Hate Speech--When is it OK to Use? [Archive]

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Bud Struggle

22nd October 2010, 00:11

Revolution starts with U

22nd October 2010, 00:47

None of it is ok, imo. I'm not a honkey, or a whitey, or a euro-american. None of that. I'm a god damned human being for shit's sake.
I do not represent white people, and am, in fact, opposed to many of their interests.

Nolan

22nd October 2010, 00:51

Revolution starts with U

22nd October 2010, 00:56

They don't. And that was my point. I guess I worded that wrong in the end tho :blushing:
What I meant was I am in fact opposed to what many white people think their interests are (anti-immigration, anti-affirmative action, etc)

#FF0000

22nd October 2010, 01:17

Just noticing the discussion on the India thread I worker when it is OK for Leftists to use hate speech, or maybe when and how does speech turn into hate speech? Is it OK for a Black person to use the n word be not a white. How about a dark Indian?

A "Guido" seems to be OK to use at an Italian, or so says Gacky, but I would feel pretty uneasy calling a bunch of Mexicans "Panchos" or "Joses". Should that kind of language be used at all or should everyone merit some sort of basic respect and dignity for just being a human being.

Racial slurs, I think, are only really damaging if they have a history behind it or are associated with something. I mean people who aren't white can usually use the "n-word" and people might not usually think anything of it, but a white person really can't.

I think it makes sense to me. I mean, I'm Irish, and I generally wouldn't be offended if someone called me a "mick" or something. I'd probably be more amused than anything just because it's such an obscure slur where I'm from.

However if an English person used it against me, I might not be offended but I'd think twice about it.

gorillafuck

22nd October 2010, 01:26

#FF0000

22nd October 2010, 02:39

It's a slur for Italians. Some people don't consider it to be.

EDIT: fix'd.

Jazzhands

22nd October 2010, 03:45

It used to be a slur for Italians. Some people still consider it to be.

IT STILL IS.

no matter what context you put it in, Guido is a racial slur against Italian people. It's been co-opted by the spiky-haired orange douchebag movement in America in the same way as the N-word has been co-opted by some black rappers.

The thing that pisses me off about the Orange Power movement the most is that you don't even need to be Italian, and they probably have no idea what the word "Guido" means.

Among all the different white people in America, Italians and Irish are the most frequently stereotyped, demeaned, and oppressed. Since I happen to be both, this is a serious issue for me. The average American thinks of the following when he thinks of Italy:

Mario and Luigi

The Godfather

"them guys that sell them fancy square pizzas."

So you can see why this is a problem.

Summerspeaker

22nd October 2010, 04:14

In general I oppose such languages for the obvious reasons, but it's absurd for members of an oppressing class to complain about slurs against them used by the oppressed group.

Since when did races have interests

Race is political condition, so they absolutely have interests. Whiteness primarily functions as a club of privilege constructed in opposition to nonwhites (specifically blacks and Amerindians in the U.S. context).

Nolan

22nd October 2010, 05:22

Race is political condition, so they absolutely have interests. Whiteness primarily functions as a club of privilege constructed in opposition to nonwhites (specifically blacks and Amerindians in the U.S. context).

It only has "interests" in the context of a racist system, i.e. certain material conditions and political values handed down the social ladder by the ruling class. In other words races only have interests as far as we're socialized to believe so. This part should be made clear. Saying "races have interests" sounds like you've thrown all Marxist analysis out the window in favor of some supremacist bullshit.

ComradeMan

22nd October 2010, 09:39

In general I oppose such languages for the obvious reasons, but it's absurd for members of an oppressing class to complain about slurs against them used by the oppressed group.

Race is political condition, so they absolutely have interests. Whiteness primarily functions as a club of privilege constructed in opposition to nonwhites (specifically blacks and Amerindians in the U.S. context).

But the problem is where do you draw any kind of line? Like if someone is rich and bourgeois does that make it okay to use hate speech against them? Is it all right to use anti-semitic terms to a wealthy Jewish person? Is it all right to use hate terms for African-Americans to say Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice and Barack Obama because they are "ruling class"? Etc etc etc.

Also, you say oppressing class? Why would Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans etc etc be considered an oppressing class? Because they are white?

