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Bilan
23rd October 2010, 13:00
I just recently got the first ever issue of the Socialist alternative (http://www.sa.org.au/)s theoretical publication, Marxist Left Review.

The publication begins with their first opponent: the Australian Greens.
It is titled "A Marxist critique of the Australian Greens".
The depth of this Marxist analysis, however, goes no further than the title.


Claims about the class composition of the Greens (and it's supporters):

The central claim that SAlt makes against the Greens is that their political outlook is inherently 'middle class'.
It defines middle class in three, ultimately meaningless ways.
The first is that Greens voters tend to be "tertiary educated white collar workers" (page 9).
The second definition, as part of the first (somehow) is that workers are defined by who they're employed by:
"state bureaucracy, lawyers, doctors, middle/high-grade professionals, professors and senior academic staff, middle managers and small business owners" (page 10).
They then go on later to recognise the ambiguity of their (the above mentioned) relationship to production (page 10).

However, with some of these, their actual relationship to the means of production isn't strictly ambiguous.
Particularly when one is only referring to the colour of a collar and whether one has a tertiary education or not.
To negate the rise of white collar workers in the West is foolish. As most people are aware, since the 1960s manufacturing has been outsourced from "developed economies" and Western economies into "developing" economies, due more than anything to the cheaper prices of labour.
It is worth recognising that this has caused a rift to form between the working classes sense of identity and it's actual identity.
To many, a worker wears a boiler suit and works in a factory. They do not wear nice shoes and a suit.
This dichotomy is, however, fictitious . What separates white collar workers and blue collar workers is where they work, not what class they're from.

This can be demonstrated, perhaps most clearly, by their income.


Rental, Hiring and Real Estate Services $63,175
Construction $65,816
Public Administration and Safety $68,177
Education and Training $68,921
Electricity, Gas, Water and Waste Services $71,557
Financial and Insurance Services $76,487
Information Media and Telecommunications $77,033
Professional, Scientific and Technical Services $77,761
Mining $103,111
source.

This is sourced from the ABS (there is a link at the bottom of this post).
As anyone can see, miners are some of the highest paid workers in the country, and yet they are working class in anyones eyes (Even the Socialist Alternatives).
The rise in income isn't determined by what is traditionally working class and what isn't.

On this level, the Socialist alternative has simply failed to engage with reality.

If we assess the Socialist Alternatives claims on this level of income, and it's relationship to the Greens, we see more.
The Socialist Alternative claims that "around half" of their (the Greens) votes come from people who earn an annual salary of/above $70,000 (page 15).
However, the average annual salary of Australian's sits closely, at $64'595, and in Western Australia and the ACT, the average annual salary is higher, 70'210 and 75'348 respectively.
It should be added that miners, on average, earn 35'000 more than the national average, and 30'000 more.

In addition to that, does income actually reflect real wages?

70'000 annually is about 1346 a week, which is a relatively comfortable wage...depending on where you're living, if you're living by yourself (dependents, etc). Does it factor in how often a person works?
That wage, 1346 a week, averages out to be just over $30.00 an hour (if working a 40 hour week) [However, it is likely that it would be a bit higher than this, presuming it is 1346 after tax)

The average work week (2005)


Average weekly hours for all workers declined in all occupation groups between 1997 and 2005. The largest decline was for Managers and administrators, from 48.2 hours per week to 44.6 hours between 1997 and 2005. This was followed closely by Associate professionals, from 42.8 hours to 39.5 hours over the same period. People working in these two occupations worked the longest average weekly hours in 2005, and these were also the only occupations with declines of more than 3.0 hours per week over the period.

Intermediate production and transport workers had the smallest decline in average weekly hours (0.1 hours) to 38.1 hours in 2005, while average weekly hours for Intermediate clerical, sales and service workers declined (0.2 hours) to 30.3 hours. Labourers and related workers and Tradepersons and related workers also had a relatively small decline in average hours. All other occupations had a decline of between 1.1 and 3.6 hours per week between 1997 and 2005.

