Do most people on revleft actually support Zionism?

[Rafiq]

Do you support Zionism?

[Obs]

Does anyone know if Revleft has a policy of restricting anti-Germans?

[Ocean Seal]

Does anyone know if Revleft has a policy of restricting anti-Germans?
Trust me they wouldn't last long before they said something against our policy even if we didn't immediately restrict them.

[LeninBalls]

Does anyone know if Revleft has a policy of restricting anti-Germans?

Well, they can't really restrict the admin of the site.

[Rafiq]

Well, they can't really restrict the admin of the site.

The owner of Revleft is an Anti-German?

[timbaly]

The owner of Revleft is an Anti-German?

He's a bonafide Dusseldorfian.

[Widerstand]

Does anyone know if Revleft has a policy of restricting anti-Germans?

How have I ever wronged you?

[Widerstand]

On topic:

Could you clarify what you mean by Zionism?

[Nuvem]

Could you clarify what you mean by Zionism? A particular sect of Judaism which upholds that Jews are "the chosen people" and that they should have their own sovereign state governed by the mandates of Jewish holy scripture. Basically, Jewish supremacy and theocracy.

For the record, this is the short-short version.

[Rafiq]

On topic:

Could you clarify what you mean by Zionism?

In any way shape or form, supporting the State of Israel, and

Supporting the Nationalism of Israel, Jewish Ethnic Nationalism,

Supporting the Israeli Flag.

[ryacku]

Zionism is supporting the Israeli flag? Isn't that Israeli patriotism as opposed to Zionism? I thought Zionism is supporting the creation of a jewish homeland.

[Rafiq]

A particular sect of Judaism



You're right about everything except it being a sect of Judaism.

Zionism is completely political, and it is a branch of Fascism.

The founder of Zionism was a Third Positionist.

It simply believes in the Superiority of Jews Ethnically.

And believes in the Nationalism of a Jewish Homeland.

[Nuvem]

Aye, thank you for that correction.

[Nuvem]

Wait, who the hell voted for the first option?

[Widerstand]

A particular sect of Judaism which upholds that Jews are "the chosen people"

Supremacist believes of any sort are bullshit.


and that they should have their own sovereign state

See below.



governed by the mandates of Jewish holy scripture. Basically, Jewish supremacy and theocracy.

Religion is bullshit.


In any way shape or form, supporting the State of Israel

I'm pro-Zionist by that definition. I think Israel has the exact same 'right to exist' as any other nation state: Ultimately none, but under current conditions its existence is as justified as any other current nation state's.

[Rafiq]

I'm pro-Zionist by that definition. I think Israel has the exact same 'right to exist' as any other nation state: Ultimately none, but under current conditions its existence is as justified as any other current nation state's.


That's the biggest BullSh** I've heard all day.

So according to that justification,

You would support Nazi Germany because it has the right to exist as any other nation or state?

Israel is a Mass Murdering Colony, and a Fascist on top.

So if we restrict Pro-Nazis,

We should restrict Pro-Zionists.

[Rafiq]

Aye, thank you for that correction.

No problem

[Rafiq]

Wait, who the hell voted for the first option?

I was thinking the same thing.

[Nuvem]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TmED4DTHvIY/TGHMENh18CI/AAAAAAAARFo/AwAxqgMz8go/s1600/images_News_2010_08_10_iof-body_300_0.jpg

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/images/SlowMoGenocide.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44251000/jpg/_44251763_416narelbared_ap.jpg

I'm pro-Zionist by that definition. I think Israel has the exact same 'right to exist' as any other nation state: Ultimately none, but under current conditions its existence is as justified as any other current nation state's.


No, you're right, this is totally fine. I'm sure every state wages genocidal war like this on a daily basis.

[Widerstand]

That's the biggest BullSh** I've heard all day.

So according to that justification,

You would support Nazi Germany because it has the right to exist as any other nation or state?

Israel is a Mass Murdering Colony, and a Fascist on top.

So if we restrict Pro-Nazis,

We should restrict Pro-Zionists.

I don't see why Israel can be singled out as a state to be opposed specifically, given that there are lots of states that are the same in one aspect or the other, if not worse.

[Nuvem]

Most states aren't actively carrying out genocide as we speak. Some such as the USA continue their cultural genocide against the Native Americans, but there are only a handful of states carrying on a military campaign of concentration and elimination of an ethnic group.

[Rafiq]

http://nawaat.org/portail/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/israel_t-shirt.jpg

http://citizenx.org/wp-content/mage001.jpg

http://www.zionism-israel.com/vic/wounded.jpg


I'm pro-Zionist

-UN

[Widerstand]

No, you're right, this is totally fine. I'm sure every state wages genocidal war like this on a daily basis.

Every state with troops in the ISAF does.

A lot of states are extremely oppressive towards their own populace. Do you really need proof of this? If yes I suggest you check some Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, or pretty much any bullshit humanitarian organization you damn well please to read from.

[Rafiq]

I don't see why Israel can be singled out as a state to be opposed specifically, given that there are literally hundreds of states that are the same in one aspect or the other, if not worse.

Then we should equally not support those kinds of states.

But now, Israel is the most Fascist colony to exist.

They are a twin of the Aryan Nationalists,

Their Ideology revolves around ethnic supremacy,

And the mass murder on a daily basis.

[Widerstand]

-UN

"I'm supporting one reactionary regime because the other is jewish"

- Shariati

[Rafiq]

Every state with troops in the ISAF does.

A lot of states are extremely oppressive towards their own populace. Do you really need proof of this? If yes I suggest you check some Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, or pretty much any bullshit humanitarian organization you damn well please to read from.

Yeah I'll totally check up on those Bourgeois Liberal Bullcrap organizations.

If the Revolution happens somewhere, the human rights watch will consider it the worst in the world.

So, because other nations kill people, that is justification to support Israel?

Israel has done far worse then any other colony.

But the United States is the biggest murderer. At least their government isn't based on Ethnic Supremacy, though. However their culture is, and they are among the biggest murderers of the world. The US has killed more people then anyone. Period.

And yet Anti-Germans support them.

[mikelepore]

Aye, thank you for that correction.

You shouldn't be thankful for that. You were right the first time, and the other writer's "correction" of you was incorrect.

Not all support for Israel is Zionism. Zionism is a particular kind of support for Israel that is based on the belief that God promised the "chosen people" a particular piece of land. People who support Israel based on various other reasons, for example, the often-heard claim that Israel is a glimmer of democracy in a part of the world dominated by undemocratic states, are not properly called Zionists, however misinformed they may be.

[Rafiq]

"I'm supporting one reactionary regime because the other is jewish"

- Shariati

You are so F***ed up.

I don't support any Reactionary regimes,

And I'm not against Israeli Regime or Zionism because they are "Jewish".

You prick, whenever someone criticizes Israel's regime, they are labeled anti Jewish.

Just like when people criticized the Regime of Hitler, he labeled them Enemy's of the glorious Aryan Race.

You Fascist prick, you make me sick.


Did we oppose Fascist Italy because they were Italians? Answer the Fucking question, and stop avoiding mine.

[Rafiq]

Not all support for Israel is Zionism. Zionism is a particular kind of support for Israel that is based on the belief that God promised the "chosen people" a particular piece of land. People who support Israel based on various other reasons, for example, the often-heard claim that Israel is a glimmer of democracy in a part of the world dominated by undemocratic states, are not properly called Zionists, however misinformed they may be.

Yeah, but that's sympathetic toward Zionism. Israel's 'Democracy' is Zionist.

However that is correct, in a way, but it is still sympathy toward Zionism.

[Rafiq]

" I hate Germany, because their previous government was Fascist, they murdered millions of people, they were Racists, they invaded several Countries, they killed and fought against Communists, but I like America and Israel, because they totally never did any of that"

-UN

[Widerstand]

Then we should equally not support those kinds of states.

I don't. But so far none of you has given me any actual reasons why Israel should be singled out. All you do is make stupid comparisons.



But now, Israel is the most Fascist colony to exist.

You might want to educate yourself about Fascism. As far as I'm aware, the political system of Israel and of



They are a twin of the Aryan Nationalists,

Rofl.



Their Ideology revolves around ethnic supremacy,

Israelis are not a homogeneous group. There certainly are some factions that have played a big role in the creation of Israel and even in it's current politics and actions that are ethnic supremacists.

I'm neither supporting Israel's action against the Palestinian populace, it's warmongering, oppression nor apartheid society. In fact I have said so countless times before.

Zionism however, is a very vague term, and that's exactly what I've been trying to tell you. Also, judging from your responses, you are probably the kind of people who think harassing Jews in your country fights "Zionism."

[Imposter Marxist]

"I'm supporting one reactionary regime because the other is jewish"

- Shariati

Thats dishonest bullshit, and you know it Comrade.

[Widerstand]

Yeah I'll totally check up on those Bourgeois Liberal Bullcrap organizations.

If the Revolution happens somewhere, the human rights watch will consider it the worst in the world.


Are you saying that no state except Israel is committing injustices against people living on its soil? If not I don't get why you even argue.



So, because other nations kill people, that is justification to support Israel?

So because Israel, just like everyone kills and oppresses people, this is a reason to single out Israel and support everyone opposing it?



Israel has done far worse then any other colony.

But you said the US have killed more than anyone?



But the United States is the biggest murderer. At least their government isn't based on Ethnic Supremacy, though. However their culture is, and they are among the biggest murderers of the world. The US has killed more people then anyone. Period.

And yet Anti-Germans support them.

Your understanding of Anti-Germans is incomplete.


You shouldn't be thankful for that. You were right the first time, and the other writer's "correction" of you was incorrect.

Not all support for Israel is Zionism. Zionism is a particular kind of support for Israel that is based on the belief that God promised the "chosen people" a particular piece of land. People who support Israel based on various other reasons, for example, the often-heard claim that Israel is a glimmer of democracy in a part of the world dominated by undemocratic states, are not properly called Zionists, however misinformed they may be.

Oh my, a reasonable post in this thread? Wow.


You are so F***ed up.

I don't support any Reactionary regimes,

And I'm not against Israeli Regime or Zionism because they are "Jewish".

You prick, whenever someone criticizes Israel's regime, they are labeled anti Jewish.

Just like when people criticized the Regime of Hitler, he labeled them Enemy's of the glorious Aryan Race.

You Fascist prick, you make me sick.

So, why does Israel deserve to be singled out again? Can you give me any fucking reason that doesn't come down to: BECAUSE THEY ARE THE MOST EVIL OF ALL?


Did we oppose Fascist Italy because they were Italians? Answer the Fucking question, and stop avoiding mine.

I don't know if or why you have opposed Fascist Italy. I personally haven't opposed it because I wasn't born back then, but I oppose Fascism in general.


" I hate Germany, because their previous government was Fascist, they murdered millions of people, they were Racists, they invaded several Countries, they killed and fought against Communists, but I like America and Israel, because they totally never did any of that"

-UN

I don't hate Germany because our previous regime was fascist.
I don't like America.
I don't like Israel.

Come again?

[Widerstand]

Thats dishonest bullshit, and you know it Comrade.

I have seen no single reason so far why Israel should be singled out, except unsubstantial polemics aka "THEY ARE WORST."

I'd like to know how "badness" is measured, if not in body count, which is clearly something they aren't leading in.

[Rafiq]

Also, judging from your responses, you are probably the kind of people who think harassing Jews in your country fights "Zionism."

Now what exactly makes you think that?

I have never harassed a Jew. In fact, I have encountered more Zionist Right Wing White people then Zionist Jews, from where I live.

[Widerstand]

Now what exactly makes you think that?

I have never harassed a Jew. In fact, I have encountered more Zionist Right Wing White people then Zionist Jews, from where I live.

You argue like you would. I'd just like to remind you, that these kind of tactics are exactly what sparkled pro-Israel attitudes in the Anti-German movement in the first place.

[Rafiq]

Are you saying that no state except Israel is committing injustices against people living on its soil? If not I don't get why you even argue.



So because Israel, just like everyone kills and oppresses people, this is a reason to single out Israel and support everyone opposing it?



But you said the US have killed more than anyone?



Your understanding of Anti-Germans is incomplete.



Oh my, a reasonable post in this thread? Wow.



So, why does Israel deserve to be singled out again? Can you give me any fucking reason that doesn't come down to: BECAUSE THEY ARE THE MOST EVIL OF ALL?



I don't know if or why you have opposed Fascist Italy. I personally haven't opposed it because I wasn't born back then, but I oppose Fascism in general.



I don't hate Germany because our previous regime was fascist.
I don't like America.
I don't like Israel.

Come again?


I'll do this in order.

1. No, Israel isn't the only Colony that commits Injustice towards it's people, definitely not, but it is the closest Colony to America and America puts most time toward that particular Colony.

And it is the most Fascist out of the Colonys.

2. Israel is singled out because it's own Fascist Ideal which is Zionism, exists on this forum. Particularly among Anti-Germans.

3. Except the US isn't a Colony. I said Israel is the most mass Murdering Colony. America isn't a colony it's a superpower.

4. My understanding of the Anti-Germans is their name. They are Anti-German(discriminative). Maybe a name change would be nice if you argue otherwise.

5. Skip, not related to me.

6. They are singled out because guess what? They are the most vicious Colony, they are in the Middle East, the worlds Largest center of attention for the US, and they are supported by Members on Revleft.

7. I would have opposed Fascist Italy, because they were Fascist. Of course a Zionist wouldn't understand that.

8. So why do you hate Germany? And German Workers?

And... If you don't like Israel, maybe you shouldn't call yourself pro-Zionist.

Even if you don't like America, your antigerman friends carry the American Flag on almost all of their demonstrations.

You don't represent Anti-Germans to a huge extent. Their actions do.

[Comrade B]

I am anti-Israel, but I can understand why the Jewish people would want a homeland, especially after the holocaust. However, a homeland cannot be made out of the homes of other people.

Fascist though? There are definitely fascist elements in the Israeli government, such as Avigdor Lieberman, however they are the minority. Yeah, there is a strong amount of military sway in the government, but the military and governance are not yet combined. There is definitely discrimination against Palestinians, often horrific oppression, that cannot be denied, however Israel is still a capitalist democracy. Capitalism may often embrace some fascistic ideals, but I have never heard of the two some how becoming compatable. Fascism requries too much government control over the economy to be compatable with capitalism.

I would say the majority of people that do not oppose Israel on this website (this doesn't mean support) usually just prefer to turn a blind eye on the problem, often they are of German ancestry (my mother is the same way). They oppose the actions of Israel, but they are hesitant to straight out condemn it.

[Rafiq]

You argue like you would. I'd just like to remind you, that these kind of tactics are exactly what sparkled pro-Israel attitudes in the Anti-German movement in the first place.

What are you digging for? What are you talking about?

So you're saying I have a secret message behind my argument that gives Anti-Germans a reason to support Fascist Israel?



And it's the Anti-German kind of Tactics that sparkle Fascist pro-white Nationalist attitudes.. All over Europe ..

[bricolage]

Israel isn't fascist. Fascism is just not some term that can be thrown around in regards to any form of repression, authoritarianism, etc and need to be properly defined if it can actually mean anything.

The problem here like with most things is that it remains hard to effectively define fascism due to its lack of coherency. In this way Rick Wilford writes how its "ideas were unscrupulously pillaged from other traditions, cultures and doctrines. Moreover there is no locus classicus - akin, say, to the Communist Manifesto - which supplied the inspiration of fascist leaders and thinkers". However he does go on to identify five recurring themes in its evolution; statism, racialism, imperialism, elitism and National Socialism. I think these are useful, especially the statism (*) but perhaps not wholly adequate. Personally I'd add some references to militarism and the minimising of 'democracy' (in terms of the way it is currently conceived, ie. representative democracy).

Zeev Strenhell writes "the hard core and the most radical variety of a far more widespread, far older phenomenon: a comprehensive revision of the essential values of the humanistic, rationalistic and optimistic heritage of the Enlightenment".


(Note, I got these quotes from introduction to political ideology books I had in my first year at university, I still think they are quite useful though.)


This is what I think is most important here the identification of fascism by what it opposed, as he state, 'the essential values of the humanistic, rationalistic and optimistic heritage of the Enlightenment'. Classically fascists have of course been very clear on this;

"We stand for... sheer categorical definitive antithesis to the world which still abides by the fundamental principles laid down in 1789"

"The year 1789 is hereby eradicated from history".

In practical terms probably the clearest example of this is the fascist opposition to liberal representative democracy, of course once again spilling over into the intense statism.

To problem of conflating the totality of things like ethnic cleansing with fascism (which is being done here) not only buys into the discourse of the caring democratic state but actually has profound political implications beyond this. What it does is, by pushing everything 'bad' to the 'right', draws the fault lines at fascism versus not-fascism. However by shifting these lines, by showing ethnic cleansing etc is not unique to fascism we are able to reassert the actual fault lines of society, that the divide is not fascist vs non-fascist, by capital vs labour.

So returning to Israel. Israel as a state has obviously been responsible for horrific examples of ethnic cleansing, systematic exclusion and national oppression but it is by no means a fascist state. Of course there have been fascist groups in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai) (and in Zionist movements prior to its foundation) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Maximalism) but none of this means that the Israeli state, or the American state or the French state or the Greek state today are fascist states. In fact you will find that the vast majority of such state trace their lineage to the inherited ideals of the Enlightenment itself. Like I said this is an essential distinction if we are to redfine the paramaters of political discourse and to reassert where the real divisions in societal life lie.

* Mussoloni is clearest on this; "The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people."

[Rafiq]

* Mussoloni is clearest on this; "The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people."


I think we still should have the right to call Zionism a form of Fascism.

If Israel isn't Fascist, it's definitely on the road to Fascism.

At the very least, Israeli Leaders are Fascists themselves.

[Widerstand]

2. Israel is singled out because it's own Fascist Ideal which is Zionism, exists on this forum. Particularly among Anti-Germans.

Israel has been singled out by pretty much every present leftist organization. It's not an issue limited to this forum, using this forum as an argument doesn't explain the phenomenon.



4. My understanding of the Anti-Germans is their name. They are Anti-German(discriminative). Maybe a name change would be nice if you argue otherwise.

Maybe you should read a thread when you create it in the Learning section? Just a tip?



6. They are singled out because guess what? They are the most vicious Colony

Colony of whom? How does this "colonial" character make them worse than "non-colonial" state?

Most vicious by what measurement?



, they are in the Middle East, the worlds Largest center of attention for the US, and they are supported by Members on Revleft.

???????????????



7. I would have opposed Fascist Italy, because they were Fascist. Of course a Zionist wouldn't understand that.

Why are you repeating my point and then say I didn't make it?

Are you really hard trying to troll or are you really just so stuck up in your little argument that everyone who doesn't want to bomb Israel and kill all Israelis is an EVIL FASCIST?



8. So why do you hate Germany? And German Workers?

Jesus what the fuck where did I say I hate German Workers? Can you pull more baseless accusations out of your ass?



And... If you don't like Israel, maybe you shouldn't call yourself pro-Zionist.

Uhm, I would've never labeled myself pro-Zionist on my own terms. But it was said that this thread's definition of "Zionism" is "In any way shape or form, supporting the State of Israel".