The word "guido" is double loaded- from my research it not only stereotypes and stigmatised people of an ethnic background but it also carries class connotations too- i.e. low class, "not as good as me", "what bad taste" and so on- this is bourgeois classism too. The word "wog" for a Mediterranean-Middle-Eastern person has highly racist connotations and cannot even be argued as a "joking" term. The other thing that worries me is that these hate-memes become linguistic currency and subliminally do a lot of damage. The stereotypical postings about "guidos" in the US have a very nasty similarity to the rantings of N.Italian racists about S.Italians when they use the word "terrone" (Irish slang- "muck savage") and even the imagery was the same. Yeah, we all have slicked back hair, leather jackets, ride around on scooters wearing sun-glasses and eating ice-creams whilst whistling at female passers by. We all eat pizza and spaghetti and are psychotically devoted to our domineering mothers etc etc :cool:.

The word "chav" from Britain is another example. The word is a Romanish word referring to a boy (chavo) but the people who use this word are not Romanish and Romani people do not use this word to each other. By using this word you are saying that low-class, negative-stereotypes are synonymous with Romanish boys and these words are always pejorative. See the problem?

As for the infamous n-word. Well I still don't understand why African-Americans use this word to each other but then within a group I suppose it is perhaps historically rooted and has some irony- but a lot of people in the world don't see it that why. African-Italians don't call each other "negro" and would be offended by the use of the word. The use of the word in the anglosphere is largely down to American usage and the influence of hip-hop and rap- but then rap music is fall of pejorative terms for homosexuals, women and so on and don't think it's necessarily all that good a "role model" at times. Somebody a good time ago here posted a cartoon strip about the use of the n-word, and a white boy complaining why he couldn't use it and it explained why... I can't remember the link but it was to the point.

This is also an international medium and so perhaps US members should be aware that what may be acceptable or part of the cultural norm in the US may not be so in other parts of the world and may cause offense and thus avoid loaded terms. It's happened to me- I used the word "oriental" in English once (not here) and someone pointed out that it was a loaded term- I was unaware of the fact that whereas "orientale" in Italian has no connotations other than literally "far eastern/eastern" in the English language it has come to be offensive- the response, easy, "Oh, I'm sorry- I didn't mean to cause offense."- simple as that.

The trouble with this whole hate-speech thing is it's either all or nothing and I would prefer nothing to be honest. It's also divisive and classist. Like Rev.StartsWithU points out- human beings are human beings and I applaud that sentiment.

PS What is Orange Power movement? It sounds like a campaign for citrus rights!!!!!!!! :)

synthesis

22nd October 2010, 10:00

The use of the word in the anglosphere is largely down to American usage and the influence of hip-hop and rap

I would say that's less than five percent true.

ComradeMan

22nd October 2010, 10:17

I would say that's less than five percent true.

I wouldn't- just in case there is a misunderstanding here- I don't mean the use of the n-word as a pejorative term, no, that's universal (sadly) I mean the use of the word as a non-pejorative term of endearment between black people- this I feel IS down to the influence of African-American culture and especially music. I never heard Carribean and African people use the word to each other and in Europe it seems to have come from the 1980's rap and hip-hop sub-culture.

Anyway- from the RevLeft FAQ

Discriminatory Language

As this is an internet message board, it is impossible for us to know the intent behind posts. Accordingly, we take all members' comments at their face value.

Because of this, any use of discrmiinatory or oppressive language is not permitted. This includes all obvious instances of derogatory slurs related to race, ethnicity, sex, orientation, or any other immutable characteristic, as well as any derogatory use of applicable descriptive terms like "****", "gay" or "Jew".

Any use of discriminatory language may result in administrative action, and continued use will almost certainly result in a ban.

...

In the daily happenings at the board, members sometimes make comments that are unacceptable at this site. Comments that are racist, sexist or homophobic for example. This usually will result in a restriction, and if the problem is deemed serious enough by the membership, a ban. No matter where you fall on the political spectrum, this is the case.

RGacky3

22nd October 2010, 20:11

A "Guido" seems to be OK to use at an Italian, or so says Gacky

I don't say anything, I'm from the west coast, but from my understanding its not generally used as a derogetory term for Italians, rather a style.

but I would feel pretty uneasy calling a bunch of Mexicans "Panchos" or "Joses". Should that kind of language be used at all or should everyone merit some sort of basic respect and dignity for just being a human being.

