Lack of Certain Rights in Communist Cuba (questions)

[cub]

I am hoping to gain a better understanding of how communists feel about the lack of [certain] human rights in Cuba. I’ve had the following experiences when visiting Cuba and would like to know how communists feel about these things…

1. Cuban citizens are not allowed to eat at many restaurant throughout Cuba; they can only go to the ones designed for citizens. I was told that the Cubans with me were not allowed in but that I was. After I put up a fight, they let them in one place. In another restaurant, the Cuban with me looked American and wasn't bothered.

2. Cuban citizens are not allowed to go to the better beaches, or beaches where tourists are at. One of them told me he thought he would be imprisoned if caught talking and sitting with me on the beach. I visited one of the beaches where the citizens could go and it was nowhere near as nice.

3. In some, not all, situations, Cuban citizens can be placed in jail, simply for talking to Americans. There was a real fear with some people but this was NOT happening often so I don't want to imply that. It was a concern at some times, though.

4. Cuban citizens are not allowed Internet access but journalists visiting Cuba are. I saw this with my own two eyes.

5. Cuban citizens are not allowed to read literature that goes against what their government tells them they can read. I understand that some books are banned in the US but they are not banned everywhere in the US. IE: Mark Twain’s “Huckleberry Finn” is not allowed in some schools but I can buy it at my local bookstore.

6. Cuban citizens cannot leave their country to visit another country.

7. Cuban citizens were not allowed to practice Christianity/Catholicism for a long time.
　
　
　
Thank you for your response.
　

[PoliticalNightmare]

I am hoping to gain a better understanding of how communists feel about the lack of [certain] human rights in Cuba. I’ve had the following experiences when visiting Cuba and would like to know how communists feel about these things…

1. Cuban citizens are not allowed to eat at many restaurant throughout Cuba; they can only go to the ones designed for citizens. I was told that the Cubans with me were not allowed in but that I was. After I put up a fight, they let them in one place. In another restaurant, the Cuban with me looked American and wasn't bothered.

2. Cuban citizens are not allowed to go to the better beaches, or beaches where tourists are at. One of them told me he thought he would be imprisoned if caught talking and sitting with me on the beach. I visited one of the beaches where the citizens could go and it was nowhere near as nice.

3. In some, not all, situations, Cuban citizens can be placed in jail, simply for talking to Americans. There was a real fear with some people but this was NOT happening often so I don't want to imply that. It was a concern at some times, though.

4. Cuban citizens are not allowed Internet access but journalists visiting Cuba are. I saw this with my own two eyes.

5. Cuban citizens are not allowed to read literature that goes against what their government tells them they can read. I understand that some books are banned in the US but they are not banned everywhere in the US. IE: Mark Twain’s “Huckleberry Finn” is not allowed in some schools but I can buy it at my local bookstore.

6. Cuban citizens cannot leave their country to visit another country.

7. Cuban citizens were not allowed to practice Christianity/Catholicism for a long time.
　
　
　
Thank you for your response.
　


If this is all true, then I think it is disgusting.

If I may ask a stupid question though - if cuban citizens may not visit beaches, restaraunts, etc. what is the point of having them? Are they there exclusively for tourists or something?

[Sir Comradical]

No offence, but that sounds an awful lot like one big steaming pile of Miami bullshit.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

4. Cuban citizens are not allowed Internet access but journalists visiting Cuba are. I saw this with my own two eyes.

Can you elaborate on this?

[cub]

I don't know. The better beaches, like in Varadero, do cater to tourists. I can't answer this because I don't know. I was told by the Cuban people that they could be put in jail just for talking to me in some of these places. I don't know what's true or not. I can only say what I experienced. Am curious if anyone responding here is communist, though. When I spoke to a friend in L.A. who is communist, he defended all these things. I didn't know if it was just him or the communist party as a whole that would defend these things.

[cub]

That first response was to PoliticalNightmare.

Sir Comradical, I understand your reply and I'm not offended.

SocialismorBarbarism, you can look this up on the net. They are not allowed net access. At one point, I was with a journalist and there was a group of them and they all had to go to a room to use computers already set up for them. My guess is that it would have been very difficult to get a phone line to work long distance. When I tried calling the states from Cuba, it was not easy. I had to wait a couple days to get through.

[cub]

"The hidden hand of the market will never work without the hidden fist—McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies is called the United States Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps." - Thomas Friedman (an honest reactionary)

This is a good quote. It makes me think.

[El Rojo]

this doesn't answer yr question, but i think it will still hopefully be useful. there is no such thing a a communist country. its a contradiction in terms. communism can only be achieved with the abolition of nation states

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

That first response was to PoliticalNightmare.

Sir Comradical, I understand your reply and I'm not offended.

SocialismorBarbarism, you can look this up on the net. They are not allowed net access. At one point, I was with a journalist and there was a group of them and they all had to go to a room to use computers already set up for them. My guess is that it would have been very difficult to get a phone line to work long distance. When I tried calling the states from Cuba, it was not easy. I had to wait a couple days to get through.

Well just because the journalists have seperate computers they are exclusively allowed to use doesn't mean there aren't other computers used by Cubans, just as there are seperate beaches for tourists. Citizens probably have access to dial up due to the expense of getting high speed internet due to the US' economic blockade.

And yes, this is a board for communists. There are many communist parties, some pro-Cuba and some anti-Cuba.

[cub]

I can't argue this because I only know what I saw and what I was told on several occassions by the people but I'd be pretty darn shocked if they had access to the net. The ones I spoke to said they were not allowed to get on the net and nobody even had a computer. Where would they get one? They're driving cars from the 50's and using beds and refrigerators and furniture from decades ago. The "stores" in Cuba that I saw, and I saw quite a few, had about 5 or 10 things in them. That is not an exaggeration. There would be one used T-shirt, one used toaster, one used alarm clock, etc. It was a joke. There WERE better stores with more merchandise, stereos and toilet paper and canned foods, but those stores only took American dollars and there were never any computers. Cubans can't pay with American dollars. Those stores are for tourists. Most of that stuff was old and used.

[cub]

El Rojo, can you explain what you mean?

[Aloysius]

El Rojo, can you explain what you mean?
I believe what he means is that Communism, to my limited knowledge, calls for the abolition of the state and class systems. How goods are distributed is up to the discretion of those that made them. A Socialist state, like the early Soviet Union or Cuba, has a government to determine how goods are distributed. Production is, for the most part, in the hands of the workers, but it varies from place to place.
I've read on this forum that the only semi-Socialist state left was Cuba, that the others, like China, are state-capitalist countries.

[Pretty Flaco]

Cuba is only socialist in name. Sure, they might be a lot better off than when they were under Batista, but that's not saying much.

