Who are the anti Germans?

[Rafiq]

What and Who exactly are the "Anti-Germans?".

What is their reasoning behind supporting Zionism and Carrying American Flags?

Why do they call themselves Communists?

Does anyone on Revleft support them?

[ContrarianLemming]

anti german reasoning:

America fought Nazis in WW2

therefor
America = good

Germany = bad

American supports Israel, so, therefor

Israel = good

Modern germany = still bad
Modern America = still good, cause they fought Nazis


Pretty much cranks.

[28350]

They's craaazay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_%28communist_current%29

[Rafiq]

anti german reasoning:

America fought Nazis in WW2

therefor
America = good

Germany = bad

American supports Israel, so, therefor

Israel = good

Modern germany = still bad
Modern America = still good, cause they fought Nazis


Pretty much cranks.

Wow! What the hell is wrong with them?

But I'm confused, with that Logic they have, why do you they classify themselves as Communists, when America is very Anti-Communist, wouldn't they be Anti-Communist too?

[ContrarianLemming]

why do you they classify themselves as Communists, when America is very Anti-Communist, wouldn't they be Anti-Communist too?

Because they're cranks, it's what they do

They are worse then Posadists, worse then third worldists, they make less sense then Juchists, and you will rarely meet one, if ever, I never have.

They support the Iraq war aswell

:rolleyes:

now give me some rep.

[Rafiq]

Because they're cranks, it's what they do

They are worse then Posadists, worse then third worldists, they make less sense then Juchists, and you will rarely meet one, if ever, I never have.

They support the Iraq war aswell

:rolleyes:

now give me some rep.

:laugh: Thanks, I will be sure to not take them as seriously as I did five minutes ago :laugh:

And as for rep, will do :)

[Widerstand]

anti german reasoning:

America fought Nazis in WW2

therefor
America = good

Germany = bad

American supports Israel, so, therefor

Israel = good

Modern germany = still bad
Modern America = still good, cause they fought Nazis


Pretty much cranks.

Yeah, that's the reasoning a lot of Anti-Germans have, especially those who support the third gulf war and war in middle-east in general because of "Islamic fascism".

The justification for support of Israel is only partially true. Israel is first and foremost supported because of the historical context in which it was created, and because of the over-the-top leftist critique it faces commonly.

Historically, the Anti-German movement grew out of the Anti-Reunification movement and out of a critique of leftist Anti-Semitism, both of which are very legitimate causes. They also draw from Critical Theory, especially Adorno's categorical imperative, that "thoughts and actions have to be in a manner that Auschwitz won't repeat." Traditionally, they are part of the German autonomous movement, and could therefore be seen as Autonomous Marxists, though some of them, at least the ones I know, would position themselves closer to Anarchism.

[9]

Historically, the Anti-German movement grew out of the Anti-Reunification movement and out of a critique of leftist Anti-Semitism, both of which are very legitimate causes.

Please elaborate on "leftist Anti-Semitism"; what do you mean by it, what are examples of it, etc.


They also draw from Critical Theory, especially Adorno's categorical imperative, that "thoughts and actions have to be in a manner that Auschwitz won't repeat."Hmm.. is this why I meet so many pro-Zionists/Jewish chauvinists who are proselytes of the Frankfurt School?

If something like Auschwitz were to happen again (<this is, of course, a totally muddled way of thinking, but for the sake of argument), the victims would almost certainly not be Jews, as the conditions simply don't exist in the way that they did during the first half of the 20th century, and the trend toward greater and greater assimilation within "the Jewish communities" in the West is not going to randomly reverse itself, but will continue. More likely the victims would be Muslims, Roma, etc. I mean, fuck; the holocaust wasn't tragic because the victims were Jewish, it was tragic because the victims were innocent people. Does that not register? (rhetorical question)

[Widerstand]

Please elaborate on "leftist Anti-Semitism"; what do you mean by it, what are examples of it, etc.

http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=88

http://www.signandsight.com/features/434.html

I'm sure there are other posters (thinking of psycho) with a better understanding of the historical Anti-German critique of leftist anti-semitism. I don't exactly study Anti-German history.



Hmm.. is this why I meet so many pro-Zionists/Jewish chauvinists who are proselytes of the Frankfurt School?

I've only recently started educating myself about the Frankfurt School, so any analysis I could give here is at best incomplete. What I said about Adorno was from an Anti-German flyer about a lecture on Critical Theory.



If something like Auschwitz were to happen again (<this is, of course, a totally muddled way of thinking, but for the sake of argument), the victims would almost certainly not be Jews, as the conditions simply don't exist in the way that they did during the first half of the 20th century, and the trend toward greater and greater assimilation within "the Jewish communities" in the West is not going to randomly reverse itself, but will continue. More likely the victims would be Muslims, Roma, etc. I mean, fuck; the holocaust wasn't tragic because the victims were Jewish, it was tragic because the victims were innocent people. Does that not register? (rhetorical question)

I think it's not very unlikely that Auschwitz will repeat, but if it does, Muslims will be the victims.

[Widerstand]

http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=88

http://www.signandsight.com/features/434.html

Another pretty comprehensive article, albeit obviously biased and disagreeable on a couple of points:

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-32.htm

[progressive_lefty]

I had a tiff with some users on libcom(here (http://libcom.org/forums/anti-fascism/anti-deutsche-antifa)) about the anti-Germans. Their activism contradicts itself. I have seen videos of Zionist flags and banners at anti-Nazi rallies in Germany. I feel sorry for the left in Germany, there's not much they can do about them without being dealt with blackmail.

[Devrim]

I don`t think that they are that much different from much of the left. What they share with most of the left is taking sides in national struggles. They have just chosen a different one.

Devrim

[Sasha]

anti german reasoning:

America fought Nazis in WW2

therefor
America = good

Germany = bad

American supports Israel, so, therefor

Israel = good

Modern germany = still bad
Modern America = still good, cause they fought Nazis


Pretty much cranks.

actually not, reasoning went more; unified germany will lead to second holocaust -> germany bad ->only thing preventing second holocaust = state of israel -> israel good -> what is an thread to israel? = arabnations ergo arab nations want second holocaust -> what will prevent arabnations from making second holocaust? = US -> US wars in midle east good.


Please elaborate on "leftist Anti-Semitism"; what do you mean by it, what are examples of it, etc.


German anti-imp urban guerillia groups got their training mostly in libanon/syria and got there so exited about running with the big boys (palestenian black november mostly) that they jumped the palestinian bandwagon with a bit over enthausiasm.
during some solidarity actions with the palestinian cause some shit happend that stank more than a bit of anti-semitism. Some idiot RZ members attacked an german synogoge during the night of the kristalnacht remembrance, an bus carying israeli toerists to an former concentration camp got shot at and during several joint RAF/black november hostage actions jews got seperate from the other hostages and shot first.
this triggerd an valid debate in the german left about leftist anti-semitism and terrorism in general, this evolved into the anti-german critique.


its important to note though that the anti-germans are not an homogenious group.
for example you can already define 3 very distinct kinds of anti-germans that all deserve an difrent approach.

1- moderate anti-germans/anti-nationale;
(although mostly marxists they hold on nations/israel opinions not that far removed from mine)
in short: all nations states are bad and need to be done away with, the reforming of an strong, big nation state in the midle of europe was an bad idea. The existence of the state of israel is by now an hystoric fact. As long as nation states exist, israel has as much right to exist as anyother state. And an war won by its arab neighbour states will propably have catastrofic consequences for the israeli proletariat.
The kibutzim project was an intresting experiment in "socialist" autonomus comunity forming. And no mather what, israel is still one of the only democratic nation state in the midle east (besides libanon and turkey) surrounded by authoritarian nation states, there is no reason to support the latter over the former like some/most anti-imps do.
(note that i, and so do some moderate anti-g's, vehermently oppose the occupation and israels apartheid system)
very OK people to be on an antifa demo with, just dont go into any political discussions with them afterwards.