I think the context and attitude is way more important than the word itself, calling Mexicans Panchos is pretty much always racist, I don't know of Panchos being used as a term for a style, such as Cholo, or Pachucho.

hatzel

22nd October 2010, 20:24

ComradeMan

22nd October 2010, 20:32

...all this American slang is going right over my head...

To be honest, though, I think there's a strange futility about a lot of these words. I mean, when did the French decide 'manouche' wasn't an acceptable term? I don't think any Řoma would argue with you if you called them a manuš, so why does it become an issue if it's just transliterated into French? I guess I can say the same about 'yid'. Say that in Yiddish (or Yeshivish), and you're home free. But if you start saying that in English sentences, perhaps preceded by 'fuck off you'...how is the word itself in that case magically offensive? Because it's intended as an insult, I can't see any other reason...but then we can't simplify in the other direction, by saying that 'hate speech' is okay when it's not intended to be offensive. If I said 'I love niggers', I think people would be offended by the word choice, even if, with my love for them, I'm not intending to hate them. But I guess saying 'I love black people' would hardly be inoffensive either...

I see what you mean- the trouble with these terms is that they can only be used in very narrow circumstances in any way other than offensive.

Also RevLeft board policy is quite clear on the matter.

Besides board policy or personal feeling, WTF- this is supposed to be a Revolutionary Left website, if people want to use hate speech of any kind and demeaning terms etc they should go to S.Front.

I don't follow your last point though- But I guess saying 'I love black people' would hardly be inoffensive either.

Are you saying this because it's putting the "adjective" before the person?

gorillafuck

22nd October 2010, 21:28

no matter what context you put it in, Guido is a racial slur against Italian people. It's been co-opted by the spiky-haired orange douchebag movement in America in the same way as the N-word has been co-opted by some black rappers.
I had never heard the word "guido" before it started applying to people like the people on the Jersey Shore tv show. That's surprising.

Also, the term "nigger" wasn't just co-opted by black rappers.

Among all the different white people in America, Italians and Irish are the most frequently stereotyped, demeaned, and oppressed.How is there oppression of Irish people in the United States?

hatzel

22nd October 2010, 23:23

I don't follow your last point though- But I guess saying 'I love black people' would hardly be inoffensive either.

Are you saying this because it's putting the "adjective" before the person?

No, no, I just meant...well, that would be equating all black people into one particular set of characteristics that I love, based entirely on their racial classification, rather than accepting admitting there are will be people who are black who I might love and people who are black who I really might not. For various reasons. Really I was just getting carried away with being totally PC, and I'm assuming that most people who would say 'I love black people!' are probably trying too hard to defend themselves...:rolleyes:

timbaly

22nd October 2010, 23:38

I don't say anything, I'm from the west coast, but from my understanding its not generally used as a derogetory term for Italians, rather a style.

I would say "guinea" is used as a derogatory word against Italians far more than the word "guido". However that's not to say that "guido" isn't used in a dergatory way. It tends to be used as a way to insult a person's style more often than it's used to insult a person's ethnic background. The word "guinea" is always used to attack a person's ethic background. Sometimes people use WOP (without papers) to insult Italians, but this is much more rare and old fashioned. Occassionally you'll hear people use "goomba" in the same way they would use "guinea" but "goomba" is sometimes used in the same way "guido" tends to be used.

Summerspeaker

23rd October 2010, 04:50

It only has "interests" in the context of a racist system, i.e. certain material conditions and political values handed down the social ladder by the ruling class. In other words races only have interests as far as we're socialized to believe so. This part should be made clear. Saying "races have interests" sounds like you've thrown all Marxist analysis out the window in favor of some supremacist bullshit.

I think we're on the same page but I'd go further and say races only exist to the extent we're socialized to believe so.

But the problem is where do you draw any kind of line? Like if someone is rich and bourgeois does that make it okay to use hate speech against them? Is it all right to use anti-semitic terms to a wealthy Jewish person? Is it all right to use hate terms for African-Americans to say Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice and Barack Obama because they are "ruling class"? Etc etc etc.

I'd never condone reinforcing oppression. So no to racial slurs against black or Jewish bosses. Hate speech against the rich - if at all appropriate - should target their economic status. (Greedy parasite, bloodsucking oppressor, etc.)

Why would Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans etc etc be considered an oppressing class? Because they are white?Yes. Whiteness functions as club of privilege.

