Is class consciousness dying amongst the working class?

[ComradeMan]

Look what has happened in the real world to class consciousness in Britain. Is class consiousness "dying"?

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"It ain't really about class in this day and age-

"I'm just middle class, I ain't got loads of money, I'm not poor"

You're working class..

"But I don't work"

:laugh:

[Manic Impressive]

yep it's pretty sad, they've really hammered the issue of class in Britain with propaganda. To talk about class in main stream culture or in politics is seen as old fashioned and pointless. Which is really funny considering Britain was arguably traditionally the most class concious nation, by that I mean everyone was made to be well aware of their place in society. The only time class is mentioned is when they are talking about the so called "under class".

From what I see of American news and culture this seems to be in stark contrast with the middle class and working class mentioned quite a lot but usually tied in to race i.e. "the white middle class" "the black middle class" or even "W.A.S.P's"

[ComradeMan]

It seems that working class has been "stigmatised" as being syonymous with "low class" or "trash". But I love the comment, I ain't working class, I don't work!

[Red Poplar]

The problem is also, that people often deny or hide that they belong to the working class, out of shame or wanting to seem wealthier than they are. Damn, my country is in deep recession, yet we predict the highest number of people going on ski trips this winter. How do they pay it? - By credit! Not only that, more and more new cars are bought, and the credit interests eat up most of people's salaries, so they're left to feed themselves with bread and milk. Why do people do that, I think it brings the topic back to the obsession with consumerism, and/or snobbism (again my favourite topic :D ).

It's also predicted that such irrational behaviour could endanger the economy as a whole, because when those people run out of money to pay debts, all the unpaid-off money banks lent away could cause them to fall apart.

I consider myself a part of the working class (although I don't work, I'm a college student). My three-member family lives out of my old man's salary, and that amount of money, compared to Croatian standards of prices, places us in the lower-middle class.

[PoliticalNightmare]

Interesting. I remember seing this on Have I Got News For You quite a while back.

[UncleCyril]

These concepts of 'working class' and 'middle class' are an old-fashioned way of thinking about people's social situations and not very helpful in discussing politics especially with younger people who don't identify with one class or the other.

In Britain, traditionally 'working class' jobs e.g. manufacturing and mining have all but vanished due to the jobs being sent abroad. At the same time, skilled manual workers such as plumbers can earn more than people in 'middle class' type jobs, such as scientists.

The sharp division between "working class" and "middle class" just doesn't exist any more. The left needs to find common ground between these groups and concentrate its fire on the 'superclass' who suck up and hoard the wealth. That means escaping traditional far-left rhetoric and joining with people who at the moment you consider to be 'middle class' but are seeing their futures to be increasingly uncertain and the gap between themselves and the super-rich getting bigger all the time, and angered by bankers still receiving massive bonuses despite having to be bailed out using their tax money...

[Revolution starts with U]

Middle class is still working class, for the most part.
Is your only means of subsistence (barring gov't assitance) to rent your labor to a capitalist? Whether or not you work, if the above is true, you are working class.

[Conquer or Die]

Ironically, discussions of class are usually limited to schools.

[ComradeMan]

If you "sell" your work in return for capital then you are working class.

[Fabrizio]

Middle class is still working class, for the most part.
Is your only means of subsistence (barring gov't assitance) to rent your labor to a capitalist? Whether or not you work, if the above is true, you are working class.

So you can be "proletariat" even if you earn so much that you have a comfortable life and have no stake it risking it all for a revolution? Doesn't this kind of make Marx's characterization of the "proletariat" redundant then?

I think the Maoist-third Worldists have a more a view more in-keeping with Marx's own. Not that I agree with that view, but it seems more realistic to say a revolution will come only from those who genuinely "have nothing to lose but their chains".

[ComradeMan]

So you can be "proletariat" even if you earn so much that you have a comfortable life and have no stake it risking it all for a revolution? Doesn't this kind of make Marx's characterization of the "proletariat" redundant then?

I think the Maoist-third Worldists have a more a view more in-keeping with Marx's own. Not that I agree with that view, but it seems more realistic to say a revolution will come only from those who genuinely "have nothing to lose but their chains".

Middle-class is merely a creation of the ruling classes to dupe the proletariat into believing all the stuff about rising to the top and the natural order of things. The bourgeois are proletarian instruments of the ruling classes and like all instruments they are expendable- but many of them don't seem to realise it.:lol:

[Revolution starts with U]

So you can be "proletariat" even if you earn so much that you have a comfortable life and have no stake it risking it all for a revolution? Doesn't this kind of make Marx's characterization of the "proletariat" redundant then?

I think the Maoist-third Worldists have a more a view more in-keeping with Marx's own. Not that I agree with that view, but it seems more realistic to say a revolution will come only from those who genuinely "have nothing to lose but their chains".