2. egotronic kiddo's
teens with an blackblock fetish and and preference for electro (egotronic is an populair anti-german electro band), lifestylists who wave israeli flags and glorify the dresden massacar and the RAF because it winds up their parents and pisses of the nazi's big time. actual political knowledge close to zero.
the fad is dying out, greek style insurectionism is the new israel.

3. Bahama's crowd
the hardcore anti-germans, during the whole anti-german debate they took such weird positions that someone, expressing the feelings of the majority of the autonomus left, asked them why thei didnt "fuck off to the bahama's"?. They then started their own critical magazine called bahama's and like any isolated group completly radicalised. By now they support the EDL as an proletarian movement against islamofascism, write positve articels about former hitler jugend member pope ratzinger because he is an force against islamification etc etc.
beyond help, best to ignore them, they are now getting in their 40's so very soon no'one takes them serious anymore anyway.

[Edelweiss]

It should be noted that not only the US support for Isreal is a reasoning of many anti-Germans to support US imperialism. Their reasoning is much the same as the reasoning of the neo-conservatives, only with a Marxist paint: to redeem and civilize the barbaric, underdeveloped countries, especially the Arab countries, by force and bring them (bourgeois) democracy, which is, according to Marx, the pre-condition for communism. Marx for example did as well support early US imperialism by siding with them in a war against Mexico. Forgive me, if I can't provide sources now. But believe me, he did. Of course, after the historical knowledge we all have about the consequences of US imperialism in the 3rd world, we all know how wrong this stance is. Nevertheless it's not as absurd as it might seem on a first look.

[Widerstand]

1- moderate anti-germans/anti-nationale;

Why wouldn't you have a political discussion with them? From your display, they seem to take the most reasonable stance on all of this. It's also close to my stance tbh, except that I would only label myself Anti-German when asked about my opinion of Germany.



2. egotronic kiddo's
teens with an blackblock fetish and and preference for electro (egotronic is an populair anti-german electro band), lifestylists who wave israeli flags and glorify the dresden massacar and the RAF because it winds up their parents and pisses of the nazi's big time. actual political knowledge close to zero.
the fad is dying out, greek style insurectionism is the new israel.

Egotronic is really, really, really popular amongst the German left, even in social democratic circles. Also, I would like to add, that this is since Egotronic's lyrics are never pro-Israel nor pro-US. Their lyrics are only Anti-German, in the same vein that Slime was Anti-German (Schweineherbst, Deutschland Muss Sterben), eg. criticizing German nationalism. This is what makes them so attractive.

I'm totally not defending Egotronic just because I wear an Egotronic shirt right now. I'm just saying that a lot of Egotronic listeners are ignorant about the Anti-German movement.



3. Bahama's crowd

Never heard of them.

[Edelweiss]

Well, I love Egotronic, tbh. Raven gegen Deutschland! ;) And I'm afraid, they actually are "confessing" anti-Germans.


Never heard of them.

http://www.redaktion-bahamas.org - the no. publication of the "hardcore anti-Germans".

[Widerstand]

And I'm afraid, they actually are "confessing" anti-Germans.

I know.

On a related note, I also enjoy MaKss Damage despite all the valid critique one could come up with now ;D

[Sasha]

Why wouldn't you have a political discussion with them? From your display, they seem to take the most reasonable stance on all of this. It's also close to my stance tbh, except that I would only label myself Anti-German when asked about my opinion of Germany.

you are german, you are used to discussing politics with germans, for us dutchies the complete and dogamtic lack of nuance is infuriating.
for most political germans an political stance like i have (best sumed up by the leval quote in my sig) is unbeareable. they algo "but marx said in page somuchandsomuch and then adarno said thisandthat" and i go "sorry, havent read either beyond the first couple of pages, found it boring as fuck"



I'm totally not defending Egotronic just because I wear an Egotronic shirt right now.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Widerstand]

you are german, you are used to discussing politics with germans, for us dutchies the complete and dogamtic lack of nuance is infuriating.
for most political germans an political stance like i have (best sumed up by the leval quote in my sig) is unbeareable. they algo "but marx said in page somuchandsomuch and then adarno said thisandthat" and i go "sorry, havent read either beyond the first couple of pages, found it boring as fuck"

Luckily I haven't had many such experiences. I agree though, a lot of texts are boring as fuck. I personally enjoy discussions or lectures much more :S Anyway, I force myself to read certain stuff to have a more solid understanding of what's going on around me. But I have to admit, most of the theory I read, I read only because I suspect it could expand on, reaffirm or put into context some positions I already hold or agree on. Or because I think it could offer some insight into actual practice. But it rarely does the latter :/

[thälmann]

i think the problem is just the hole left in germany didnt recognise the danger they are. and know they are really a problem, working together with other bourgois. in the area i live they work together with police.
another thing is know that great parts of them are openly racist, which falls together with this islamophob mood in the hole german population.

the problem is not theyre marxist, they just pick some single parts out of it, and mix this with standart liberal ideology.

[Sasha]

Luckily I haven't had many such experiences. I agree though, a lot of texts are boring as fuck. I personally enjoy discussions or lectures much more :S Anyway, I force myself to read certain stuff to have a more solid understanding of what's going on around me. But I have to admit, most of the theory I read, I read only because I suspect it could expand on, reaffirm or put into context some positions I already hold or agree on. Or because I think it could offer some insight into actual practice. But it rarely does the latter :/

you see, there you go reaferming all my stereotypes about grundlich und punktlich germans :lol:

last time we where at the demo's in dresden i overheard the (anti-g) people form the AZ we where crashing calling us dutchies "proli" and i dont think they meant it as the compliment we took it :D

[Edelweiss]

in the area i live they work together with police.

I have much more experience with anti-German fighting the police at demos/actions than anti-Germans working together with the police...

[Rafiq]

They give a bad reputation to the left by supporting Imperialists like America, though!

All they do is confuse the HELL out of people, and give Revolutionaries an excuse to join the Fascists.

They confuse:scared: people to the point where they question whether the left supports Imperialism, and if Communism allows Imperialism and Nationalism :scared::scared:

[Ocean Seal]

"Down with Germany/Solidarity with Israel/For Communism!"
What is wrong with them. They don't support one country because at one point it was a racist imperialist mess, but they'll support a country that is currently a racist imperialist mess?
Maybe they didn't get the memo but Israel is not communist and the occupation of Pallestine is not communist.

[Widerstand]

i think the problem is just the hole left in germany didnt recognise the danger they are. and know they are really a problem, working together with other bourgois. in the area i live they work together with police.

Uhm, do you have any evidence of this? I for one don't recall me working with the police and I wouldn't know of any Anti-D that did.

Usually the ones calling the police on anyone are Social Democrats, Trots or MLs, and usually the one they call police on are Anarchists. On a related note: Didn't pretty much all the Hamburger MLs side with the Anti-Imps against the Anti-Ds and against the FAU in the Bündnis Gegen Rechts?



another thing is know that great parts of them are openly racist, which falls together with this islamophob mood in the hole german population.

I agree. Anti-Germans should take a strong stance on Anti-Arab attitudes, especially in regards to Islamophobia's connection to the German nationalism they hate so much.


the problem is not theyre marxist, they just pick some single parts out of it, and mix this with standart liberal ideology.

Anti-Germans are Trots? Also, fuck dogmatism.


you see, there you go reaferming all my stereotypes about grundlich und punktlich germans :lol:

I have no clue how you get to that conclusion :huh:

But I am personally neither gründlich nor pünktlich. I'm the antithesis of the German stereotype, in a way. I mean I still drink beer.


I have much more experience with anti-German fighting the police at demos/actions than anti-Germans working together with the police...

Same.