On miners:


Most industries that experienced an increase in average weekly hours between 1995 and 2005 also had higher average hours than the average across all industries in 2005 (34.7 hours per week). For example, average weekly hours in Mining increased 2.3 hours over the period to 45.5 hours per week, while in Communication services there was a 1.3 hour increase to 37.5 hours per week. Personal and other services was the only industry which had lower than total average hours in 2005 (33.5 hours per week) and which also experienced an increase (0.2 hours) in average hours from 1995.

ABS (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/7d12b0f6763c78caca257061001cc588/0f152d0eab2c88bdca2571b000153da2!OpenDocument)

There is another interesting claim within this article:

"It suggests (the self-indentification of Labor voters as "working class") are less important for the Greens than they are for Labor" (page 17).
What is this claim supposed to mean? The fact that 'around half' (page 17) of Labor voters self-identify as working class is an utterly meaningless fact.
The fact that only one third of Greens voters do is an equally meaningless fact.
This is especially because self-identifying as working class and then voting for the Labor party is a poor sign of class consciousness, as the Labor party has been notorious for stabbing workers in the back, and utilising the unions to keep workers in line (See articles on "Fair Pay" legislation under Rudd, or just about anything about the Keating era in Australia - including a book by the Socialist Alternative!).
IF a worker were class conscious, why would they vote for a party that uses their classes name and history as a way of oppressing it? That is not tantamount to class consciousness.

The final claim I will deal with hear is one of the key aspects to the critique: the fact that the Green's party is not an 'activist party' (page 20).
This, they say, might not seem important to "armchair leftists" but is rather telling.
The Greens have, according to SAlt, almost no presence whatsoever in the "union movement and on the campuses" (page 20).
One of the key examples used is related to some young Greens members trying to drum up support for the party during the election, and not over any issues in particular: not in relation to the NT intervention, not in relation to gay marriage rights, not in relation to Palestinian solidarity and not in relation to labor bureaucrats in the unions (page 20).

The first response I make to this is: and?
The second is: of what significance is that to anything at all, ever?
The socialist alternative claims that it out numbers Greens members on campuses "at least 4 to 1" (this claim is not sourced).

What is important here is what the Socialist Alternative claims the Greens ought to be focusing on.
But what about the issues that are actually affecting students? Why does the Socialist alternative negate the ridiculous costs of universities? The underfunding by the government? The fact that most students are forced to work as casuals, where they have absolutely no rights whatsoever in the work place (the rate of casualisation is closed to 30% of the work force in Australia, see the ABS)? Why don't they mention anything about the ABCC when most universities right now are going under some form of reconstruction, where there are construction workers on site who are affected by the draconian measures of the ABCC? Why not bring up the fact that new austerity plans have been leaked in Adelaide, and there have been demonstrations against these plans? Why not relate students to other students? Why not bring up the exorbitant fees international students are forced to pay, and the precarious work they're forced into (whilst being denied the right to work for more than 20 hours a week while at university, and also being denied the right to student travel [this is a big issue in Sydney where transport prices are through the roof])?
There are a plethora of issues that could be brought up to raise student awareness and build solidarity between workers and students.
But these issues aren't important by the sounds of it.

On top of that, I'm not trying to suggest the issues SAlt mentioned aren't important, but that you can't just show up onto a campus and ram down a message that students wont relate to - even if there are four of you there.

To conclude, it is quite apparent that when this theoretical journal was published, it wasn't reviewed very thoroughly. There seems to be a relatively overt abandonment of Marxist conceptions of class, a fetishism of the activist circus and a peculiar approach to "rebuilding the left" in Australia.

Bilan
23rd October 2010, 13:32
I will add more to this.

Niccolò Rossi
24th October 2010, 10:29
Thanks for making this thread Bilan. I picked up a copy of the monthy SAlt mag from one of their blokes on campus earlier this week (him and a couple of others were standing around in the main tower building for three days handing out flyers for the student elections and getting people to sign a petition in support of same-sex marriage rights). They had an advert for the Review but I didn't think to ask and pick up a copy. Without reading the article I can't really comment on it, but I do understand SAlts position in-so-far as they communicate it in the monthly mag. I would like to add some things to what you've said.