The word "guido" is double loaded- from my research it not only stereotypes and stigmatised people of an ethnic background but it also carries class connotations too- i.e. low class, "not as good as me", "what bad taste" and so on- this is bourgeois classism too. The word "wog" for a Mediterranean-Middle-Eastern person has highly racist connotations and cannot even be argued as a "joking" term.I'm not terribly familiar with either term, but both sound nasty to me. In relation those of North European descent, Italian immigrants in United States certainly existed as an oppressed group. Southern Europeans (and the Irish) weren't initially considered white. They had to prove it by assimilating and particularly by rejecting solidarity with blacks, Amerindians, and Asians.

All of this depends on context. To illustrate the position I took earlier, I would definitely shake my head if a white American cried racism after hearing a person of color say cracker, whitey, güero, gabacho, or some similar term. Same if a dude got angry about alleged man-hating from feminist women or if a straight person flipped out over hearing queer folks bashing heterosexuals. Oppression makes people mad. Complaining out they voice this rage misses the point and effectively supports the hierarchy in question.

Hiero

23rd October 2010, 05:43

This question should be. Why? Why would you need to /want to use that word. Where in your daily life do you find the gap that can be filled by the term "nigger" or "Guido" or whatever?

Lt. Ferret

23rd October 2010, 06:34

why use any words?

Hiero

23rd October 2010, 06:54

why use any words?

Is that a response to my comment?

#FF0000

23rd October 2010, 06:56

why use any words?

Depends. In general, to communicate. People use hate speech to demean and belittle in a p. huge way though so it might be a liiiiiiiiiittle than other language.

Lt. Ferret

23rd October 2010, 07:00

like "imperialist" and "reactionary" to people and subjects who have little to nothing to do with either?

#FF0000

23rd October 2010, 07:13

what are you even talking about

Lt. Ferret

23rd October 2010, 07:17

:rolleyes:

mikelepore

23rd October 2010, 07:24

Occassionally you'll hear people use "goomba" in the same way they would use "guinea" but "goomba" is sometimes used in the same way "guido" tends to be used.

Goomba is just Americans misspelling the Italian word cumbare, pronounced like goom ba ray, where the sound is often shortened to to goom ba. My grandfather who came from Benevento, Italy used to say it a lot. I didn't even know it was being used by some people as a slur. It means a friend, so it's like calling a Spanish person amigo.

Lt. Ferret

23rd October 2010, 07:29

goombas are the little brown mushroom bad guys in Super Mario World.

Revolution starts with U

23rd October 2010, 07:57

Imperialist and reactionary are not ethnic/cultural slurs. They are descriptions of intellectual/political positions.
What would you call someone who supports the rape and pillage of the world? War-monger? Murderer? Grand thief? Psychopath?
Be glad we just call them imperialist :laugh:

Revolution starts with U

23rd October 2010, 07:58

synthesis

23rd October 2010, 11:12

I wouldn't- just in case there is a misunderstanding here- I don't mean the use of the n-word as a pejorative term, no, that's universal (sadly) I mean the use of the word as a non-pejorative term of endearment between black people- this I feel IS down to the influence of African-American culture and especially music. I never heard Carribean and African people use the word to each other and in Europe it seems to have come from the 1980's rap and hip-hop sub-culture.

Yes, and what I am saying is: the argument that the use of the word as a "non-pejorative term of endearment between black people" is a result of "hip/hop rap music," that that argument is perhaps five percent true.

How many people do you think, historically, were addressed only by that word?

ComradeMan

23rd October 2010, 11:37

Yes, and what I am saying is: the argument that the use of the word as a "non-pejorative term of endearment between black people" is a result of "hip/hop rap music," that that argument is perhaps five percent true.

How many people do you think, historically, were addressed only by that word?

Perhaps you're right- but rap/hip-hop etc have certainly gone a long way in promoting the use of the word in this way along with specific fashions etc. Seeing as the rest of the world receives these media more than anything else from America, quickly and directly, it has contributed to the current situation.

I don't understand your second point.... please explain.....

synthesis

23rd October 2010, 11:47

Perhaps you're right- but rap/hip-hop etc have certainly gone a long way in promoting the use of the word in this way along with specific fashions etc. Seeing as the rest of the world receives these media more than anything else from America, quickly and directly, it has contributed to the current situation.

I don't understand your second point.... please explain.....

