Gun Laws

[PoliticalNightmare]

Now, as an anti-authoritarian and an anarchist I want to say, "No, the state shouldn't be able to control what we can/can't do" and "The workers need protection against hostile capitalist and statist forces", etc. but the thing is that it would appear that in places like the US where guns are legal, there is more gun crime than in places like the UK where gun laws appear to be much stricter.

So what are your thoughts on these issues? This thread is mainly directed at fellow anarchists.

Cheers.

[Decolonize The Left]

Now, as an anti-authoritarian and an anarchist I want to say, "No, the state shouldn't be able to control what we can/can't do" and "The workers need protection against hostile capitalist and statist forces", etc. but the thing is that it would appear that in places like the US where guns are legal, there is more gun crime than in places like the UK where gun laws appear to be much stricter.

So what are your thoughts on these issues? This thread is mainly directed at fellow anarchists.

Cheers.

In short, there isn't going to be anything near a revolution without guns.

Political power is based upon economic power, which is upheld with the gun. In our current capitalist system, the political power of congress and the president is rooted in the economic power of the capitalist class. Yet this economic power is upheld via the military and the police.

For example, what happens when you strike? The police are called in.
What happens when a foreign nation elects a leftist government? The paramilitaries, and perhaps later the military, are called in.

The economic power is always supported, intertwined with, and reliant upon, the military power. So to answer your question, if the economic power were to shift from the capitalist class to the working class, the military power would have to shift as well. This can happen either with the military deciding to accept the will of the working class, or through battle. Either way, guns are necessary. And finally and perhaps most importantly, gun crime isn't a result of guns being legal, it is a result of a system which demands that individuals commit what are called crimes in order to move through the system in one way or another.

- August

[PoliticalNightmare]

In short, there isn't going to be anything near a revolution without guns.

Political power is based upon economic power, which is upheld with the gun. In our current capitalist system, the political power of congress and the president is rooted in the economic power of the capitalist class. Yet this economic power is upheld via the military and the police.

For example, what happens when you strike? The police are called in.
What happens when a foreign nation elects a leftist government? The paramilitaries, and perhaps later the military, are called in.

The economic power is always supported, intertwined with, and reliant upon, the military power. So to answer your question, if the economic power were to shift from the capitalist class to the working class, the military power would have to shift as well. This can happen either with the military deciding to accept the will of the working class, or through battle. Either way, guns are necessary. And finally and perhaps most importantly, gun crime isn't a result of guns being legal, it is a result of a system which demands that individuals commit what are called crimes in order to move through the system in one way or another.

- August

Good answer.

How about this then: if guns are to be used during the transition phase for the above reason, should their use remain legalised even after we have reached a classless, stateless society?

[Decolonize The Left]

Good answer.

How about this then: if guns are to be used during the transition phase for the above reason, should their use remain legalised even after we have reached a classless, stateless society?

You have a contradiction in terms. A classless, stateless society does not 'legalize' anything as the legal framework is bound by a state. So in short, yes, guns are legal. But in depth, they are not legal or illegal as there is no 'law' as we understand it today. For what we understand as law is a series of rules and regulations which are enforced by the state supposedly at the will and in the interest of the people. But this last part is controversial as we are aware that the will and interest is that of the capitalist class, not the people as a whole.

- August

[PoliticalNightmare]

I just said the word 'legalized' for simplicity sake.

[Decolonize The Left]

I just said the word 'legalized' for simplicity sake.

I understand. Did I answer your question? I guess the long answer is that the adaptability of communism is in the worker's control. So you may have that in one place guns are legal and carried by all. In another they may be legal but kept at home. In another they may be illegal, but the community has decided that militias shall be in charge of possessing the legitimate use of force on a rotational basis.

There are so many possibilities for law enforcement when private property has been abolished. As for guns, I imagine that they will not be as necessary as they are now, though they certainly will be present to one degree or another.

- August

[PoliticalNightmare]

I understand. Did I answer your question? I guess the long answer is that the adaptability of communism is in the worker's control. So you may have that in one place guns are legal and carried by all. In another they may be legal but kept at home. In another they may be illegal, but the community has decided that militias shall be in charge of possessing the legitimate use of force on a rotational basis.

There are so many possibilities for law enforcement when private property has been abolished. As for guns, I imagine that they will not be as necessary as they are now, though they certainly will be present to one degree or another.

- August

Yeah, that makes perfect sense actually and that way the 'laws' that are superior will more likely get spread around different communities rather than inferior laws. I'd like to say "Yes, guns should be 'legal'" but it is hard to say without being able to have an accurate vision of what a future communist society should look like.

I think that guns will not only have reduced necessity but I also think that people will be less likely to use them for crime when the social problems that capitalism/statism present are out the window.

Cheers

[Psy]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense actually and that way the 'laws' that are superior will more likely get spread around different communities rather than inferior laws. I'd like to say "Yes, guns should be 'legal'" but it is hard to say without being able to have an accurate vision of what a future communist society should look like.

I think that guns will not only have reduced necessity but I also think that people will be less likely to use them for crime when the social problems that capitalism/statism present are out the window.

Cheers

I wouldn't say laws as it would be dealt with more through planning, after the revolutionary armies have performed their role there would likely be heavy support to reduce the amount of arms to some extent (at least in getting rid of nuclear weapons).

Thus in that regard nuclear weapons there would be no need to make them illegal they simply would not be produced and those that already exist would be ordered to be disassembled. If it moved down to armor same thing, no new armored vehicles would be produced while those that exist would be disassembled (except a number probably be set aside for historical preservation). The point is that could easily be handled through production plans.

Small arms is where there probably be a divide but really I personally don't see it being an issue as crime would probably go down due to the success of fulfilling the needs of the people.

[RedMaterialist]

it would appear that in places like the US where guns are legal, there is more gun crime than in places like the UK where gun laws appear to be much stricter.



Almost all gun crimes in the U.S. are committed by the unemployed, mentally ill who cannot get treatment. So it is 90% a class issue. However, as Marx said:

"Universal arming of the people. " Demands of the Communist Party of Germany, 1848. Marx, favorite of the NRA?

[Vendetta]

Now, as an anti-authoritarian and an anarchist I want to say, "No, the state shouldn't be able to control what we can/can't do" and "The workers need protection against hostile capitalist and statist forces", etc. but the thing is that it would appear that in places like the US where guns are legal, there is more gun crime than in places like the UK where gun laws appear to be much stricter.

So what are your thoughts on these issues? This thread is mainly directed at fellow anarchists.

Cheers.

1: America is a big country, much larger than the UK, with huge stretches of nothingness as borders.
2: It's easier for the UK to prevent the flow of guns into it for the exact opposite reason.
3: If it's easy for criminals to get their hands on guns, they'll use them.

And, if you try to take away my gun, we'll have problems. Where do you expect a revolution to go without guns?

[RedMaterialist]

1: America is a big country, much larger than the UK, with huge stretches of nothingness as borders.



So are China and Russia.

[Vendetta]

Well, yeah. And? I'm not sure where you're trying to go with that.