I think your most penetrating point you make is your last one, but even there I think you miss the mark slightly.


...the fact that the Green's party is not an 'activist party' (page 20).
[...]
The Greens have, according to SAlt, almost no presence whatsoever in the "union movement and on the campuses" (page 20).
One of the key examples used is related to some young Greens members trying to drum up support for the party during the election, and not over any issues in particular: not in relation to the NT intervention, not in relation to gay marriage rights, not in relation to Palestinian solidarity and not in relation to labor bureaucrats in the unions (page 20).
[...]
What is important here is what the Socialist Alternative claims the Greens ought to be focusing on.


I want to emphisise these points.

SAlts political critique of the Greens essentially boils down to the Greens failure as a 'left-wing alternative'. For SAlt the problem with the Greens is not that they are a bourgeois party whole-heartedly committed to the perpetuation of capitalism but that they refuse to take up their rightful place as leaders in a fight for left-wing social reform. In their monthly press SAlt chastise the Greens for not advancing effective* struggle for pulling the troops out of Afghanistan, LGBTI rights, reducing carbon emission, ending mandatory detention of refugees, etc.

The problem isn't what SAlt believe the Greens should be fighting for, but the desire for the greens to advance better tactics itself. I think is the heart of SAlts critique of the Greens, which, as it should be obvious is fatally flawed.

SAlt's faulty class analysis of the Greens, and/or their failure to draw the correct conclusions from it leads them to put false faith in the Greens. SAlt is thus faced with the perpectual failure of the Greens to be something that they are not.

Nic.

* Read: activist as opposed to parliamentary

Die Neue Zeit
24th October 2010, 15:30
Translation: the SA-istas have Popular Frontist illusions with the Australian Greens, just like similar illusions with the American Greens.

Bilan
25th October 2010, 07:30
Translation: the SA-istas have Popular Frontist illusions with the Australian Greens, just like similar illusions with the American Greens.

Part of their critique is on how the 'left' in the Greens isn't willing to challenge the more conservative right (which they associate with the Tasmanian section and the SA section).
I think part of the 'goal' of this critique is to undermine the illusions that 'lefties' have when it comes to the Greens.
However, all they did was expose their own faulty conceptions and illusions.

In saying that, I do not think that the Greens have a 'popular frontist' illusion with the Greens. They're trying to dispel the myth.

Bilan
25th October 2010, 07:42
Thanks for making this thread Bilan. I picked up a copy of the monthy SAlt mag from one of their blokes on campus earlier this week (him and a couple of others were standing around in the main tower building for three days handing out flyers for the student elections and getting people to sign a petition in support of same-sex marriage rights).

Were they simultaneously shouting "support refugee rights"?



They had an advert for the Review but I didn't think to ask and pick up a copy. Without reading the article I can't really comment on it, but I do understand SAlts position in-so-far as they communicate it in the monthly mag.

Unfortunately, they wont be putting the review online for free. If you want to read this one, you have to purchase it.
I wouldn't recommend it. I'll lend you my copy when I see you.



I think your most penetrating point you make is your last one, but even there I think you miss the mark slightly.

Much of the critique I wrote up then was done very late. The part about 'adding more' was in regards to this.
There are a number of things that needed to be added to it: there needs to be a more thorough critique of their 'class analysis', and it's inherently bourgeois and divisive; the development of class consciousness (or, is class consciousness synonymous with identifying as working class? [no]); what is the significance of presence in unions (and why are they advocating the Greens should have any presence on them - it's a peculiar criticism on their part); and their fetishism of 'activism'.

Though I think your point touches on the second last quite well.





I want to emphisise these points.

SAlts political critique of the Greens essentially boils down to the Greens failure as a 'left-wing alternative'. For SAlt the problem with the Greens is not that they are a bourgeois party whole-heartedly committed to the perpetuation of capitalism but that they refuse to take up their rightful place as leaders in a fight for left-wing social reform. In their monthly press SAlt chastise the Greens for not advancing effective* struggle for pulling the troops out of Afghanistan, LGBTI rights, reducing carbon emission, ending mandatory detention of refugees, etc.

