A semantic question

[Widerstand]

Could LGBT opression be considered part of sexism?

[Dick Van Guard]

Could LGBT opression be considered part of sexism?

Well it has the same root as the oppression of heterosexual women.

[Armchair War Criminal]

Well it has the same root as the oppression of heterosexual women.
This, plus it's also sexism in the technical sense of judging men and women differently for the same behaviors: prejudice against homosexuals entails condemning (e.g.) attraction to men in men but not in women.

[Queercommie Girl]

In the more literal sense, discrimination against trans-women for instance really is a direct form of sexism, and not just a derived one, since trans-women are a sub-category of women in general.

[Victus Mortuum]

Simply speaking, yes. Sexism is treating someone of a particular sexual physical composition as if they must act according to specific stereotypical roles (sexuality, clothing, mannerisms, etc.) such as "male" or "female" (in the non-physical senses). In the end, IMO, the only logical conclusion of LGBT and Feminism (and probably an eventual "masculinism" fighting to break male stereotypes) would be the simple abolition of social categories of gender in general, resulting in a wholly transgender society.

[hatzel]

But...I don't see why any of this makes homophobia and the like any closer to sexism than, say, racism...they're all discrimination, and as far as I'm concerned, that's pretty much the end of the bond between them. Working on the assumption that sexism is more about considering women (or, in fact, men) somehow inferior, end of, whilst homophobia is more centred around ideas of what is and isn't 'natural'. So I guess from that, sexism and racism are probably closer to one another than either are to homophobia...bandying them all together into one and the same thing almost does one of the two a disservice, I'd say.

[JazzRemington]

Well, sexism is based on someone's sex/gender. LGBT are discriminated based on their sexual orientation. Hypothetically, you could be targeted based on your sexual orientation but not because of your sex/gender, or vice versa, or both. It's still discrimination, though.

[graymouser]

But...I don't see why any of this makes homophobia and the like any closer to sexism than, say, racism...they're all discrimination, and as far as I'm concerned, that's pretty much the end of the bond between them. Working on the assumption that sexism is more about considering women (or, in fact, men) somehow inferior, end of, whilst homophobia is more centred around ideas of what is and isn't 'natural'. So I guess from that, sexism and racism are probably closer to one another than either are to homophobia...bandying them all together into one and the same thing almost does one of the two a disservice, I'd say.
Sexism and homophobia are both rooted in patriarchal gender identities and property issues, and women's liberation and LGBT lifestyles are violations of the norms of the same patriarchal structures. Racism is not related to sexism in this way - it's a social construction based on the color of one's skin, not on sex. The idea that homophobia is primarily about what is or isn't "natural" is irrelevant; homosexuality is quite natural, it just goes against social constructions.

[Queercommie Girl]

Well, sexism is based on someone's sex/gender. LGBT are discriminated based on their sexual orientation. Hypothetically, you could be targeted based on your sexual orientation but not because of your sex/gender, or vice versa, or both. It's still discrimination, though.

LGB people are discriminated based on their sexual orientation.

Trans people are discriminated based on their gender/gender identity.

Trans discrimination is objectively closer to sexism.

[Thirsty Crow]

LGB people are discriminated based on their sexual orientation.

Trans people are discriminated based on their gender/gender identity.

Trans discrimination is objectively closer to sexism.

This is not exactly a revelation...and how is it relevant?
ALL forms of domination should be opposed and actively eliminated.

[Le Corsaire Rouge]

You could still conceivably have LGBT discrimination in a world in which sexism had been abolished. That to me suggests that they are different from each other. There are obvious relationships between them in practice, but then there are relationships between sexism and racism, too.

I would recommend that everybody here read Cheshire Calhoun's book Feminism, The Family, and the Politics of the Closet. It clearly and calmly distinguishes between sexism and homophobia, while linking everything together along axes of oppression.

[ZeroNowhere]

Well, generally sexism entails discrimination against an entire gender simply for being such; for example, if somebody were to condemn all male asexuality but be fine with female asexuality, then this wouldn't necessarily make them sexist per se, as they are only discriminating against a (rather small) subset of males, rather than all males, and sexuality is more or less not a conscious action. I think it could be useful to maintain 'sexism' in this sense, as we already have words for prejudice against transsexuals, homosexuals, etc.

[Queercommie Girl]

This is not exactly a revelation...and how is it relevant?
ALL forms of domination should be opposed and actively eliminated.

I'm just clarifying the issue a bit more.

Understand what you are fighting against first. Classification is a step towards understanding.

[Decolonize The Left]

Could LGBT opression be considered part of sexism?

LGPTQ oppression is related to but distinct from conventional sexism in the sense that sexism, as we generally understand it, is rooted in discrimination based upon gender. LGBTQ discrimination is rooted in sexual orientation which is related to gender, but distinct from it.

So they are related in that the structures of patriarchy and chauvinism often produce and encourage both sexism and discrimination based upon sexual orientation. Both forms of oppression are institutionalized and widespread, yet they should not be lumped into one as they each deserve their own space.

That said, we should obviously understand the relationships between these forms of oppression and combat them whenever possible. Yet while we do so we should be aware of the fact that these forms of oppression are unique to themselves and deserve treatment as such.