I'm not sure whether to believe you or not about the beaches and restaurants, but I think it's ridiculous that the Cuban government would restrict Internet access.

The Internet helps connect people on an international scale!

[RedMaterialist]

I am hoping to gain a better understanding of how communists feel about the lack of [certain] human rights in Cuba. I’ve had the following experiences when visiting Cuba and would like to know how communists feel about these things…



According to a report http://cnas.tamu.edu/publications/4645%20Tourism/Tourism%20and%20Agriculture%20in%20Cuba.pdf by Texas A&M University (one of our top bourgeois universities) Cuban citizens can go to any hotel or restaurant they can afford. For a brief look at Cuban bloggers, google "cuban blog." Cubans are allowed to visit some countries, like U.S. citizens who are allowed to visit some but not all, like Cuba.

Reading your post I have to say it sounds like propaganda.

[cub]

I read through the link (tamu.edu) and I didn't see where it says that Cuban citizens can go to any hotel or restaurant they can afford. Can you tell me which paragraph it is? It's short and I didn't see it. In any case, I can't speak for a publication I had nothing to do with. I can only speak from my experiences and unfortunately, I didn't spend as much time there as I would have liked, but what I did see left me with concerns.

[Public Domain]

Cuba is only socialist in name. Sure, they might be a lot better off than when they were under Batista, but that's not saying much.

I'm not sure whether to believe you or not about the beaches and restaurants, but I think it's ridiculous that the Cuban government would restrict Internet access.

The Internet helps connect people on an international scale!
The United States' Economic Blockade effected Cuba's ability to connect to the internet catastrophically.

The world is connected by the web with underwater internet cables.

Even though there is an underwater high-speed internet cable underwater just North of Havana, Cuba is not allowed to be a part of it, even though pretty much every single other country on the planet is connected.

So Cuba has to get internet by satellite.

That's expensive/slow.

[cub]

Forgot to add... You say you are going to Google to look up "cuban blog" and then seeing that Cubans are allowed to visit countries. If you can be way more specific, that would help. I don't believe everything I read, much less, from a blog. But let's say it's true that Cuban citizens can leave their country and visit other countries. Where are they going to get the funds? I can't speak for the Cuba you read about.
I only know what I saw. No one had funds to purchase airplane tickets. Except... in Cuba, the citizens pay one tenth, I think it is, of what tourists pay for an airline ticket. So, from Havana to Sangtiago, it cost me $90 and the Cuban citizens paid $9. Outside of Cuba, I can't see that they would be granted that kind of gratuity but maybe I'm wrong. Everyone there told me they were not allowed to leave. Their response was, "We don't have any reason to leave. This is our home."

[cub]

Public Domain,
How does the US have the capability to make it so Cuba is "not allowed" to get on the net? I don't get it. Can you be specific?

[RadioRaheem84]

I am hoping to gain a better understanding of how communists feel about the lack of [certain] human rights in Cuba. I’ve had the following experiences when visiting Cuba and would like to know how communists feel about these things…

1. Cuban citizens are not allowed to eat at many restaurant throughout Cuba; they can only go to the ones designed for citizens. I was told that the Cubans with me were not allowed in but that I was. After I put up a fight, they let them in one place. In another restaurant, the Cuban with me looked American and wasn't bothered.

2. Cuban citizens are not allowed to go to the better beaches, or beaches where tourists are at. One of them told me he thought he would be imprisoned if caught talking and sitting with me on the beach. I visited one of the beaches where the citizens could go and it was nowhere near as nice.

3. In some, not all, situations, Cuban citizens can be placed in jail, simply for talking to Americans. There was a real fear with some people but this was NOT happening often so I don't want to imply that. It was a concern at some times, though.

4. Cuban citizens are not allowed Internet access but journalists visiting Cuba are. I saw this with my own two eyes.

5. Cuban citizens are not allowed to read literature that goes against what their government tells them they can read. I understand that some books are banned in the US but they are not banned everywhere in the US. IE: Mark Twain’s “Huckleberry Finn” is not allowed in some schools but I can buy it at my local bookstore.

6. Cuban citizens cannot leave their country to visit another country.

7. Cuban citizens were not allowed to practice Christianity/Catholicism for a long time.
　
　
　
Thank you for your response.
　


Lots of things do not add up with the OP's post.

The Cuban with you looked American? There are a lot of white cubans, it;'s not like another cuban is going to say, "hey that guy looks white american", which is obviously what you mean.

Citizens can go to Cuban beaches. The point is that the tourist areas are usually too expensive for Cubans.

Richard Levins wrote in an article for Monthly Review about how he would have heated debates with Americans on the Cuban Bus. He quoted one of the ladies on the Bus as saying that you cannot speak your mind in Cuba, using it as an ironic quip on how freedom of speech is more pervasive than even Cubans would like to admit.

The other things comrades in here have addressed but the rest of your stuff does represent a mish mash of usual complaints people read on the net about Cuba, things that the Cuban people have struggled with politically and socially.

[Pretty Flaco]

The United States' Economic Blockade effected Cuba's ability to connect to the internet catastrophically.

The world is connected by the web with underwater internet cables.

Even though there is an underwater high-speed internet cable underwater just North of Havana, Cuba is not allowed to be a part of it, even though pretty much every single other country on the planet is connected.

So Cuba has to get internet by satellite.

That's expensive/slow.

Can you give me some sources for that? I've never heard that before, actually. :huh:
So it's banned in Cuba because only the upper class can afford it?

[cub]

Revolutionary Awesome, I found this link: (spelled it out cuz it wouldn't take)

www DOT reuters DOT com SLASH article SLASH idUSTRE65H3H320100618

[cub]

km1818,
I can't find anything on that tamu link that says Cuban citizens can eat at any restaurant they can afford. Which paragraph are you referring to? It's short and I can't find it. In any case, I would suggest going there instead of believing what you read, including what I'm telling you. You'll find out for yourself.

If you get this twice, sorry. I sent it before and it wasn't published. :crying:

[Public Domain]

I heard about it a long time ago, and this isn't my original source. But it basically explains it.

"'The Havana Internet is a limited bandwidth service, slow and expensive ( 8-10 US $ for one hour) because the communication goes through satelite and the bandwidth is limited.
The faster cable transmission is blocked by the US due to the Cuban economic trade embargo."