That's just buying into capitalist seperation. There are only 2 real classes, and subdivisions within them. There are proles and bourgies. The people you are talking about, proles w a comfortable life and interests in keeping up the capitalists paradigm are petit bourgies.
It's proles v bourgs, or its all v all. And that <~~ is capitalism.

[ComradeMan]

That's just buying into capitalist seperation. There are only 2 real classes, and subdivisions within them. There are proles and bourgies. The people you are talking about, proles w a comfortable life and interests in keeping up the capitalists paradigm are petit bourgies.
It's proles v bourgs, or its all v all. And that <~~ is capitalism.

And those same petit bourgeoisie form a nice little buffer zone between the ruling class and the proletariat but are expendable. :che:

[The Hong Se Sun]

I just wanted to add a little something in here.

Yes it is true that anyone who sells their labor is a proletarian and thus working class but this needs a deeper analysis than just "everyone is working class who works and sells their labor."

Something that has not yet been mentioned is that realistically what matters is what the proletarians of said nation believe (Ill use the USA as an example). And the fact is that if the proletarian of a said nation believe there is more than one class then you must treat the situation as though there are multiple classes. One thing I would like to say is that in the US "the working class" is actually more referred to as the middle class. And we simply call the poor class the poor or some times "the working class poor" but I can tell you from person experiences that the poor do not see themselves in the same class as the petite bourgeoisie or the "middle class" (though obviously as a Marxist I know that the middle class is a lie). But remember that Marx was also about reality in a situation and if the proletarians of a nation are already dividing their classes then we as communist have to accept that and work around it or try to educate it out of the masses (not going to be easy here in the states).

Either way I would say class consciousness is very very low and still going away, this is a good discussion though I'm glad to see it on here.

[Revolution starts with U]

In the states, because of the massive amounts of hegemony and indoctrination one recieves from birth, I prefer to just say "fuck the system!" "Fuck the bourgie's" just doesn't win you any converts.
But I still, when it is prudent, try to remind people just what class means.

[RGacky3]

These concepts of 'working class' and 'middle class' are an old-fashioned way of thinking about people's social situations and not very helpful in discussing politics especially with younger people who don't identify with one class or the other.


I think the concepts of working class and middle class are not helpful, mainly because they are mostly one in the same when discussed.

However the Rich and the ruling class, THATS extremely relevent nad becoming more nad more so.

It does'nt matter really if you consider yourself working class or middle class, what matters is knowing who's in control.

Its like feudal times, you can be a peasant or a freed peasant, or a small time craftsman, but it does'nt matter, the nobility and kingship, thats what matters.


Look what has happened in the real world to class consciousness in Britain. Is class consiousness "dying"?


Wait till these girls get into the "real world" they might be singing a different song.


In the states, because of the massive amounts of hegemony and indoctrination one recieves from birth, I prefer to just say "fuck the system!" "Fuck the bourgie's" just doesn't win you any converts.
But I still, when it is prudent, try to remind people just what class means.

Class consiousness in the US, in the sense of understanding who are the ruling class and how much control they really have, is on the shart rise.

[PoliticalNightmare]

Gypsies and travellers are hardly 'chavs'. A lot of them are very nice, down-to-earth people.

'Chavs' are people who drink on street corners, cause violence, swear and spit everywhere, keep local residents up all night, absolutely refuse to work, steal people's possessions, etc. and at the same time live up to the materialistic qualities of the American dream - desiring to have a plasma TV that doesn't fit in your front room, wanting to have a disgustingly flash sports car, etc., etc. Perhaps one could fit the word 'chav' into Marx's wider definition of the lumpenproletariat.

I'd just like to add that 'chavs' are quite possibly amongst the most badly affected of capitalism - those that have been reduced to alcohol and poor behaviour as a result of low standards of education/no education. Those that have been reduced by capitalism to having low standards of self-esteem and have become a victim to the obscene levels of advertising nowadays designed to sell capitalist junk - 'Buy some Coca-Cola' / 'Inject your arteries with fat from this great big, lovely, juicy (cheap, crappy) McDonalds burger that has been made from the mince meat of a thousand cows ... mmm, lovely', etc.

I think that nowadays, commies need to appeal to members of the lower middle class who are essentially just an extension of the working class and made to feel posh, educated and alienated from the rest of the workers but yet have little guarantee that capitalism is to provide a safe and stable future for them. Perhaps, then, it is for this reason that using the word 'working class' has little relevancy in modern day society and class analysis ought to be treated with caution. I think the real divisions are those who get screwed over by the system, those who manage to scrape by and live a relatively comfy life-style and the minority who suck up everything they can by the system and those somewhere inbetween the three main categories. The class system often has cultural relations to it and is not always relevant to the categories I've just described.