The problem isn't what SAlt believe the Greens should be fighting for, but the desire for the greens to advance better tactics itself. I think is the heart of SAlts critique of the Greens, which, as it should be obvious is fatally flawed.

SAlt's faulty class analysis of the Greens, and/or their failure to draw the correct conclusions from it leads them to put false faith in the Greens. SAlt is thus faced with the perpectual failure of the Greens to be something that they are not.

Nic.

* Read: activist as opposed to parliamentary

Although I agree, I also think it is worth emphasising what SAlt thinks a "left wing alternative" should advocate - i.e. better social policy and a 'stronger' union movement.

Rousedruminations
25th October 2010, 10:15
I dont know if this is even relevant here,...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/25/3047552.htm

Labor Senator Doug Cameron says party rules that prevent MPs from speaking out or voting against the party line is akin to having a "political lobotomy".


The former union leader, who is the co-convenor in the national left of the Labor Party, says Labor is in danger of creating "zombie politicians".


And he says it is "absolutely crazy" for Labor to say it is a progressive party but refuse to support gay marriage.


His criticisms come as today's Nielsen poll in the Fairfax press showed Labor losing support to the Greens.


Senator Cameron says MPs should be able to voice their views beyond the caucus if they disagree with party policy.

"I still don't think it is sufficient just to have behind-closed-doors debates on key issues," he told The World Today.


"I think the party needs to have a voice on a range of issues with a range of different views.


"I've always taken the view that difference of opinion is not a weakness, it's a strength and I think that has been lost in the party.


"We don't want zombie politicians."
Prime Minister Julia Gillard has again today ruled out support for gay marriage by Labor but



Senator Cameron says he strongly disagrees.


"I just think it is absolutely crazy for a progressive party," he said.


"I just don't understand it, and to be honest, you are not allowed to speak about this in public from where we are and I just think that is an example of where we need to change."
Despite the pressure from the left, Ms Gillard says the rules will not be changed and MPs have ample time to debate issues in caucus.


"I want our caucus to be a place of debate, but we come from a political party that believes we are strengthened by being members of a team and the way the team works is we have those discussions internally," she said.
Greens Senator Christine Milne says her party is picking up support from Labor because the ALP has moved to the right in recent years.


"It has tried to sit in the middle of the road and has got run over in a lot of those seats - that's the classic case because they are losing the progressive vote to the Greens," she said.


"Then they try to go back further to the centre to pick up the more conservative votes and the Coalition pulls them further to the right and so they lose more of those votes on the progressive side of politics."

This proves that there is tension and left wing pressure in the labor pary to realign themselves to perhaps support gay marriage - the party right now is no way progressive right now as the former union leader doung camerson says, confounding the working class who have historically voted for them. So now most of labors votes are going to the green which is unfortunate.

Living in melbourne this sucks.

perhaps if the green party made an alliance with a marxist /socialist organization ( The socialist Equality Party) .. im sure by then labor would definitely be intimidated

Bilan
26th October 2010, 00:01
I dont know if this is even relevant here,...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/25/3047552.htm

Labor Senator Doug Cameron says party rules that prevent MPs from speaking out or voting against the party line is akin to having a "political lobotomy".


The former union leader, who is the co-convenor in the national left of the Labor Party, says Labor is in danger of creating "zombie politicians".


And he says it is "absolutely crazy" for Labor to say it is a progressive party but refuse to support gay marriage.


His criticisms come as today's Nielsen poll in the Fairfax press showed Labor losing support to the Greens.


Senator Cameron says MPs should be able to voice their views beyond the caucus if they disagree with party policy.

"I still don't think it is sufficient just to have behind-closed-doors debates on key issues," he told The World Today.


"I think the party needs to have a voice on a range of issues with a range of different views.


"I've always taken the view that difference of opinion is not a weakness, it's a strength and I think that has been lost in the party.


"We don't want zombie politicians."
Prime Minister Julia Gillard has again today ruled out support for gay marriage by Labor but



Senator Cameron says he strongly disagrees.


"I just think it is absolutely crazy for a progressive party," he said.