I'm not allowed to psot links yet (god that's frustrating) so you'll have to do the obvious crap with this:

www DOT havana-guide DOT com SLASH havana-internet DOT html

Also this mention in Pravda:

english DOT pravda DOT ru SLASH opinion/columnists/29-07-2010/114424-another_empire_lie_that_cuba_hi-0

Apparently Cuba has been building a cable with Venezuala.

opennet DOT net SLASH blog/2010/06/cuba-and-venezuela-connect-through-socialism-fiber-optic-cable

[RedMaterialist]

I read through the link (tamu.edu) and I didn't see where it says that Cuban citizens can go to any hotel or restaurant they can afford. Can you tell me which paragraph it is? It's short and I didn't see it. In any case, I can't speak for a publication I had nothing to do with. I can only speak from my experiences and unfortunately, I didn't spend as much time there as I would have liked, but what I did see left me with concerns.

The link is 3 pages long.

[RedMaterialist]

km1818,
I can't find anything on that tamu link that says Cuban citizens can eat at any restaurant they can afford. Which paragraph are you referring to? It's short and I can't find it. In any case, I would suggest going there instead of believing what you read, including what I'm telling you. You'll find out for yourself.

If you get this twice, sorry. I sent it before and it wasn't published. :crying:

Well, I would like to go, but my democratic, free, government says it is illegal.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

As far as I knew there were quite a lot of Cubans who had access to the internet through things like internet cafes, post offices and school...

[Obs]

Guys I heard that in Cuba you're not allowed to have cats and if you have a cat and it has kittens Fidel Castro will personally come to your house and PUNCH every single one of the kittens is this true??

[Sosa]

This seems a bit fishy to me. My mother-in-law has been to Cuba twice, the last time was this summer. She went with a group from her church to do a bible summer school for a couple of weeks. From the people I know that go to Cuba and Cuban themselves, I have never heard about cubans being thrown in jail for talking to Americans. I can almost be certain thats not true.

Regarding the internet...Cuban and Venezuela have come to an agreement to run an underwater cable to Cuba to allow access to a greater amount of citizens. It's not that Internet is banned, its just that because of the blockade, Cuban has limited choices when providing internet and its super expensive. Same goes for cell phones (although I read that is changing soon).

A good website is wwwDOTcubadebateDOTcu

[RedMaterialist]

Guys I heard that in Cuba you're not allowed to have cats and if you have a cat and it has kittens Fidel Castro will personally come to your house and PUNCH every single one of the kittens is this true??

And punch them till they are dead, and force the owner to eat them. Of course, sometimes Castro makes the owner eat them alive.

[L.A.P.]

Cuba is only socialist in name. Sure, they might be a lot better off than when they were under Batista, but that's not saying much.

I'm not sure whether to believe you or not about the beaches and restaurants, but I think it's ridiculous that the Cuban government would restrict Internet access.

The Internet helps connect people on an international scale!

Cuba really can't get internet access not because they restrict but because most internet connection goes through the US and there is that stupid embargo.

[Manifesto]

This seems a bit fishy to me. My mother-in-law has been to Cuba twice, the last time was this summer. She went with a group from her church to do a bible summer school for a couple of weeks. From the people I know that go to Cuba and Cuban themselves, I have never heard about cubans being thrown in jail for talking to Americans. I can almost be certain thats not true.

Yeah I think this is suspicious too. My uncle went to Cuba recently and he didn't say anything negative about it. Hell, he even said the people there were really nice when he talked to them, didn't mention anything about poverty but that he felt it was weird how there were not a million signs trying to get you to buy something.

[La Comédie Noire]

I think we're stuck until someone who has actually been to Cuba can confirm or deny what he is saying. There is always the possibility he is lying and just reading off a list of conservative talking points.

Could you possibly tell us what the context of your trip to Cuba was and maybe some specific examples of what you described?

[Comrade Chris]

That's not Communism, so you shouldn't say Communist Cuba. That's not what Che fought for.... hopefully the people of Cuba realize they're being lied to and rise up.

[cub]

Revolutionary Awesome,
You said, "Sure, they might be a lot better off than when they were under Batista, but that's not saying much." That's a pretty strong statement coming from a communist. Can you explain?

Public Domain,
Thanks for the links.

km1818,
If you want me to get what you're saying, you need to cut and paste it here. I didn't find it. Either way, if you want to know the truth, you need to visit Cuba. You can believe what you read on the net or you can see it for yourself.

Manifesto,
You said, "Hell, he even said the people there were really nice when he talked to them, didn't mention anything about poverty but that he felt it was weird how there were not a million signs trying to get you to buy something."
Maybe you can help me understand what he considers "poverty." There are no signs to buy anything because there is nothing to buy, unless you are a tourist.

There's a joke in Cuba that all the Cubans know. No matter what region you are in, they will tell it to you...

An American asks a Cuban, "What do you want to be when you grow up?"
The Cuban replies, "A tourist."

Comrade Floyd,
You said, "I think we're stuck until someone who has actually been to Cuba can confirm or deny what he is saying. There is always the possibility he is lying and just reading off a list of conservative talking points. Could you possibly tell us what the context of your trip to Cuba was and maybe some specific examples of what you described?"

You're 100% right and I'm glad you said this. You have no idea who I am so why should you believe me? You shouldn't. You should go for yourself. Already did state some examples, you can scroll back up to the beginning. The things I wrote about all happened, first-hand. But your point is well taken. Because what's happening here, which makes sense b/c it's the Internet, is that people are just mouthing off this and that and the other without any first-hand experience. Me telling you what I experienced is worthless b/c (1) we're on the net and it has no real value, and (2) it's all heresay. What I'm telling you is not heresay but to YOU it is heresay. And there is no such thing, especially here, as having an objective opinion. You are all prejudice (so am I) so what you hear is going to filter through your prejudice minds (just like it would with me). The only real way to find out the truth is to experience it yourself. I went through Mexico.

Comrade Chris,
You said, "That's not Communism, so you shouldn't say Communist Cuba. That's not what Che fought for.... hopefully the people of Cuba realize they're being lied to and rise up." I don't think I wrote "Communist Cuba" but if I did, or whoever did, can you explain what you mean? What are they being lied to about and what should they rise up against?

Thanks ;)

[Revolution starts with U]

Furthermore, Cuba has something to say on the subject of doing business with or in Cuba. The dreaded "Law of Protection of National Independence and the Cuban Economy," contains a series of measures aimed at discouraging contact between foreign nationals and Cuban citizens. These measures can be used against any non-Cuban who might contact a Cuban citizen. The law provides for jail terms of up to 30 years in aggravated cases. United States citizens are particularly subject to triggering provisions of this law, and may unwittingly cause the arrest and/or imprisonment of any Cuban whom they may contact.


And what does this Law 88 state?



