"The Fallacy of "Child-Labor-Free" - Walter Block

[Salyut]

For those of us with artistic sensibility, the sight and feel of an original, hand-woven oriental rug is a unique experience. These artifacts are timeless in their design and quality, and their look improves with age and wear. My wife and I have a special love for the rugs of northern Morocco, called "kilims," which feature elegant and discreet geometrical designs, unlike their more extravagant Persian counterparts.

In a recent shopping adventure, in search for an addition to our kilim collection, I saw one of those quality-control seals, a "child-labor-free" certification. I must confess that I had the same type of feeling I get when a waiter assures my friends that their dish will have no MSG. But putting aside a discussion on whether the carpet dealer knows how to order some labels at Staples, we do need to address the well-meaning but erroneous tendency to boycott or ban the products of child labor.




I just don't understand these guys. (http://mises.org/daily/4761)
edit: Oh shit its not walter block ffffffffffff I'm under the influence atm can a mod fix ;_;

[Bright Banana Beard]

The Children should be in school, not work.

[ComradeMan]

The Children should be in school, not work.

But child-labour in many areas is the only means a family has of having any income at all.

It's a problem- I disagree with child-labour but just look what a vicious circle it has created too.

Check this site out too...

http://www.markenfirmen.com/

Das neue Schwarzbuch Markenfirmen: Die Machenschaften der Weltkonzerne
Publisher: Ullstein Taschenbuchvlg. (Mar 2010)
ISBN-10: 3548373143
ISBN-13: 978-3548373140

I have the Italian version of this book which is not listed on the site. Strangely, it has not been translated into English yet.

The book names and shames a lot of big names with accusations that, according to the authors, have not been rebuffed.

[Dean]

Industrial child labor is the result of exploitation. The article childishly references "placing children in front of a loom" as if atomized commodity production were the norm for child labor. Its not.

[Havet]

The Children should be in school, not work.

Forcing children to be in school is not very smart.

The whole point of school is to raise critical and independent thought, to teach and to learn, but only to those who are interested. This is why you can't force people to think or to create. Only to memorize and regurgitate.

However, there's a great deal of children who currently dont have the means to attend education. Those should be aided.

And there are those who actually prefer to do something else rather than staying in class.

Once you deem school as mandatory you necessarily abandon all hopes of democratizing it.

[Dean]

Forcing children to be in school is not very smart.

The whole point of school is to raise critical and independent thought, to teach and to learn, but only to those who are interested. This is why you can't force people to think or to create. Only to memorize and regurgitate.

However, there's a great deal of children who currently dont have the means to attend education. Those should be aided.

And there are those who actually prefer to do something else rather than staying in class.

Once you deem school as mandatory you necessarily abandon all hopes of democratizing it.

I don't think its fair to assume that Gran Rojo was promoting mandatory school attendance. But I don't see any evidence that mandatory school can't be decentralized in its application of education. I had teachers that were good at engaging and 'equalizing' the relations in class, and attending school was required.

[Havet]

I don't think its fair to assume that Gran Rojo was promoting mandatory school attendance. But I don't see any evidence that mandatory school can't be decentralized in its application of education. I had teachers that were good at engaging and 'equalizing' the relations in class, and attending school was required.

There will always be good and bad teachers, but mandatory attendance is far from an optimal arrangement. Check out some of these (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1899343&postcount=479) recent (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1899355&postcount=480) Reactionary Chatter posts (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1899359&postcount=481).

[Bright Banana Beard]

In order to forward the technological advancement, students need to learn how the machine works as the capitalists shouldn't keep it secret. Student will also learn what they like to learn and not from the capitalists. Having a labor will prevent him from learning properly, as education takes time to learn a lot. Farm and a small factory will be provide next to school for them to learn. There is evidence that you will learn stupidly as you grow old.

And yes, I do want to promote mandatory school attendance until the age of 14.

[Bright Banana Beard]

There will always be good and bad teachers, but mandatory attendance is far from an optimal arrangement. Check out some of these (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1899343&postcount=479) recent (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1899355&postcount=480) Reactionary Chatter posts (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1899359&postcount=481).