"I just don't understand it, and to be honest, you are not allowed to speak about this in public from where we are and I just think that is an example of where we need to change."
Despite the pressure from the left, Ms Gillard says the rules will not be changed and MPs have ample time to debate issues in caucus.


"I want our caucus to be a place of debate, but we come from a political party that believes we are strengthened by being members of a team and the way the team works is we have those discussions internally," she said.
Greens Senator Christine Milne says her party is picking up support from Labor because the ALP has moved to the right in recent years.


"It has tried to sit in the middle of the road and has got run over in a lot of those seats - that's the classic case because they are losing the progressive vote to the Greens," she said.


"Then they try to go back further to the centre to pick up the more conservative votes and the Coalition pulls them further to the right and so they lose more of those votes on the progressive side of politics."

This proves that there is tension and left wing pressure in the labor pary to realign themselves to perhaps support gay marriage - the party right now is no way progressive right now as the former union leader doung camerson says, confounding the working class who have historically voted for them. So now most of labors votes are going to the green which is unfortunate.

Living in melbourne this sucks.

perhaps if the green party made an alliance with a marxist /socialist organization ( The socialist Equality Party) .. im sure by then labor would definitely be intimidated

Part of SAlt's critiques deals with the influx of new members/voters (There is a significant distinction between these two, as SAlt was proud to illustrate). Quite a few are drawn from ex-labor social democrats.

Where you live in Australia at the moment has less of an impact than you make out.

chebol
9th November 2010, 01:27
Bilan wrote:
Unfortunately, they wont be putting the review online for free.
Not the ful review, but that article is online, here (http://www.marxistleftreview.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46:a-marxist-critique-of-the-australian-greens&catid=34:issue-1-spring-2010&Itemid=77):
A fair bit of discussion has already broken out due to this piece.
Nick Fredman, of Socialist Alliance, responds to Ben Hillier here (http://links.org.au/node/1938).
And Ben responds to Nick's critique here (http://links.org.au/node/1959).
The comments below the final piece are worth reading too.

chebol
9th November 2010, 01:39
Rousedruminations wrote:
perhaps if the green party made an alliance with a marxist /socialist organization ( The socialist Equality Party) .. im sure by then labor would definitely be intimidated Perhaps, but that's not going to happen - not east because the Socialist Equality Party (the exampe you cite) regards everyone else as either bourgeois, spies or traitors. Sectarianism incarnate. Also, the Greens are on a high at the moment, and see no reason to form alliances with anyone outside their ranks (except in some campaigns...)

There are some other interesting things going on though:
Socialist Party Yarra Councillor Steve Jolly's election campaign in Richmond, for example, which SAlt have finally seen fit to support (http://sa.org.au/australian-politics/2984-we-need-a-socialist-alternative-in-the-victorian-elections) (not least because he is likely to get over 10%, and hase received something like $20,000 donations from unions, - 15,000 from the CFMEU alone, plus the ETU and UFU)
(SAlt's jumped from critically supporting the ALP in elections, to criticaly supporting the Greens in elections, to supporting the Socialist Party, while criticising the Greens, often slightly irrationally: http://sa.org.au/australian-politics/2975-labor-attacks-hypocritical-but-greens-have-little-defence )

Of course SAlt continue to ignore the Socialist Alliance, its activists, and its election campaign, except when they want to spit sectarian chips.
Meanwhile:
http://www.socialist-alliance.org/victoria/ (http://www.socialist-alliance.org/victoria/)
Leading Gladstone ALP activist joins the Socialist Alliance http://www.socialist-alliance.org/page.php?page=1058