The law calls for seven to 15 years' imprisonment for passing information to the United States that could be used to bolster anti-Cuban measures such as the US economic blockade. This would rise to 20 years if the information is acquired surreptitiously. The legislation also bans the ownership, distribution or reproduction of 'subversive materials' from the US government, and proposes terms of imprisonment of up to five years for collaborating with radio and TV stations and publications deemed to be assisting US policy


Provisions:



Whereas, the Government of the United States has dedicated itself to promoting, organizing, financing and directing counterrevolutionary and imperialist elements inside and outside the territory of the Republic of Cuba. For four decades it has invested significant financial and material resources to carry out numerous covert activities in order to destroy the independence and economy of Cuba, using to such end individuals recruited within the national territory, as has been recognized by the Central Intelligence Agency since 1961 according to a report released in 1998




Article 9 outlaws ‘any act intended to impede or prejudice the economic relations of the Cuban state’ with penalties of up to 15 years. This can be extended if violence, blackmail or other illegal means are used; if private profit is obtained as a result; or if the United States government takes punitive measures in reprisal. The remaining articles cover incitement of others to commit any of the above acts; distribution of US funds or materials for these activities; and collaboration with third states sympathetic to US aims in Cuba.



Hardly a democratic law, and one I would not personally support. But, you make it seem Cubans have to flee the streets when a tourist comes to town.

[Revolution starts with U]

Revolutionary Awesome,
You said, "Sure, they might be a lot better off than when they were under Batista, but that's not saying much." That's a pretty strong statement coming from a communist. Can you explain?\
It means trading one dictator for another is not socialism.


Manifesto,
You said, "Hell, he even said the people there were really nice when he talked to them, didn't mention anything about poverty but that he felt it was weird how there were not a million signs trying to get you to buy something."
Maybe you can help me understand what he considers "poverty." There are no signs to buy anything because there is nothing to buy, unless you are a tourist.
"However, the Human Development Index of Cuba still ranks much higher than the vast majority of Latin American nations"
"Cuba's poverty level is one of the lowest in the developing world, ranking 6th out of 108 countries, 4th in Latin America, and 48th among all countries"
So, obviously you're wrong. Cuban poverty rates are very low, even if growth is as well. Certainly they stand miles above capitalist Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_issues_in_Brazil).


There's a joke in Cuba that all the Cubans know. No matter what region you are in, they will tell it to you...

An American asks a Cuban, "What do you want to be when you grow up?"
The Cuban replies, "A tourist."
I'm sure this is true :rolleyes:
I doubt you have ever even been to Cuba now...


Comrade Chris,
You said, "That's not Communism, so you shouldn't say Communist Cuba. That's not what Che fought for.... hopefully the people of Cuba realize they're being lied to and rise up." I don't think I wrote "Communist Cuba" but if I did, or whoever did, can you explain what you mean? What are they being lied to about and what should they rise up against?

Thanks ;)
It means that state capitalism (when the state employs and act like a capitalist enterprise) is not socialism, or communism. A cursory glance at real socialist literature and you will find it had always been vehemently anti-state, viewing it as legalized thuggery protecting the interests of the wealthy.
Socialism is worker control of the means of production, and production based on need. Certain "leftist" dictatorships tried to impose socialism from the top down. And it had some beneficial aspects, regardless of what mainstream indoctrination (i mean media) tells you. But it's not socialism, it is state capitalism.

[cub]

Does this website have a problem with freedom of speech? Every time I log on, I can't find my thread. Why do I have to go to the search engine to find my thread?

Also, I'm new here. I'd like to make a comment about some people's comments. You lose integrity and respect when you say things that are derogatory in nature --even if their slight or hinted at. There is a lot of that on this site and it's unfortunate. All it does is make me think little of the people that are doing it. Not just referring to my thread. Communism, socialism, anarchism --these are highly controversial subjects. IMO, it would behoove this website to have people "converse" in ways that were healthy and intellectual. When people start bashing, they sound like they have NO knowledge base at all. It's as if they lack all understanding and have to resort to being less. Not an influential way to be.

[brigadista]

just to clarify - did you say you went to varadero?

[Revolution starts with U]

It comes up in the list for me. I don't have to search. Perhaps there is something wrong with your browser?

[cub]

brigadista,
No. I was very, very close but skipped it. Now I wished I had. I hear the sand there is white and soft. Went to other Cuban beaches and on one of those beaches, a young Cuban man was with me that looked very American (like he was from California; he was teased for it) :D and he was SO quiet. I kept talking to him, asking him all kinds of things about life in Cuba and he kept his mouth shut unless nobody was around. He said if he opened his mouth, he'd end up in jail. He was worried that his accent was going to give him away.

Why do you ask? Have you been there?

[brigadista]

brigadista,
No. I was very, very close but skipped it. Now I wished I had. I hear the sand there is white and soft. Went to other Cuban beaches and on one of those beaches, a young Cuban man was with me that looked very American (like he was from California; he was teased for it) :D and he was SO quiet. I kept talking to him, asking him all kinds of things about life in Cuba and he kept his mouth shut unless nobody was around. He said if he opened his mouth, he'd end up in jail. He was worried that his accent was going to give him away.

Why do you ask? Have you been there?

yes all over the island and i avoided varadero .. i spent a lot of time talking to cubans because i speak spanish and I used the internet .

[Revolution starts with U]

It seems to me that you were wearing an american flag on your shirt, or something like that when you went? I've been asking people all day, and no one I have talked to has said that ordinary tourists cannot talk to Cuban people, nor that Cubans avoided them because they were tourists.

[brigadista]

just to say and i have posted this before that i went to cuba then a couple of months later to the usa to visit friends in the mid west- i saw more poverty in the mid west- shockingly so -than
i saw in cuba and i was not at all comfortable about having a political discussion with anyone i didn't know in the US.

[cub]

Hi brigadista,
There is definately poverty in the US. It's a relative term and hard to define when comparing one country to another.

Is there an example of communism that you would consider succesful that has ever taken place in the world?

[brigadista]

two things
to your first statement why is poverty suddenly relative when i mention american poverty?
and to your second question - no

[RadioRaheem84]

Hi brigadista,
There is definately poverty in the US. It's a relative term and hard to define when comparing one country to another.

Is there an example of communism that you would consider succesful that has ever taken place in the world?

Oh man, I cannot believe we fed this troll that much.

If he were any sense a real socialist or even interested in socialism, he would not have asked the 2nd question.

There is nothing relative about poverty, and how convenient that it becomes relevant when applied to the US but not Cuba.

Look, Cuba is not a paradise. There are a lot of problems for the working class in Cuba, but their trials and tribulation are not as harsh as what their neighbors in Haiti or the Dominican Republic have to endure.

I should ask you is there a successful example of capitalism?

If you say yes; the United States or Sweden, then I have to tell you that most of the developed nations live off the poorer countries and they're able to afford the many services their working classes have fought for.

With Communism people at least have a modicum of decent standard of living and for the most part accomplished these goals without resorting to imperialism.