What I would argue is that "rap/hip-hop" had little to do with the word's use as "a non-pejorative term of endearment between black people," except to make that usage known to people who aren't black Americans.

ComradeMan

23rd October 2010, 11:56

What I would argue is that "rap/hip-hop" had little to do with the word's use as "a non-pejorative term of endearment between black people," except to make that usage known to people who aren't black Americans.

Well, that's what I was trying to say more or less- I wasn't apportioning blame or anything like that. Nevertheless the power of modern music and TV has a profound effect on the younger generation and I do feel that the n-word's nasty connotations of racial supremacy are being blurred by this.

timbaly

23rd October 2010, 16:31

Goomba is just Americans misspelling the Italian word cumbare, pronounced like goom ba ray, where the sound is often shortened to to goom ba. My grandfather who came from Benevento, Italy used to say it a lot. I didn't even know it was being used by some people as a slur. It means a friend, so it's like calling a Spanish person amigo.

Americans say "goomba" (even italian americans) because that's what it sounds like when Southern Itlaians say "cumbare", they often seem to drop that last syllable in many words. I'd say it's used as a slur much in the same way amigo is used as a slur. People say it to point out the ethnicity of a people and make fun of that ethnicity's "ways". Sometimes I hear things like "Yo amigo, where can I find X street and Y avenue?" It's not used in an overly racist way but its still used in a demeaning way.

timbaly

23rd October 2010, 16:34

Goombas are the workers of that bourgie swine Bowser. Down with the Koopa empire!

EDIT: Hmm, mario is a lowly plumber, wearing red, fighting some wealthy land owner and his exploitive minions...
I think I just found even more respect for Mario.

The goombas are named for the word cumpare. However Mario continually works to restore the monarchy. I wouldn't say there is much respect in that.

Revolution starts with U

23rd October 2010, 16:45

... good point. And the Peach family does live in luxury while its people toil in the fields...

ComradeMan

23rd October 2010, 17:05

"Goomba'" is Neapolitan equivalent of saying in Spanish "compadre"- (It. compare/Nap cumpare). I think the way this word is used is like the Neapolitan way. It's like British "mate" American "buddy" etc... "Ue! Cumpa''! "

vRrocPYaMBg

EDIT to point below- I did not know it was used that way in the US. Obviously in Naples it isn't. But then I wouldn't advise going to Naples and abusing Neapolitan people... it might be bad for your health!

timbaly

24th October 2010, 01:43

"Goomba'" is Neapolitan equivalent of saying in Spanish "compadre"- (It. compare/Nap cumpare). I think the way this word is used is like the Neapolitan way. It's like British "mate" American "buddy" etc... "Ue! Cumpa''! "

It's only used like the British "mate" when it's used in group. Many people who aren't Italian or Italian-American use it in a demeaning or belittling way to be ridiculing of Italian-Americans.

Jazzhands

24th October 2010, 04:16

Someone asked me about "how are Irish people oppressed?" I composed a long, meaningful, tear-jerking answer to this but then I accidentally hit the "back" button and lost everything. I even had pix.:( But the stereotypes. THE STEREOTYPES! This is the shit I deal with way too much when people figure out that I'm half-Irish.

"Hey, you're Irish? That's cool! I love Braveheart!!" (he was Scottish in both real life and the film, not Irish)

"What, no dresses?" (it's a KILT! and nobody fucking wears those because we aren't stuck in medieval times, asshole!)

"So how much booze can you hold?" (racist stereotype)

"Have you ever seen a leprechaun?" (again)

"If there's no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, do I get to beat you up for it?" (no, because fuck you)

"They're always after me Lucky Charms, amirite?" (NO, YOU ARE NOT RIGHT.)

Os Cangaceiros

24th October 2010, 05:02

I'm part Irish, too, but I've never copped shit over it.

Isn't Irish the most commonly cited white ethnicity in the US, after German?

Revolution starts with U

24th October 2010, 05:05

Funnily enough, us Irish weren't even white a century ago.
But, I've always wondered why the Notre Dame mascot doesn't draw as much ire as Captain Wahoo (Cleveland Indians).

MagÃ³n

24th October 2010, 05:31

I do have the tendency to punch an asshole if he calls me a Spick or Dago (even though Dago is mostly in this day and age used against Italians.) Call me a Wetback or something, then I don't care but will probably get in your face if you mean it insultingly. And if someone calls me a Beaner, I hardly care because as far as I know, that word is originally mean't as an insult from Hispanics to Whites, who try and act Hispanic. Such as a White guy dressing and acting in the mannerisms that Hispanics have. That would be a Beaner, but for some reason it got mixed around.

