatic, but I feel the length of it should be reduced just due to the fact that it is natural. Don't take it wrong and say then you are fighting nature, it is just that revenge is natural but undesirable and you shouldn't be punished for it, if anything the rehabilitation would be exactly what one would need. This is what I feel anyways.

[Decolonize The Left]

i tried using the search feature to seek this out, but it yielded little results so i thought i would just ask...
What do you think the general feeling is among leftists regarding the death penalty? I know that there is a point of view that the majority of crimes commited in society are a result of the poor conditions that the capitalist system forces onto the populous, and thus with the introduction of an anarchist form of society, the need for police, prisons, judges, jails and the like, would be nil....And in the specific case of an Anarchist condition, the death "penalty" would be something sort of like an eye for eye i imagine, in the case of some kind of extreme anti-social behavior like murder....i really have no clue as to how a socialist society would confront the issue either.
There is a story in Japanese news running right now about a case of a man who murdered a young woman and her elderly mother in a pretty heinous sort of fashion...and in an apparently rare move, the jury has requested he receive the death penalty. I'm really unaware of the particulars, other than to say that his crime was pretty terrible, if indeed he did it. Something to the effect of multiple stab wounds to the face and body of the elderly woman....i don't know of the younger woman...
But it made me start to think...I can't say i'm a "supporter" of the death penalty,...but if someone did this kind of thing to my family members, i would have a hard time not feeling like they too should die. That's just how humans are i think....
What do you all know? any opinions?

Revolutionary leftists oppose capital punishment because we oppose state sanctioned murder.

Make note that capital punishment is not in any way equivalent to individuals acting on the emotions of vengeance and killing someone who they feel wronged them. The latter is an entirely acceptable human emotion, but we hope that the individual in question exercises restraint and opts to find a better solution.

Capital punishment, on the other hand, is nothing other than state-sanctioned murder. I oppose the state, so naturally I oppose the state legitimizing the murder of someone who was found guilty by another arm of the state.

- August

[PoliticalNightmare]

We cannot and shall not be able to prove that this is the case for any individual, unless they are also dying in a couple of seconds. What we do know is that if we don't attempt rehabilitation, they will most probably not be rehabilitated.

Fine but you do not "know" if they are rehabilitated. There have been many cases where psychopaths have effectively been able to make it seem that they are rehabilitated, only to re-enter society in a dangerous manner.


Prisons aren't designed to help and never were. They are purely for containment purposes. The actual definition is, "A prison is a place of detention". A rehabilitation center wouldn't confine them just because you don't know what else to do with them, you would actively try to treat them. In the process you can have them exercise and if they show improvement let them move around within the premise freely. In a way it is like a prison as they cannot leave unless whoever is giving them treatment feels they are rehabilitated. But it would be a medical and sheltering environment, as opposed to a hostile and cruel one. This change may seem insignificant but environments affect people physiologically, and often this affect is great.

That's fine but you could adapt prisons so they were like this. If you feel the necessity to distinguish between a prison and a rehabilitation centre then fine. I would not oppose the measures you have described for more dangerous offenders.

[EvilRedGuy]

I think peoples should atleast get 1 chance to change themself, and we can provide for psychopaths/mental ill peoples unless we are running out of resources/wasting alot of resources.

[Thirsty Crow]

Absolutely opposed.
Extremely dangerous individuals, as well as those for whom the majority does not believe that they can successfully pass rehabilitation, should be kept at bay, in an asylum or any other institution which provides medical and psychiatric care, and not murdered.
In my opinion, capital punishment is a residual social form which belongs to the middle ages. We (mankind) have found new ways to deal with the before mentioned individuals. Resorting to murder is unacceptable since it necessarily functions as a form of spectacle which reinforces the power of the state.

[Rêve Rouge]

It seems most people agree with the use of rehabilitation centers. But I have a question regarding that. What if the criminal chooses not to go into rehab (for whatever reason). Will the criminal be coerced to go into rehab? That is, in a socialist society where there is no state.

[WeAreReborn]

Fine but you do not "know" if they are rehabilitated. There have been many cases where psychopaths have effectively been able to make it seem that they are rehabilitated, only to re-enter society in a dangerous manner.



That's fine but you could adapt prisons so they were like this. If you feel the necessity to distinguish between a prison and a rehabilitation centre then fine. I would not oppose the measures you have described for more dangerous offenders.
For the first part please show evidence and maybe I will reconsider.

For the second, prisons cannot be reformed into something else beneficial. If they are they should no longer be called prisons. Then the definition should be change to rehabilitation center like we have been suggesting. For more dangerous offenders? I think petty crimes would be abolished since all petty crimes are either effects of social or economic hardship the former will be nearly gone, somewhat existent as it isn't a utopia, and the latter shall be abolished with the end of Capitalism.


It seems most people agree with the use of rehabilitation centers. But I have a question regarding that. What if the criminal chooses not to go into rehab (for whatever reason). Will the criminal be coerced to go into rehab? That is, in a socialist society where there is no state.
Unfortunately, if the commune agrees that the criminal needs rehabilitation and the center agrees then he must be forced. It is undesirable to force one to go but people aren't perfect even in a healthy society so it must be done to protect the community. Nevertheless, it will be humane and beneficial but in some cases it may be involuntary.

[PoliticalNightmare]

For the first part please show evidence and maybe I will reconsider.

I have no sources here but I believe that when paedophilia was first realised by the public to be an existent mental illness in Britain, it was believed that offenders could be treated via rehabilitation. These offenders were believed to be "rehabilitated" and allowed to re-enter society however they were found to re-offend.

Either case, my point was that with some of the more extreme cases, there is no scientifically accurate way of knowing if they are rehabilitated and perhaps, therefore, they should never be allowed to re-enter society unless we devise some new means of calculation.

[QUOTE[For the second, prisons cannot be reformed into something else beneficial. If they are they should no longer be called prisons.[/QUOTE]

Ok. I agree with rehabilitation centres in any case.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I absolutely oppose state-sanctioned murder.

I also oppose things like corporal punishment, in schools etc.

Later I will post a poll about this in politics and get a discussion going on the subject.

[blake 3:17]

The death penalty should be abolished. Anybody know which two revolutions abolished it?

Most prisoners shouldn't be in prison in the first place. In the case of people who are real dangers, confinement probably is necessary.

In terms of the most dangerous folks, most often serial killers, they should be jailed indefinitely but with regular reviews with the possibility of appeals.

There've been some curious cases in Canada that provide some interesting challenges. Paul Bernardo, who'll be in jail for the rest of his life, was convicted the help of his partner who got a pretty easy deal. The cops really effed up and needed her testimony. A repeat drunk driver recently got a life sentence -- I'm not sure they were put in one of the special categories of repeat offender or dangerous offender.