They give a bad reputation to the left by supporting Imperialists like America, though!

All they do is confuse the HELL out of people, and give Revolutionaries an excuse to join the Fascists.

They confuse:scared: people to the point where they question whether the left supports Imperialism, and if Communism allows Imperialism and Nationalism :scared::scared:

So how are they different from everyone supporting Stalin, China, North Korea, etc.?


What is wrong with them. They don't support one country because at one point it was a racist imperialist mess, but they'll support a country that is currently a racist imperialist mess?

Uhm. No. The Anti-German critique of Germany is far more than "at one point" was a racist imperialist mess". Which is a wrong past tense by the way, as Germany still is a racist, imperialist mess. German nationalism is sickening, and the German left is hardly free of it. Fuck football culture.


Maybe they didn't get the memo but Israel is not communist and the occupation of Pallestine is not communist.

Nobody said that either was. Read the articles I linked earlier and psycho's tl;dr post.

[Tjis]

All they do is confuse the HELL out of people, and give Revolutionaries an excuse to join the Fascists.


How are Antigermans an excuse to join the fascists?

[Rafiq]

How are Antigermans an excuse to join the fascists?

Let's have a hypothetical Situation.

My name is Johnny and I live in Germany. I am 19 Years of age and I am completely new to political ideologies.

I don't know jack about Communism, Fascism, Left, Right, Socialism, or even Capitalism.

But I recently traveled to Palestine and witnessed the horrors suffered by the Palestinian people.

Now I see an Anti-German.

I go up and see he is protesting, I ask, "What political Ideal do you guys follow?"

He sais "Communism".

Now Johnny here, as far as he's concerned, these guys represent Marxism, so He Stays away from Marxism and classify's it as Imperialist, Murdering and Destructive.

Now Johnny doesn't like those things, so he learns about the enemy of Communism.

Fascism.

So Johnny finds some Fascists who teach him all sorts of Stuff, and feed him all sorts of BS.

Now Johnny is screwed up, thinking that a fight against Communism is a fight against Zionism.

So now he is marching down the street carrying a Nazi Flag with a Fascist uniform, with his head shaved completely and an SS tattoo on his Neck yelling "Heil Hitler!".


That's how.

[Palingenisis]

How are Antigermans an excuse to join the fascists?

People carrying banners with the face of Bomber Harris on it and the slogan "No tears for Krauts!" is going to have what effect on any German with an ounce of self-respect?

[Tjis]

People carrying banners with the face of Bomber Harris on it and the slogan "No tears for Krauts!" is going to have what effect on any German with an ounce of self-respect?

Those things are disgusting, but by no means an excuse to join a fascist organization.

[Widerstand]

People carrying banners with the face of Bomber Harris on it and the slogan "No tears for Krauts!" is going to have what effect on any German with an ounce of self-respect?

And yet the whole of the German left, including Anti-Imps and the more mainstream, reformist branches as far as I know, have opposed Nazi Marches planned on the day of the Dresden Bombings.

Most people in Germany support the Allies' attacks on Germany as a necessary evil and oppose Hitler's regime, including those that are strongly xenophobic and reactionary.

[Rafiq]

Those things are disgusting, but by no means an excuse to join a fascist organization.

Maybe not to us, but to a person who is new to politics, it is a perfect reason to become Fascist.

[thälmann]

@un: yeah this thing with police for example is happening in hamburg. but please dont talk in an open forum about internal things like in the "bündnis gegen rechts". and if you mean the antigerman alliance thats not the alliance against rightwing.

the conflict there was not only between antiimps and antigerman,the side of the so called antiimps included almost the whole migrant left and lots of anarchist groups and persons,( which of course all oppose imperialism, linke every left or progressive person should) and of course most of the communists. shamefully the FAU walked besides usa and israel flags...
but i think such concrete cases are boring for others, so we can talk about this via personal message

[Edelweiss]

They don't support one country because at one point it was a racist imperialist mess, but they'll support a country that is currently a racist imperialist mess?

The justification for anti-German "solidity with Israel" is, as mentioned before, justified with anti-Semitism and the holocaust, and the state of Israel being a guarantee that another holocaust won't ever happen again. The support is Israel's right to exist is shared not only by anti-Germans within the German left though, many leftists in germany do that, only that anti-Germans are mostly entire uncritical about crimes of the state of Israel, or even are supporting them as a necessary evil.

The resolution of the contradiction between anti-German anti-national theory and support of Zionism can best be described with the anti-German slogan "am längsten lebe Israel" ("longest live Israel").

[Os Cangaceiros]

Marx for example did as well support early US imperialism by siding with them in a war against Mexico. Forgive me, if I can't provide sources now. But believe me, he did.

Allow me:


In America, we have witnessed the conquest of Mexico and we have rejoiced in it. It is...an advance when a country which has hithero been...rife with civil wars, and completely hindered in it's own development...is forcibly drawn into the historical process. It is to the interest of it's own development that Mexico will in future be placed under the tutelage of the United States.

- Friedrich Engels, "The Movements of 1847"

[Dimentio]

The ultimate problem with the Anti-German movement is that it seems to be founded on sentimental historicism and American WW2-propaganda of Shirerite proportions. There is nothing exceptionally "evil" about German history or culture which could explain national socialism, and if anything, the only unique thing was the application of ideological memes and methodologies previously only utilised in the colonies.

I want to reiterate 9's point and say that the Holocaust must never be forgotten, but not because the majority of the victims were Jews, but because all victims were human beings. A mystification and fetischisation of a historical event to legitimise current transgressions is perverse, and is like killing the victims again by legitimising the murder of others in their names.

That is especially as Israel was founded on the idea that Non-European nations could be chopped up and divided as the great powers pleased.

[Achara]

Allow me:



- Friedrich Engels, "The Movements of 1847"

You should probably have read the footnote which reads:

In assessing these events in his article Engels proceeded from the general conception that it was progressive for patriarchal and feudal countries to be drawn into the orbit of capitalist relations because, he thought, this accelerated the creation of preconditions tor a proletarian revolution (see Note 252). In subsequent years however, he and Marx investigated the consequences of colonial conquests and the subjugation of backward countries by large states in all their aspects. In particular, having made a thorough study of the US policy in regard to Mexico and other countries of the American continent, Marx in an article, “The Civil War in the North America” (1861), described it as expansion in the interests of the then dominant slave-owning oligarchy of the Southern States and of the bourgeois elements in the North which supported it, whose overt aim was to seize new territories for spreading slavery.

[Os Cangaceiros]

You should probably have read the footnote which reads:

In assessing these events in his article Engels proceeded from the general conception that it was progressive for patriarchal and feudal countries to be drawn into the orbit of capitalist relations because, he thought, this accelerated the creation of preconditions tor a proletarian revolution (see Note 252). In subsequent years however, he and Marx investigated the consequences of colonial conquests and the subjugation of backward countries by large states in all their aspects. In particular, having made a thorough study of the US policy in regard to Mexico and other countries of the American continent, Marx in an article, “The Civil War in the North America” (1861), described it as expansion in the interests of the then dominant slave-owning oligarchy of the Southern States and of the bourgeois elements in the North which supported it, whose overt aim was to seize new territories for spreading slavery.

Where does that footnote come from? EDIT: Nevermind, it's on marxists.org. Duh.

I pulled that quote from a book called Homage to Chiapas. And I'm not making any sort of statement on Marx's beliefs, btw, just trying to be helpful.

[Achara]

You want to be helpful?

Make me a fucking coffee.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't drink coffee.

I have some bourbon, though, if you want that.

[Achara]

No thanx, three nights in a row would be pushing it.

[Achara]

As long as nation states exist, israel has as much right to exist as anyother state.

As lOnG aS MiCroNesIa ExIsTs, tHen So ShoUld IsRaeL!!!