Also, anyone in Mebourne - or who can make it to Melbourne - in early December, should really, really get along to this:
New initiative: Union and community summer school
http://www.socialist-alliance.org/page.php?page=1054
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=106256982772805
Participants include
Adam Bandt (Greens MHR)
Sue Bolton (Victorian State Convener, Socialist Alliance)
Brian Boyd (Secretary, Victorian Trades Hall Council)
Kevin Bracken (Victorian Branch Secretary, MUA)
Ian Bray (Assistant National Secretary, MUA)
James Brennan (Workers Solidarity Network, Renegade Activists)
Sue Bull (OHS Trainer, CFMEU)
Verity Burgmann (Working Class Historian)
Chris Cain (Branch Secretary, WA MUA)
Len Cooper (National Vice‐President, CEPU)
Ben Courtice (Metal worker, Victorian Climate Emergency Network)
Joan Coxsedge (former Victorian MP)
Daryl Croke (Co‐founder, Union Solidarity)
Bill Davis (ex‐Victorian President, Plumbers Union)
Jamie Doughney (Former President NTEU, Victorian Division)
Joan Doyle (Victorian State Secretary, Communications Division, CEPU)
Richard Duffy (Organiser, Victorian ASU)
Rob Durbridge (AEU Industrial Officer, President, Search Foundation)
Colleen Gibbs (Environment Officer, Victorian AMWU)
Lita Gillies (Organiser, Victorian ASU, Spirit of Eureka)
Margaret Gleeson (Delegate of the year, Queensland ASU)
Tim Gooden (Secretary, Geelong Trades Hall Council)
Troy Gray (Victorian Assistant State Secretary, ETU)
Jacob Grech (Renegade Activists, co‐founder Union Solidarity)
Mel Gregson (Organiser, UNITE)
Bronwyn Halfpenny (former VTHC Campaigns Officer)
Leigh Hubbard (Senior Industrial Officer, ANF, former Secretary, VTHC)
Steve Jolly (Socialist Party Councilor, Yarra City Council)
Craig Johnston (Former Secretary, Victorian AMWU, CFMEU delegate)
Victor Jose (Organiser, Victorian AMWU)
Dave Kerin (Co‐founder Union Solidarity, Eureka’s Future)
Emma Kerin (Workers Solidarity Network)
T.M.B. Krishnan (Eureka’s Future)
Colin Long (Secretary, NTEU, Victorian Division)
Anthony Main (Secretary, UNITE)
Tony Mavromatis (Organiser, Victorian AMWU)
Humphrey McQueen (Working Class Historian)
Dean Mighell (Victorian State Secretary, ETU)
Joe Montero (Workers Solidarity Network)
Jack Mundey (Former Secretary, NSW BLF, Green Bans leader)
Dick Nichols (Former Trade Union coordinator, Socialist Alliance)
Susan Price (Vice‐President, NTEU, NSW Division)
Seb Prowse (International Bookshop Cooperative)
Shaun Reardon (Vice‐President, Victorian CFMEU)
Alejandro Rodriguez (Search Foundation board member)
Arthur Rorris (Secretary, South Coast Labour Council)
Peter Simpson (Queensland State Secretary, ETU)
Chris Spindler (Organiser, Victorian CEPU)
Rob Stary (Civil Rights Lawyer)
Davey Thomason (Former organiser, NSW BLF)
Liz Turner (Renegade Activists, Workers Solidarity Network)
Luke van der Muelen (Pres, Vic CFMEU Mining and Energy Division)
Sam Wainwright (Councilor, Fremantle Council, WA MUA Delegate)
Mark Wakeham (CEO, Environment Victoria)
Cam Walker (Campaigns Coordinator, Friends of the Earth)
Norm Wallace (Former Assistant Secretary, Victorian BLF)
Sam Watson (Queensland Aboriginal Community leader)
Shirley Winton (Spirit of Eureka)
Matthew Wright (Director, Beyond Zero Emissions)

chebol
9th November 2010, 01:49
Niccolò wrote:
The problem isn't what SAlt believe the Greens should be fighting for, but the desire for the greens to advance better tactics itself. I think is the heart of SAlts critique of the Greens, which, as it should be obvious is fatally flawed.

SAlt's faulty class analysis of the Greens, and/or their failure to draw the correct conclusions from it leads them to put false faith in the Greens. SAlt is thus faced with the perpectual failure of the Greens to be something that they are not.

Nic.

* Read: activist as opposed to parliamentary


QFT, with the quaification that SAlt do not put any kind of "false faith" in the Greens - rather, this is their way of trying to *differentiate* themselves from the Greens. They do it in such a muddled way, however, as to *create* a certain baseless expectation and faith in the Greens amongst their less hardened membership....