Even if you don't like America, your antigerman friends carry the American Flag on almost all of their demonstrations.

How many Anti-German demos have you been to?



You don't represent Anti-Germans to a huge extent.

I have never claimed to do?


What are you digging for? What are you talking about?

So you're saying I have a secret message behind my argument that gives Anti-Germans a reason to support Fascist Israel?

I'll repeat myself:

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-32.htm
http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=88
http://www.signandsight.com/features/434.html



And it's the Anti-German kind of Tactics that sparkle Fascist pro-white Nationalist attitudes.. All over Europe ..

hahahaha now you're just making shit up, good job.

[timbaly]

Yeah, but that's sympathetic toward Zionism. Israel's 'Democracy' is Zionist.

However that is correct, in a way, but it is still sympathy toward Zionism.


Would you say that supporting Israel's right to exist on the grounds that the Israeli citizens should not be forcibly removed or resettled from their homes to make room for Palestinian resettlement still sympathy towards Zionism?

[bricolage]

I think we still should have the right to call Zionism a form of Fascism.
Why? It's misleading and counter-productive.

If Israel isn't Fascist, it's definitely on the road to Fascism.
I don't know. Maybe you could argue that as demographics change and Israel becomes forced to govern from more and more of a minority population the Israeli state will be forced to resort to more authoritarian, centralised and state-orientated measures. Personally I don't think this isn't very likely at all, and even if it does happen it seems almost impossible that it will result in fascism. Then again I assume you say 'on the road to Fascism' because the Israeli state kills lots of Palestinians and keeps the rest in horrific conditions, as I said this does not equate to fascism.

At the very least, Israeli Leaders are Fascists themselves.
In what way?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I don't see why Israel can be singled out as a state to be opposed specifically, given that there are literally hundreds of states that are the same in one aspect or the other, if not worse.
You're aware "hundreds of states" implies there is more than 200 states. In reality there is less 200. Fail.

[Widerstand]

You're aware "hundreds of states" implies there is more than 200 states. In reality there is less 200. Fail.

derp.

[the last donut of the night]

malte is never around when you need him

[Rafiq]

Colony of whom? How does this "colonial" character make them worse than "non-colonial" state?

Most vicious by what measurement?





Seriously, fuck you.

Israel is a Colony of America.

I never FUCKING said Israel was worse then America you dumb piece of Anti German Trash.

I said Israel is the worst among the colony's, the colony's of America and EU.

You Just don't get it, you never will.

Typical Anti-Germans.

http://bikinibottom.blogsport.de/images/israeldemo.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/Hamm02.jpg

Hmm I spot an American Flag. LOL with those Stripes waving, they almost look like tea partyers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Antideutsche_rassisten.jpg

[Rafiq]

Would you say that supporting Israel's right to exist on the grounds that the Israeli citizens should not be forcibly removed or resettled from their homes to make room for Palestinian resettlement still sympathy towards Zionism?

No.

Whoever supports the current Israeli Regime is Zionist, or sympathetic.

How did the Africans overcome the Apartheid in South Africa?

Revolution is the answer for Israel. Not "kicking out the Jews".

We must smash Zionism, that is the answer for Israel.

[Rafiq]

In what way?



Germany: Ayran Nationalism
Israel: Jewish Nationalism.

Germany: Nazi Fascism
Israel: Zionist Fascism

Germany: Oppression of minority's
Israel: Oppression of Blacks, Palestinians ect.

Germany: Justified killing Jews "Because they are dirty, they are a threat to our nation and should leave."
Israel: Must I explain?

Toppled with some Economic similarity's.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Uy2jpMqNnio/THWPzdG15DI/AAAAAAAAAdo/iYv9iRqDt9Y/s1600/new_flag_of_israel.jpg

[Widerstand]

Seriously, fuck you.

Funnily enough this is about the best argument you made so far.


Israel is a Colony of America.

Uhm uh how about no? If anything, Israel is a semi-colony of America because it depends on American Capital.

Anyhow, it being "the worst American colony" still doesn't explain why amongst all the states of the world Israel is singled out to be the single worst and most reactionary one that is most vehemently opposed by western leftists.



I never FUCKING said Israel was worse then America you dumb piece of Anti German Trash.

Oh really:


But the United States is the biggest murderer. At least their government isn't based on Ethnic Supremacy, though.

[bricolage]

Germany: Ayran Nationalism
Israel: Jewish Nationalism.
The world is comprised of, on the whole, nation-states. They are all founded on nationalism. Arguably Zionism is a more expansionary form of nationalism but that is besides the point.

Germany: Nazi Fascism
Israel: Zionist Fascism
Ummm, this doesn't really prove anything...

Germany: Oppression of minority's
Israel: Oppression of Blacks, Palestinians ect.
And there aren't oppression of minorities elsewhere? France just started rounding up Roma within its borders, is France fascist?

Germany: Justified killing Jews "Because they are dirty, they are a threat to our nation and should leave."
Israel: Must I explain?
See France example above.

Toppled with some Economic similarity's.
Explain? Fascism is largely based on a corporatist model which I don't see in Israel.

[Magón]

I wouldn't call Israel a "Colony" of the US, but definitely a puppet state. But not even really that since Israel has from the very beginning of the US taking over as it's most supportive power in the world, had the US Government by the balls each time they're attacked or ridiculed on something, calling the people "anti-Zionist" or what have you.

I mean Israel is the US's best shot at "democracy" in the Middle East. I don't think they'd do or say anything that would jeopardize that in anyway. So that's why I see Israel as being more the ball smasher of the two, rather the other way around.

[Reznov]

I didn't support Nazi Germany then and I wont support Israel today.

[Le Corsaire Rouge]

statism, racialism, imperialism, elitism and National Socialism. I think these are useful, especially the statism (*) but perhaps not wholly adequate. Personally I'd add some references to militarism and the minimising of 'democracy' (in terms of the way it is currently conceived, ie. representative democracy).
Comrade, you didn't go on to examine whether these describe the Israeli state. It is statist, in that the Israeli state extends into almost every private enterprise. It is explicitly racialist - I don't think we need to argue about that one. It has made imperialist attacks on not only Palestine but also the neighbouring states, and postures against other regional powers such as Iraq and Iran. It is racially institutionally elitist and because of the strong traditional values of Judaism is very hierarchical and patriarchal. It provides for the racially pure in a quasi-socialist way. It is extremely militaristic, with all young people conscripted and glorified for doing so. And the systematic exclusion of the indigenous Arabs is anti-democratic. So, do you not think that the definition that you provide in fact supports the idea that Israel is, if not as extreme an example of a fascist state as Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy, at the very least on some sort of fascist spectrum?

[Pretty Flaco]

We should express solidarity with all people, but not the governments. We should oppose zionism because it calls for a state based upon race, which is counterproductive. We should oppose the Israeli government because of it's actions against the Palestinians.

Half of the arguments earlier in this thread have no real basis and consist mainly of ad hominems.

[La Peur Rouge]

I think Israel has the exact same 'right to exist' as any other nation state: Ultimately none

I think a lot of this arguing could have been avoided by reading.

[The Vegan Marxist]

"I'm supporting one reactionary regime because the other is jewish"

- Shariati

This is the same b.s. line that Israel tried condoning on the Soviet Union. Claiming they were anti-semitic because of their line of anti-zionism. Of course, this was far from truth. I'll even use an example. There was an article in the Young Pioneer's Newspaper on November 1980 that attacked Zionism, calling it 'modern day Fascism', as well 'the main enemy of peace on Earth'. It also continued by stating that Zionists who control 'the major portion' of the US mainstream media had 'orchestrated anti-Soviet campaigns and opposed the strategic arms limitation treaty', & that 'Jewish bankers and billionaires' established the Jewish Defence League that terrorized Soviet diplomats in New York, along with 'defending their own class interests'.

As a response to this article, Jewish dissidents stated:


"We regard it as one of the worst examples of anti-Semitic writings to have appeared in Soviet publications in recent years ... Even more unfortunately, it is the first time in recent memory that anything so blatant has appeared in material intended for children."

(New York Times, 8 November 1989, p. 2.)

Sociologist Professor Albert Szymanski then responded to the Jewish dissidents' accusations, stating:


"If such statements are indeed the most blatant examples of official anti-Semitism that Zionist critics of the Soviet system can find, one can be assured that there is no official anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union."

(Szymanski, Albert. "The European Nationalities." Human Rights in the Soviet Union. Zed, 1984. 97. Print.)

[Widerstand]

This is the same b.s. line that Israel tried condoning on the Soviet Union. Claiming they were anti-semitic because of their line of anti-zionism. Of course, this was far from truth. I'll even use an example. There was an article in the Young Pioneer's Newspaper on November 1980 that attacked Zionism, calling it 'modern day Fascism', as well 'the main enemy of peace on Earth'. It also continued by stating that Zionists who control 'the major portion' of the US mainstream media had 'orchestrated anti-Soviet campaigns and opposed the strategic arms limitation treaty', & that 'Jewish bankers and billionaires' established the Jewish Defence League that terrorized Soviet diplomats in New York, along with 'defending their own class interests'.

You could argue that "Zionism is the main source of evil" and "Zionist world conspiracy" type theories are not inherently anti-semitic, and I would agree, to an extent, that they often aren't motivated by anti-semitism, but they do definitely carry these notions, cater to these notions and ultimately serve to reinforce anti-semitism.

Again, read the articles I linked earlier.

[9]

Wow, this thread is pretty terrible across the board...

[The Vegan Marxist]

You could argue that "Zionism is the main source of evil" and "Zionist world conspiracy" type theories are not inherently anti-semitic, and I would agree, to an extent, that they often aren't motivated by anti-semitism, but they do definitely carry these notions, cater to these notions and ultimately serve to reinforce anti-semitism.

Again, read the articles I linked earlier.

It's nothing about a "Zionist world conspiracy". It's about the birth of Zionism through terrorist attacks against Palestinian citizens, ethnic cleansing, etc., that was helped funded through the British empire, France, & later on the US after all Palestinian territory was taken over.

Zionist-terrorism = Irgun & Stern Gang

[Die Rote Fahne]

No, I do not support Zionism or the state of Israel. Isreal, however, exists. That's a fact. Regardless of how illigitimate it's creation was.

However, what zionism stands for is the unabashed support for the state of Israel and it's policies. It stands for having a "Jewish state". I can support no ideology that believes in placing these divisions among the workers.

It is a form of nationalism and is reactionary. Zionism, it is the enemy of both Arab and Jewish workers alike.

[MooseCracker]

Zionism is certainly Fascism (liberal Fascism for its supporters though and I think that is part of what keeps it going). Before I rant I want to put a disclaimer out that I am no NAZI and in no way support violence done against Jews especially for the sake of their being Jewish. Not to defend yourself from somebody based on the hardships that their race has historically endured is also equally racist. It says 'oh these people are victims/ weak and always will be, if I defend myself it could wipe them out'.

Israel is a state that was formed illegally and has taken over most of Palestine, it continues to press outwards breaking/ ignoring international law with American support and ignoring democracy in Palestinian regions based on their own preferences, it's the old 'you have the right to choose as long as you choose what we tell you to' (ironically this has actually lead to the situation where religion based governments are elected as they tore apart the secular governments themselves).
Based on ancient Judaic ideas of the areas maps many Zionists also believe that once Palestine is claimed there is no reason to restrict to that as Jordon, Lebanon, and Syria were all part of the "promised land".
On one hand it is Nationalism based (Jews believed that they were a Nation despite being dispersed all over the world and so deserved borders to put that nation in) on the other hand the National boundaries are founded in religious beliefs.

Points that nobody ever mentions:
- Israeli Zionists hate not only Palestinians but Iranians, it's interesting that it was the Persians (Iranians, pre-Islam admittedly) who freed them from Babylon and later ensured their right to practice Judaism.
- Christian Zionists (which is completely religion based) add to the issue by settling in Israel and supporting the National Zionist cause.
- There are a good number of American accents floating around the "Holy Land", are American Jews honestly fleeing persecution? Why are they for their "homeland" that their immediate families never inhabited? My great great grandmother was from India (for me that's a much more recent connection to India than the connection between these Jews and Israel) but if I headed for India and claimed that even though I'm white India is my homeland...
- In the 80s it was the US and Israel that blocked UN intentions to fight terrorism.
- Zionist Fascism isn't actually Jewish per se. It's pro-Ashkenazim, European Jews, but in Israeli society other Jews, especially Mizrahi are only reluctantly accepted (still considered lower class, dirty, all the old stereotypes, etc.). Many Mizrahim have left homes in other places with more economic issues, like some places in Africa, because Israel is the best option for them (best chance to make a living etc.), but they still believe that they are accepted only to bolster Jewish numbers within Israel. At one time Ashkenazi were the minority now they make up over 70%. Look for a documentary called "The Ringworm Children" there are a number of books etc. that also cover the issue but these are thing never discussed especially in the west.

[Barry Lyndon]

I wouldn't call Israel fascist(although it certainly has powerful fascist political forces), but it is without a doubt a colonial settler state- that is, its very foundation is built on the colonization and ethnic cleansing of the land's indigenous population. Besides Israel I can think of only two modern nation-states that have been built this way-South Africa and the United States.

The anti-Germans are scum. If Maoist Third Worldists are banned from this forum, then they should be too. The anti-Germans have basically reduced communism to anti-fascism to such a ludicrous extreme that they themselves have become hardcore anti-Arab racists.

[Revolutionair]

I didn't read through all the posts in this thread but here's my take on it:
Zionism does not have to mean the support for the current nation of Israel as a pseudo-colony of the USA. It does not have to mean the support for the American, German and Russian immigrants who suppress the Palestinian peoples.
On this issue I agree with Chomsky. I can't find the video but basically he says that he was a Zionist youth organizer or something like that, as a Zionist he supported the collaboration of the Israeli working class and the Palestinian working class in their fight for workers' rights.
As a Zionist I support the descendants of the people who were driven out of the Middle East during the diaspora and their right to live in the Middle East. This includes forming anarchist collectives like the Kibbutz movement. This also includes supporting ideas that will improve the life of the Israeli people like: a stop on the massacring of the Palestinians as this will only result in the need for 'terrorism', a rollback of the Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory, a border change to go back like they were in 1947, a stop on the subsidy of Israeli settlers.
You might dislike these ideas and so do I, but they are realistic and they are steps in the right direction.

So which option should I choose in the poll?

[gorillafuck]

Besides Israel I can think of only two modern nation-states that have been built this way-South Africa and the United States.
What about Canada and Australia?

Everything you said about Israel is right though.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I didn't read through all the posts in this thread but here's my take on it:
Zionism does not have to mean the support for the current nation of Israel as a pseudo-colony of the USA. It does not have to mean the support for the American, German and Russian immigrants who suppress the Palestinian peoples.
On this issue I agree with Chomsky. I can't find the video but basically he says that he was a Zionist youth organizer or something like that, as a Zionist he supported the collaboration of the Israeli working class and the Palestinian working class in their fight for workers' rights.
As a Zionist I support the descendants of the people who were driven out of the Middle East during the diaspora and their right to live in the Middle East. This includes forming anarchist collectives like the Kibbutz movement. This also includes supporting ideas that will improve the life of the Israeli people like: a stop on the massacring of the Palestinians as this will only result in the need for 'terrorism', a rollback of the Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory, a border change to go back like they were in 1947, a stop on the subsidy of Israeli settlers.
You might dislike these ideas and so do I, but they are realistic and they are steps in the right direction.

So which option should I choose in the poll?

Chomsky also believes that the Zionist state should cease to exist in its present form, & should be taken back by Palestinian workers - the original holders of once-known Palestine.

[RadioRaheem84]

Chomsky renounced the Kibbutz Movement as while a good example of libertarian socialist, fundamentally anti-Arab and nationalist.

He was a Zionist in his youth, he went to the same Zionist Youth camp with Alan Dershowitz.

Chomsky is very anti-Israel though.

There is nothing leftist about supporting Israel. It's just a stupid new move by pseudo-leftists after this whole pro-Western democracy shit came in after the Clinton/Blair years.

[Widerstand]

However, what zionism stands for is the unabashed support for the state of Israel and it's policies. It stands for having a "Jewish state". I can support no ideology that believes in placing these divisions among the workers.

I'm Anti-Zionist by that definition of Zionism.

Funny isn't it? Everyone uses different terms and judges people according to how they interpret them.



The anti-Germans are scum. If Maoist Third Worldists are banned from this forum, then they should be too. The anti-Germans have basically reduced communism to anti-fascism to such a ludicrous extreme that they themselves have become hardcore anti-Arab racists.

I'm extremely Anti-Islamophobe. I actually study Islam and Arab culture. Fuck your assumptions.

[Barry Lyndon]

I'm extremely Anti-Islamophobe. I actually study Islam and Arab culture. Fuck your assumptions.

Adolf Eichmann was an expert in Hebrew and Yiddish.
Fuck your equivocating.

[Widerstand]

Adolf Eichmann was an expert in Hebrew and Yiddish.
Fuck your equivocating.

I like how you have zero understanding of my politics and judge me nonetheless over my opinion on a single state. It's reflective of the lefts obsession with Israel.

[Barry Lyndon]

I like how you have zero understanding of my politics and judge me nonetheless over my opinion on a single state. It's reflective of the lefts obsession with Israel.

Actually, no one is more obsessed with Israel and Zionism then its apologists.
That's a great tactic you just used there of projection, right out of Alan Dershowitz's playbook.

[Widerstand]

Actually, no one is more obsessed with Israel and Zionism then its apologists.

I don't think I have participated in any discussion about Israel on this board, except the ones sparked as an aftermath of this week's Anti-German related threads.

I have never, neither here nor IRL, started a discussion about Israel.

I could care fucking less.

[n17yids]

Ah the so-called "Socialists" who support a Hamas sponsored state in Israel. I mean come on, how hypocritical can you actually be?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Ah the so-called "Socialists" who support a Hamas sponsored state in Israel. I mean come on, how hypocritical can you actually be?

Well, no offense, but the Hamas at least took better care of their people than Israel's done in the last many decades. I'll support the Hamas over the Zionists any day.

[n17yids]

Actually, no one is more obsessed with Israel and Zionism then its apologists.
That's a great tactic you just used there of projection, right out of Alan Dershowitz's playbook.

That makes no sense whatsoever. The ones obsessed with Israel are the anti-Israelis like you. The ones who want to see Israel destroyed (who push for it to the streets) and the implementation of a Hamas fascist state.

[Kiev Communard]

The Historical Zionism with its corporatist economic policies was most definitely closer to Mussolini's fascism than anything else after the WW II (Franco does not count here). Modern Zionists simply turned from one form of political reaction to another.

[n17yids]

Well, no offense, but the Hamas at least took better care of their people than Israel's done in the last many decades. I'll support the Hamas over the Zionists any day.

Yes you're right. Hamas has treated their people well. By using them as a barrier against the IDF, putting them in the crossfire of war between Hamas and Israel.