Cuba is under the worst kind of economic embargo out there coupled with an imperial regime that has given them hell since they formed the Cuban Republic.

[cub]

brigadista,
That was the wrong word. What I meant is that some people consider certain populations to be living in poverty and those populations don't always know any better and don't always consider themselves to be living in poverty, and that comparing one population to another isn't always clear. In other words, someone in Cuba might not think they're living in poverty, but to my standards, it's poverty. But all you have to do is look at the homes and buildings in Havana or Santiago or anywhere else. If it's a government building, it's in good shape and it's painted well. If it's a home, it has been left to decay.

With your 2nd answer, thanks. But nowhere? Why hasn't it? Could it happen here in the US?

[Sosa]

sounds like a troll to me...:blink:

[Revolution starts with U]

Poverty rates are not measured in relative terms. It is a set $'s/day income. THe only thing poverty is relative to is the price of living (like 5 zimbabwe dollars /day is not the same as 5 usd/day because the cost of living is so different).

[Revolution starts with U]

When you say Cuban poverty is relative (meaning cuban poverty is poorer [sic] than US poverty) do you mean like this;
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&biw=1276&bih=798&q=detroit+houses&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g-s1g1g-sx1g2g-msx1g-m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

^ that's a google images search for "Detroit houses"

[Sosa]

There's just something that isn't right with cub assessment of cuban society. I'm not saying he's lying. And I have never been there to experience cuban society firsthand. But I have close friends and family who have been there multiple times and their experience has been the opposite of what cub describes. I can only go on what my wife, mother-in-law, uncle and some close friends of mine have experienced there, and it's not even close to what cub describes.

[cub]

Maybe "relatively speaking" is a better term but to be honest, I'm not exactly sure why it came across the wrong way. Maybe somebody can explain why it was taken in a bad way and that would help me understand your perspective. If it's explained in a derogatory way, I'm not going to respond to it so it might be a good idea to explain in a civil way.

There is a quote on this site that says something I believe in wholeheartedly and I took it as if everyone here would abide by that same principle of thought. Would be nice if that happened but since it's not, I basically scroll over someone's comments once they're rude.

"Learning A place for beginners and learners to ask their political questions about theory or specific issues. Don't worry if you think your questions are stupid or pointless, ask away. Learning is not stupid and is never pointless."

[cub]

Sosa,
I think you *should* go by what they describe. I'm not trying to change anybody's views. They're your family so you should trust them. If and when you ever get a chance to go, you can come up with your own ideas. Until then, hear their stories. I'm sure they're telling you the truth. What I experienced is my own experience. Your family wasn't with me so how would they know it to be true? Conceivably, if I had traveled a different route, I might have experienced a completely different Cuba.

I purposely went with very little money. I stayed in people's homes the entire time. The people were warm and loving. Had I stayed in hotels, I would have never seen Cuba. Also, I speak Spanish so that helped a lot. And I have never once said that everything is wrong with Cuba. There is a lot going on in Cuba that is good. Cuba is rated very high, environmentally. Every environmentalist will tell you that Cuba is tops on their list. Also find it pretty amazing that they are able to feed their entire country. They are on a quota and it's not ideal but people do have food. Also never said I love everything about the US. I can find plenty of things to put down about how this country works.

But that's not what I came here for. I specifically came here to find out if communists were okay with what was happening in Cuba. Period. I found out that all of you pretty much don't like what I put out. That makes me happy. That tells me you don't like what I said. That's a good thing, in my opinion. That tells me you don't like what's going on, whether or not you believe it to be happening.

Hope that makes sense. :rolleyes:

[Revolution starts with U]

Other than a few "might be a troll" responses, who is being "derogatory" to you? I have not seen anyone call you stupid, nor your responses. No one told you to go away.
It seems like the most pertinent responses, you gloss over.. you can see why people suspect trollism, no?

EDIT: that last response clears a lot up on your positions.

[Sosa]

Cub, I hope you didn't take my "troll" comment as being derogatory.

I'm not trying to cast doubt on your assertions, I'm just genuinely surprised by your experience because it's the first time I've ever heard of such an experience as yours.

[cub]

Sosa,
My apologies. I said "you" and I didn't mean you. I meant a general you. Yikes, it's hard to communicate on the web sometimes. I could care less if somebody thinks I'm a troll. I like trolls. Trolls challenge. I think they should welcomed. I think the problem with sites that don't like trolls is that they don't welcome the challenge. They want the troll to go away but in reality, the troll will never go away. The troll is your next-door neighbor. So if you can find a way to love the troll and take the troll as a blessing and see the troll as a way to learn and a way to educate, then you have mastered the troll. If you blow the troll off or be rude to the troll or ban the troll, then you have made the troll into a much bigger enemy and he will go away feeling like you have validated the beliefs he came here with.

Now this is to the general you... ;)

I'm not a communist so if I'm not allowed to be here b/c I'm not a communist, then ban me. I want to be honest and up front. Also wouldn't call myself a socialist or an anarchist, or even a capitalist, to be honest. I don't love everything capitalistic. I can find plenty of things wrong with capitalism. But I don't hate it like people here hate it and there are more things about capitalism that I like than the "communism" I see in places like Cuba. So if I had to choose b/w what I see happening in Cuba and the capitalism in the US, hands down I would choose the US.

Am genuinely confused about communism b/c it seems to me that there is an idealistic communism and then there is something that actually takes place.

Peace :)

[Vendetta]

Can you give me some sources for that? I've never heard that before, actually. :huh:
So it's banned in Cuba because only the upper class can afford it?

http://news.cnet.com/2300-1033_3-6035611.html

Note the circle around Cuba.

[Revolution starts with U]

Really, only fascists are banned outright (and mostly for legal reasons). You would just get restricted and placed in OI. (But you agreed to this when you signed up).
I would like to know what you consider "better" about the US system compared to socialist top-down experiments that have been/are being implemented in the world? Do you favor US capitalism, or european "capitalism with a human face (social democracy)?"
Are you taking this in context; slavery, warfare, imperialism, native american holocaust, standard of living off the backs of the 3rd world?

EDIT: Any attrocity you can attribute to communism, can also be attributed to capitalism. THe only difference was population levels.

[cub]

I said that hands down I would choose the US over Cuba. Can you explain "Socialist top-down experiments implemented in the world." That would help.

"Are you taking this in context; slavery, warfare, imperialism, native american holocaust, standard of living off the backs of the 3rd world?"

That's all? I can name more than that. :D

I'm not attributing any atrocity to "communism" b/c pure communism is different and much more peaceful and idealistic than the so-called "communism" that exists in the world today. What I mean from my comment --in a nutshell-- is that, given all the abuse that goes on in Cuba and all the abuse that goes on in the states, I am glad that I was born in the USA and live here instead of being born in Cuba and living there.