RGacky3

24th October 2010, 08:28

Irish are not an oppressed minority, having ethnic stereotpyes does'nt make you oppressed, if that was true then British people are extremely oppressed.

ComradeMan

24th October 2010, 10:52

I don't think that someone always has to be oppressed to be victim of racial/ethnic stereotyping and abuse- although the two are connected without doubt.

Jazzhands

24th October 2010, 22:34

Irish people in America are less oppressed than Italians as an ethnicity and it's less obvious. But we're right up there. Don't tell me you've ever heard the phrase "Drunken Irishmen" before? When have we ever been something in America's mind other than booze-chugging low-wage dumb steelworkers? The first thing Americans thinks of when they hear "Irish" is either drunken brawlers, a red-bearded fat man in a kilt with bagpipes and a mug of beer, or the Lucky Charms leprechaun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_racism Some of it's about the UK, some the US. But the US parts are disgusting.

The cartoon on that page is from Thomas Nast, the guy who designed the Democrat Donkey and the Republican Elephant, as well as Uncle Sam. That's right. Uncle Sam. It was really pervasive back then.

Here's an interesting thought experiment. Take any one of the stereotypical quotes I posted before. Re-apply it to another ethnicity or a non-white race, like Mad-Libs for assholes. See how much shit you get from people when you ask a Jewish guy "How much money can you carry?" You'd get a lot of shit, because it's offensive and racist. But when you ask an Irish guy the booze question, everyone laughs.

There is definitely anti-Irish ignorance in America. Maybe it's not out-and-out "kill the Irish" racism, but there's definitely a pervasive level of ignorance in America as to what is offensive. Irish people are not all alcoholics, for the same reason as Jews are not all bankers.

RGacky3

24th October 2010, 22:46

Irish people ARE NOT AN OPPRESSED MINORITY, the worst you have to deal with are quaint stereo types.

YOu wanna knwo why everyone laughs at the Irish thing and not the Jew thing? Because millions of Jews were murdered in Europe, nad were actually oppressed for centuries.

BRITISH people are nothing more than tea drinking stiff upper liped frail polo players, are they an oppressed minority now too?

People saying "oh the Irish are also oppressed" belittles people that ACTUALLY are ethnically oppressed, like people that can't get a job, or can't rent in certain areas, get pulled over and profiled, has that ever happened BECAUSE of being Irish? No, you gotta deal with cute stereotypes, like british people, Germans have to deal with Nazi jokes, are they an oppressed minority?

Quail

24th October 2010, 23:28

I don't think it's ever okay to use hate speech. One thing that I often point out to people is that it's not okay to use racial slurs casually (such as "I'm just going to get some food from the chinky"). I do hear it a lot, especially when I'm back in the town where I grew up.

Jazzhands

24th October 2010, 23:37

People saying "oh the Irish are also oppressed" belittles people that ACTUALLY are ethnically oppressed, like people that can't get a job, or can't rent in certain areas, get pulled over and profiled, has that ever happened BECAUSE of being Irish? No, you gotta deal with cute stereotypes, like british people, Germans have to deal with Nazi jokes, are they an oppressed minority?

I'm not saying that it's on the same level. In fact, I just said it wasn't.

Also, as the link I posted points out, all that stuff in bold actually has happened. This is a snippet from an old New York Times Classifieds section. Historians actually aren't sure as to whether or not there were signs on doors that said "No Irish Need Apply" on them as is popularly believed, but this newspaper is real.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/NINA-nyt.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/TheUsualIrishWayofDoingThings.jpg

This is called "The Typical Irish Way of Doing Things." Notice how he's about to blow up Uncle Sam's gunpowder. Guess what the message here is.

There was also the Know Nothing Movement, who ran on an anti-Irish platform because they thought they were hostile to their values. This obviously went well beyond stereotypes. Many Nativist meetings in places like Philadelphia were specifically focused on the Irish. And let's not forget the Philadelphia Nativist Riots. That's the most notorious instance of actual anti-Irish violence. So it's not just "quaint" stereotypes we were dealing with back then.

BTW, this is mostly what I was planning to post before.