Israel gives health, education, and rights to its citizens. 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs who share the same benefits as do Jews and Christians. I have been to Israel, I have seen Arabs studying at various universities. Have you been to Israel? Or do you just sit on your computer and call it the fourth Reich?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Yes you're right. Hamas has treated their people well. By using them as a barrier against the IDF, putting them in the crossfire of war between Hamas and Israel.

Israel gives health, education, and rights to its citizens. 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs who share the same benefits as do Jews and Christians. I have been to Israel, I have seen Arabs studying at various universities. Have you been to Israel? Or do you just sit on your computer and call it the fourth Reich?

1. Bullshit. The Hamas are oppressors, but they've never used their people as shields against IDF troops. That's been a long used myth to try & cover up the IDF's crimes on human-shielding.

2. Israel gives them these acquirements to shut them up. Israel's also given their people terrorist actions as well. How about when right after the Hamas won parliamentary elections in January 2006, Israel then starved the people of Gaza as a form of what they considered as "collective punishment"? What about the Phalangist massacre? What about the Deir Yassin massacre? Are all these incidents just make-believe & rather the Hamas, &/or all those of the PLO the real terrorists in your view of things? Because if so, then you're obviously no friend to the workers, no friend to the Palestinians, no friend to the Jews, & no friend to us.

[n17yids]

1. Bullshit. The Hamas are oppressors, but they've never used their people as shields against IDF troops. That's been a long used myth to try & cover up the IDF's crimes on human-shielding.

2. Israel gives them these acquirements to shut them up. Israel's also given their people terrorist actions as well. How about when right after the Hamas won parliamentary elections in January 2006, Israel then starved the people of Gaza as a form of what they considered as "collective punishment"? What about the Phalangist massacre? What about the Deir Yassin massacre? Are all these incidents just make-believe & rather the Hamas, &/or all those of the PLO the real terrorists in your view of things? Because if so, then you're obviously no friend to the workers, no friend to the Palestinians, no friend to the Jews, & no friend to us.

I understand Israel hasn't been perfect at all. But you fail to realize that Israel does have a right to defend itself because constantly, everyday for last few decades, suicide bombers, and rockets are plummeted into Israel. And Israel has been patient but it can't always be this lenient. I have talked to Israelis and Palestinians a like in Israel. Both disagree with how both sides react to the situation. But what I do know is that every Palestinian I talked to has been disgusted with how Hamas are treating both the Palestinians and the Israelis. They are living in a neo-fascist theocracy (is that what us Marxists are in favour of?)
I am not denying the Palestinians a state but I cannot accept any state that holds a theocratic oppressive regime that gives their citizens no rights, no health, and no education.

[bricolage]

Comrade, you didn't go on to examine whether these describe the Israeli state. It is statist, in that the Israeli state extends into almost every private enterprise.
I don't think it does more than any other state to be honest, for starts look at all the privatisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatization_in_Israel). Beyond that though statism is not just about economics its about a complete subordination of all aspects of society to the state, you could make an argument that in Israel there is complete subordination to the nation but I don't think it is true of the state.

It is extremely militaristic, with all young people conscripted and glorified for doing so.
This is true but then conscription takes place in many countries in the world and I think militarism extends beyond this it is about military control over large areas and aspects of civil society which if we look at Israel internally (not externally), remembering that fascism is predominantly a way a state is internally organised, is not the case.

Yet whilst you can be agreed of in terms of racism, elitism and imperialism I think this misses the defining characteristics of fascism, ie. opposition to the legacy of the Enlightenment legacy. Israel is a liberal democracy with gay rights, youth freedom etc etc, it is not organised as a fascist state would be. Obviously if we just take the external actions of Israel this changes but then was the British Empire fascist? Is the USA fascist? I don't think so at all.

[BeerShaman]

I support no religion and no state, other than some antiauthoritarian dogmas, which are still dogmas and thus, a bit reactionary. Watch occupation 101, if you still don't oppose zionism and the Israeli state (not the Israeli people), then you're a fool.
p.s. It is wrong to blame the Israeli people for everything and consider them evil. It's just their state, government and some kind of leading way of thinking that makes them victims or killers and exploiters by consent.
www.documentarywire.com/occupation-101/ (http://www.documentarywire.com/occupation-101/)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SbjAanvUqs

[The Vegan Marxist]

I understand Israel hasn't been perfect at all. But you fail to realize that Israel does have a right to defend itself because constantly, everyday for last few decades, suicide bombers, and rockets are plummeted into Israel. And Israel has been patient but it can't always be this lenient. I have talked to Israelis and Palestinians a like in Israel. Both disagree with how both sides react to the situation. But what I do know is that every Palestinian I talked to has been disgusted with how Hamas are treating both the Palestinians and the Israelis. They are living in a neo-fascist theocracy (is that what us Marxists are in favour of?)
I am not denying the Palestinians a state but I cannot accept any state that holds a theocratic oppressive regime that gives their citizens no rights, no health, and no education.

As Marxists, we initially support the PFLP over the Hamas. Yes, the Hamas aren't the best choice of leadership, but they're the most powerful force against Israeli terrorism.

And why do you think they remain militant? Why do you think that they remain shooting rockets at IDF's? Why do you think they choose to resort to suicide bombings? You think that after all the terrorism in the past by Israel, & all the terrorist attacks that still keep happening today, that the Hamas, or any other militant Palestinian is going to just sit there & wait for some "peaceful negotiation"? Hell no! Peaceful negotiations were tried before many times in the past. Look at the Oslo Accords. That sure as hell didn't do a damn thing better for both Palestinians & Jews alike.

You seem to act like a Western pawn against the Palestinians when it comes to your condemning of the tactics used to protect the Palestinian people. Take the Gaza massacre for example in 2005 when Israeli troops surrounded all of Gaza, which held at the time around 1.5 million people. Of course, when attacks were brought against those who resided in the area, those inside resisted. Resulted to suicide bombings, rocket attacks, & the like. Of course, the US didn't want this to be known, so they released b.s. propaganda by blaming the Palestinians for the reason behind the attacks on Gaza. It was Rep. Howard Berman who authored the House Resolution 34, in which read:


(5) Calls on all nations --


(A) to condemn Hamas for deliberately embedding its fighters, leaders, and weapons on private homes, schools, mosques, hospitals, and otherwise using Palestinian civilians as human shields, while simultaneously targeting Israeli civilians; and

(B) to lay blame both for the breaking of the "calm" and for subsequent civilian casualties in Gaza precisely where blame belongs, that is, on Hamas.

Yet, even when this resolution passed by a vote of 390-5, with 16 abstentions, not a single word was mentioned about Israel & their 10 day terrorist actions on innocent civilians through the use of heavy bombings & shelling civilian areas, & in fact were the ones using civilians as human shields against the Hamas, not the other way around.

[Barry Lyndon]

[QUOTE=n17yids;1902173]Yes you're right. Hamas has treated their people well. By using them as a barrier against the IDF, putting them in the crossfire of war between Hamas and Israel.[QUOTE]

That is a brazen lie. Even bourgeois human rights organizations have investigated these allegations of Hamas using civilians as human sheilds and could find no evidence. They did find evidence of Israeli soliders using Palestinian civilians as shields in gun battles with Palestinian militants.

I have been to Israel, and I have friends who have lived and gone to school there. It is a very racist and militarist society, across the political spectrum. Even 'peace groups' like Gush Shalom(Peace Now) supported actions like the bombing of Lebanon, and 94% of the Israeli Jewish public supported Operation Cast Lead, which killed over 300 Palestinian children.
Within Israel, the Arab population is routinely discriminated against, and from time to time violently attacked, with the police doing vritually nothing to protect them.

You are full of shit and have no idea what your talking about.

[Comrade B]

Alright, I got up to page 3, don't have enough time to read the whole thread, but I have to say, please do not compare Israel to Nazi Germany. You can argue that it is fascist, but it is not near as brutal, cruel or directly fueled entirely by hate as Nazi Germany. Israel has yet to kill millions of innocent people and launch the bloodiest war in history. Israel may have a fascist movement, and some fascist politicians, and these fascists may believe in race supremacy, but they do not attempt to commit genocide. They may care less about killing people of other races, but they do not put an effort into extermination. You can call some of its policies fascist, but there is no way you can call it genocidal.

There are few situations where you could compare anything to Nazi Germany in its active policies of extermination of those they found undesirable, the onlything I can think of coming close to this is the US extermination of Californian natives.

[Rafiq]

Alright, I got up to page 3, don't have enough time to read the whole thread, but I have to say, please do not compare Israel to Nazi Germany. You can argue that it is fascist, but it is not near as brutal, cruel or directly fueled entirely by hate as Nazi Germany. Israel has yet to kill millions of innocent people and launch the bloodiest war in history. Israel may have a fascist movement, and some fascist politicians, and these fascists may believe in race supremacy, but they do not attempt to commit genocide. They may care less about killing people of other races, but they do not put an effort into extermination. You can call some of its policies fascist, but there is no way you can call it genocidal.

There are few situations where you could compare anything to Nazi Germany in its active policies of extermination of those they found undesirable, the onlything I can think of coming close to this is the US extermination of Californian natives.

Yeah, no.

Give Israel time, and they will kill Millions. They haven't killed enough for you already?

And Israel isn't fueled by hate?

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/uploads/no-arabs-483.jpg

http://radioislam.org/islam/english/terror/hebron_graffiti_5.jpg

http://palestinethinktank.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/israeli-kids.jpg

http://attendingtheworld.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/israeli-children-attacking-arab-woman.jpg?w=614

[RadioRaheem84]

I understand Israel hasn't been perfect at all. But you fail to realize that Israel does have a right to defend itself because constantly, everyday for last few decades, suicide bombers, and rockets are plummeted into Israel. And Israel has been patient but it can't always be this lenient. I have talked to Israelis and Palestinians a like in Israel. Both disagree with how both sides react to the situation. But what I do know is that every Palestinian I talked to has been disgusted with how Hamas are treating both the Palestinians and the Israelis. They are living in a neo-fascist theocracy (is that what us Marxists are in favour of?)
I am not denying the Palestinians a state but I cannot accept any state that holds a theocratic oppressive regime that gives their citizens no rights, no health, and no education.

The marked news sources out there have really skewered new comrades into thinking remarkably liberal things. Israel is not defending itself.

It is committing the worst kinds of ethnic cleansing and dealing with the reactions of a frustrated and marginalized group of people. There is no defense worth moralizing that can come from that.

No I do not like Hamas, but why is that people these days seem to compare a shoddy organization like Hamas with one of the most powerful military nations in the history of the world!

[The Vegan Marxist]

Yeah, no.

Give Israel time, and they will kill Millions. They haven't killed enough for you already?

And Israel isn't fueled by hate?

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/uploads/no-arabs-483.jpg

http://radioislam.org/islam/english/terror/hebron_graffiti_5.jpg

http://palestinethinktank.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/israeli-kids.jpg

http://attendingtheworld.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/israeli-children-attacking-arab-woman.jpg?w=614

Don't forget this too:

http://sphr.org/v3/images/stories/1-israel_t-shirt.jpg

[~Spectre]

One has to remember that in Shariati's "mind", observing that the State of Israel can't be overthrown by a Hamas-Hezbollah coalition = ZIONIST FASCIST SWINE!!!!!!

[Rafiq]

One has to remember that in Shariati's "mind", observing that the State of Israel can't be overthrown by a Hamas-Hezbollah coalition = ZIONIST FASCIST SWINE!!!!!!

Well it actually can , whether we are supportive of it or not.

It is unavoidable that Israel will be overthrown by Hezbollah or Hamas, and their coalition groups (LCP, PFLP).

However, that doesn't mean that the future of the state cannot be a Workers state.

For instance, It is possible that, if Hezbollah crushes the Zionist Regime, a Socialist movement would take over control of the nation.

Hezbollah and Hamas would just be taking down Israel militarily.

Then the Palestinian, Jewish, Workers will decide what they want.

I don't know about Hamas, but Hezbollah isn't supportive of an Islamist state in Palestine.

I'm sure they prefer one controlled by the Palestinians and Jews.


Though I wonder why you only focus on "Why we shouldn't support Hamas or Hezbollah", rather then the real problem, which is "How can the Palestinian people be free".


The Zionist regime will collapse, it's only a matter of time.

The question is not If, the question is how to react.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Hezbollah is a bit more open to Socialism as well than the Hamas is. So I'd prefer the Hezbollah over the Hamas. Of course, I'll always truly support the PFLP. :)

[RadioRaheem84]

How can one understand the fundamental shift in thinking for many young leftists today?

It seems that many leftists have been infused with liberalism and evoke a sort Fukuyama-ish type of leftism; that Western Liberal Democracy is better than X totalitarianism.

When people see Hamas and Hezbollah and hell even the PLFP, they think authoritarianism.

They think of this over the fact that these organizations constitute next to nothing in might in comparison to a capitalist, arms dealing, imperialist, neo-colonial State that has exploited, expropriated and capitalized on the land, resources, and labor of the Palestinians. A powerful state that has enough money, political muscle and arms to literally scare the shit out of the rest of the countries in the region.

Somehow this all nothing in comparison to the images of shattered, humiliated people using extreme and vile measures to free themselves from oppression. Thus their image is seen as a scarier one that the Zionist minded administrations (especially Sharon's) of the past and the new administration now. Even with all the criticism they levy at Israeli policies they still have the nerve to portray them as the real victims! Not even great Israeli dissidents think of the Israeli State as the victims that need defense against "Islamo-Fascism".

Something is seriously wrong with the left and it has obviously been co-opted by people who lack a fundamental materialist perspective and load their rhetoric with idealist and liberal idealogical drivel. I hate the fact that four people on revleft actually insisted that they support Zionism and Israel or the people that are sympathetic to it.

We do this exact thing with other historical examinations. Somehow the USSR becomes singled out as the greatest threat after Nazism to humanity, while throughout the history of the twentieth century the imperial nations committed mass slaughter against people freeing themselves from colonial oppression!
It's the same mentality with the Israeli situation.

[Ivan Jansa]

Well it actually can , whether we are supportive of it or not.

It is unavoidable that Israel will be overthrown by Hezbollah or Hamas, and their coalition groups (LCP, PFLP).

However, that doesn't mean that the future of the state cannot be a Workers state.

For instance, It is possible that, if Hezbollah crushes the Zionist Regime, a Socialist movement would take over control of the nation.

Hezbollah and Hamas would just be taking down Israel militarily.

Then the Palestinian, Jewish, Workers will decide what they want.

I don't know about Hamas, but Hezbollah isn't supportive of an Islamist state in Palestine.

I'm sure they prefer one controlled by the Palestinians and Jews.


Though I wonder why you only focus on "Why we shouldn't support Hamas or Hezbollah", rather then the real problem, which is "How can the Palestinian people be free".


The Zionist regime will collapse, it's only a matter of time.

The question is not If, the question is how to react.

Sorry, but this is nothing more than wishful thinking. Hamas is a militant Islamist movement and violently opposes any kinds of socialism or communism and while Hezbollah is willing to tolerate communists in their alliance, they are above all Iranian-style islamists and the closes ally of Hamas which they support with weapons and instructors. The objective of both groups is establishment of separate islamic republics. How do I know this? I am a muslim and I've met members of both parties in an Islamic Centre in Sweden and all of them are islamists first and foremost. That doesn't means I support Israel, but I would prefer a legitimate socialist movement taking over the leading role in resistance.

[Who?]

I understand Israel hasn't been perfect at all. But you fail to realize that Israel does have a right to defend itself because constantly, everyday for last few decades, suicide bombers, and rockets are plummeted into Israel. And Israel has been patient but it can't always be this lenient. I have talked to Israelis and Palestinians a like in Israel. Both disagree with how both sides react to the situation. But what I do know is that every Palestinian I talked to has been disgusted with how Hamas are treating both the Palestinians and the Israelis. They are living in a neo-fascist theocracy (is that what us Marxists are in favour of?)
I am not denying the Palestinians a state but I cannot accept any state that holds a theocratic oppressive regime that gives their citizens no rights, no health, and no education.

Oh yeah, they're defending themselves alright.

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f6b27f4ad781.jpg

Children are the real enemy, right?

http://leisureguy.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/israeli-and-palestinian-deaths.png

Patient and lenient?

Right...

The Israeli government has committed great crimes against the Palestinian people and should not be supported. End of story.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Sorry, but this is nothing more than wishful thinking. Hamas is a militant Islamist movement and violently opposes any kinds of socialism or communism and while Hezbollah is willing to tolerate communists in their alliance, they are above all Iranian-style islamists and the closes ally of Hamas which they support with weapons and instructors. The objective of both groups is establishment of separate islamic republics. How do I know this? I am a muslim and I've met members of both parties in an Islamic Centre in Sweden and all of them are islamists first and foremost. That doesn't means I support Israel, but I would prefer a legitimate socialist movement taking over the leading role in resistance.

And you oppose for the Hezbollah to show support in the Hamas against the Zionist state? I'd rather have an oppressive, but independent Islamic state than a colonialist pawn to US imperialism. At least the workers would then have a chance in organizing against the State to bring about Socialism. The primary antagonism right now is imperialism. So the abolishment of the Zionist State is top priority right now.

[Rafiq]

Sorry, but this is nothing more than wishful thinking. Hamas is a militant Islamist movement and violently opposes any kinds of socialism or communism and while Hezbollah is willing to tolerate communists in their alliance, they are above all Iranian-style islamists and the closes ally of Hamas which they support with weapons and instructors. The objective of both groups is establishment of separate islamic republics. How do I know this? I am a muslim and I've met members of both parties in an Islamic Centre in Sweden and all of them are islamists first and foremost. That doesn't means I support Israel, but I would prefer a legitimate socialist movement taking over the leading role in resistance.

Hamas is supported by Hezbollah only militarily. Hezbollah is officially becoming Socialist.

As a matter of fact, I'm sure everyone on this forum including me would prefer a Marxist Movement taking the lead on the Palestinian movement, but we know that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

It is likely Hamas will follow Hezbollah's footsteps toward Socialism, though.

[Conghaileach]

Is there a real difference between options 2 and 4 in the poll above?

Israel is a racist, colonial settler state. It's apartheid state and should be treated as such, as people around the world did with South Africa.

Also, what is the point of the "anti-German" stuff at the start of the thread? Germany does have some very restrictive laws on people daring to criticise Israel, but that's due in large part to a mass guilt complex over the Holocaust. But what happened then in no way allows the zionists a free hand to go about their slow-burn extermination of the Palestinian people.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Hamas is supported by Hezbollah only militarily. Hezbollah is officially becoming Socialist.

As a matter of fact, I'm sure everyone on this forum including me would prefer a Marxist Movement taking the lead on the Palestinian movement, but we know that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

It is likely Hamas will follow Hezbollah's footsteps toward Socialism, though.

Idk about that. I can't really see the Hamas embracing socialism. Not saying it's impossible, but not really likely. I can see the PFLP doing joint-relations with the Hezbollah, but not the Hamas when it comes to socialism.

Also, I've heard from various other people stating that the Hezbollah are embracing Socialism a lot more now. Is there any articles showing this or what?