[Palingenisis]

And yet the whole of the German left, including Anti-Imps and the more mainstream, reformist branches as far as I know, have opposed Nazi Marches planned on the day of the Dresden Bombings.

Most people in Germany support the Allies' attacks on Germany as a necessary evil and oppose Hitler's regime, including those that are strongly xenophobic and reactionary.

So much for "anti-nationalism"....Left-Communists for all their many sins wouldnt.

Personally I do think attacks on Germany were a necessary evil...I just dont consider the Allied war crimes (which include the deliberate starvation of a few million Germans after the war was over...) as necessary evils.

[thälmann]

to ww2: almost all left people here in germany support the attacks on dresden and so on. and i do it also, but i think its not to party about or to say old people cant be sad about that( which anti gs do). but of course it would be better if they bombed the railroad to ausschwitz and other things.

[Widerstand]

The ultimate problem with the Anti-German movement is that it seems to be founded on sentimental historicism and American WW2-propaganda of Shirerite proportions. There is nothing exceptionally "evil" about German history or culture which could explain national socialism, and if anything, the only unique thing was the application of ideological memes and methodologies previously only utilised in the colonies.

Uhm, I agree that all of these exist and definitely are issues. I even agree that the Anti-German movement as a whole is largely problematic. But the point remains, that German nationalism became an increasing issue in the wake of reunification and continues to be one perpetuating all spheres of the left. This is what originally spawned the Anti-Germans, and what many "moderate Anti-Germans" (including me; to use psycho's terms) still focus on. As I said earlier, I call myself Anti-German only when asked about my opinion on Germany.

[thälmann]

yes, but as i mentioned before, the happenings after the reuninifacation couldnt be an explanation for them today. a lot of comrades who were at the big " germany, never again" demo in frankfurt 1990, are today those who are called antiimps by the antigermans.
i just want to say that to be antigerman in the true meaning of the word, although i think its totally wrong, has nothing to do with those pro-imperialist zionist racist pigs today.

[Widerstand]

yes, but as i mentioned before, the happenings after the reuninifacation couldnt be an explanation for them today. a lot of comrades who were at the big " germany, never again" demo in frankfurt 1990, are today those who are called antiimps by the antigermans.
i just want to say that to be antigerman in the true meaning of the word, although i think its totally wrong, has nothing to do with those pro-imperialist zionist racist pigs today.

It has to do with them insofar as they are the only part of the German left that doesn't yell "GERMANY FUCK YEAH!" at every soccer world cup, doesn't advocate blanket violence against Israeli citizens and diaspora Jews, and doesn't support the export of German values and the German nation state as "better than the alternative" entities.

[Barry Lyndon]

It has to do with them insofar as they are the only part of the German left that doesn't yell "GERMANY FUCK YEAH!" at every soccer world cup, doesn't advocate blanket violence against Israeli citizens and diaspora Jews, and doesn't support the export of German values and the German nation state as "better than the alternative" entities.

Actually virtually all the racist violence in Germany in recent years has been directed towards Muslim immigrants. But the anti-Germans don't give a fuck about that, because their just towelheads, and moreover, are the 'new Nazis' themselves!!

[Widerstand]

Actually virtually all the racist violence in Germany in recent years has been directed towards Muslim immigrants. But the anti-Germans don't give a fuck about that, because their just towelheads, and moreover, are the 'new Nazis' themselves!!

And I criticize the broader Anti-German movement for their Anti-Muslim attitudes. Do you have more baseless accusations about my person and politics or can we move on?

[BeerShaman]

Well, they are freaks! And they hold an opportunist stance.

[thälmann]

what does a zionist view of the middle east have to do with attacks on israeli civilians and diaspora jews!! to be antizionist doesnt mean you want to do anything bad to jewish people, or thinking suicide bombs in discos are cool. i mean come on... its just that the antigermans support the oppresion of the palestine people, the war against irak, the GERMAN occupation of afghanistan and so on. theyre reactionary scum, so simple is that.

[Widerstand]

what does a zionist view of the middle east have to do with attacks on israeli civilians and diaspora jews!! to be antizionist doesnt mean you want to do anything bad to jewish people, or thinking suicide bombs in discos are cool. i mean come on... its just that the antigermans support the oppresion of the palestine people, the war against irak, the GERMAN occupation of afghanistan and so on. theyre reactionary scum, so simple is that.

And again:


Kunzelmann's main word was "fight", not "emancipation" or anything like that. He wrote: "Palestine is for the BRD what Vietnam was for the Americans. The Left has failed to comprehend this. Why? The Jew complex." His argument was that because the Left was coming to terms with the causes of Auschwitz, it was failing to realise that the real enemy was sitting in Israel and that one should show solidarity with the Palestinians. This was a complete break in the highly complex debate taking place with the West German Left, which was critical of Israeli politics, but with an eye to the fact that the situation in Palestine after 1937/39 had been shaped by the Zionists trying to accommodate hundreds of thousands of European Jews. It was not a black and white issue. Kunzelmann blankly refused to accept this nuanced analysis. This was a break with the analytical tradition of the SDS, and an attempt to lead parts of the West German Left into a partisan struggle against the Jews in Germany.

http://www.signandsight.com/features/434.html


The anti-Zionism that worries us is not the same as criticism of Israel. Israel is occupying and settling Palestinian land. In order to sustain this occupation, it uses racist violence and humiliation against the people that live in the West Bank. The occupation and some of Israel’s actions should be, and are, criticised by a large number of Israelis, Jews, and people around the world who are bothered by injustice. It is not those who protest against the injustice of the wall and the checkpoints, which control every stretch of road in the West Bank, who we worry about. It is not the just Palestinian aspiration to independence and statehood that worries us.

The anti-Zionism that worries us does not object to the policies of Israeli governments in the way that we might object to our own government’s policies. Rather, it understands those policies to be the necessary outcome of the existence of Israel. No other Israeli policy is conceivable to the anti-Zionists. So they do not criticise what Israel does. Rather, they criticise Israel’s very existence.

[...]

Left anti-Zionism inflates Israel into a symbol for all that is wrong with a world dominated by US imperialism. The details of the Roadmap or other actual, real-life political developments are rendered insignificant because the conflict is understood only though this symbolism. It is Manichaeism: the world is a great struggle between heroes and villains, only to be resolved by a great revelation and final undoing.

Conversely, the Palestinians have come to symbolise all victims, and their struggle has become the defining struggle against imperialism. Symbolic Zionists and victims replace real Jews and Palestinians in the left anti-Zionists’ imagination.

[...]

We worry about the anti-Zionists that declare Jewish nationalism and only Jewish nationalism to be essentially racist. The reality is that Jewish nationalism, like all nationalism, contains an inter-woven tapestry of different threads and traditions. Some of these are right wing, some are ultra-nationalist, and many more are routine mixes of romance, desperation and abstract notions of nationhood mixed with a nod in the direction of a better tomorrow. Historically, many Israeli nationalists, thought of themselves as socialists. They wanted to build a new kind of state where Jews would work for themselves and would neither exploit nor be exploited.

Anti-Zionists, however, use a simple shorthand: Zionism equals racism. The effect of this is to encourage and to license people to treat those Jews who think that Israel has the right to exist as though they were racists. And the vast majority of Jews do support the right of Israel to exist. Many think of Israel as protection from a future genocidal threat. In this way, anti-Zionism sets itself up for a fight with Jews.

Anti-Zionism is not motivated by anti-semitism. It is motivated by concern for the oppressed. But it nevertheless creates a movement and a worldview that singles out Jews as being a central force for evil and imperialism in the world. Naturally, such movements are beginning to spawn people who are indeed motivated by anti-semitism. And this is where anti-Zionism begins to borrow from older forms of anti-semitism. It insists that Israel’s privileged role as the partner of American imperialism is protected by Jewish influence amongst the neo-conservatives and in American public life more generally. This easily sounds like, and becomes like, the Jewish conspiracy that was the myth at the heart of the ‘protocols’. It still sounds like it, and becomes like it, even if the word ‘Jew’ is replaced by the word ‘Zionist’.