Do you wish you had been born in Cuba?

Thanks for a healthy debate ;)

[cub]

ps: Why is veganism on this site? What does it have to do with these topics? Thanks-

[Magón]

If I had a definitive choice on the matter, I'd choose to live in Cuba instead of the US any day.

[Sosa]

I would also live in Cuba given the choice. I wouldn't have to worry about being in debt, that's for sure.

[RadioRaheem84]

The only reason why it would be preferable at all to live in the US is because the US has the advantage of allowing for greater freedoms because of it's imperial domination over other nations, that and the fact that workers fought for the rights I enjoy. Other than that, the US economic system gave me nothing.

The Cubans suffer from an economic embargo that even right wing businessman say is crazy and purely a political ideological position. They also suffer constant sabotage, terrorism and threat of annihilation from the Northern Imperial neighbor, which is another thing to attribute to any deficiency in their democracy.

Even with all that, the Cubans continue to press on with their revolution. They've allowed for many Cubans to not end up like their Haitian and Dominican neighbors who suffer from Western exploitation.

Life is tough in Cuba. Tougher than it is here in some ways but overall the standards of living still out pace the rest of America Latina.

Imagine if the economic embargo were lifted and Cuba was allowed to recoup it's 90+ Billion dollar a year loss instead of relying on a rickety system that it does now. Imagine if the US would stop all sorts of political and economic sabotage to it's character and allowed it to flourish, imagine what that little country might become.

It should be noted that Cuba was pretty much fine and quite a nice place to live in the 60s, 70s and early 80s. It wasn't until the Special Period where stuff really hit the fan. During the 90s things decayed severely and gave the right wing the perfect photo op to show the "failure of Communism".

You obviously miss the big picture.

By a poor Guatemalan standards the former USSR, the Blocs, China or Cuba would've been a paradise, but these nations did not engage in the rampant plundering of resources of the third world.

The Western Nations are "better" because of the rich's imperial ventures and the working class's struggle to get a piece of the surplus.

[Magón]

Life is tough in Cuba.

Life is tough all over the world. Cuba is no different than say those living in Venezuela, or even halfway around the world in Vietnam. (Just to name some Red countries.)

Believe me, I've lived there for several years, and visited when I no longer did.

[Revolution starts with U]

I would be just as revolutionary if I were a cuban national, if that's what you're asking. But I wouldn't go so far as to say Cuba is worse than the US. There are a lot of good things to Cuba, and a lot of bad... just like any statist system really.
Granted, I would probably have been thrown in a jail cell early in my life for making fun of the leadership (if that's how Cuba operates, honestly idk).

[cub]

No, I want to know if you'd live there. If you say yes, explain to me why you're not moving. All you people saying you'd rather be in Cuba can move there tomorrow. Marry a Cuban woman. Otherwise, your answers lack credibility.

[RadioRaheem84]

I see you trollin'.....

[Sosa]

No, I want to know if you'd live there. If you say yes, explain to me why you're not moving. All you people saying you'd rather be in Cuba can move there tomorrow. Marry a Cuban woman. Otherwise, your answers lack credibility.

1. I don't have the money to make such an international move.

2. That is a stupid argument to make. I don't have any family or friends who live in Cuba so I don't see any point in making such a move at this point in my life. The only other place I'll move to is Dominican Republic because that's where the majority of my family lives and I'll probably end up retiring there.

3. I'm already married...and unfortunately my wife has no interest in moving there. (She wants to move to Dominican Republic!)

Ok, this person if definitely a troll...I gave them the benefit of the doubt, but this guy is trollin'

[Magón]

No, I want to know if you'd live there. If you say yes, explain to me why you're not moving. All you people saying you'd rather be in Cuba can move there tomorrow. Marry a Cuban woman. Otherwise, your answers lack credibility.

Well if you want to pay for the rest of my schooling? (I've got a year and a half left of Uni) Then I'll gladly move with the money I save up not having to put it towards my school stuff.

I've still got friends in Cuba, we write each other sometimes. But because of schooling and how much money it sucks from my wallet, I've got limited resources to make such a move. Plus, I'm not the marrying type. Don't believe in the whole State Marriage jargon.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Moving there wouldn't be bad, but then I realize Cuba will be better off when there is socialist revolution in USA than not having one. This is a true credibility.

[Hiero]

I am hoping to gain a better understanding of how communists feel about the lack of [certain] human rights in Cuba. I’ve had the following experiences when visiting Cuba and would like to know how communists feel about these things…

1. Cuban citizens are not allowed to eat at many restaurant throughout Cuba; they can only go to the ones designed for citizens. I was told that the Cubans with me were not allowed in but that I was. After I put up a fight, they let them in one place. In another restaurant, the Cuban with me looked American and wasn't bothered.

2. Cuban citizens are not allowed to go to the better beaches, or beaches where tourists are at. One of them told me he thought he would be imprisoned if caught talking and sitting with me on the beach. I visited one of the beaches where the citizens could go and it was nowhere near as nice.

3. In some, not all, situations, Cuban citizens can be placed in jail, simply for talking to Americans. There was a real fear with some people but this was NOT happening often so I don't want to imply that. It was a concern at some times, though.

4. Cuban citizens are not allowed Internet access but journalists visiting Cuba are. I saw this with my own two eyes.

5. Cuban citizens are not allowed to read literature that goes against what their government tells them they can read. I understand that some books are banned in the US but they are not banned everywhere in the US. IE: Mark Twain’s “Huckleberry Finn” is not allowed in some schools but I can buy it at my local bookstore.

6. Cuban citizens cannot leave their country to visit another country.

7. Cuban citizens were not allowed to practice Christianity/Catholicism for a long time.
　
　
　
Thank you for your response.
　


From my experience being in Cuba in 2007 as part of an tour run by the Australia Cuba Friendship Society and the Cuban government:

1) Cuban locals were not allowed in certian tourist areas. In certain areas tourist are also directed towards the tourist areas away from local areas. So for instance we went to get ice cream and we were directed by staff towards the tourist ice cream shop. Then at bar there was up stairs for tourist and down stairs for locals. At a hotel a Chilean-Australian asked for a taxi and it took a long time because they thought he was Cuban, the taxi came after they realised he was a tourist and on a special visa. Then again the cities are open for locals and tourist to intermingle, you can shop at local markets (which have permits to sell to tourists). You are not barred from interaction with locals, but the government attempts control of economic interaction between tourists and locals.

Note this is not done in any overt oppressive way, we were weren't made to feel like kings and locals weren't beaten back by secrete policy.

2) I think there are tourist designated beaches, I am not sure how this is regulated.

3) That doesn't sound right, it would be impossible to police and I saw Americans interacting with the locals.