[Ivan Jansa]

And you oppose for the Hezbollah to show support in the Hamas against the Zionist state? I'd rather have an oppressive, but independent Islamic state than a colonialist pawn to US imperialism. At least the workers would then have a chance in organizing against the State to bring about Socialism. The primary antagonism right now is imperialism. So the abolishment of the Zionist State is top priority right now.

How is an independent oppressive Islamic state any better than the current one? They'll still be executing socialists on the street and who knows what else. Not to mention that Hamas is incapable of standing up against Israel (if you look their training videos you'll see how horrible their performance is). Hezbollah is capable of standing up against Israel as long as they are on their own terrain but they have no offensive capabilities. They aren't getting any more socialist, secular maybe but not socialist for sure, they are merely caving in to small LCP demands.


Hamas is supported by Hezbollah only militarily. Hezbollah is officially becoming Socialist.

As a matter of fact, I'm sure everyone on this forum including me would prefer a Marxist Movement taking the lead on the Palestinian movement, but we know that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

It is likely Hamas will follow Hezbollah's footsteps toward Socialism, though.

Can you source that?

[The Vegan Marxist]

How is an independent oppressive Islamic state any better than the current one? They'll still be executing socialists on the street and who knows what else. Not to mention that Hamas is incapable of standing up against Israel (if you look their training videos you'll see how horrible their performance is). Hezbollah is capable of standing up against Israel as long as they are on their own terrain but they have no offensive capabilities. They aren't getting any more socialist, secular maybe but not socialist for sure, they are merely caving in to small LCP demands.

You're joking, right? You're really asking what's the difference between an oppressive, but independent nation to a imperialist US-pawn nation?

[Ivan Jansa]

I don't find either good and to be honest the current Palestinian government seems to be still enough pro-USA to not have my trust. Simply being anti-imperialist and still being oppressive and self-serving is not an excuse.

[Amphictyonis]

I'm anti all organized religion and nationalism. Combine the two and...eww, gross. Israel. Pro human anti Israeli state. Pro human anti US state. Pro human anti catholic/christian church. Pro human anti Islamic fundamentalism. Pro human anti reactionary.

[Rafiq]

Idk about that. I can't really see the Hamas embracing socialism. Not saying it's impossible, but not really likely. I can see the PFLP doing joint-relations with the Hezbollah, but not the Hamas when it comes to socialism.

Also, I've heard from various other people stating that the Hezbollah are embracing Socialism a lot more now. Is there any articles showing this or what?

Perhaps you're right. But maybe in years and years to come, perhaps ten years, Hamas will change it's Ideas a bit.

Currently, no attention at all is given to Hezbollah's Ideal's in the Media, but My grandparents who live in South Lebanon, including many South Lebanese, are stating Hezbollah's views are shifting much more Leftist, and becoming quite Socialist.

The Kataeb Fascist Party in Lebanon is using this against them now.

[Ivan Jansa]

I hope you're right about Hezbollah, I really do because that would be a great boon for us all but they are still too close to oppressive Iranian regime :(

I really don't think Hamas will change though, their leader said that Jews are responsible for the worst evil on this world, like the French and October revolution. That's anything but socialist :rolleyes:

[Rafiq]

I hope you're right about Hezbollah, I really do because that would be a great boon for us all but they are still too close to oppressive Iranian regime :(

I really don't think Hamas will change though, their leader said that Jews are responsible for the worst evil on this world, like the French and October revolution. That's anything but socialist :rolleyes:

Really? When did he say that?

If he did, then he's wrong and should apologize.

Hezbollah isn't going to just cut-ties with the Iranian regime right now, in fact, they aren't willing to cut ties with any of their allies, because they need all the support they can get.

Once they are finished fighting off the American Colony, then they will start to criticize Iran's domestic policy's.

[Ivan Jansa]

I can't post links but if you check their charter sample from Wikipedia you can find the following:

Article 22 The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ...and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.

[~Spectre]

Hezbollah is a bit more open to Socialism as well than the Hamas is. So I'd prefer the Hezbollah over the Hamas. Of course, I'll always truly support the PFLP. :)

Marx would be so proud.

[LeninBalls]

Marx would be so proud.

Is he supposed to be offended by this?

[~Spectre]

Is he supposed to be offended by this?

He's not supposed to be particularly anything'd by it. I'm curious to see if he disagrees, though.

[Obs]

Is he supposed to be offended by this?
Yeah Marx HATES movements you've heard of.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Marx would be so proud.

I believe he would see this as a necessity to support independence from imperialism & colonialism. In which leads to an indirect support, if not direct support, in groups such as the Hezbollah, who have the power to defeat Western-pawns such as Israel.

[Crux]

How did the Africans overcome the Apartheid in South Africa?
The ANC leadership you mean? By making a deal with the old regime, keeping the basic system of oppression intact and getting themselfes rich. Not very different from what the mainstream "anti-zionists" would argue for a "free" palestine. Just take this clue, when have you ever, in the past 20 years or so, heard a mainstream anti-zionist organization, anywhere in their material, even raise the slogan for a socialist palestine?

[The Vegan Marxist]

The ANC leadership you mean? By making a deal with the old regime, keeping the basic system of oppression intact and getting themselfes rich. Not very different from what the mainstream "anti-zionists" would argue for a "free" palestine. Just take this clue, when have you ever, in the past 20 years or so, heard a mainstream anti-zionist organization, anywhere in their material, even raise the slogan for a socialist palestine?

What's more important for the time being - the development of socialism & destruction of Zionism at the same time, or at least the destruction of Zionism as the first step towards socialism? As much as I would love to see the former take place, the latter is more plausible, & the most important issue for the time being.

[Crux]

What's more important for the time being - the development of socialism & destruction of Zionism at the same time, or at least the destruction of Zionism as the first step towards socialism? As much as I would love to see the former take place, the latter is more plausible, & the most important issue for the time being.
Why do you believe it is more plausible? Sure I can envision a South Africa style result for Palestine, the working class get flags, the system is intact and meet the new boss same as the old, i e th bourgeoisie.
I also see, say the next election in sweden as more plausibly leading to either a right wing or a more right wing regime. It use as hell doesn't mean I support it just because it is "plausible".
So really, I don't see how it can be the "most important" for the "time being". Also I believe you are dodging the questions raised by the South Africa example.

[28350]

First of all, this is not a comment on this debate in particular.

I'd just like to say that I don't trust photographs. It's not that I think they're doctored; I do think they capture real events.
However, they do not provide an accurate representation of the entire situation. I can dig up pictures of shining happy people in NYC, but that doesn't mean they represent the overall emotional climate.
What I really trust are statistics. Yes, there are caveats, such as misapplied data, hidden relationships, or even gross inaccuracy (be it accidental or intentional). But in general, statistics will tell you more about a situation than your emotional response to pictures.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I wouldn't call Israel fascist(although it certainly has powerful fascist political forces), but it is without a doubt a colonial settler state- that is, its very foundation is built on the colonization and ethnic cleansing of the land's indigenous population. Besides Israel I can think of only two modern nation-states that have been built this way-South Africa and the United States.

Australia, New Zealand I imagine, Canada, and much of Latin America (think of Evo Morales being the first indigenous President of Bolivia) can be added to that list.

[~Spectre]

I believe he would see this as a necessity to support independence from imperialism & colonialism. In which leads to an indirect support, if not direct support, in groups such as the Hezbollah, who have the power to defeat Western-pawns such as Israel.

I don't think Marx would support religious fundamentalists that have no shot at defeating Israel.

[~Spectre]

And don't get me wrong, supporting resistance is good, the question is what type of resistance. I don't see how anyone can look at the situation and think that the armed groups are going to defeat the Israeli state.

[Adil3tr]

I support jews and a two state solution, but not anything the actually state of Israel or the reactionaries do, like the illegal settlements and the attacks on Palestinians and international volunteers.

[Barry Lyndon]

I'm as anti-Zionist as anyone and am an active member of my local Students of Justice in Palestine chapter.
But I don't understand where some of these leftists get off being apologists for reactionary Islamist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah. They are not in any way progressive, and they sure as hell are not going to defeat Israel in 100 years.
Hamas are bastards, above all to their own people. Read this article-Hamas demolishes homes in Gaza to make way for its own buildings-sound familiar?:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8687974.stm

The only Palestinian political faction I try to support is the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Their Marxist, have deep roots in the Palestinian resistance struggle, and support a secular state, women's rights, and trade unions. That they are besieged at the moment does not mean that we run away from them and embrace right-wing religious nuts who happen to be more "current".

[blake 3:17]

I don't. But so far none of you has given me any actual reasons why Israel should be singled out.

I think this is a very interesting question. Do you want to start a thread on this? Or should I?

[Widerstand]

I think this is a very interesting question. Do you want to start a thread on this? Or should I?

go ahead if you feel like it. be warned though, people WILL call you Zionist, Fascist and Imperialist.

[Comrade B]

Yeah, no.

Give Israel time, and they will kill Millions. They haven't killed enough for you already?

And Israel isn't fueled by hate?

The fascists in Israel are, but the right wingers are just more racist rightwingers, no different than the US Tea Party. You can call them fascist, but their government would never approve genocide. Their military may be violent, cruel, racist, and not give a damn about civilian lives, but it only takes a minority with guns to commit a few attrocities

[Dimentio]

Do you support Zionism?

I am not even going to dignify this troll thread with an answer.

[Comrade B]

It isn't really a troll thread, it is more a discussion of if it is proper to call Israel fascist. Only 5 of 127 said that they support Israel and Zionism, I hope they change their minds

[RadioRaheem84]

Why is this all even an issue? Leftists should not be supportive of the State of Israel.

It's an expansionist State based on a Zionist/Nationalist supremacy ideology. It was established by people who knew full well that their intention was to ethnically cleanse the land free of Palestinians.

The fact that we actively see them do it every day is crazy enough but for leftists to rationally argue that Israel has a right to exist is another thing entirely. The whole reason why the Israelis do not want the Palestinians to return is because they know they would flood in and reclaim the land for themselves, thereby diminishing the State of Israel.

How the hell did the facts get so twisted that some leftists sound more Zionist than even Israeli dissidents?

[Rafiq]

I can't post links but if you check their charter sample from Wikipedia you can find the following:

Article 22 The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ...and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.

Yeah, first of all, Wikipedia has been known to make shit up occasionally.

Second, since the only source is their charter sample, I'm gonna assume it's bullshit.

[Comrade B]

The goal isn't ethnic clensing, it is imperialism, and like all imperialist countries, they are incredibly cruel about it. They also think that they are more deserving of the land than those that live on it, it has been more than once that I have heard people accuse the palistians of not deserving the land because they (according to these people) utilize it fully. The same argument was made for the US privatizing native land during its imperialist expansion. The difference with the US and Israel though, is that the US attempted to fully whipe out races, where as Israel prefers to just force the Palestinians into smaller and smaller land. Palestinians are killed often in this process, but the US directly attempted to kill off other races, where as it is just a side effect of Israel's actions.

[The Vegan Marxist]

I find it amazing how Israel isn't at least globally attacked on its use of apartheid against the Palestinian people. I mean, that is an international crime, is it not?

[Rafiq]

I find it amazing how Israel isn't at least globally attacked on its use of apartheid against the Palestinian people. I mean, that is an international crime, is it not?

Then again, America is the most mass murdering state to ever exist, yet not one crime is held against them.

[Vendetta]

I have no sympathy for the IDF. Whatever weapons are used on them in 'terror' attacks, they brought it on themselves, as far as I'm concerned.

[Thirsty Crow]

T
But now, Israel is the most Fascist colony to exist.

Stop using the term "Fascist". You'll practically wear it out, and it is not appropriate, historically and intellectually, to label Israel "fascist".
Oh, and if you're interested, I voted for the first option.
It is clear as daylight that the Israeli government is pursuing a racist/ethnically supremacist policy. That is disgusting.
However, there is a difference between saying that and saying that "Israel has no right to exist". Yes, there is a huge problem, and I would be happiest if the settler project stopped immediately, if the land was given back to Palestinians and if Israel started paying damages for the decades of terror and war.
This, in my opinion, is a more or less sustainable goal BEFORE any serious possibility of revolution arises.

[blake 3:17]

go ahead if you feel like it. be warned though, people WILL call you Zionist, Fascist and Imperialist.

I think Israel should be singled out so I'm not so worried about that -- more of a concern that the discussion will be poor.

[EvilRedGuy]

Im not even going to read the thread, its a waste of fucking time. You "6" supporters and "3" sympathetic(as currently) fucking disgusts me, how sick can you become? :scared: Its like supporting the europeans attack on other natives, american natives, australian natives, africa, and now middle east, fucking colonialist militarist fascist imperialists.


PS- Anti-germans are not leftists. At all.

[Sasha]

what zionism are we talking about, 30's labour zionism? yup i'm sympathetic... current setler zionism? not at all....
people who dont know what they are talking about shouldnt open threads

[The Vegan Marxist]

Stop using the term "Fascist". You'll practically wear it out, and it is not appropriate, historically and intellectually, to label Israel "fascist".
Oh, and if you're interested, I voted for the first option.
It is clear as daylight that the Israeli government is pursuing a racist/ethnically supremacist policy. That is disgusting.
However, there is a difference between saying that and saying that "Israel has no right to exist". Yes, there is a huge problem, and I would be happiest if the settler project stopped immediately, if the land was given back to Palestinians and if Israel started paying damages for the decades of terror and war.
This, in my opinion, is a more or less sustainable goal BEFORE any serious possibility of revolution arises.

Israel was created through colonial expansionism in the first place! What right does it have to continue to exist?

Also, it's not right to call what happens in Israel fascist? That's laughable. In 2009, a law was passed in Israel where they made it a crime punishable by up to three years in prison to commemorate al-Nakba - which was the forced dispossession of the Palestinian people. Now, according to Hajo Meyer, who was an anti-Zionist Jew and a survivor of the Auschwitz concentration camp, meaning he faced fascism face-to-face, he stated:


"It is so racist, so dreadful. I am at a lost for words. It is an expression of what we already know. [The Israeli Nakba commemoration organization] Zochrot was founded to counteract Israeli efforts to wipe out the marks that are a reminder of Palestinian life. To forbid Palestinians to publicly commemorate the Nakba ... they cannot act in a more Nazi-like, fascist way. Maybe it will help to awaken the world."

(Hajo Meyer, interview by Adri Nieuwhof, "Auschwitz survivor: 'I can identify with Palestinian youth'," Electronic Intifada, June 2, 2009.)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm not sure that Zionism, in the eyes of most of its supporters, believes in the ethnic supremacy of its people. I say this having known many Zionists. What can be said is that their views are reactionary, often based on what is anathema to fact - gossip, rumour and prejudice.

I am not of the school, however, that says Zionism = Fascism. I am not a particular fan of the tendency of the far-left to simply ascribe the word 'Fascist' to more or less anything they don't like. Apparently, Capitalism is Fascist. Israeli Jews are Fascist. Barack Obama is Fascist. Hell, even National Socialists are SOMETIMES Fascist.

But, back to the serious point here. We should oppose Zionism because it is Nationalist, because it is wrong in moral terms and has led to a negative situation, outcome-wise, with regards to the plight of the Palestinians and those Israeli-Arabs who remain in the land of Zionism.

The problem with ascribing Zionism as Fascism (I separate this from any analysis of Israel - as a state it could indeed be labelled proto-Fascist, but when I talk about Zionism I talk about it as an ideology and about its supporters, not about its praxis-results in terms of the State of Israel) is that we then get torn into this talk of the 'destruction of Israel', which, whilst not wrong on its own, often leads to quasi-Arab Nationalistic talk and relationships being formed with groups such as Hamas, Hesbollah and so on, something which is not good for us, not good for the oppressed Palestinians and will go no way to sorting out the Middle-East conflict.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Just want to make clear that when the (majority) left talks about hating Israel, its about the regime and its forces, not the israeli working class and dont forget that not all israelians are to happy about ehat the regime does. The radical football ultra-group Haploe is worth cheking out.

To show simmilarities betwen todays Israel and the Third Reich, is not wrong both states are builded around the idea of one ethnicity being supreme, that some people tend to just belong to certain areas just like the nazis Blut und Boden.
Why is the left so fixed with Israel? An other user wroten in a other thread that this is one region where things could be changed over night, today Israel is a modern industrialized nation, while just a couple of miles away in Palestine they are living a third world life, where manny palestinians are working in israeli factories for low wages and are being harrased and abused in the checkpoints they have to go through. And this could be ended real fast.

The wars against Lebanon have ben very strangly forgiven by the west, puppet?

[Thirsty Crow]

Israel was created through colonial expansionism in the first place! What right does it have to continue to exist? There are several points here:
1) Learn to read. I haven't stated that "israel has the right to exist". I'm a communist, and in my opinion, none of the existing states "has a right to exist". Moreover, the expression "a country has a right to exist" reeks of natural rights concept, transposed to an entire nation-state.

2) Why the hell can't I read an argument in favour of denying the right of US to exist?

3) Yes, Israel was created through colonial expansionism, and I don't see a reason why the new Palestinian state wouldn't be created through "reverse expansionism" - giving the land back to the Palestinians.


Also, it's not right to call what happens in Israel fascist? That's laughable. Learn what fascism is, please. It's laughable that historical terms are being tossed around without any knowledge of history whatsoever.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

7. I would have opposed Fascist Italy, because they were Fascist. Of course a Zionist wouldn't understand that.

This metaphor, or ones like it, is brought up from time to time and I have to say I dislike it. Opposing Mussolinni was never brought to the level of driving italians into the sea.

Also, personally I have a distaste for the leftist hatred of Israel. Yes, Israel has disgusting attributes, but the reaction to several citizens of Israel is on a completely other scale than other issues. For example, a story of a corporation dumping millions of barrels of toxic waste into populated areas in the third world is sometimes mentioned on sites like this one (and their are indeed many lefties who inform others of activities like that), but it draws nowhere near the enthusiasm of bashing Israel. And it's not just bashing, but calling for the destruction of Israel, removal of israelis, or just some vision of arabs getting the land back and the icky details are left out.

And yet, Israel exists and is going to exist, or there is going to be nuclear war. It really boils down to that. The jews are not leaving, and people who are unwilling to accept that are often times obstacles to a long term peace. Furthermore, Israel is content with the level of security they have. Yes, they make life hard for palestinians, humiliate palestinians daily, deny palestinians a right to their heritage, launch pr the world over denying palestinian legitimacy, and have killed many palestinians. They also never had to make any real concessions to the Palestinians who, for good or ill, decided that jihad and armed resistance were the best methods of resisting Israel. But what they failed to realize, like I mentioned above, is that it's not an occupation in the sense of the US occupation of Iraq. The jews are not leaving, questions about the right of the state of Israel are irrelevant at this point. Unless of course, you have access to nuclear weapons and are willing to sacrifice millions of lives when Israel retaliates.

Peaceful civil disobediance is, in my opinion, the only way forward for Palestinian resistance, with a clear goal of integration and freedom within Israel/Palestine. It's not as sexy or romantic, but what did more for international opinion --which actually got people to think about Israels blockade of Gaza-- The sporadic rocket attacks Hamas launched from Gaza or Turkey sending a boat loaded with aid and instructions not to shoot back?