- August

[Queercommie Girl]

LGPTQ oppression is related to but distinct from conventional sexism in the sense that sexism, as we generally understand it, is rooted in discrimination based upon gender. LGBTQ discrimination is rooted in sexual orientation which is related to gender, but distinct from it.

So they are related in that the structures of patriarchy and chauvinism often produce and encourage both sexism and discrimination based upon sexual orientation. Both forms of oppression are institutionalized and widespread, yet they should not be lumped into one as they each deserve their own space.

That said, we should obviously understand the relationships between these forms of oppression and combat them whenever possible. Yet while we do so we should be aware of the fact that these forms of oppression are unique to themselves and deserve treatment as such.

- August

Question: how is trans discrimination based mainly on sexual orientation rather than gender/gender identity?

LGB shouldn't always be lumped together with T, even though they are definitely related.

[Decolonize The Left]

Question: how is trans discrimination based mainly on sexual orientation rather than gender/gender identity?

LGB shouldn't always be lumped together with T, even though they are definitely related.

That's a good point. I'm simply used to lumping LGBTQ in together as a method of discourse but you're right, trans discrimination is based entirely on gender identity which is primarily related to sexism rather than discrimination based upon sexual orientation.

I think with this point included as a revision to my previous post, that my overall analysis stands reinforced.

- August

[Victus Mortuum]

That's a good point. I'm simply used to lumping LGBTQ in together as a method of discourse but you're right, trans discrimination is based entirely on gender identity which is primarily related to sexism rather than discrimination based upon sexual orientation.

I think with this point included as a revision to my previous post, that my overall analysis stands reinforced.

- August

However, discrimination based on sexual orientation is really discrimination based on gender identity. A person only thinks that a male should like females and vice versa because the gender identities generate these distinction, just like the expected distinctions that cause problems with transgenderism. Being gay is being transgender.

[WeAreReborn]

However, discrimination based on sexual orientation is really discrimination based on gender identity. A person only thinks that a male should like females and vice versa because the gender identities generate these distinction, just like the expected distinctions that cause problems with transgenderism. Being gay is being transgender.
That is not true, being gay is being attracted to the same sex. A homosexual male feels like a male, he just is sexually attracted to other men as opposed to women. A transgender male or female feels as if they were born into the wrong sex. It has been shown that their brains are actually made up of the same chemicals that is identified to the opposite sex of their biological one. There definitely is a difference.

[Victus Mortuum]

That is not true, being gay is being attracted to the same sex. A homosexual male feels like a male, he just is sexually attracted to other men as opposed to women.

A homosexual male strongly breaks the male gender usually (and is sexually a male) and specifically breaks the sexuality-attraction of the male gender, and thus is transcending the social construct of male gender. That is why they are alienated and ostracized, because they are outside of the social constructs/expectations.


A transgender male or female feels as if they were born into the wrong sex.
No, that is being transsexual. People who want to have a different physical sexual composition are transsexual, not transgender. Transgender is a term referring to someone who transcends gender roles/constructs not physical sexual/biological features.


It has been shown that their brains are actually made up of the same chemicals that is identified to the opposite sex of their biological one. There definitely is a difference.
Correlation =/= causation. Besides, this doesn't even begin to imply anything about transgender people, though it may be related to transsexual people.

[Queercommie Girl]

However, discrimination based on sexual orientation is really discrimination based on gender identity. A person only thinks that a male should like females and vice versa because the gender identities generate these distinction, just like the expected distinctions that cause problems with transgenderism. Being gay is being transgender.

LGB and T issues are certainly strongly linked, and personally I am explicitly opposed to trans separatism. (The idea that trans issues are "complete" different from LGB issues and LGB activism can even have a negative effect on trans activism) I strongly promote LGBT unity in our struggles as a community.

But they are not the same thing either.

[Victus Mortuum]

LGB and T issues are certainly strongly linked, and personally I am explicitly opposed to trans separatism. (The idea that trans issues are "complete" different from LGB issues and LGB activism can even have a negative effect on trans activism) I strongly promote LGBT unity in our struggles as a community.

But they are not the same thing either.

I'm not arguing that they are the same thing, but that they are rooted in the same thing (the gender constructs). I'm arguing that neither of those can be resolved without the other (gender constructs must be destroyed). I'd also argue that gender constructs cannot be destroyed unless the material conditions that necessitate their existence are destroyed (the privatized family - the privatized human production industry).

[Le Corsaire Rouge]

However, discrimination based on sexual orientation is really discrimination based on gender identity. A person only thinks that a male should like females and vice versa because the gender identities generate these distinction, just like the expected distinctions that cause problems with transgenderism. Being gay is being transgender.
Sex changes are legal in Iran but homosexuality is not: Ayatollah Khomeini believed that a man's soul could be trapped in a woman's body, and vice versa. So I dispute your (rather patronising) conclusion.

[Victus Mortuum]

Sex changes are legal in Iran but homosexuality is not: Ayatollah Khomeini believed that a man's soul could be trapped in a woman's body, and vice versa.

How is that in any way relevant to my point?


So I dispute your (rather patronising) conclusion.

How was what I said patronizing at all?