[...]



http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=88


Communism in East Germany, as elsewhere, denied the right to practice the Jewish religion and sought to eradicate religion in general, including Judaism. East Germany's anti-Semitic policies first became evident in January 1953 when the Stasi - the state security service - confiscated documents of the Jewish communities, searched the homes of Jewish leaders, and spoke of a "Zionist conspiracy." After the Six Day War, East Germany officially adopted an anti-Zionist stance. However, no serious data on East German anti-Semitism is available before the reunification in 1989.

[...]

For the New Left, nothing could discredit anti-Zionism. Even after Israeli athletes were taken hostage and murdered during the Munich Olympic Games in 1972, the leftists strengthened their solidarity with the Palestinian terror organizations.

West German New Leftists participated in the 1976 hijacking of an Air France plane to Entebbe, Uganda, where Jewish and Israeli passengers were singled out from the others by a German terrorist. The German Left ignored the hijacking and subsequent rescue operation by Israeli forces, and the German Communist Party in West Germany published a solidarity letter addressed to Ugandan dictator Idi Amin.

[...]

Also in 1982, the leftist newspaper taz called the Palestinians "the new Jews" and accused Israel of a "reverse Holocaust" in seeking to carry out the "final solution of the Palestinian question."12

[...]

After the fall of the Berlin Wall and the German reunification, initial surveys in 1989 revealed a huge gap in anti-Semitic attitudes between East and West Germany.13 This, however, was a distortion fostered by a superficial distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Since it has become clear that East German "anti-Zionism" merged quickly with West German "anti-Semitism" into a homogeneous whole.14 In the Cold War era, readers of East German newspapers and also Western Communist publications were accustomed to "criticisms" of Israeli policies that used anti-Semitic caricatures and clichés. Protests by Jewish community leaders in East Berlin never appeared in public.15

[...]

But since 2000 the Jewish community is no longer safe and has been targeted by anti-Israeli activity, from graffiti and hate mail to demonstrations against the war in Iraq that ended up facing Jewish-community buildings or even a memorial like the Alte Synagogue in Essen. Jews in Germany are somehow held as hostages for Israeli policies, no matter what their own views.

Leftist anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist clichés have also become the common, acceptable property of conservatives, liberals, as well as leftists in Germany since 2000, and are well evident in the German media.17 The trend intensified after the September 11 attack in the United States, which gave rise to new anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that blamed the event on the Mossad. Many books developing such theories were published in Germany, and they were all bestsellers.18 Another outlet for such sentiments was the anti-war demonstrations of 2002, as well as anti-globalization gatherings.

[...]

In 2002, Freie Sender Kombinat, a radio station in Hamburg run by students and leftist groups, interviewed a Palestinian named Ahmed who described Israelis as "the Nazis of today," and compared the Holocaust to the Palestinian history "under the Zionists." He appealed to Germany to end the Wiedergutmachung and claimed that about ten billion Marks had been paid for each Israeli citizen. The presenters did not question him or even correct the absurd figure.

In October 2001, the far-Left academic journal Contraste published an article by the sociologist Christian Siegrist that claimed: "there are too many Jews in American politics. I think it is legitimate if they are overrepresented in science, this is somehow traditional, but it is not good if American Jews are involved in Middle Eastern politics." He also asserted: "The atrocities against the Palestinian people are a humiliation for the whole Arab world.... They have suffered worse than what the people in New York experienced on that one day."19

On 28 September 2002, the Palestine Committee in Stuttgart held a symposium. No protest was heard as the following statements were made:

"We have to support the Palestinians unconditionally. This means: Solidarity with suicide bombers.

A two-state solution is no solution for Palestine. In the end the reactionary state of Israel and Sharon must fall. Israel must be eliminated.

In Germany some parts of the peace movement are under the control of the Zionists. They do not think independently; the Jews are pulling the strings.

Western politicians are under the control of the banks and holding companies. They need the aggressive and reactionary regime in Israel to get more and more power in that region. Sharon has nothing to fear since the banks are behind him. Is there any region in the world that is not under the rule of globalized capitalism?... Behind the Jews stands the financial capital - the reeking capitalism."

This gathering included leftist groups as well as the anti-globalization movement, Association for the Taxation of Financial Transactions for the Aid of Citizens (ATTAC).201

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-32.htm

*emphasis added

[Dimentio]

Uhm, I agree that all of these exist and definitely are issues. I even agree that the Anti-German movement as a whole is largely problematic. But the point remains, that German nationalism became an increasing issue in the wake of reunification and continues to be one perpetuating all spheres of the left. This is what originally spawned the Anti-Germans, and what many "moderate Anti-Germans" (including me; to use psycho's terms) still focus on. As I said earlier, I call myself Anti-German only when asked about my opinion on Germany.

What exactly is so uniquely bad about German patriotism? I would claim that all patriotisms in general are bad (even though the patriotism for the future unified Earth is making some sense).

If you openly hate your own society, how should you be able to transform it? Instead of shouting "Down with Germany", shout "Up with Earth".

[syndicat]

Zionism is not necessarily religious. Many Israeli Jews are secular despite their support for Zionism. Also, it would be worthwhile noting that historically there was a class-based division between the right-wing Zionists and labor Zionism. It was the labor Zionists who were more dominant in the earlier decades of Israel. Zionism is a colonialist, racist ideology, highly influenced by late 19th century and early 20th century European colonialist concepts. in 1947 Jews owned only 11 percent of the land in Palestine. the naive UN committee that proposed partition in 1947 had no solution for how the Palestinians would be protected. I would recommend reading Ilan Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine". Pappe is a Jewish Israeli historian.

Pappe shows that David Ben Gurion and his executive committee aimed to capture, through military force, as much of Palestine as they could in 1947. In the area the UN gave to the Jews, the Jews were only a slight majority. This was unacceptable to the creators of the Zionist state. Hence they carried out a well-planned,systematic campaign of violence to forcibly expel 500,000 Palestinians from the region where their ancestors had lived for centuries. they destroyed over 400 Palestinian villages. By the standards of present-day international law, this is considered a "crime against humanity."

Thus Isreal was created through a massive crime against humanity. And if you look at Israeli policy ever since, they have aimed at creeping annexation and continued pushing out of the Palestinians, as with the separation barrier which makes life much worse for the West Bank residents and takes more Palestinian land. They converted Gaza into an indigent prison. By making life as difficult as possible the aim is to force out as many Palestinians as possible. Within Israel the Palestinians do not have equal rights. Most of the land is owned by Jewish agencies and Palestinians are prohibited from living there. Jews anywhere in the world have a right of return to Israel but Palestinians who were born there have no such right. The Israeli plan for the West Bank has been to create broken up Bantustans as a "control the natives" strategy, much like South Africa did.

This is why it's quite appropriate to compare Israel with South African apartheid. Of course it's true that other states have engaged in similar policies in the past. the USA was created by displacement and genocide and violence against the native American Indians. And Israel has been created in exactly the same way. But this should not be used as an excuse for Israel. The movement for boycott and sanctions against Israel, to demand equal rights for the Palestinians, is what we should support.

So, does UN support this movement for equal rights for the Palestinians? Note that there is no way to support equal rights for Palestinians and also support "the Jewish State". the "Jewish State" was a racist colonialist settler state project...and it has only been able to be successful in this project due to the massive support it has received from UK (in beginning) and USA imperialism. USA has an interest in Israel's existence due to its desire to maintain client states there in the mideast, with its giant oil reserves.