[Barry Lyndon]

This metaphor, or ones like it, is brought up from time to time and I have to say I dislike it. Opposing Mussolinni was never brought to the level of driving italians into the sea.

Also, personally I have a distaste for the leftist hatred of Israel. Yes, Israel has disgusting attributes, but the reaction to several citizens of Israel is on a completely other scale than other issues. For example, a story of a corporation dumping millions of barrels of toxic waste into populated areas in the third world is sometimes mentioned on sites like this one (and their are indeed many lefties who inform others of activities like that), but it draws nowhere near the enthusiasm of bashing Israel. And it's not just bashing, but calling for the destruction of Israel, removal of israelis, or just some vision of arabs getting the land back and the icky details are left out.

And yet, Israel exists and is going to exist, or there is going to be nuclear war. It really boils down to that. The jews are not leaving, and people who are unwilling to accept that are often times obstacles to a long term peace. Furthermore, Israel is content with the level of security they have. Yes, they make life hard for palestinians, humiliate palestinians daily, deny palestinians a right to their heritage, launch pr the world over denying palestinian legitimacy, and have killed many palestinians. They also never had to make any real concessions to the Palestinians who, for good or ill, decided that jihad and armed resistance were the best methods of resisting Israel. But what they failed to realize, like I mentioned above, is that it's not an occupation in the sense of the US occupation of Iraq. The jews are not leaving, questions about the right of the state of Israel are irrelevant at this point. Unless of course, you have access to nuclear weapons and are willing to sacrifice millions of lives when Israel retaliates.

Peaceful civil disobediance is, in my opinion, the only way forward for Palestinian resistance, with a clear goal of integration and freedom within Israel/Palestine. It's not as sexy or romantic, but what did more for international opinion --which actually got people to think about Israels blockade of Gaza-- The sporadic rocket attacks Hamas launched from Gaza or Turkey sending a boat loaded with aid and instructions not to shoot back?

I agree with much of what you say, and I am someone who has been active in support of the Palestinian cause for many years.

I'm not sure that non-violence is going to entirely work, however. Arundhati Roy noted that non-violence is a tactic that needs an audience. If there are not cameras or if the footage never reaches the rest of the world, then the non-violence is unable to lead to any effective change. The Palestinians tried a massive campaign of civil disobedience in the first Intifada from 1987-91, and they were ignored, basically because non-violent Arabs don't make news. Just four years ago, Palestinians in Gaza gathered in large numbers around houses targeted for Israeli air strikes as human shields. They were instantly condemned by bourgeois human rights groups like Human Rights Watch as 'war criminals'- a logic that would make Gandhi and MLK also war criminals. The Palestinians are damned if they use violence to resist occupation, and damned if they don't.

The problem is that the Palestinians don't have the advantage of overwhelming numbers that the Indians living under British occupation did, nor they do they have a rival superpower making a international issue out of their plight as a propaganda weapon, like the USSR did about the oppression of blacks in the United States.

This obsessive focus on Israel, as you pointed out, is also obscuring a major obstacle to Palestinian liberation-the surrounding Arab regimes. The only thing that will tip the balance of power is the overthrow of the corrupt oligarchies which dominate the Middle East that are puppets of US imperialism. As one Egyptian friend of mine pointed out, Israel has become the 'eternal excuse' for these Arab regimes continued existence- they can always divert attention from the rampant poverty, corruption, and police state repression in their societies by ranting about 'Zionism', which they never do a damn thing about because their feeding from the same hand that feeds Israel.

[Thirsty Crow]

...or just some vision of arabs getting the land back and the icky details are left out.

Somehow I feel like this also addresses me.
Just to get things clear: I'm digusted with violence, and I didn't imply that the reparation of damages (including the return of the land) should take a form of hostility towards Israeli people. What I did wish to imply (maybe not successfully) was that a mutual agreement should be reached, alongside the supervision of United Nations (yeah yeah, I know how does this organization function; however, I feel that there should be a third party involved in this matter).
No forced dislocations, no violent attacks.
However, that does not mean that I oppose violence on behalf of the Palestinians, now.

[human strike]

Zionism is racism.

[lucasstalin]

Someone said Zionism = Racism, because they believe in ethnic supremacy. So that means islam = racism, because they believe in ethnic supremacy. Lets face it, many of the issues between Israel and Palestine are due to the religious differences.
For info. Palestine the place and the Palestinians are a non-entity anyway. A mere convenient excuse to point the finger for Israels existance.
If we are talking about rights to the land. The Jews were around thousands of years BC and inhabited this area. However, due to Persian and Ottoman (islamic) rule etc, they were run out of the area. This in islamic terms then becomes 'Sacred Land' and if ever sacred land is lost, islamists are instructed to commit jihad to return this land to islamic dominance. I think this fact is missed amongst many of you. So returning to the existance of Israel, the Jews were commissioned a relatively speaking, small amount of land for inhabitation in the middle east. However, this is UNACCEPTABLE to the islamic communities who lived in this territory and the islamic nations residing closeby, that is why we see the emergence of terror organisations such as Hezbollah and Hamas amongst others to wage the jihad on Israel to return the land to islamic dominance. No Equality issues coming from the islamic camp, no, lets share territory, as the Israelis currently do. Please do not argue that is not the case, because the Israelis even allow Sharia to be practised within their borders.
Now, to expel the myth that Israel is Fascist (please) and committing genocide on Palestinians. Comments made by people who have no idea of national security and how it works, yet take for granted the freedoms it provides every day of their lives. The Provocateurs in this conflict are and always have been the islamic communities who see the existance of Israel an insult to their dominance. So as a simple example. Islamic lands and terror organisations attack Israeli settlements (and as we are aware, they don't care who they kill) Israel retaliates, invariably the islamic cowards hide in residential areas, schools, hospitals, mosques, etc etc etc, and sometimes there is collateral damage. There is no honour amongst the islamic provocateurs, no lets wage war, man on man, army on army, uniform versus uniform. No, they are too cowardly for that. So the Israeli defences for the safety of its own citizens has to do the best it can in near impossible circumstances. The other alternative, is to relentlessly take attack after attack by the islamists and then not retaliate incase of collateral damage. Which ever way you slice it, this is tantamount to surrender and islamic dominance resumes.
Israel has the fascist reputation?? and the middle eastern islamic regimes do not. Can anyone explain this to me? Surely the left, should not have a view on this because it could be argued both religious regimes are as bad as each other. There is no justification to support islamic regimes over Israel without being a total HYPOCRITE.

[RadioRaheem84]

Bullshit. Utter Bullshit.

The level of apologizing for Israel has reached new heights among leftists.

No idea on national security? What kind of language is this?

The amount of trolls we've been receiving is amazing as of late.


"Lets face it, many of the issues between Israel and Palestine are due to the religious differences. "

Oh god, I cannot believe how much of this new atheism crap has penetrated discourse on anything political at all. The folly of idealist thinking.

[Barry Lyndon]

Someone said Zionism = Racism, because they believe in ethnic supremacy. So that means islam = racism, because they believe in ethnic supremacy. Lets face it, many of the issues between Israel and Palestine are due to the religious differences.
For info. Palestine the place and the Palestinians are a non-entity anyway. A mere convenient excuse to point the finger for Israels existance.
If we are talking about rights to the land. The Jews were around thousands of years BC and inhabited this area. However, due to Persian and Ottoman (islamic) rule etc, they were run out of the area. This in islamic terms then becomes 'Sacred Land' and if ever sacred land is lost, islamists are instructed to commit jihad to return this land to islamic dominance. I think this fact is missed amongst many of you. So returning to the existance of Israel, the Jews were commissioned a relatively speaking, small amount of land for inhabitation in the middle east. However, this is UNACCEPTABLE to the islamic communities who lived in this territory and the islamic nations residing closeby, that is why we see the emergence of terror organisations such as Hezbollah and Hamas amongst others to wage the jihad on Israel to return the land to islamic dominance. No Equality issues coming from the islamic camp, no, lets share territory, as the Israelis currently do. Please do not argue that is not the case, because the Israelis even allow Sharia to be practised within their borders.
Now, to expel the myth that Israel is Fascist (please) and committing genocide on Palestinians. Comments made by people who have no idea of national security and how it works, yet take for granted the freedoms it provides every day of their lives. The Provocateurs in this conflict are and always have been the islamic communities who see the existance of Israel an insult to their dominance. So as a simple example. Islamic lands and terror organisations attack Israeli settlements (and as we are aware, they don't care who they kill) Israel retaliates, invariably the islamic cowards hide in residential areas, schools, hospitals, mosques, etc etc etc, and sometimes there is collateral damage. There is no honour amongst the islamic provocateurs, no lets wage war, man on man, army on army, uniform versus uniform. No, they are too cowardly for that. So the Israeli defences for the safety of its own citizens has to do the best it can in near impossible circumstances. The other alternative, is to relentlessly take attack after attack by the islamists and then not retaliate incase of collateral damage. Which ever way you slice it, this is tantamount to surrender and islamic dominance resumes.
Israel has the fascist reputation?? and the middle eastern islamic regimes do not. Can anyone explain this to me? Surely the left, should not have a view on this because it could be argued both religious regimes are as bad as each other. There is no justification to support islamic regimes over Israel without being a total HYPOCRITE.

1. No one here is supporting 'islamic regimes over Israel'. Islamic fundamentalists are as much an enemy of any leftist as Zionists are.

2. If you knew anything about Middle East history, you would know that Jews and Muslims lived peacefully side by side in Palestine and elsewhere in the Arab world for many centuries-it is only in the 20th century that relations got bad for political reasons. My Iraqi grandfather had Jewish neighbors and celebrated religious holidays with them in the 1940's.
This notion that Jews and Muslims inherently hate each other is total rubbish.

3. The rest is just parroted Israeli propaganda. Plenty of IDF soldiers have come forth and testified that Israeli forces routinely use massive amounts of firepower on heavily populated Arab civilian areas with little or no provocation from the Palestinians. Even if there are some 'militants' shooting at them, so what? The Israelis are occupying their country!

[Crux]

Do you support Zionism?
Yes anyone who isn't a Mossad operative gets restricted on revleft. I thought that was obvious.

[Cirno(9)]

So that means islam = racism, because they believe in ethnic supremacy.
Like to open strong with the stupidity eh?
Funfact: There are Muslims of every race.



Lets face it, many of the issues between Israel and Palestine are due to the religious differences.

Because apart from religion the Israelis and Palestinians are alike in every aspect of language, culture, physical appearence etc.



For info. Palestine the place and the Palestinians are a non-entity anyway. A mere convenient excuse to point the finger for Israels existance.

So if someone says they're Palestinian they're lying or something?

If we are talking about rights to the land. The Jews were around thousands of years BC and inhabited this area. However, due to Persian and Ottoman (islamic) rule etc, they were run out of the area. This in islamic terms then becomes 'Sacred Land' and if ever sacred land is lost, islamists are instructed to commit jihad to return this land to islamic dominance. I think this fact is missed amongst many of you.
Holy shit I hope you're one of those Christian Zionists that think having Jews rule the Holy Land is the magic button for brining Jesus back because if you're Jewish this just shows a shocking ignorance of your own culture's history.
The Romans were the ones that expelled the Jews from Israel, not the Muslims. By the time the Muslims ruled the region it was already mostly Christian.
Also the Persians last invasion of the region occured when they were still Zoroastrian and the Ottomans conquered it from other Muslims in the 1500's.
Protip: If you're going to cite history to support your case, make sure you're getting your information from actual sources and not your own overactive imagination.


So returning to the existance of Israel, the Jews were commissioned a relatively speaking, small amount of land for inhabitation in the middle east. However, this is UNACCEPTABLE to the islamic communities who lived in this territory and the islamic nations residing closeby, that is why we see the emergence of terror organisations such as Hezbollah and Hamas amongst others to wage the jihad on Israel to return the land to islamic dominance. No Equality issues coming from the islamic camp, no, lets share territory, as the Israelis currently do. Please do not argue that is not the case, because the Israelis even allow Sharia to be practised within their borders.
And apartheid South Africa made up a relatively speaking, small amont of the land of Africa. As a matter of fact, the white South Africans didn't even allocate all of the land to themselves and reserved a roughly a tenth of the land in South Africa it for blacks "homelands"



Now, to expel the myth that Israel is Fascist (please) and committing genocide on Palestinians. Comments made by people who have no idea of national security and how it works, yet take for granted the freedoms it provides every day of their lives. The Provocateurs in this conflict are and always have been the islamic communities who see the existance of Israel an insult to their dominance.
Yeah, funny thing that people tend to be provoked when other people come in and try to push them off their homeland. Its like those ungrateful Native American provacteurs that were for whatever reason hostile to the United States encroaching on where they lived.


So as a simple example. Islamic lands and terror organisations attack Israeli settlements
Notice the word "settlement". A "settlement" implies that the group of people "settling" an area did not live there previously. In this instance could it be because there were other people there before the Israelies?


(and as we are aware, they don't care who they kill) Israel retaliates, invariably the islamic cowards hide in residential areas, schools, hospitals, mosques, etc etc etc, and sometimes there is collateral damage. There is no honour amongst the islamic provocateurs, no lets wage war, man on man, army on army, uniform versus uniform.
Yeah because, you know, the Palestinians totally have tanks, bombers, cruise missiles, assault vehicles and heavy artillery.
If what you want is a mano a mano pitched battle then would you suggest that Israel could maybe kindly donate some weaponry then?
Now you've already demonstrated that your knowledge of Jewish history is minimal but the Jewish revolts against various pagan rulers took the form of gurrillea warfare. I'd ask if you think that Judas Maccabees was a coward for using gurrillea warfare but you probably don't know who that is.



No, they are too cowardly for that. So the Israeli defences for the safety of its own citizens has to do the best it can in near impossible circumstances. The other alternative, is to relentlessly take attack after attack by the islamists and then not retaliate incase of collateral damage. Which ever way you slice it, this is tantamount to surrender and islamic dominance resumes.

I can't post links because my post count isn't high enough so just google "israeli palestinian death ratio" and go to the link from the UN. And just look at it.

So Israeli civilians that are killed are innocent victims and Palestinians are "collateral damage"?
I suppose its easier to justify the death of innocent people if you try to phrase it in such a way that their humanity isn't an issue.


Israel has the fascist reputation?? and the middle eastern islamic regimes do not. Can anyone explain this to me?
I explain it by stating that many Islamic nations do have a reputation for being "fascist" such as Iran or Syra.
Dur

[blake 3:17]

As a preface, I think everyone on this thread should remember that Hamas was elected. That was unfortunate but it was in a situation forced on the Palestinian people. The treatment of the Palestinians in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait, etc. has been unacceptable.

For those of us in the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand we should spend a while learning and acting against the racist genocides on which our countries are founded.



Someone said Zionism = Racism, because they believe in ethnic supremacy

Zionism is a racist ideology.


Israel has the fascist reputation?? and the middle eastern islamic regimes do not. Can anyone explain this to me? Surely the left, should not have a view on this because it could be argued both religious regimes are as bad as each other. There is no justification to support islamic regimes over Israel without being a total HYPOCRITE.

I wouldn't call Israel fascist. Saudi Arabia is fascist and has the same big buddy as Israel and Egypt. Israel and Iran exhibit elements of fascism, but they are multi-party democracies of a limited sort. I wouldn`t support any Western military intervention in the region -- it only kills innocents and empowers the worst on all sides.

I don't see a whole lot of agologists for Islamic reaction here or on the Left. There are folks here and there, and we do have very different takes on Iran in particular. National oppressions have pushed people in the region to embrace dogmatic religion. A group/party/para-state organization like Hezbollah should not be romanticised at all. As I understand it, it contains many different elements -- socialists in the Middle East are more aware of the nuances. One of the socialists I trust on this has spoken publicly that he would deal with certain elements of Hezbollah and will have nothing to do with others due to the difference in attitudes and practices in regards to gender and sexuality.

In the 1970s the PLO put forward the position of a one state secular democratic solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I believe it the sanest response and one that will involve compromise on both sides. The Palestinians should not be expected to make anymore concessions to the Israelis.

[Barry Lyndon]

I don't see a whole lot of agologists for Islamic reaction here or on the Left. There are folks here and there, and we do have very different takes on Iran in particular. National oppressions have pushed people in the region to embrace dogmatic religion. A group/party/para-state organization like Hezbollah should not be romanticised at all. As I understand it, it contains many different elements -- socialists in the Middle East are more aware of the nuances. One of the socialists I trust on this has spoken publicly that he would deal with certain elements of Hezbollah and will have nothing to do with others due to the difference in attitudes and practices in regards to gender and sexuality.

I have the sneaking feeling that many leftists with pro-Zionist inclinations, from groups like Platypus to crude Zionist propagandists like the fellow above, intentionally exaggerate the extent and influence of 'Islamist apologists' on the Left in order to make defending Israel supposedly from a socialist perspective seem like a noble and courageous undertaking.

[EvilRedGuy]

I've heard that Palestine was named by the Palestinians who come from the word "Palesto" which was a tribe from Crete, and they were there since Stone Age, this are still the modern Palestinian people. Allso jews and arabs are the same ethnicity, just different religion. Zionism may not be fascist, but its definetly militarist and colonialist.

[Notorio]

Germany: Ayran Nationalism
Israel: Jewish Nationalism.

Germany: Nazi Fascism
Israel: Zionist Fascism

Germany: Oppression of minority's
Israel: Oppression of Blacks, Palestinians ect.

Germany: Justified killing Jews "Because they are dirty, they are a threat to our nation and should leave."
Israel: Must I explain?

Toppled with some Economic similarity's.



Ugghhh....This flag represents the two things i dislike most in this world...Nazi's and Zionism!

Albeit...It's not hard to see the resemblances between Nazi Germany and Zionist Izrael. Except for the fact that the Nazi's seemed to be a lot better at it.

The Zionists, seriously beleive, that they are worth more than "ordinary" pepople, that a "Jewish liver is worth more than a non-jewish liver". I quote many pro-zionists here, including Netanuahu. It is nessecary to note that Zionist Jews and Druze beleive this. By no means should we discriminate against all jews. The Nazi's and their "Aryan" supremacy, wasn't a whole lot different.

What shits me is that the Izraeli labor party is a part of socialist international...Not that they've been anything but completely usesless, (bar some minor feats) but you'd think they'd revoke the membership of such a party.

[9]

Do people actually think that comparing Zionism to Nazism helps their case? Because it doesn't; it just makes you seem like you're using emotionalism to compensate for your complete lack of an actual argument. And not only that, it plays directly into this entire narrative of 'the State of Israel' as 'the Victim of Nazism', which is the entire reason Zionists are so massively effective in portraying the state of Israel as the victim to begin with.

[RadioRaheem84]

It's not Nazism.

It's definitely equivalent to Christian Manifest Destiny City on a Hill Puritan crap we have in the States.

We're just witnessing what the Native Americans went through.

End Colonialism, End Zionism

[Widerstand]

Albeit...It's not hard to see the resemblances between Nazi Germany and Zionist Izrael. Except for the fact that the Nazi's seemed to be a lot better at it.