6) A local young Adult had been sent to study in Norway, the local community sponsered here. If you have the money I don't see why not.

7) I think it was just discouraged. During our family stay, one Australian stayed with a family that openly practised Evangelicalism.

I think that some of the things you described and I witnessed in Cuba have actually not to do with political repression and denial of rights, but rather with the management of tourist economy with the national economy and local economies. International Tourism is heavy geared towards Western working class, middle class families from all countries (in the case of Bali of Australians), young adults and bourgeiosie from all countries.

Most third world countries try to seperate the tourists from the locals, and carve out 1st world standards amonsgt othewise poverty, tourist colonies. This often appears as natural, as a division of money "they can't afford it". In a socialist state the seperation would appear less natural, it would appear that it is the hand of coericion that seperates tourist from the local rather then the real divide between tourist and local which exists in geo-political (First world V Third World) .

[Revolution starts with U]

I stay here in the states because I'm a revolutionary. The only time I'm leaving the states is when it becomes socialist. And when it does, it's off to the next area to spread the good word.
I don't think anybody here said it was some kind of paradise. But I would feel no better/worse as a person if I were living in Cuba, the States, China, or Denmark.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I can tell you for a fact that 2, 3 and 5 are certainly not true. Cubans are very well read, visit all the beaches/places in Cuba just like anyone else and can talk to whoever they like, about whatever they like, without fear. I can promise you that. I've seen ordinary Cubans with western books and been to beaches and spoken with Cubans.

As for christianity, you should really keep up with the news - the pope has visited Cuba, christianity, whilst not a state religion, is seemingly available to be practised in Cuba.

The restaurant thing is debatable. I'm not too sure about this. Mainly it's a money thing - the nicer restaurants are directed at tourists, with CUC prices. It's mainly to do with the double currency devaluing the labour (and thus wages) of Cuban workers.

Again, in terms of travel I don't know, so cannot say.

The point about internet access is true, though some more privileged Cubans (I believe they are privileged, anyway!) can access e-mail but not web browsers. This is more a point of accessibility - even for tourists, internet access is horrendous; it's sporadically available and extremely slow. I have a feeling that if they built up the infrastructure then people would be able to view it, i.e. it's not the state banning ordinary Cubans from using the internet, but it simply being prohibitive in terms of price and usability.

Hope this helps.

[brigadista]

santeria/lucumi is more popular in Cuba than xtianity

[cub]

Thanks for the comments. Hiero, I appreciate yours much.

To the people that said they would rather be in Cuba but had all kinds of reasons why they aren't there --Can you understand why it's difficult to believe in your cause when your answer doesn't line up with your convictions?

To the person that has a wife and that's why he's not leaving, that's a fair argument. But if you were a communist before you got married, did you wish you lived in Cuba then and if so, why did you stay here?

Revolutionary with a U said he's in the US b/c he's a revolutionary --that makes more sense to me. If I wanted to make a change, I would stay in the states to try and make a change. But if you state that you'd rather live in Cuba, then staying in the states doesn't make any sense.

If I may make a suggestion... If you want a revolution, you are either going to have to take the country by force (with weapons) or you are going to start having to convince millions of people. Since you're not taking it by force, you need to start convincing. That's fair, isn't it?

Otherwise, you're preaching to the choir here.

If you really want to start a revolution, it might be a good idea to answer the simple, bare-bone questions that are bound to come your way. Saying you'd rather live in Cuba but living in the US *begs* the question: Then why aren't you moving? If you respond to that question simply and honestly, then you have already made a change. If you respond to that question with defensiveness, then you've hurt your cause.

[cub]

brigadista,
I think you might be right but when did Santoria really take a hold in Cuba? I was under the impression that it may have been building but that it didn't take hold until after Fidel took power. My thought is that Christianity, especially Catholicism, had a much stronger influence before Fidel took power. I know I've read about the pope having strong statements against Christianity being shunned in Cuba and that Castro heard his comments (prior pope) and then allowed it.

When I make comments about Cuba, I am in NO WAY stating that the US is righteous in all its policies. People here make a LOT of assumptions. Very difficult to have a conversation with someone that's constantly assuming that when you said... you meant... About 85% of the responses I've received are based on misunderstandings b/c people have made so many assumptions. You don't know me from Adam. Stop assuming. Ask. It's the appropriate, intellectual, intelligent thing to do.

One of many ass-umptions... That b/c I said that Cuba is in poverty, I must think that the poverty in Cuba is worse than the poverty in the US.

There is such a thing as "critical thinking." That means that you don't draw a line from A to Z. That you go through all the steps in between.

There are people in the US that are way poorer than the people in Cuba. If you are homeless, or if you are not receiving help from the government for whatever reason and you live in a rat-infested shack in a run-down, high drug area, you've got a real problem. Worse than the people in Cuba.

[Sosa]

Thanks for the comments. Hiero, I appreciate yours much.

To the people that said they would rather be in Cuba but had all kinds of reasons why they aren't there --Can you understand why it's difficult to believe in your cause when your answer doesn't line up with your convictions?

To the person that has a wife and that's why he's not leaving, that's a fair argument. But if you were a communist before you got married, did you wish you lived in Cuba then and if so, why did you stay here?

Revolutionary with a U said he's in the US b/c he's a revolutionary --that makes more sense to me. If I wanted to make a change, I would stay in the states to try and make a change. But if you state that you'd rather live in Cuba, then staying in the states doesn't make any sense.

If I may make a suggestion... If you want a revolution, you are either going to have to take the country by force (with weapons) or you are going to start having to convince millions of people. Since you're not taking it by force, you need to start convincing. That's fair, isn't it?

Otherwise, you're preaching to the choir here.

If you really want to start a revolution, it might be a good idea to answer the simple, bare-bone questions that are bound to come your way. Saying you'd rather live in Cuba but living in the US *begs* the question: Then why aren't you moving? If you respond to that question simply and honestly, then you have already made a change. If you respond to that question with defensiveness, then you've hurt your cause.

1. I am not a communist, I'm a socialist
2. I wasn't a socialist before I married
3. As I said in my earlier post, even If I wanted to move I don't have the money to do that and I don't have family there
4. Just because I like Cuba doesn't mean I have to move there.
5. Just because I would move to Cuba doesn't mean I could. Unless you're a citizen, life would be very expensive to a foreigner like me.

[cub]

Tried including this but it didn't go through. Sorry for the extra post.

Sosa said:
"I would also live in Cuba given the choice. I wouldn't have to worry about being in debt, that's for sure."

So that's going to make me wonder what is stopping you from moving there, since you said you'd live there if you had the choice.

Then you said:
"I don't have the money to make such an international move."