The quote by the German who attributes American support for Israel to "the Jews" is open to the charge of anti-semitism. He doesn't understand politics here in the USA. One of the biggest supporters of Israel in recent years in the USA is the Christian right, that is, the fundamentalist Christians....because they are supporters of an imperialist, aggressive American foreighn policy. But the Christian right are simply allies or cannon fodder of the capitaliste elite in the USA. The capitalist elite, in both is more liberal and more conservative factions, are supporters of the imperialist role of the USA, as a butt-kicker for corporate capital around the world. And Isreal is useful as a dependable military ally in a difficult but important region. If it was just American Jews that Isreal depended on, they would not be getting billions every year in aid from the USA.

One possible solution to the present impasse in Israel/Palestine would be for Israel to annex all the occupied territories and acknowledge Palestinians equal rights, creating a more genuinely democratic Israel. But it would no longer be a "Jewish state." A state defined as the state of only one ethnic group is racist by definition. this would be like defining the USA as a "white state".

[Rafiq]

Germany is just like any other Western nation, whether it be France, Britain, or Italy.


I don't see why the dumbass's in Germany would form an "Anti-German" movement! When their government is just like any other EU state.


Might as well make a fucking "Anti-Mongolian" movement because you are scared Mongolia will rise again as one of the most brutal empires in History

[Rafiq]

While we're at it, let's also make an Anti-Roman movement, to prevent a future Roman Empire!

Theres all sorts of "Anti-'s" on the list!

[Palingenisis]

Look the Hitlerite nightmare came about not because Germans are particularly evil but because the working class was so strong and militant there and yet not able to cease power.

[Widerstand]

What exactly is so uniquely bad about German patriotism? I would claim that all patriotisms in general are bad

I'm not affected by patriotism of other nations as much as by German patriotism. Living in Germany, I am in direct contact with German nationalism, hence I emphasize struggling against it. I know that this leaves me open to the charge of not being internationalist, but if we are honest, everyone puts greatest emphasis on their own struggles in their own country / state / region / town / commune (except TWMs).


So, does UN support this movement for equal rights for the Palestinians? Note that there is no way to support equal rights for Palestinians and also support "the Jewish State".

As I said before, I oppose Theocracy, the oppression of Palestinians and nation states in general. But I disagree that Palestinian oppression is a necessary facet of Israel's existence, and I disagree that a Palestinian state under Hamas' rule, which seems the logical conclusion of abolishing Israel under current conditions, would not be oppressive of Jews in a similar manner.


A state defined as the state of only one ethnic group is racist by definition.

Yes, and I oppose that aspect of Israel, which is what I would call legitimate Anti-Zionism.

[syndicat]

As I said before, I oppose Theocracy, the oppression of Palestinians and nation states in general. But I disagree that Palestinian oppression is a necessary facet of Israel's existence, and I disagree that a Palestinian state under Hamas' rule, which seems the logical conclusion of abolishing Israel under current conditions, would not be oppressive of Jews in a similar manner.



but now you're being evasive. as I said, Zionism was never a specifically religious ideology. Most Israeli Jews are secular. a Palestinian state under Hamas does not define the only alternative to the present Israeli state, which is defined as a "Jewish state", which is a racist concept.

moreover, you didn't answer my question. I asked if you support the Palestinian civil rights movement. This is a movement for equal rights for Palestinians within Israel. The boycott, divestment and sanctions movement aims at equal rights for Palestinians in Palestine/Israel in general.

And it's no good saying you don't like states in general because here it's a question of the racist character of the Israeli state since its inception. Someone who didn't want to support the sanctions against South African apartheid could also have argued "well all states are equally bad" or something like that...but then that would be an invalid reason for not supporting a popular struggle for equal rights, which also is bound up with the oppression of a particular working class and peasant population.

[Widerstand]

but now you're being evasive. as I said, Zionism was never a specifically religious ideology. Most Israeli Jews are secular. a Palestinian state under Hamas does not define the only alternative to the present Israeli state, which is defined as a "Jewish state", which is a racist concept.

I said that opposition to a specifically "Jewish state" conception of Israel would be legitimate Anti-Zionism in my book.

A Palestinian state under Hamas is not the only alternative to present day Israel, no, but it is the most likely outcome of an immediate and absolute abolition of Israel, which has been called for, and which I said I oppose.



moreover, you didn't answer my question. I asked if you support the Palestinian civil rights movement. This is a movement for equal rights for Palestinians within Israel. The boycott, divestment and sanctions movement aims at equal rights for Palestinians in Palestine/Israel in general.

I do support the Palestinian civil rights movement. I don't think boycott tactics are particularly useful, and I distrust the boycott Israel campaigns in general because a lot of them have been co-opted by right-wing conspiracy theorist nuts.

[thälmann]

@un: " and an attempt to lead parts of the West German Left into a partisan struggle against the Jews in Germany. "

WHAT?? is this a bad joke or what...

never anybody tried to start a left guerilla war against jews in germany. you shouldnt take care of wolfgang kraushaar and other right wingers talking shit about the 60s and 70s. the only thing happened is a strange anarchist group with state paid provokateurs inside tried to explode a bomb in a jewish community house in 69. thats really bad, but its stupid to think the left in germany would start such actions against jews in germany.

the RAF for example never made attacks against israel, because of german history. mostly every comrade in germany was very careful with the topic of antisemitism.

[Widerstand]

@un: " and an attempt to lead parts of the West German Left into a partisan struggle against the Jews in Germany. "

WHAT?? is this a bad joke or what...

Uhm, there was the bomb in the Jewish center and an attack on a bus full of Jews (if I recall correctly), I think they are both mentioned in the article.

[Rafiq]

Uhm, there was the bomb in the Jewish center and an attack on a bus full of Jews (if I recall correctly), I think they are both mentioned in the article.

So how does that relate to "trying to lead the West German Left into a partisan struggle against the Jews"?

[Widerstand]

So how does that relate to "trying to lead the West German Left into a partisan struggle against the Jews"?

Why are you acting as if I said that?

[Widerstand]

So how does that relate to "trying to lead the West German Left into a partisan struggle against the Jews"?


Why are you acting as if I said that?

Addendum: That he told people to violently attack German Jews surely doesn't prove these claims, but it sure makes them believable.

[thälmann]

as i understand it, he didnt say that, but kunzelman is an asshole, anyway.
as i mentioned the bomb was put inside the center by an" V-mann" ( inside germany intelligence service man ).
the attacked bus, was an action by a palestine group, and was carried out in bulgaria. its just that a german women, who was part of the left scene in the 70s, supported that action.inside the bus were russians on their way to israel, to become israeli citizens. a really bad action, but has nothing to do with religion.
http://www.sooderso.net/zeitung/sos14/s10aklump.shtml

[Ocean Seal]

Uhm, I agree that all of these exist and definitely are issues. I even agree that the Anti-German movement as a whole is largely problematic. But the point remains, that German nationalism became an increasing issue in the wake of reunification and continues to be one perpetuating all spheres of the left. This is what originally spawned the Anti-Germans, and what many "moderate Anti-Germans" (including me; to use psycho's terms) still focus on. As I said earlier, I call myself Anti-German only when asked about my opinion on Germany.
Why not just call yourself an anti-nationalist? That is much more reasonable than just attacking one nation.

Also on your previous point that Germany is on the same plane as Israel, I would like to point out that the state is Israel is an occupation and that the blockade on Gaza is apartheid. I don't understand why it is necessary to support Israel to oppose Germany.

[Widerstand]

Why not just call yourself an anti-nationalist? That is much more reasonable than just attacking one nation.

As I said at least a dozen times already, I only refer to myself as Anti-German when asked about my opinion of Germany.



Also on your previous point that Germany is on the same plane as Israel, I would like to point out that the state is Israel is an occupation and that the blockade on Gaza is apartheid. I don't understand why it is necessary to support Israel to oppose Germany.