It's really not hard when you exaggerate what Israel does and/or play down what Nazi Germany did, no.

[9]

It's really not hard when you exaggerate what Israel does and/or play down what Nazi Germany did, no.

I think its less about "exaggerat[ing] what Israel does" and "play[ing] down what Nazi Germany did", and more about people being so totally inundated with the whole 'WWII Triumph of Western Democracy' ideology that they're totally unable to analyze any instance of violent oppression without resorting to some sort of allusion to "NAZISM!!!!1 SONS OF DARKNESS!!!1"

[Notorio]

It's really not hard when you exaggerate what Israel does and/or play down what Nazi Germany did, no.

I am not doing either. They were/are both supremist states, they were/are committing genocide, they were/are displacing people from their land.

The similarites propose an oppositional irony, they (the zionists) in retrospect, are no better than Nazi germany.

On a universall perspective, is it really all that different? Lets Keep in mind that the Holocaust itself was the defining reason why britain gave palestinian land under their control to Izrael.

Did you hear about that story a month or so back, an IDF soldier shot a 11 year old girl 17 times, the IDF soldier claimed he was following military procedure and "confirming the kill" he also claimed that the girl may have had a bomb in what was her schoolbag.

It is difficult to exaggerate what izrael does, their crimes are most heinous.

[Notorio]

'the State of Israel' as 'the Victim of Nazism'.

You know as well as i do that's a bunch of BS!

As you said, it's an excusr (and a shallow one at that) to continue their state. I am simply pointing out the similarities, so that Zionists themselves will have the displeasure of facing the similiarites.

You are correct by saying "a complete lack of argument" What they do is obvious. and it's been said many times before by other memebers.

[9]

I am simply pointing out the similarities, so that Zionists themselves will have the displeasure of facing the similiarites.
I think maybe you're overestimating the persuasiveness of your argument.

[Notorio]

I think its less about "exaggerat[ing] what Israel does" and "play[ing] down what Nazi Germany did", and more about people being so totally inundated with the whole 'WWII Triumph of Western Democracy' ideology that they're totally unable to analyze any instance of violent oppression without resorting to some sort of allusion to "NAZISM!!!!1 SONS OF DARKNESS!!!1"


I think maybe you're overestimating the persuasiveness of your argument.

Is it plausible that you are doing the same?

[Reznov]

It is unavoidable that Israel will be overthrown by Hezbollah or Hamas, and their coalition groups (LCP, PFLP).

For instance, It is possible that, if Hezbollah crushes the Zionist Regime, a Socialist movement would take over control of the nation.

Hezbollah and Hamas would just be taking down Israel militarily.

Then the Palestinian, Jewish, Workers will decide what they want.

I'm sure they prefer one controlled by the Palestinians and Jews.


Though I wonder why you only focus on "Why we shouldn't support Hamas or Hezbollah", rather then the real problem, which is "How can the Palestinian people be free".


The Zionist regime will collapse, it's only a matter of time.

The question is not If, the question is how to react.

Can I ask you some questions?

1) So the Palestinians and Hezbollah and Hamas are all of a sudden just going to get along and not mind each other after decades of constant fighting between the groups? Sorry, that seems a little way to optimistic.

2) What makes you so positive that Israel will fall? They said the same thing about America, but its still here.

[9]

Is it plausible that you are doing the same?
No. I have actually debated with Zionists, and I do it fairly regularly. Clearly you never have, since you seem to think that basically saying "Zionism is NAZISM!!!1" is going to convince any of them, or that you're going to last two seconds without being shouted down as an "anti-Semite".

[Notorio]

No. I have actually debated with Zionists, and I do it fairly regularly. Clearly you never have, since you seem to think that basically saying "Zionism is NAZISM!!!1" is going to convince any of them, or that you're going to last two seconds without being shouted down as an "anti-Semite".

I could trust a stalinist to be so dismissive. I am curious as to how you are to make such a certain assesment that i have "never debated with zionists"

If you (i am using you as a general term, i am not directly reffering to you) were sympathetic for the people of palestine and their troubles, you would realize, that with a zionist, there usually isn't much to debate about.

I am also curious to how my posts made you conclude that i was inferring "NAZISM IS ZIONISM" it is not the case, and it is not what i implied.

Lastly, i've lasted my whole life without being "shouted down" as an anti semite. Seing that i have many friends whom are jewish, and many of them i protest with against the state of israel.

They, in fact, would probably be offended if you called me an anti-semite.

I do digress, my view on the subject is biased, as are my jewish friends. We share a common motivation; We Greatly dislike zionism, i could even say we hate it. But considering what izrael have been doing, you can judge whether that is just or not.

[9]

I could trust a stalinist to be so dismissive.:D Its ironic Stalinism; I'm not a Stalinist.


I am curious as to how you are to make such a certain assesment that i have "never debated with zionists"Because you said this:
I am simply pointing out the similarities, so that Zionists themselves will have the displeasure of facing the similiarites.Zionists, of course, won't have the displeasure of facing the similarities because a) you've done a very poor job demonstrating that they actually are similar, and b) find me a single Zionist who will actually listen to an argument that consists of comparing them with Nazis.



Lastly, i've lasted my whole life without being "shouted down" as an anti semiteWell, yeah, this really goes back to the previous point.



Seing that i have many friends whom are jewish, and many of them i protest with against the state of israel.I have no idea what this has to do with anything?



They, in fact, would probably be offended if you called me an anti-semite.I'm not calling you an anti-Semite. Zionists, however, will call you an anti-Semite, as most of them don't make a distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, and they will call your Jewish friends anti-Semites too.


I do digress, my view on the subject is biased, as are my jewish friends. We share a common motivation; We Greatly dislike zionism, i could even say we hate it. But considering what izrael have been doing, you can judge whether that is just or not.To be honest, this is the most pointlessly confusing exchange. I hate Zionism. That doesn't mean I'm going to agree with really bad arguments simply because "anti-Zionists" are making them; on the contrary, I find them embarrassing.

[Notorio]

:D Its ironic Stalinism; I'm not a Stalinist.

I wasn't aware of any irony in stalinism


To be honest, this is the most pointlessly confusing exchange. I hate Zionism. That doesn't mean I'm going to agree with really bad arguments simply because "anti-Zionists" are making them; on the contrary, I find them embarrassing.

How can a Zionist, and a Palestinian emancipation activist share a debate when the two are so diametrically opposed? Unless you share a sympathetic or neutral viewpoint, it is near impoossible, i've still tried this however with little succes, and little was neccesary, i neither learned ANYTHING or gained any perspective. I only became frustrated.

I don't wish to speak with Zionists, frankly, i've hated every single one i've met.

You may feel free to think it is a really bad argument. I feel there are similarites there. If you hate Zionists, i personally don't see why you'd want to argue with a negative comparison.

But i guess that's where You and I must agree to disagree!

[MellowViper]

I didn't answer any of them, because I'm pro-Israel, as well as Palestine. Also, Zionism was historically a pan-national and socialist movement to unite all workers of the Levant.

[Barry Lyndon]

I don't think comparing Israel with the Nazis is a very helpful line of debate. Although their are some parallels, a Zionist or Zionist apologist could seize on that comparison and use it to instantly dismiss or derail your entire argument into whether Zionism=Nazism.

Focus on Israel's horrendous human rights record, your on solid ground there and no reasonable person can dispute that.

If you must use a historical parallel, apartheid South Africa is a much better one IMHO. Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu have themselves remarked that the situation of Palestinians in the occupied territories is just as bad and in some ways worse then was under apartheid- and they would be in a position to make such a comparison.

[Notorio]

I don't think comparing Israel with the Nazis is a very helpful line of debate. Although their are some parallels, a Zionist or Zionist apologist could seize on that comparison and use it to instantly dismiss or derail your entire argument into whether Zionism=Nazism.

Focus on Israel's horrendous human rights record, your on solid ground there and no reasonable person can dispute that.

If you must use a historical parallel, apartheid South Africa is a much better one IMHO. Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu have themselves remarked that the situation of Palestinians in the occupied territories is just as bad and in some ways worse then was under apartheid- and they would be in a position to make such a comparison.

Well said. In that instance, should i be debating with a Zionist (see previous posts to my thaughts and experiences with them) and my conversation about the differences to Nazism is derailed, that's when you could use the human rights issue, apartheid, Nakbha catastrophe etc.

The main reason i use it, and others i may assume, is because it relays the severity and hatred that a lot of people have with zionist apartheid.

[Widerstand]

I am not doing either. They were/are both supremist states, they were/are committing genocide, they were/are displacing people from their land.

The similarites propose an oppositional irony, they (the zionists) in retrospect, are no better than Nazi germany.

On a universall perspective, is it really all that different? Lets Keep in mind that the Holocaust itself was the defining reason why britain gave palestinian land under their control to Izrael.

Did you hear about that story a month or so back, an IDF soldier shot a 11 year old girl 17 times, the IDF soldier claimed he was following military procedure and "confirming the kill" he also claimed that the girl may have had a bomb in what was her schoolbag.

It is difficult to exaggerate what izrael does, their crimes are most heinous.

As much as I oppose shooting a 11yo girl, comparing it to the systematic extermination of roughly six million people is absurd.

[Notorio]

As much as I oppose shooting a 11yo girl, comparing it to the systematic extermination of roughly six million people is absurd.

Since when was i comparing? i was simply pointing out one of the innumerous war crimes that have been commited by zionist israel

Also, they're not exterminating all of them, they have a rediculous "plan" involves 4.5 million palestinians in an area not much bigger than monaco.

[Widerstand]

Since when was i comparing? i was simply pointing out one of the innumerous war crimes that have been commited by zionist israel

Also, they're not exterminating all of them, they have a rediculous "plan" involves 4.5 million palestinians in an area not much bigger than monaco.

Given the context in which you brought it up, that story sounded as an argument for Israel's Naziism.

[black magick hustla]

equating zionism to nazism seems like trolling. idk i dont really know how to argue against zionism because when i meet a jewish person i immediately avoid talking about israel

[RadioRaheem84]

I see the issue as akin to South African Apartheid only much worse.

[MellowViper]

equating zionism to nazism seems like trolling. idk i dont really know how to argue against zionism because when i meet a jewish person i immediately avoid talking about israel

I agree. I think its comparable to Apartheid in South Africa, but comparing it to Nazism is disgusting and undermines the crimes of the holocaust.Yes, settlements are very bad, and I hope they stop, but they aren't systematically killing Palestinians. I still have hope for Israel. Really both groups have been shat on, historically. They're much better off uniting into one state as opposed to splitting into two separate countries on one sided terms. The early Zionists used to get along perfectly fine with the Muslim population. I'm sure they can do it again in the future.

[Rafiq]

Can I ask you some questions?

1) So the Palestinians and Hezbollah and Hamas are all of a sudden just going to get along and not mind each other after decades of constant fighting between the groups? Sorry, that seems a little way to optimistic.

2) What makes you so positive that Israel will fall? They said the same thing about America, but its still here.

No of course not, but the mainstream groups are already militarily unified. (LCP, PLFP, Hamas, Hezbollah).

2. The Israeli Regime will fall just as all Racist Regimes fall. The Palestinians will outnumber the Israelis. The Zionist Regime will have to resort to more ethnic cleansing.

[RadioRaheem84]

Does it offend people that some compare the Israeli Army to Nazis?

Is so, why does it? Do mere numbers have to factor when comparing brutality?

And why do the Nazis share some special place in the level of brutality unheard of since their demise?

If people feel that the brutality in Palestine is borderline fascism, then let them think so.

I think all the bickering about it being compared to Nazism is just some being offended about Israel being put on blast to that level.

Why is Israel such a sensitive subject? It's a racist, apartheid state with a leadership that is religiously fundamentalist and imperialist.

[WeAreReborn]

I agree. I think its comparable to Apartheid in South Africa, but comparing it to Nazism is disgusting and undermines the crimes of the holocaust.Yes, settlements are very bad, and I hope they stop, but they aren't systematically killing Palestinians. I still have hope for Israel. Really both groups have been shat on, historically. They're much better off uniting into one state as opposed to splitting into two separate countries on one sided terms. The early Zionists used to get along perfectly fine with the Muslim population. I'm sure they can do it again in the future.
How is that undermining the crimes? You are using it as a negative term used to describe horrors and brutality. Especially since American propaganda make them look like the good guys. It is disgusting, as was the Nazi regime so why can't you compare them in terms of brutality? You can easily compare America to Nazi Germany in terms of brutality abroad but why not Israel? I don't care if they are Jewish. Wrong is wrong, evil is evil regardless of religion or creed.

[RadioRaheem84]

Exactly, WeAreReborn.

I think all the huffiness about comparing Israel to Nazism/Fascism is largely due to the swipe on Israel, the nation.

Even Noam Chomsky alludes Israeli crimes to Nazi War Crimes. The point is not to compare the brutality in terms of sheer size but their brutality toward a people it deems to ethnically cleanse.

It is brutal. Israel is a horrible state to do such a thing. I do not apologize for the comments and if I offend Israeli supporters, then so be it.

[Pretty Flaco]

why are people in a socialist forum defending a highly capitalist state?

the notion of zionism, creating a separate state to house the jews, is completely nationalistic. how is separating people based on ethnic lines any way to combat prejudice?

[Notorio]

Exactly, WeAreReborn.

I think all the huffiness about comparing Israel to Nazism/Fascism is largely due to the swipe on Israel, the nation.

Even Noam Chomsky alludes Israeli crimes to Nazi War Crimes. The point is not to compare the brutality in terms of sheer size but their brutality toward a people it deems to ethnically cleanse.

It is brutal. Israel is a horrible state to do such a thing. I do not apologize for the comments and if I offend Israeli supporters, then so be it.

Well said! The crimes of the two reigiems cannot be compared in magnitude, and i hope it stays this way.

Such ethnic cleansing is definately occuring. The most reminiscent of wihich would be the 1947 Nakba catastrophe.

Again, as you said, i do not apologize for my comments, and once agian, as you stated, feel that the main reason people become agitated when they hear the comparison to naziism is because of the sheer strength of the claim. Frakly, at the end of the day, it's not hard to see the similarites.

[freepalestine]

I don't see why Israel can be singled out as a state to be opposed specifically, given that there are lots of states that are the same in one aspect or the other, if not worse.
so we should all just ignore what israel does?
or would that be anti semitic??


You shouldn't be thankful for that. You were right the first time, and the other writer's "correction" of you was incorrect.

Not all support for Israel is Zionism. Zionism is a particular kind of support for Israel that is based on the belief that God promised the "chosen people" a particular piece of land. People who support Israel based on various other reasons, for example, the often-heard claim that Israel is a glimmer of democracy in a part of the world dominated by undemocratic states, are not properly called Zionists, however misinformed they may be.
oh, right.


Israel isn't fascist. Fascism is just not some term that can be thrown around in regards to any form of repression, authoritarianism, etc ......

So returning to Israel. Israel as a state has obviously been responsible for horrific examples of ethnic cleansing, systematic exclusion and national oppression but it is by no means a fascist state. Of course ........how many times must that poor excuse be used.


No. I have actually debated with Zionists, and I do it fairly regularly. Clearly you never have, since you seem to think that basically saying "Zionism is NAZISM!!!1" is going to convince any of them, or that you're going to last two seconds without being shouted down as an "anti-Semite".ah well,that goes for anyone

[9]

Originally Posted by 9 http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1907776#post1907776)
No. I have actually debated with Zionists, and I do it fairly regularly. Clearly you never have, since you seem to think that basically saying "Zionism is NAZISM!!!1" is going to convince any of them, or that you're going to last two seconds without being shouted down as an "anti-Semite".ah well,that goes for anyone

Yes, you're right, it does. And I was very unhappy with the way that exchange turned out, because the point I was trying to make got twisted, and I think its an important point. I was not trying to say that the problem with making comparisons between Nazism and Zionism is that Zionists will call you an "anti-Semite" - obviously they will call you an "anti-Semite" regardless.

My point was that drawing this parallel between Zionism and Nazism - and the constant invocation of the holocaust that inevitably accompanies it - plays directly, however unintentionally, into Israel's national mythology. The totalitarian power of modern Zionist ideology comes exactly from its utilization of Nazism and the holocaust as a political bludgeon with which to silence or beat into submission anyone who raises even the most halfhearted objection to the actions (let alone the very existence) of the state of Israel. So anti-Zionists who attempt to use the national mythology of Zionism and the state of Israel to make an argument against Zionism and the state of Israel are doing nothing but shooting themselves in the foot.

I think, in general, the best possible approach is to keep the historical persecution of European Jewry as far away from the discussion as possible (and it really is not relevant), and refuse to concede to the Zionist worldview wherein the atrocities committed by the modern state of Israel can only be understood through the lens of Nazism and the holocaust.

[~Spectre]

Yes, you're right, it does. And I was very unhappy with the way that exchange turned out, because the point I was trying to make got twisted, and I think its an important point. I was not trying to say that the problem with making comparisons between Nazism and Zionism is that Zionists will call you an "anti-Semite" - obviously they will call you an "anti-Semite" regardless.

My point was that drawing this parallel between Zionism and Nazism - and the constant invocation of the holocaust that inevitably accompanies it - plays directly, however unintentionally, into Israel's national mythology. The totalitarian power of modern Zionist ideology comes exactly from its utilization of Nazism and the holocaust as a political bludgeon with which to silence or beat into submission anyone who raises even the most halfhearted objection to the actions (let alone the very existence) of the state of Israel. So anti-Zionists who attempt to use the national mythology of Zionism and the state of Israel to make an argument against Zionism and the state of Israel are doing nothing but shooting themselves in the foot.

I think, in general, the best possible approach is to keep the historical persecution of European Jewry as far away from the discussion as possible (and it really is not relevant), and refuse to concede to the Zionist worldview wherein the atrocities committed by the modern state of Israel can only be understood through the lens of Nazism and the holocaust.

Generally, that's how things like this erupt:

ivz06LZSWjY

Finkelstein doesn't respect her crocodile tears.

[9]

Finkelstein doesn't respect her crocodile tears.

And he shouldn't. But I don't think he should even bother invoking the experiences of his parents.

[~Spectre]

And he shouldn't. But I don't think he should even bother invoking the experiences of his parents.

I agree. As hilarious as the clip was, the point I was making was that often times people seize on the more inflammatory rhetoric and use it as a mechanism to drown out the rest of the discussion.

That's the case with Finkelstein as well. He's a brilliant scholar but he's been extremely marginalized because his enemies just snap up a lot of the fiery rhetoric and present it either out of context, or amplify it as somehow being representative of some irrational bias.

[9]

That's the case with Finkelstein as well. He's a brilliant scholar but he's been extremely marginalized because his enemies just snap up a lot of the fiery rhetoric and present it either out of context, or amplify it as somehow being representative of some irrational bias.

Maybe, although I tend to think the primary reason he's been marginalized is because of the actual subject matter - because he's analyzing Zionist ideology and challenging it unapologetically (and I don't agree with everything he says, but I can certainly respect what he's doing). Really, there's no way for an anti-Zionist to be favorably received by Zionists (its a class difference), and I don't think people should tailor their arguments to jibe with Zionist sensibilities, although I think earlier my argument ended up twisted into something that sounded like that. But you should certainly not make the Zionist's argument for them, which is what a lot of people in this thread are unintentionally doing (albeit in a distorted form).