That's a fair argument. I'm assuming you live in the US. I don't know how old you are. If it's true that you REALLY WOULD rather live there, then it's fair to wonder if you are working hard to save money so that you can move there. Otherwise, your comment comes across as an off-the-cuff comment you didn't really mean.

"That is a stupid argument to make. I don't have any family or friends who live in Cuba so I don't see any point in making such a move at this point in my life."

If it's stupid, then you need to come to the realization that you're the one that's making it. You're the one that said you'd move. Saying you don't have any family or friends there sounds like a total copout. Make them.

Nin said:
"If I had a definitive choice on the matter, I'd choose to live in Cuba instead of the US any day."

Then he said:
"Well if you want to pay for the rest of my schooling? (I've got a year and a half left of Uni) Then I'll gladly move with the money I save up not having to put it towards my school stuff."

You think I should pay for your schooling b/c I'm asking you to walk your talk? :D
Try to put yourself in my position. Here's what you're telling me... You're going to a university (in the US?) so that you can move to Cuba. Does that sound believable to you? If you're being honest, please explain, otherwise please understand that it sounds like total bogus.

PS: I never said a communist in the USA needs to move to Cuba. You all said you'd move there. I don't think you have to move to Cuba to back up your communist beliefs. I do think you need to go out into the communities, though, and speak up so that other people will understand you and speak up so that you spread the word. If you are truly revolutionary, you wouldn't JUST be on this site. So I think it's entirely fair to say you have communistic beliefs and still live in the US. But you all were the ones that said you'd move to Cuba.

[Sosa]

Tried including this but it didn't go through. Sorry for the extra post.

Sosa said:
"I would also live in Cuba given the choice. I wouldn't have to worry about being in debt, that's for sure."

So that's going to make me wonder what is stopping you from moving there, since you said you'd live there if you had the choice.

Yes. Given the choice between A. USA and B. Cuba. And I've already listed whats stopping me. Did you forget?



Then you said:
"I don't have the money to make such an international move."

That's a fair argument. I'm assuming you live in the US. I don't know how old you are. If it's true that you REALLY WOULD rather live there, then it's fair to wonder if you are working hard to save money so that you can move there. Otherwise, your comment comes across as an off-the-cuff comment you didn't really mean.

Like I said, my wife has no interest in moving there so even if I REALLY WOULD rather live there, I can't. But you ignore that completely



If it's stupid, then you need to come to the realization that you're the one that's making it. You're the one that said you'd move. Saying you don't have any family or friends there sounds like a total copout. Make them.

You're argument is stupid, not the idea of moving to Cuba. I'd also LOVE to live in Paris, London, Tokyo...but that doesn't mean it's possible for me to do. I still stand by my comment that if I was given the choice I would move there. And then I pointed out why its not feasible for me to make such a move.

[Magón]

Nin said:
"If I had a definitive choice on the matter, I'd choose to live in Cuba instead of the US any day."

Then he said:
"Well if you want to pay for the rest of my schooling? (I've got a year and a half left of Uni) Then I'll gladly move with the money I save up not having to put it towards my school stuff."

You think I should pay for your schooling b/c I'm asking you to walk your talk? :D
Try to put yourself in my position. Here's what you're telling me... You're going to a university (in the US?) so that you can move to Cuba. Does that sound believable to you? If you're being honest, please explain, otherwise please understand that it sounds like total bogus.

Are you trolling? Seriously, are you trolling what I said? That's an absolutely reasonable reasons why I can't move to Cuba. If you don't know about US Higher Education aka College/Uni, then you don't know how much money it takes from people. (That's why people in the US, and I'm sure in Europe, etc. have so much Educational Debt on their hands.) You make no actual reason why it's "bogus".

I ACTUALLY DID LIVE IN CUBA off and on, in my younger years before my family moved to the US, and like I said, I've been there on trips several other times before. (visiting friends and what not.) But taking a vacation to Cuba, and upping with everything I have or want to take, and moving there forever, are two very different things. Give me an actually reasonable reason why it's "bogus" to you.

[Sosa]

How do trolls get banned?

[RadioRaheem84]

The guy is a troll, simple as that. The questions he raises are meant to probe us for sign of "leftist hypocrisy" not intellectual discourse. He couches his posts in terms that presuppose rightist ideology.

[Magón]

How do trolls get banned?

By getting restricted to OI.

[Sosa]

By getting restricted to OI.

I think cub should be restricted then.

[Revolution starts with U]

Ok Cub, I did it. I moved to Cuba last night. I'm now living in a small town outside Havanna called Batabano.
You probably don't believe me. That's fine. But the only way you'll know for sure is if you come to Batabano and find out. 6194 Biblioteque Pl. I'll make some coffee.
If you insinuate I'm a liar I will take it hostile, as if you have no argument, and simply not respond.
Cheers :thumbup:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Thanks for the comments. Hiero, I appreciate yours much.

To the people that said they would rather be in Cuba but had all kinds of reasons why they aren't there --Can you understand why it's difficult to believe in your cause when your answer doesn't line up with your convictions?

To the person that has a wife and that's why he's not leaving, that's a fair argument. But if you were a communist before you got married, did you wish you lived in Cuba then and if so, why did you stay here?

Revolutionary with a U said he's in the US b/c he's a revolutionary --that makes more sense to me. If I wanted to make a change, I would stay in the states to try and make a change. But if you state that you'd rather live in Cuba, then staying in the states doesn't make any sense.

If I may make a suggestion... If you want a revolution, you are either going to have to take the country by force (with weapons) or you are going to start having to convince millions of people. Since you're not taking it by force, you need to start convincing. That's fair, isn't it?

Otherwise, you're preaching to the choir here.

If you really want to start a revolution, it might be a good idea to answer the simple, bare-bone questions that are bound to come your way. Saying you'd rather live in Cuba but living in the US *begs* the question: Then why aren't you moving? If you respond to that question simply and honestly, then you have already made a change. If you respond to that question with defensiveness, then you've hurt your cause.

You seem to be mistaking peoples' positions. Cuba is a lovely country in terms of its natural position, natural resources in terms of food etc. It's a pleasant place to be. It's also Socialist. This, however, doesn't mean that any card-carrying Socialist is just going to up sticks and move. That doesn't make us hypocrites. It's a shame you don't understand that some of us have fought and worked hard to build relationships, get an education and fight for our cause right where we are. What would moving to Cuba prove or achieve?

Also, you don't really seem like a Socialist. Are you a Socialist? Do you believe in revolution as a means to achieving the end of Capitalism?

I am suspicious of your uncritical opposition to Cuba. As someone who has been there independently, I can confirm that it's not, in fact, the hell-hole that some people make it out to be. It has its problems, but overall it's not an unpleasant place for Cubans at all.