It isn't necessary. The support of Israel grew out of critique of the German left's tendency towards Anti-Semitism and Adorno's Critical Theory, both of which were prevalent in the anti-nationalism movement spawned during the German reunification. It has since then become a defining aspect of what is called "The Anti-German movement", which grew out of said movement.

[Rafiq]

It's ridiculous how Anti-Germans aren't Restricted but Maoist Third Worldists are.

[Palingenisis]

It's ridiculous how Anti-Germans aren't Restricted but Maoist Third Worldists are.

They are both as bad as each other.

[Rafiq]

They are both as bad as each other.

Exactly, which is why Anti-Germans should be Also Restricted, if Maoist Third Worldists are.

[Barry Lyndon]

Exactly, which is why Anti-Germans should be Also Restricted, if Maoist Third Worldists are.

Because First Worldist Leftcom racists laugh off anti-Arab racism. Their only concerned if vitriol is aimed toward them- namely, white people.

[Niccolò Rossi]

Because First Worldist Leftcom racists laugh off anti-Arab racism. Their only concerned if vitriol is aimed toward them- namely, white people.

Pray tell, who are these 'leftcoms'?

Nic.

[Devrim]

Because First Worldist Leftcom racists laugh off anti-Arab racism. Their only concerned if vitriol is aimed toward them- namely, white people.

This is a pretty outrageous slander. and it is what you expect from people who have little in the way of political argument.

Of course people who follow our site would see that one of the top articles on our English webpage at the moment (http://http://en.internationalism.org/node/4015) is about anti Muslim racism.

Devrim

[Edelweiss]

This is a pretty outrageous slander. and it is what you expect from people who have little in the way of political argument.

Of course people who follow our site would see that one of the top articles on our English webpage at the moment (http://http://en.internationalism.org/node/4015) is about anti Muslim racism.

Devrim

well, if you have no political argument it's comfortable to accuse all who disagree with you as "racists". It's really the only thing left for a ideologically bankrupt tendency...

[4 Leaf Clover]

anti-germans are joke

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/Hamm02.jpg

[Aeval]

I lived with a load of anti-germans last year, whenever I spoke to them about politics I was truly baffled.

The most worrying thing with them was that they seem to see Germany and German people as inherently bad in a way that no other country or people can be. They literally disregarded the notion that any other nation would have been capable of doing something like the Holocaust - and I don't mean physically or logistically capable, I mean that they're something inherent about Germans that made them do it and makes them capable or likely to do it again :confused:

And apparently the EDL seem "more logical" than most of the left in the UK :( As other people have said on here, they seem to either be oblivious to, or wilfully ignore the fact that it was "Türken raus" and "Fick die Türkei" that were sprayed on houses down my street and all over the city. I can understand their point about people on the left slipping into anti-Semitism, some of the things said with regards to Israel have slipped into being more about Jews than Israel as a state which is worrying, but they are pretty hypocritical in the way that they'll condemn "anti-imps" for doing that whilst equally dismissing the oppression felt by Muslim people, or just people perceived to be Muslim, in their own country.

I tried to point out that waving nationalistic symbols (US and British flag etc) is pretty disrespectful to all the people who have suffered or are suffering under those nations, and also the people from those countries who are fighting against nationalism but guess what - it doesn't matter, because nothing in this world is more important to the anti-german than Germany, and therein lies the paradox; there is no oppression in this world worse than German oppression (except against Muslims of course!) and if you don't understand that it's because you just aren't fortunate enough to be German, otherwise you'd understand and then you could get off on hating your country as much as they do.

I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, but after 6 months of hearing the semi-nationalistic "woe-is-me" shit coming out of their mouths I really don't have any time for anti-germans.

[hatzel]

They seem to penetrate pretty deep, though. Or, hatred of Germany does, even if not held by anti-Germans per se. Judging by the posters on the wall of the AZ Erfurt, a good...I don't know, maybe every third one was about hating Germany specifically, and the marches / protests / whatever those things are on the reunification day.

I'd also heard that there would be an anti-German presence at the Tierbefreiungskongress I just happened to be passing through, but I wasn't clever enough to actually identify if there were anti-Germans, because I don't really know the identifying features. Anybody know if anti-Germans have a tendency to also hold vegan / animal liberation beliefs? I mean, is it more or less or equally as common as amongst more conventional leftists in Germany?

Whilst we're on that subject...what about the vegan neo-Nazis? Does anybody know if they somehow link their veganism to their neo-Nazism (as veganarchists do), or if they're two totally distinct ideas. Neo-Nazis who just so happen to be vegans, rather than veganazis or something. Excuse that terrible portmanteau.

[Palingenisis]

Because First Worldist Leftcom racists laugh off anti-Arab racism. Their only concerned if vitriol is aimed toward them- namely, white people.

I find Leftcoms hopelessly reductionist and often mechanically dogmatic...However unlike the Anti-Germans they do apply their principles pretty much across the board. However much you or I might disagree with them they are something other than the Anti-Germans and Paltypus and that should be respected.

Also the ICC isnt the ONLY bunch of LeftComs....One Left-Communist group supported the 9/11 attacks and went as far as to call Osama Bin Laden a Social-Democrat! :confused:

[Barry Lyndon]

This is a pretty outrageous slander. and it is what you expect from people who have little in the way of political argument.

Of course people who follow our site would see that one of the top articles on our English webpage at the moment (http://http://en.internationalism.org/node/4015) is about anti Muslim racism.

Devrim

Then ban the Anti-Germans. Then there's no more argument.
The Anti-Germans are worse then MTW's because they cheer on existing racist power structures. The MTW's just engage in rather impotent 'kill whitey' hatred.

[Barry Lyndon]

I find Leftcoms hopelessly reductionist and often mechanically dogmatic...However unlike the Anti-Germans they do apply their principles pretty much across the board. However much you or I might disagree with them they are something other than the Anti-Germans and Paltypus and that should be respected.

Also the ICC isnt the ONLY bunch of LeftComs....One Left-Communist group supported the 9/11 attacks and went as far as to call Osama Bin Laden a Social-Democrat! :confused:

Ok, I apologize for throwing around hyperbole. I just find it pretty ridiculous that the MTW's are banned by anti-Gemrnas aren't.

Wow, some left coms are fucking nuts.

[Sasha]

I'd also heard that there would be an anti-German presence at the Tierbefreiungskongress I just happened to be passing through, but I wasn't clever enough to actually identify if there were anti-Germans, because I don't really know the identifying features.

uber designer blackbloc, mostly with really fancy "the north face" windbreakers, israeli flags offcourse and if they are out of their actvism outfit an preference for hawai-shirts (presumably an thing linked to the bahama's magzine)


Anybody know if anti-Germans have a tendency to also hold vegan / animal liberation beliefs? I mean, is it more or less or equally as common as amongst more conventional leftists in Germany?

no, like everywhere most german vegans/animal liberation actvists are from the anarchist spectrum


Whilst we're on that subject...what about the vegan neo-Nazis? Does anybody know if they somehow link their veganism to their neo-Nazism (as veganarchists do), or if they're two totally distinct ideas. Neo-Nazis who just so happen to be vegans, rather than veganazis or something. Excuse that terrible portmanteau.

yes, a lot of the nazi's involved in anmialrights stuff do it mostly out of an recruting thing and because its an good cover to agitate against religious slaughtering (jews and muslims) and globalisation (anti-McDonals campaigns) but those who take it to actual veganism do connect it with this whole "heimat/blud und bodem" thing.

[Edelweiss]

no, like everywhere most german vegans/animal liberation actvists are from the anarchist spectrum

I know also quiet a few from the anti-imp spectrum...

[Ravachol]

I'd also heard that there would be an anti-German presence at the Tierbefreiungskongress I just happened to be passing through, but I wasn't clever enough to actually identify if there were anti-Germans, because I don't really know the identifying features. Anybody know if anti-Germans have a tendency to also hold vegan / animal liberation beliefs? I mean, is it more or less or equally as common as amongst more conventional leftists in Germany?