However, if they don't think critically, how is democratic structure possible?

[ComradeMan]

In order to forward the technological advancement, students need to learn how the machine works as the capitalists shouldn't keep it secret. Student will also learn what they like to learn and not from the capitalists. Having a labor will prevent him from learning properly, as education takes time to learn a lot. Farm and a small factory will be provide next to school for them to learn. There is evidence that you will learn stupidly as you grow old.

And yes, I do want to promote mandatory school attendance until the age of 14.

All work and no play... education is not just about training for work..

[Bright Banana Beard]

All work and no play... education is not just about training for work..


It's also for learning about society and arts, they are crucial things to provide creative thinking.

[Revolution starts with U]

I have to agree. Mandatory education is self-defeating. The people that don't want to be there will even further their disdain for all education. It gets to the point where people (here in the US) will actually say "I don't want to learn anything." ICP has a song saying "I don't wana talk to no scientist, yall mu'fuckers lyin, and gettin me pissed" for fuck's sake.
BUt anybody who wants to learn something should be given the tools to do so. Sure, mostly for utilitarian reasons. But even if they want education for educations sake, they should be facilitated.
It is morally wrong, and inherently oppressive to withold education from those seeking it.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I do think there are three skills that children should learn from as early an age as practical - namely reading, writing and critical thinking.

[Havet]

However, if they don't think critically, how is democratic structure possible?

I'm not really sure what you mean by this question.

If people don't criticize, oppresive regimes will be tolerated. If they criticize, they will demand better regimes. Are you somehow implying that people are too stupid to demand a democratic structure without being forced to by mandatory attendance? If that were the case, then it would be anti-democratic to supply them with a democratic structure, wouldnt it?

Then again i may be misunderstanding your position.

[Bright Banana Beard]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this question.

If people don't criticize, oppresive regimes will be tolerated. If they criticize, they will demand better regimes. Are you somehow implying that people are too stupid to demand a democratic structure without being forced to by mandatory attendance? If that were the case, then it would be anti-democratic to supply them with a democratic structure, wouldnt it?

Then again i may be misunderstanding your position.

They learn critically by learning in school and comparing all stuff, but in life you just goes by. So yes, even though I hate school, it will helps you in life such as writing, reading, solving math problems, etc.

When people do not learn these critical thinking, this will provide oppressive regime, where few will know this and learn to manipulate the people and the law with it.

This is why mandatory is important in early life.

[Havet]

it will helps you in life such as writing, reading, solving math problems, etc.

There are many tools that are way more interactive and interesting, not to mention complete, of learning without listening to a teacher in a classroom


When people do not learn these critical thinking, this will provide oppressive regime,

Just because lack of critical thinking leads to tyrannical regimes doesn't mean mandatory school is the best option.

[Bright Banana Beard]

There are many tools that are way more interactive and interesting, not to mention complete, of learning without listening to a teacher in a classroom For me, I think bunch of teachers is necessary, so students can learn about socializing with others, which is crucial in my opinion. The education today is shitty, but at least the technology is helping teachers to help student.




Just because lack of critical thinking leads to tyrannical regimes doesn't mean mandatory school is the best option. I don't think kids should go to work when they are in their best state to learn. I don't see how mandatory (Up to Age 14) leads to tyrannical regimes.

[Ele'ill]

There wouldn't need to be mandatory school if the atmosphere was positively engaging- devoid of horrific harassment by peers- filled with teachers that want to be there- has homework that's appropriate and works with the individual student rather than letting a bottom percentage of students fail because they don't have the inherent talents that some of the other students do- so on and so forth.

This isn't just a 'child labor' issue though- right now I can't go to school because I have to work- businesses don't allow a set schedule- so hours are extremely fucked up to put it lightly. I would do anything to go to school- but I can't.

Systems of exploitation are allowing the privileged to remain so- while those that have always had to work will continue to have to work as will their children.

[Dimentio]

Forcing children to be in school is not very smart.