Klaatu

25th October 2010, 00:38

Suppose your girlfriend is a bit overweight. Some stranger comes up and remarks what a fat-ass she is, and that "you could do better."

Your response?

Lt. Ferret

25th October 2010, 04:32

High five him.

RGacky3

25th October 2010, 08:50

Jazzhands, I mean in modern times, anyone living today has'nt been oppressed for being Irish.

ComradeMan

25th October 2010, 10:18

Jazzhands, I mean in modern times, anyone living today has'nt been oppressed for being Irish.

In America or elsewhere? But then in modern times I doubt whether anyone in the US has been oppressed for being Jewish, hated by anti-Semite bigots, but structurally oppressed- yet anti-Semitic rhetoric would still be considered offensive.

RGacky3

25th October 2010, 15:23

RGacky3

25th October 2010, 15:27

Honestly, if your Irish, in America, people think of you as white, thats what your considered and you reap the benefits of that, if your Irish and think your an oppressed minority, go tell it to a black guy, how you feel his pain because your Irish, seriously.

ComradeMan

25th October 2010, 15:35

In the US, Anti-Senetic is considered offensive because most Jews in America still have the holocaust sketched in their consiousness, and its still very sensative.

Irish people today don't have that, its been much longer and the persicution was much much lighter, and people, don't get offended.

A million Irish starved to death and another million forced to emigrate?
I am don't think we should get into the numbers game and what was "lighter" etc. Northern Irish people may also take a different view.

O-OnS3LPt0w

RGacky3

25th October 2010, 15:56

Thats because they were poor, there was a famine, not because they were Irish, that sort of stuff happened to Norwegians too, and Sweedish and Germans, but now, they are white.

#FF0000

25th October 2010, 17:02

Yeah no as an Irish person I don't think it's accurate at all to say there's discrimination against the Irish in America. We benefit from white privilege too.

ComradeMan

25th October 2010, 17:05

Yeah no as an Irish person I don't think it's accurate at all to say there's discrimination against the Irish in America. We benefit from white privilege too.

Active discrimination or rather the lack thereof does not stop people from being pricks though. If someone came out with a tirade against you using all the "traditional" words, "mick", "paddy" etc - it would still be racism/bigotry wouldn't it?

#FF0000

25th October 2010, 17:38

Active discrimination or rather the lack thereof does not stop people from being pricks though. If someone came out with a tirade against you using all the "traditional" words, "mick", "paddy" etc - it would still be racism/bigotry wouldn't it?

I actually mentioned this earlier and said it wouldn't bother me because there's nothing behind it besides some guy saying things.

If they did it in a british accent I might think twice.

Calling someone names isn't the most damaging part of racism anyway. I mean, there's no such thing as "driving while unusually pale"

timbaly

25th October 2010, 19:32

Thats because they were poor, there was a famine, not because they were Irish, that sort of stuff happened to Norwegians too, and Sweedish and Germans, but now, they are white.

The famine was somewhat artificial because of British colonial rules that took land from the Irish and granted it to wealthy land owners from Great Britain. They were poor and impoverished because the British discriminated against them.

timbaly

25th October 2010, 19:40

Yeah no as an Irish person I don't think it's accurate at all to say there's discrimination against the Irish in America. We benefit from white privilege too.

I would say you're absolutely right. However I justed wanted to point out that there are some isolated issues of prejudice against Irish people in New York City. In areas with many Irish immigrants (I believe about 7% of the city's ethnically Irish population were immigrants based on the 2000 census) prejudiced people often call them "donkeys" (mick tends to be used for Irish-Americans) and insult them for their accents and culture. I've actually seen two fights (in bars) break out between immigrants and their antagonizers for no good reason at all. Regardless it's a very isolated situation that will probably go away and has been dwindling since many Irish immigrants who came in the 80s have gone back to an Ireland in the EU.

ComradeMan

25th October 2010, 19:43

I actually mentioned this earlier and said it wouldn't bother me because there's nothing behind it besides some guy saying things.

If they did it in a british accent I might think twice.

Calling someone names isn't the most damaging part of racism anyway. I mean, there's no such thing as "driving while unusually pale"

It wouldn't bother you-be that as it may- but it would still be an expression of racial bigotry all the same wouldn't it?

empiredestoryer

30th October 2010, 02:26

yes as long as its the truth....:rolleyes: but most times it aint