[~Spectre]

Maybe, although I tend to think the primary reason he's been marginalized is because of the actual subject matter - because he's analyzing Zionist ideology and challenging it unapologetically (and I don't agree with everything he says, but I can certainly respect what he's doing). Really, there's no way for an anti-Zionist to be favorably received by Zionists (its a class difference), and I don't think people should tailor their arguments to jibe with Zionist sensibilities, although I think earlier my argument ended up twisted into something that sounded like that. But you should certainly not make the Zionist's argument for them, which is what a lot of people in this thread are unintentionally doing (albeit in a distorted form).


Agreed, which is what I meant. Zionists will try to destroy their enemies relentlessly, either by character assassination in the west, or real assassination closer to Israel. Activists in either area should continue to make their points loudly and defiantly, but guard against retaliations accordingly.

On that subject, I agree with Finkelstein that that was part of the reason for the absolute, frothy mouthed rage that the Goldstone report produced among Zionists. A figure that was completely immune to character assassination.

[Widerstand]

Does it offend people that some compare the Israeli Army to Nazis?

Is so, why does it? Do mere numbers have to factor when comparing brutality?

And why do the Nazis share some special place in the level of brutality unheard of since their demise?

If people feel that the brutality in Palestine is borderline fascism, then let them think so.

I think all the bickering about it being compared to Nazism is just some being offended about Israel being put on blast to that level.

Why is Israel such a sensitive subject? It's a racist, apartheid state with a leadership that is religiously fundamentalist and imperialist.

Seriously fuck you.

There are very few things that come close to comparison to the shoah, and arpatheid surely is none of them. I suggest you read up some on the holocaust, on the KZs, the war actions of Germany, the "medical research" and such if you think the situation in Israel is REMOTELY comparable to the Third Reich. If you want to compare something to the Third Reich, compare the totality of US actions since the abolition of slavery. Then you might have something equal, possibly worse, but still much more drawn out.

[EvilRedGuy]

Who cares if Zionism is fascist or not, the problem is that they are attacking an indeginous people and stealing their land and thats colonialism, just like the europeans did with the native americans, other natives, etc. We shouldn't support colonialism.

[Widerstand]

Who cares if Zionism is fascist or not, the problem is that they are attacking an indeginous people and stealing their land and thats colonialism, just like the europeans did with the native americans, other natives, etc. We shouldn't support colonialism.

I don't know why the left is so caught up with the concept of the "reverse-holocaust". It's useless and only serves to discredit the actual criticism of Israel.

[4 Leaf Clover]

i suggest anyone who likes comics, to read "Palestine" by Joe Sacko , who is by the way American comic novels author who went to Palestine during second Intifada. Then you will understand the true nature and purpose of Israel national politics , and Israel generally.

http://charlesshaarmurray.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/palestine1.jpg

[EvilRedGuy]

Can you give us a link to it? I can't find it

[~Spectre]

Seriously fuck you.

There are very few things that come close to comparison to the shoah, and arpatheid surely is none of them. I suggest you read up some on the holocaust, on the KZs, the war actions of Germany, the "medical research" and such if you think the situation in Israel is REMOTELY comparable to the Third Reich. If you want to compare something to the Third Reich, compare the totality of US actions since the abolition of slavery. Then you might have something equal, possibly worse, but still much more drawn out.

You're being a bit unfair to Raheem here. While the comparisons are usually useless you have to keep in mind that firstly, the Nazi comparisons are a frequent part of Israeli political discourse (see the Israeli right wing's famous tantrums at Rabin). Next, the comparisons aren't based on Israeli atrocity being on the same scale (it's impossible based on the world balance of power, and unfeasible based on WWII shocking most of the world away from such practices), but rather on the attitudes displayed by Israeli leaders and Zionists. Golda Meir calling them 'dogs', ANYTHING ever said by the Israeli right (check out Avigdor Lieberman and tell me he wouldn't have made quite the Nazi if he had been born under those circumstances), and the proclamations of the religious extremists, like the Shas rabbi that said "Goyim have no place in the world- only to serve the People of Israel". Finally, Israel has come close to massive nuclear attacks on Arab population centers, so that would've given you some death tolls that would make the comparison no longer as laughable.


So while I agree that the comparisons should be avoided, as the easy Zionist retort is usually:

Oh!? why don't you say that about the U.S.!? You're an anti-semite!

There's no need to act like Raheem was nuts for saying what he did. It's not nearly as black and white.

[freepalestine]

Yes, you're right, it does. And I was very unhappy with the way that exchange turned out, because the point I was trying to make got twisted, and I think its an important point. I was not trying to say that the problem with making comparisons between Nazism and Zionism is that Zionists will call you an "anti-Semite" - obviously they will call you an "anti-Semite" regardless.

My point was that drawing this parallel between Zionism and Nazism - and the constant invocation of the holocaust that inevitably accompanies it - plays directly, however unintentionally, into Israel's national mythology. The totalitarian power of modern Zionist ideology comes exactly from its utilization of Nazism and the holocaust as a political who raises even the most halfhearted objection to the actions (let alone the very existence) of the state of Israel. So anti-Zionists who attempt to use the national mythology of Zionism and the state of Israel to make an argument against Zionism and the state of Israel are doing nothing but shooting themselves in the foot.

I think, in general, the best possible approach is to keep the historical persecution of European Jewry as far away from the discussion as possible (and it really is not relevant), and refuse to concede to the Zionist worldview wherein the atrocities committed by the modern state of Israel can only be understood through the lens of Nazism and the holocaust.i agree.it's a poor basis to discredit zionism.as noted in the bold text.

[RadioRaheem84]

Seriously fuck you.

There are very few things that come close to comparison to the shoah, and arpatheid surely is none of them. I suggest you read up some on the holocaust, on the KZs, the war actions of Germany, the "medical research" and such if you think the situation in Israel is REMOTELY comparable to the Third Reich. If you want to compare something to the Third Reich, compare the totality of US actions since the abolition of slavery. Then you might have something equal, possibly worse, but still much more drawn out.

Way to lose focus and completely become emotionally detached.

The entire point was that sheer numbers and scale of brutality is not the point of the Nazi/Israeli comparison. But the attitude and the systemic oppression that the Palestinians face from the Israeli State. I said that I wouldn't make those comparisons so obvious and over state them, but if people want to see that in this brutal modern day oppression, then let them.
It is not understating the Shoah or overstating the situation in Palestine.

I was mostly complaining about the insensitivity toward people going so far as to criticize Israel to that level. I was wondering why? I didn't think that it had anything to do with a respect for the Shoa but more of a respect for the State of Israel.

Are you going to tell Chomsky and Finklestein to fuck off too?

When someone sees an Israeli soldier cuss out a Palestinian and then beat him and say this is our land etc, they do not think, "oh racist Sheriffs from Birmingham, or even "South African solider during apartheid". They tend to think of that other brutal systemic segregation into ghettos that lack food and medicine etc, the Nazis!

It's not about the Holocaust, it's about the round up and placement of Palestinians in ghettos (camps). Not letting them live. Taking away their dignity. Constantly telling them they're less than human. The confiscation of property and territory to give to Jews who are deemed superior to them.

This is what they see. Something even beyond Apartheid.

[Barry Lyndon]

I don't go for Nazi analogies personally, but I do find it ironic and hypocritical that even on the Left many of the same people who so loudly object to comparing Israel to the Nazis have no problem comparing Arabs and/or Islamic fundamentalists to Nazis('Islamofascism').

[Crux]

I don't go for Nazi analogies personally, but I do find it ironic and hypocritical that even on the Left many of the same people who so loudly object to comparing Israel to the Nazis have no problem comparing Arabs and/or Islamic fundamentalists to Nazis('Islamofascism').
Who exactly?

[Widerstand]

The entire point was that sheer numbers and scale of brutality is not the point of the Nazi/Israeli comparison.

What that attitude does is relativize the Holocaust and ridiculing it, by reducing it to a sheer matter of numbers - it wasn't.


But the attitude and the systemic oppression that the Palestinians face from the Israeli State. I said that I wouldn't make those comparisons so obvious and over state them, but if people want to see that in this brutal modern day oppression, then let them.

There is severe racist oppression, there are very real racist issues, there is apartheid, yes. That's not the Holocaust. Not even close to it.



It is not understating the Shoah or overstating the situation in Palestine.

It's about relativizing the Shoah, making it seem less important.


I was mostly complaining about the insensitivity toward people going so far as to criticize Israel to that level. I was wondering why? I didn't think that it had anything to do with a respect for the Shoa but more of a respect for the State of Israel.

Insensitivity? Are you saying it's insensitive to point out that the shoah and the Israeli apartheid are not the same? Way to completely turn things around. Way to relativize the Holocaust.



Are you going to tell Chomsky and Finklestein to fuck off too?

Yes. Why, are they supposed to be my Glorious Führer?



When someone sees an Israeli soldier cuss out a Palestinian and then beat him and say this is our land etc, they do not think, "oh racist Sheriffs from Birmingham, or even "South African solider during apartheid". They tend to think of that other brutal systemic segregation into ghettos that lack food and medicine etc, the Nazis!

If you think "lack of food and medicine" was the worst thing about the Holocaust I really, really urge you, beseech you - no, beg you to read a fucking book about it.

If you want to compare Israel to something, compare it to South Africa, fine. It's not a perfect comparison, but there are a lot of structural similarities.



It's not about the Holocaust

Oh really? Then why are "Anti-Zionists" constantly bringing up the "Reverse Holocaust" argument?



it's about the round up and placement of Palestinians in ghettos (camps). Not letting them live. Taking away their dignity. Constantly telling them they're less than human. The confiscation of property and territory to give to Jews who are deemed superior to them.

Other regimes have done the same and are doing the same without being compared to the Holocaust. Indonesian actions in East-Timor have been been pretty much the same to what, 2 million people? Have these ever been compared to the Holocaust? Well, yes. Indirectly. Chomsky called them "the biggest ethnic cleansing since the shoah", or something in that vein. Other than that? No. Most people on the left don't even know about East-Timor, despite the fact there still is a racist civil war as well as UN occupation.

Clearly, the comparisons to the Holocaust wouldn't arise if the aggressors were not the victims of the Holocaust - Jews. This doesn't make their atrocities any more acceptable, but it is a serious threat of structural Anti-Semitism.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Can you give us a link to it? I can't find it

actually , you have to find it on ebay or somewhere to order it. but you definitely should read it , its a bit big , i doubt it would be an experience to read it on computer. An emotional person can get tears on it. Its not pathetic , its just a raw reality.

[RadioRaheem84]

Widerstand, I am not even referring to the actual Final Solution of the Holocaust.

Get your head out of your emotionally unstable ass.

I am talking about the roundup of a different ethnic group into ghettos and controlling their very lives.

Your post was relatively worthless.

And why are you assuming that the Shoah holds the most sacred place in the halls of systemic genocide? It was a cruel massacre (one of the cruelest) but there is no sacred line says that it cannot be used, in some instances, to compare the similarities (in mindset and brutality) of other situations.

For most people it's about the thought and actions and the systemic cultivation of hatred among the populace too (Jewish settlers). That is what reminds them of the Nazi regime towards the Jews, not the actual historical numbers, scale, and what not of the event itself.

That was uncalled for Widerstand. There was no need to sarcastically refer to me as being "ignorant" of the Holocaust. My intention was never even to actually state that I totally agree with the "reverse Holocaust" position or whatever you call it, but that I could understand what people see in the Palestinian situation that reminds them of the systemic brutality of the Nazis toward another ethnic groups.

Seriously, what is your problem? Would you mind enlightening me as to the reasons for you emotional outburst like that?

[Widerstand]

Widerstand, I am not even referring to the actual Final Solution of the Holocaust.

Get your head out of your emotionally unstable ass.

I am talking about the roundup of a different ethnic group into ghettos and controlling their very lives.

Your post was relatively worthless.

And why are you assuming that the Shoah holds the most sacred place in the halls of systemic genocide? It was a cruel massacre (one of the cruelest) but there is no sacred line says that it cannot be used, in some instances, to compare the similarities (in mindset and brutality) of other situations.

For most people it's about the thought and actions and the systemic cultivation of hatred among the populace too. That is what reminds them of the Nazi regime towards the Jews, not the actual historical numbers, scale, and what not of the event itself.

That was uncalled for Widerstanb. There was no need to sarcastically refer to me as being "ignorant" of the Holocaust. My intention was never even to actually state that I totally agree with the "reverse Holocaust" position or whatever you call it, but that I could understand what people see in the Palestinian situation that reminds them of the systemic brutality of the Nazis toward another ethnic groups.

Seriously, what is your problem? Would you mind enlightening me as to the reasons for you emotional outburst like that?

My problem is that people not only justify Anti-Semitism but also play down the horrors of the holocaust with the exact same argument you are defending: That "the Jews" are having a "reverse Holocaust" on the Palestinians.

[RadioRaheem84]

My problem is that people not only justify Anti-Semitism but also play down the horrors of the holocaust with the exact same argument you are defending: That "the Jews" are having a "reverse Holocaust" on the Palestinians.

Who is downplaying the horrors of the Holocaust?

Seriously, who among us here?

And by stating that the Israelis (not Jews) and further more the Israeli government is committing ethnic cleansing, fueling hatred among the most ardent of Israel supporters, and controlling the lives of Palestinians trapped in ghettos. This is all systematic. This wasn't done because of some organic relations that formed with the rest of the Arab world. This was done to push people out and take their land.

How much more must it be spelled out for you?

[Barry Lyndon]

It's an inversion of anti-Semitism- philo-Semitism, a worldview in which anything that involves Jews is automatically more important and special. Anti-Semitism is the only bigotry that matters, even though it is now marginal while anti-Arab/anti-Muslim bigotry is rampant. The Holocaust is sacrosanct, the only atrocity that matters in human history, even though it was one of several comparable atrocities.

Seriously, pull your head out of your ass.

[Widerstand]

Who is downplaying the horrors of the Holocaust?

Seriously, who among us here?

Everyone claiming that the situation in Palestine is the same as the situation in Nazi Germany, which a lot of people have done here.


It's an inversion of anti-Semitism- philo-Semitism, a worldview in which anything that involves Jews is automatically more important and special. Anti-Semitism is the only bigotry that matters, even though it is now marginal while anti-Arab/anti-Muslim bigotry is rampant. The Holocaust is sacrosanct, the only atrocity that matters in human history.

Seriously, pull your head out of your ass.

Where was I downplaying Anti-Arab/Anti-Muslim bigotry? I'm not contesting that Anti-Semitism is a "minor" concern next to these, but Anti-Semitism is a real and existing problem of the left.

[~Spectre]

but Anti-Semitism is a real and existing problem of the left.

That's absolute, apologist, bullshit.

[RadioRaheem84]

Everyone claiming that the situation in Palestine is the same as the situation in Nazi Germany, which a lot of people have done here


There are similarities. And it's not about the Final Solution rounding up the Jews from the Ghettos to go to Auschwitz that I am talking about but the systematic rounding up Palestinians and controlled environment that I am referring to (the creation of the ghettos). We're talking about comparisons between the actions of the Nazis to some extent and Israeli policies of ethnic cleansing.

Are you this dense? There is no rampant anti-semitic problem on the left when they reference Israeli crimes as being akin to what was seen in Nazi Germany to some extent.

[Revolutionair]

Both the title of this thread and the question in the poll should be changed to "Do most people on revleft actually support Israel?" and "Do you support Israel?" Since Israel is being discussed here, not Zionism.

[Widerstand]

That's absolute, apologist, bullshit.

No it's not. What the fuck would I be apologizing for anyway? Maybe you are the apologist? Why exactly would the left be free of anti-semitism? Are you going to tell me that the left also has no sexism issues? That the left has no transphobic issues?


reference Israeli crimes as being akin to what was seen in Nazi Germany to some extent.

Oh let's see...


I'm sure every state wages genocidal war like this on a daily basis.

"Waging genocidal war" is actually closer to "rounding up in Ghettos" than to Auschwitz?


They are a twin of the Aryan Nationalists,

Their Ideology revolves around ethnic supremacy,

And the mass murder on a daily basis.

Where is your "extent" now?


Germany: Ayran Nationalism
Israel: Jewish Nationalism.

Germany: Nazi Fascism
Israel: Zionist Fascism

Germany: Oppression of minority's
Israel: Oppression of Blacks, Palestinians ect.

Germany: Justified killing Jews "Because they are dirty, they are a threat to our nation and should leave."

Yeah, of course, it doesn't EXPLICITLY mention the final solution.

[Widerstand]

Both the title of this thread and the question in the poll should be changed to "Do most people on revleft actually support Israel?" and "Do you support Israel?" Since Israel is being discussed here, not Zionism.

Not even then. What is beign asserted here is that "supporting ANYTHING Israeli" is the same as supporting Zionist ideology as well as the every oppression of Palestinians, which is a pure bullshit generalization.

[~Spectre]

No it's not. What the fuck would I be apologizing for anyway? Maybe you are the apologist? Why exactly would the left be free of anti-semitism?



You didn't say that. Obviously there are anti-*insert here* in any sort of movement. That doesn't mean it is a "real and existing problem" with "the left".

To bring that up when talking about Israel is just a cheap smokescreen that no one buys, and it's harmful to real anti-semitism. You should be ashamed.

[RadioRaheem84]

The mindset of many of the Israeli right wing is one of Zionist/ethnic supremacy.

Jewish settlers are some of the most rabid anti-Arab people anywhere.

The mentality, the brutality does resemble elements of the Nazi regime.

Widerstand, just admit that you support the State of Israel.

[Widerstand]

You didn't say that. Obviously there are anti-*insert here* in any sort of movement. That doesn't mean it is a "real and existing problem" with "the left".

To bring that up when talking about Israel is just a cheap smokescreen that no one buys, and it's harmful to real anti-semitism. You should be ashamed.

Uhm I have given a variety of reasons why I think that there are anti-semitic tendencies within the left. You are of course free to think that's not a problem, I would think it is. An emancipatory movement should at least try to be free of the things it aims to abolish, anything else is hypocritical.

And how is it a "cheap smokescreen"? To be clear, I have started out by noting that "Do you support Zionism" is a vague question, and that what constitutes "supporting Zionism" is largely a matter of individual interpretation - which has lead to a host of people denouncing me as "Zionist/Fascist/Nationalist/Nazi/"Anti-German"/etc." I have then talked about what I think is critique-worthy about leftist "Anti-Zionism" - which has lead to more of the same namecalling.

If anyone here is using a "cheap smokescreen" it's self-sanctified Anti-Zionists denouncing every bit of disagreement as fascist.

[Widerstand]

The mindset of many of the Israeli right wing is one of Zionist/ethnic supremacy.

Jewish settlers are some of the most rabid anti-Arab people anywhere.

The mentality, the brutality does resemble elements of the Nazi regime.

The brutality of the Israeli settlers resembles Auschwitz? Get a grip.