The whole point of school is to raise critical and independent thought, to teach and to learn, but only to those who are interested. This is why you can't force people to think or to create. Only to memorize and regurgitate.

However, there's a great deal of children who currently dont have the means to attend education. Those should be aided.

And there are those who actually prefer to do something else rather than staying in class.

Once you deem school as mandatory you necessarily abandon all hopes of democratizing it.

And how is participation in society aided by lack of education?

Either, a lot of people would be simply disenfranchised and completely alienated from a very complicated society, or we would have participation where mobs could be swayed into supporting whatever things there are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

[ComradeMan]

A revolutionary worker's state would need all of its people to be educated and disciplined and therefore to spurn education is counter-revolutionary.

School needs to be mandatory- let's face it when we were kids did we always want to go to school? Did we give a shit about a lot of the stuff that now, when we look back, may have turned out to be useful. I agree there is a lot wrong with the current education systems but I don't think being all hip and far-out about education helps either.

[Ele'ill]

A revolutionary worker's state would need all of its people to be educated and disciplined and therefore to spurn education is counter-revolutionary.

School needs to be mandatory- let's face it when we were kids did we always want to go to school? Did we give a shit about a lot of the stuff that now, when we look back, may have turned out to be useful. I agree there is a lot wrong with the current education systems but I don't think being all hip and far-out about education helps either.


What is 'hip and far-out' - what don't you like about alternative education systems?


I didn't like school because of my peers- ineffective teachers- the same repetitive projects on slightly different topics-

I love reading but I think a lot of kids are forced to read at a very young age and it turns them away from it- which could be the same as kids that hate math that grow up to be adults that are rather inept at it (as I am) because it was forced and the curriculum was shitty (and still is).

Taking say Algebra in a class where most of the students could probably handle trig sort of puts one at a disadvantage.

[Dimentio]

A revolutionary worker's state would need all of its people to be educated and disciplined and therefore to spurn education is counter-revolutionary.

School needs to be mandatory- let's face it when we were kids did we always want to go to school? Did we give a shit about a lot of the stuff that now, when we look back, may have turned out to be useful. I agree there is a lot wrong with the current education systems but I don't think being all hip and far-out about education helps either.

Troll on!

[Havet]

For me, I think bunch of teachers is necessary, so students can learn about socializing with others, which is crucial in my opinion. The education today is shitty, but at least the technology is helping teachers to help student.

What technology? Which teachers? Which students?


I don't think kids should go to work when they are in their best state to learn. I don't see how mandatory (Up to Age 14) leads to tyrannical regimes.

The fact of the matter is that right now most schools kill creativity

iG9CE55wbtY

[ComradeMan]

Troll on!

Not at all....

In the Soviet Union a kind of touchy-feely education policy was adopted in 1923 with the tradtional subjects abolished- it was a complete and utter disastrous failure and the system was scrapped in 1928 returning to the older model with the traditional subjects restored. I'm all for a radical shake up in education but not school as a non-mandatory social club- it just wouldn't work.

If you take the Cuban model, which has produced impressive results inspite of the economic difficulties of Cuba:

School is compulsory from 6-15/16 and seems fairly rigid, yet UNESCO highlighted the fact that third and fourth graders in Cuba held the highest level of achievement in maths and languages compared to other Latin American countries.
http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/cubasi_article.asp?ArticleID=2

[Dean]

There will always be good and bad teachers, but mandatory attendance is far from an optimal arrangement. Check out some of these (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1899343&postcount=479) recent (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1899355&postcount=480) Reactionary Chatter posts (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1899359&postcount=481).
I agree that its far from an optimal arrangement. But that doesn't mean that mandatory school itself is at fault - in any way - for the hierarchical structure of school. These are two very different issues. And these two issues only intersect insofar as rearranging the structure of school deals with changing its mandatory character. The closest link you can draw besides that is that a mandate is a hierarchical concept - but that says absolutely nothing about the character of school once we go beyond that point.

The video was pretty good, btw. Thanks, BestMod.