Widerstand, just admit that you support the State of Israel.

Yeah because if I say that anti-semitism is bad obviously I must be racist against arabs.

Fuck you with your self righteous black-and-white worldview.

Now, let me quote myself:


I think Israel has the exact same 'right to exist' as any other nation state: Ultimately none, but under current conditions its existence is as justified as any other current nation state's.

[Revolutionair]

The mindset of many of the Israeli right wing is one of Zionist/ethnic supremacy.

Jewish settlers are some of the most rabid anti-Arab people anywhere.

The mentality, the brutality does resemble elements of the Nazi regime.

Widerstand, just admit that you support the State of Israel.

How about the non-Jewish settlers? Who just live there because the government of Israel subsidizes them to live there.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

How about the non-Jewish settlers? Who just live there because the government of Israel subsidizes them to live there.

lol? non-jewish settlers? what?

[RadioRaheem84]

The brutality of the Israeli settlers resembles Auschwitz? Get a grip.


No that is what I tried the entire time to avoid. You're hopeless.

I said that the Israeli crimes resemble (to some extent) the systemic oppression the Jews felt in the ghettos, before they were all shipped to Auschwitz. That is my opinion. I cannot speak for anyone else.


Yeah because if I say that anti-semitism is bad obviously I must be racist against arabs.

Fuck you with your self righteous black-and-white worldview.

Calm yourself. You clearly support the State of Israel and think that it deserves to exist because of "current conditions".

What current conditions, may I ask?

[Widerstand]

What current conditions, may I ask?

The condition that there is no part of the world that is not made up by nation states, and that there can't be, unless we are talking about some sort of "socialism in one country" model. Everything else would be seized by it's neighbors. Also the lack of a real alternative to Israel - it is highly unlikely that the PLFP will be able to seize power following an abolition of the Israeli state, and it is likely that an Arab non-PLFP regime will be apartheid and oppressive as well. I support a two state solution, within proper boundaries (i.e. not giving the Palestinian state ridiculously low amount of land which is mostly unfertile); or a one state solution with a proper government, which I think is unlikely, except maybe with some sort of quota (for example 50% Jewish 50% Muslim).

[Revolutionair]

lol? non-jewish settlers? what?
Not every Israeli is a Jew and not every Jew is an Israeli. This whole thread, fusing the Israeli government, Zionism and Jews in general, is a fraud.
The Israeli government is subsidizing Israeli's to live in the settlements, this has nothing to do with Judaism or Zionism.

Almost everything in this thread is intellectually bankrupt.

[Widerstand]

Not every Israeli is a Jew and not every Jew is an Israeli.

This is true though. There are even Arabs in the IDF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Minorities_in_the_IDF

[RadioRaheem84]

This whole thread, fusing the Israeli government, Zionism and Jews in general, is a fraud.

No one is doing that. Shut the fuck up.

Seriously. What's getting ridiculous are the Israeli apologists.

I made it a point to distinguish between Jews and Israelis and even further the Israeli government and Israeli right from all Israelis in general.

Some of the most ardent supporters of the Palestinians are Jews and Israelis, Israeli Jews, Non Jewish Israelis and even Israeli (jew and non jew alike) in the government (although a VERY small minority).

So stop. The only thing intellectually bankrupt is you and your cohorts.

Widerstand, you're next.

[Revolutionair]

Calm yourself. You clearly support the State of Israel and think that it deserves to exist because of "current conditions".

It might be wise to invent strategies. The people of Palestine don't care about state rights or capitalism. What we need to do is work in steps. Current conditions means that the state of Israel exists at the moment. To fight it, we must not strengthen it by screaming bullshit. If we would first push a two-state solution and an end to the subsidizing of settlements, then we can talk about removing the state of Israel altogether.

[RadioRaheem84]

This is true though. There are even Arabs in the IDF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Minorities_in_the_IDF

Oh my gosh. I am convinced! There is no systematic and systemic oppression of the Palestinians because of Israeli Arabs in the military. The IDF is absolved.

Thank you Widerstand.

Seriously, what is your point?

[Barry Lyndon]

This is true though. There are even Arabs in the IDF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Minorities_in_the_IDF

When the US cavalry massacred American Indian villages, they used scouts from rival tribes. I guess they weren't racist imperialists either.

You claim to not to be a Zionist and yet are using every Zionist argument in the book. Just give up.

[Revolutionair]

No one is doing that. Shut the fuck up.

Say what? The title of this thread is doing that, the majority of posts in this thread is doing that.


Seriously. What's getting ridiculous are the Israeli apologists.

Learn the difference between people who genuinely want to help the people of Palestine by securing their safety through negotiations and people who just want to scream 1-liners.
We are fully aware that negotiations will not solve the problem. But if we can first make the people of Palestine survive for more than 1 day, then we can build a movement with them. It's called working in steps.

[Revolutionair]

You claim to not to be a Zionist and yet are using every Zionist argument in the book. Just give up.

Not every Zionist is a supporter of Israel and not every supporter of Israel is a Zionist. Don't use the two words as synonyms.

[RadioRaheem84]

The condition that there is no part of the world that is not made up by nation states, and that there can't be, unless we are talking about some sort of "socialism in one country" model. Everything else would be seized by it's neighbors. Also the lack of a real alternative to Israel - it is highly unlikely that the PLFP will be able to seize power following an abolition of the Israeli state, and it is likely that an Arab non-PLFP regime will be apartheid and oppressive as well. I support a two state solution, within proper boundaries (i.e. not giving the Palestinian state ridiculously low amount of land which is mostly unfertile); or a one state solution with a proper government, which I think is unlikely, except maybe with some sort of quota (for example 50% Jewish 50% Muslim).


How do you know it is likely that a Arab non-PLFP will just as oppressive?

The whole reason why they're not allowing for a right of return is because many Palestinians will flood in and thus destroy "the nation of Israel" in the Israeli right's eyes.

What is the reformist apologizing for Israel on this thread?

[RadioRaheem84]

Say what? The title of this thread is doing that, the majority of posts in this thread is doing that.



Learn the difference between people who genuinely want to help the people of Palestine by securing their safety through negotiations and people who just want to scream 1-liners.
We are fully aware that negotiations will not solve the problem. But if we can first make the people of Palestine survive for more than 1 day, then we can build a movement with them. It's called working in steps.

It's called reformism and it barely helps. But thank you being so considerate of Israel.


Not every Zionist is a supporter of Israel and not every supporter of Israel is a Zionist. Don't use the two words as synonyms.


There are anti-Zionist Jews that I converse with on a weekly basis and even they say that Israel really has not right to exist. I do not conflate everyone together. I look at support for policies and actions.

[RadioRaheem84]

When the US cavalry massacred American Indian villages, they used scouts from rival tribes. I guess they weren't racist imperialists either.

You claim to not to be a Zionist and yet are using every Zionist argument in the book. Just give up.


Exactly. They're just peddling pro-Zionist shit and passing it off as a sane position for leftists to take.

[Revolutionair]

It's called reformism and it barely helps.

But at least it is helping. Like I said, we are fully aware that negotiations are not going to solve the problem.
There are other people outside of the revolutionary left, and most of them are not going to like you when you scream down with Israel. In fact, they are going to get scared and they will flock to pro-Israel factions. If you care about the people of Palestine, you do shit to help them, not just scream one-liners.
When we have a stable foundation to launch action from, then we can talk about revolutions.
In the West, in China, in India, in Latin America, in most of the Middle East, in Japan there is an option of revolutionary action. This is because the people are not being massacred on a daily basis by one of the strongest armies.

I am NOT pro-Israel. I think that Israel has no right to exist. But if you want to help the Palestinians you will need to recognize the fact that today, Israel exists and it has support. You need to take that into consideration.


There are anti-Zionist Jews that I converse with on a weekly basis and even they say that Israel really has not right to exist. I do not conflate everyone together. I look at support for policies and actions.

That last message was aimed at Barry Lyndon, who did actually used the words as synonyms.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

Not every Israeli is a Jew and not every Jew is an Israeli. This whole thread, fusing the Israeli government, Zionism and Jews in general, is a fraud.
The Israeli government is subsidizing Israeli's to live in the settlements, this has nothing to do with Judaism or Zionism.

Almost everything in this thread is intellectually bankrupt.

Being a non-observant American Jew, I know that not every Israeli is a Jew and not every Jew is an Israeli. The settlements in Israel, however, are Jewish-only.

Awareness of little facts like that -- besides a conscience -- partly explains why I choose to stand against Israel's racism.

[RadioRaheem84]

Thank You, Comrade Marxist Bro!

[RadioRaheem84]

But at least it is helping. Like I said, we are fully aware that negotiations are not going to solve the problem.
There are other people outside of the revolutionary left, and most of them are not going to like you when you scream down with Israel. In fact, they are going to get scared and they will flock to pro-Israel factions. If you care about the people of Palestine, you do shit to help them, not just scream one-liners.
When we have a stable foundation to launch action from, then we can talk about revolutions.
In the West, in China, in India, in Latin America, in most of the Middle East, in Japan there is an option of revolutionary action. This is because the people are not being massacred on a daily basis by one of the strongest armies.

I am NOT pro-Israel. I think that Israel has no right to exist. But if you want to help the Palestinians you will need to recognize the fact that today, Israel exists and it has support. You need to take that into consideration.



That last message was aimed at Barry Lyndon, who did actually used the words as synonyms.

Down with Israel does not mean "kill the citizens of the state of Israel".

[Barry Lyndon]

But at least it is helping. Like I said, we are fully aware that negotiations are not going to solve the problem.
There are other people outside of the revolutionary left, and most of them are not going to like you when you scream down with Israel. In fact, they are going to get scared and they will flock to pro-Israel factions. If you care about the people of Palestine, you do shit to help them, not just scream one-liners

That just reveals your Western-centric view of the world- we are not 'alienating' anybody. In much of the world, particularly the Third World, there is widespread sympathy with the plight of the Palestinians, across the political spectrum. Why? Because its a clear case of colonialism, an experience that is not some sort of abstraction to people in much of Asia, Africa and Latin America. By global standards, me and RadioRaheem84 are rather moderate on this issue.

Only in the US where there is tons of misleading propaganda on this issue and in Israel itself is there this hardline fanatical support of Israel no matter what it does. That can't be helped, and were not interested in winning over anyone who has already made up their mind that Israel is above harsh criticism.

[Revolutionair]

That just reveals your Western-centric view of the world- we are not 'alienating' anybody. In much of the world, particularly the Third World, there is widespread sympathy with the plight of the Palestinians

That's nice. But the donations to Israel come from the West, not from the Third World. It's not that hard to change the agenda of people here in Europe as long as we don't scare the shit out of people.
I've talked to people in the streets about Israel. Most of them didn't really know what was going on. There was one thing they did know though and that was that they leaned towards supporting the Israeli domination of the area. And most of them had the same reason, they didn't like the people who screamed "Israel = Nazi" and the 'evil revolutionary folk'. Further in the discussion with me calmly explaining the situation about the settlements and the Apartheid, they started caring more about the Palestinians.

We can reach way more people if we stop demanding the extremes. Our end goal must of course stay 'the extreme', but it's not wrong to first build a solid basis for the future revolutionary action.

[freepalestine]

... What is beign asserted here is that "supporting ANYTHING Israeli" is the same as supporting Zionist ideology as well as the every oppression of Palestinians, which is a pure bullshit generalization.
zionism is supporting isreal..

This is true though. There are even Arabs in the IDF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Minorities_in_the_IDF yes,and there are arabs in the us army,and maybe palestinians..so ?


Not every Zionist is a supporter of Israel and not every supporter of Israel is a Zionist. Don't use the two words as synonyms.they're the same thing.zionism is support of israel/israeli nationalism


But at least it is helping. Like I said, we are fully aware that negotiations are not going to solve the problem.
There are other people outside of the revolutionary left, and most of them are not going to like you when you scream down with Israel. In fact, they are going to get scared and they will flock to pro-Israel factions. If you care about the people of Palestine, you do shit to help them, not just scream one-liners.
When we have a stable foundation to launch action from, then we can talk about revolutions.
In the West, in China, in India, in Latin America, in most of the Middle East, in Japan there is an option of revolutionary action. This is because the people are not being massacred on a daily basis by one of the strongest armies.

I am NOT pro-Israel. I think that Israel has no right to exist. But if you want to help the Palestinians you will need to recognize the fact that today, Israel exists and it has support. You need to take that into consideration.
.likes of you turn up often when israel or zionism is mentioned.what next ,calling every leftist 'anti-jewish' etc...directed at both widerstand and revoltionair.terrible..

[9]

This whole thread, fusing the Israeli government, Zionism and Jews in general, is a fraud.

Zionism was the historical movement for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, and modern Zionism is concerned primarily with supporting and defending the State of Israel, the "Jewish homeland". So yeah, its quite the revelation - the Israeli government, Zionism, and Judaism are interrelated OMGZ


The Israeli government is subsidizing Israeli's to live in the settlements, this has nothing to do with Judaism or Zionism.

This is nonsense. The criteria to determine who has the right to settle in Israel is based upon having a grandparent who was an adherent of Judaism, although it is much easier for people to obtain citizenship if their connection to Judaism is more immediate than that and if they are themselves practicing, or married to a practicing Jew, or have parents who are practicing Jews, etc. So yeah, it has a shit ton to do with Judaism. And Jewish settlement in Israel is a key component of Zionism.



Almost everything in this thread is intellectually bankrupt.

Yeah, there are some mind-numbingly terrible arguments (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1901767&postcount=58) in this thread; your argument is entirely in keeping with that trend.

[Revolutionair]

zionism is supporting isreal..
their the same thing.zionism is support of israel/israeli nationalism

Wrong. Zionism is not synonymous with support for the state of Israel. One can be a Zionist and support the removal of Israel.


likes of you turn up often when israel or zionism is mentioned.what next ,calling every leftist 'anti-jewish' etc....terrible..

Fuck off. I am not claiming that anyone here is anti-Jewish or anti-Semite or any of those retarded 1-liners.

[Barry Lyndon]

Wrong. Zionism is not synonymous with support for the state of Israel. One can be a Zionist and support the removal of Israel.

No.

[Revolutionair]

Zionism was the historical movement for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, and modern Zionism is concerned primarily with supporting and defending the State of Israel, the "Jewish homeland". So yeah, its quite the revelation - the Israeli government, Zionism, and Judaism are interrelated OMGZ



This is nonsense. The criteria to determine who has the right to settle in Israel is based upon having a grandparent who was an adherent of Judaism, although it is much easier for people to obtain citizenship if their connection to Judaism is more immediate than that and if they are themselves practicing, or married to a practicing Jew, or have parents who are practicing Jews, etc. So yeah, it has a shit ton to do with Judaism. And Jewish settlement in Israel is a key component of Zionism.

I am going to assume you are also an atheist. If someone would pay you just to live in a house (and they want you, because you an atheist), would you do it? If yes, do you feel you did it because you felt connected with your atheism, or because it was in your economic advantage?

Like I said earlier in this thread: not all Zionists support Israel. Not all supporters of Israel. One can be anti-Israel and still be a Zionist. I was not saying they were not related, I am saying they are not synonyms.

My goal is the removal of the state of Israel, I constantly have the feeling that people forget that.

[Revolutionair]

No.

Then we are using different definitions of the word Zionist.

[freepalestine]

Then we are using different definitions of the word Zionist.
possibly you are.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

What seems to be the implict assumption of the arguments made in this thead is that leftists should be supportive of any fundamentally (and this case blatantly) capitalist state whatsoever and it is a matter of "choosing" between supporting Hamas or Isreal.

[Revolutionair]

possibly you are.

Looking back in this thread, there are at least 4 different definitions of Zionism being used.


If Zionism means: the support of the Israeli government to oppress Palestinians. Then I am not a Zionist. If anti-Zionism means in this context the eradication of all Jews in Palestine, I am neither a Zionist or anti-Zionist. If anti-Zionism means opposing the Israeli government, and acknowledging the fact that civilian population and government are two different things, I would be anti-Zionist.

If Zionism means: the support of a two state solution. I am not a Zionist.

If Zionism means: a one state solution, that state being Palestine. And the support of Jewish labor movements in Palestine, movements that co-operate with Palestinian labor movements. Then I am a Zionist.

If Zionism means: a zero state solution with people forming anarchist collectives, which would include Jews. Then I am a Zionist.

[9]

What seems to be the implict assumption of the arguments made in this thead is that leftists should be supportive of any fundamentally (and this case blatantly) capitalist state whatsoever and it is a matter of "choosing" between supporting Hamas or Isreal.

Uhh, could you provide an example of an argument containing this "implicit assumption"? Personally, I don't recall even seeing any mention of Hamas in this thread.

[Revolutionair]

Uhh, could you provide an example of an argument containing this "implicit assumption"? Personally, I don't recall even seeing any mention of Hamas in this thread.

Hamas got mentioned at like page 6 or something.

[Barry Lyndon]

Looking back in this thread, there are at least 4 different definitions of Zionism being used.


If Zionism means: the support of the Israeli government to oppress Palestinians. Then I am not a Zionist. If anti-Zionism means in this context the eradication of all Jews in Palestine, I am neither a Zionist or anti-Zionist. If anti-Zionism means opposing the Israeli government, and acknowledging the fact that civilian population and government are two different things, I would be anti-Zionist.

If Zionism means: the support of a two state solution. I am not a Zionist.

If Zionism means: a one state solution, that state being Palestine. And the support of Jewish labor movements in Palestine, movements that co-operate with Palestinian labor movements. Then I am a Zionist.

If Zionism means: a zero state solution with people forming anarchist collectives, which would include Jews. Then I am a Zionist.

Zionism is the advocacy of a Jewish state in Palestine. It inherently excludes the Arabs, and it is certainly not compatible with anarchism.

This lets-love-each-other utopian Zionism you speak of doesn't exist because its not Zionism. Period.

Please stop posting.

[Revolutionair]

Zionism is the advocacy of a Jewish state in Palestine. It inherently excludes the Arabs, and it is certainly not compatible with anarchism.

This lets-love-each-other utopian Zionism you speak of doesn't exist because its not Zionism. Period.

Please stop posting.

Oh okay thanks for telling me. You are so smart and so cool.
I guess workers working together for workers' rights is utopian.

edit: And that history has obviously been falsified since you claim that Zionism never included labor movements.
So only one question remains: who has documented this lie into all of those books and people's memories. One of those people being Noam Chomsky. Who you might not agree with, but he sure as hell is a higher authority on the subject than you.

[Rafiq]

If Zionism means: the support of a two state solution. I am not a Zionist.

If Zionism means: a one state solution, that state being Palestine. And the support of Jewish labor movements in Palestine, movements that co-operate with Palestinian labor movements. Then I am a Zionist.

If Zionism means: a zero state solution with people forming anarchist collectives, which would include Jews. Then I am a Zionist.


Zionism means Ethnic Nationalism of White Jews. Plain and Simple.

[Widerstand]

Zionism means Ethnic Nationalism of White Jews. Plain and Simple.

Will you make up your mind?


In any way shape or form, supporting the State of Israel

[Rafiq]

Will you make up your mind?

Okay Both.