There's a lot of Anti-German critique regarding animal liberation or veganism in general, as examplified by the laughably pathetic pamphlet 'Veganismus vs Kommunismus' (http://de.indymedia.org/2002/11/32966.shtml) which goes along the lines of agitating against veganism because it prohibits kosher slaughtering... :rolleyes:

[hatzel]

Hah! I'll be sure to give that one a read, sure sounds pretty hyoo-myrrh-us to me. I'll get back to you when I'm done!

[Widerstand]

They seem to penetrate pretty deep, though. Or, hatred of Germany does, even if not held by anti-Germans per se. Judging by the posters on the wall of the AZ Erfurt, a good...I don't know, maybe every third one was about hating Germany specifically, and the marches / protests / whatever those things are on the reunification day.

I get that this is a quite hard concept to grasp for people from cultures with a long-running patriotic traditions, but I have not been raised in such an environment, I have, luckily enough, not received any pro-patriotism conditioning, in short: I do not want to or feel need to celebrate my nation. I don't have any positive feelings for my state, the government, it's history or it's military. Why would I not protest stupid celebrations and military parades?

In fact, this is not isolated to the Anti-German spectrum, as you mentioned. Germans have a long tradition of protesting militarist marches or glorifications of military entities. A good example of this were the massive, violent protests in Bremen, 1980, against the military celebration of Germany's 25th NATO anniversary.



I'd also heard that there would be an anti-German presence at the Tierbefreiungskongress I just happened to be passing through, but I wasn't clever enough to actually identify if there were anti-Germans, because I don't really know the identifying features. Anybody know if anti-Germans have a tendency to also hold vegan / animal liberation beliefs? I mean, is it more or less or equally as common as amongst more conventional leftists in Germany?

Whilst we're on that subject...what about the vegan neo-Nazis? Does anybody know if they somehow link their veganism to their neo-Nazism (as veganarchists do), or if they're two totally distinct ideas. Neo-Nazis who just so happen to be vegans, rather than veganazis or something. Excuse that terrible portmanteau.

Veganism and animal rights spread through all spheres of the German left, especially the Autonomous scene. Anti-Germans are part of the Autonomous scene.

As for veganism and fascists, I would guess this is majorly a east-european phenomenon stemming from the fascist straight edge scene, which is pretty big there, but also prevalent in other places. It's a fuse of hardline straight edge's most reactionary aspects (patriarchal attitudes, pride&honor cults, violence against "foreign crews", the resulting blood&soil attitudes, strict monogamy, etc.) and classical fascism.


Then ban the Anti-Germans. Then there's no more argument.
The Anti-Germans are worse then MTW's because they cheer on existing racist power structures. The MTW's just engage in rather impotent 'kill whitey' hatred.

Just make a ban request for me already if you feel like having to restore your ego, but quit crying around here.


uber designer blackbloc, mostly with really fancy "the north face" windbreakers

What? Almost everyone in Germany wears North Face/Wolfskin/other "outdoor" brands windbreakers, especially at demos :|

[thälmann]

something funny : syndikalist FAU together with antigerman during the conflict in hamburg.

http://syndikalismus.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/antideutschehamburgerfau.jpg

[Widerstand]

something funny : syndikalist FAU together with antigerman during the conflict in hamburg.

http://syndikalismus.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/antideutschehamburgerfau.jpg

Eh. Yeah and ? :s

[Widerstand]

Eh. Yeah and ? :s

Quite good blog btw.

But anyway, let's try to keep Hamburg-related discussion out of here.

[thälmann]

i just want to show how strange the development in germany is...nothing to do with local things

[Widerstand]

i just want to show how strange the development in germany is...nothing to do with local things

Aight.

Well, yes. A lot of groups all over the country split over Anti-Imp/Anti-D drama.

[Devrim]

Then ban the Anti-Germans. Then there's no more argument.
The Anti-Germans are worse then MTW's because they cheer on existing racist power structures. The MTW's just engage in rather impotent 'kill whitey' hatred.

Ban the Anti-Germans from what, Barry?

From our organısatıon? Of course we don't have anti-Germans in our organisation to ban.

From RevLeft? It ıs hardly down to us.

Where do you want me to ban them?

I would oppose banning them from RevLeft anyway, but then I would oppose banning anyone, including MTW's who identifies as a self identifies as a revolution socialist.

That doesn't mean I have any sympathy whatsoever for the ideas of the Anti-Germans, which as you say " cheer on existing racist power structures".


I think that third-worldism is a totally reactionary anti-working class ideology, with nothing to do with communism.
However, I don't think people should be restricted for it.

Devrim

[MellowViper]

I've never heard of them, but being an anti-German communist makes about as much sense as being an anti-semitic, since there have been so many people influential in socialism that were German and/or Jewish.

[Widerstand]

I've never heard of them, but being an anti-German communist makes about as much sense as being an anti-semitic, since there have been so many people influential in socialism that were German and/or Jewish.

Oh lord, just get the fuck out, really. Are you saying the fact that communists were born on the piece of land called Germany has any actual relation to the German nation state? This is about as ridiculous an excuse for pro-Germanism I have ever heard.

Are you further saying that opposition to a nation state and to nationalism is comparable to discrimination/racism?

I mean, really?

Also, fun quote:

"If we were to begin with the German status quo itself, the result – even if we were to do it in the only appropriate way, i.e., negatively – would still be an anachronism. Even the negation of our present political situation is a dusty fact in the historical junk room of modern nations. If I negate powdered pigtails, I am still left with unpowdered pigtails. If I negate the situation in Germany in 1843, then according to the French calendar I have barely reached 1789, much less the vital centre of our present age.

Indeed, German history prides itself on having travelled a road which no other nation in the whole of history has ever travelled before, or ever will again. We have shared the restorations of modern nations without ever having shared their revolutions. We have been restored, firstly, because other nations dared to make revolutions, and, secondly, because other nations suffered counter-revolutions; on the one hand, because our masters were afraid, and, on the other, because they were not afraid. With our shepherds to the fore, we only once kept company with freedom, on the day of its internment.

[...]

War on the German state of affairs! By all means! They are below the level of history, they are beneath any criticism, but they are still an object of criticism like the criminal who is below the level of humanity but still an object for the executioner."

- Karl Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htm)

[syndicat]

something funny : syndikalist FAU together with antigerman during the conflict in hamburg.


guilt by association because they marched in the same demo? gimme a break.

[Widerstand]

guilt by association because they marched in the same demo? gimme a break.

No. The Hamburger FAU has some Anti-German members, has taken Anti-German stances, and this has been a sort of big debate in the Hamburg and the broader German syndicalist scene - see various discussions on the blog this image was taken from (sadly all German). As far as I gathered, the Hamburger FAU is pretty much the only local FAU group with those tendencies though.

The trend of German confederations splitting over Anti-D / Anti-Imp disputes sadly is prevalent everywhere though.

[Сталин]

I don't hold anti-German sentiment at all. Not all Germans were Nazis, and not all Nazis were German. I relate Zionist Israel to Nazi Germany often. Zionism to me = Jewish Nationalism. I have many Palestinian friends who have family members who were killed or deported because they are not Jewish.

[freepalestine]

No. The Hamburger FAU has some Anti-German members, has taken Anti-German stances, and this has been a sort of big debate in the Hamburg and the broader German syndicalist scene - see various discussions on the blog this image was taken from (sadly all German). As far as I gathered, the Hamburger FAU is pretty much the only local FAU group with those tendencies though.

The trend of German confederations splitting over Anti-D / Anti-Imp disputes sadly is prevalent everywhere though.
so if you/they(antigermans??) are for some backward reason, pro-israel-does that give excuse for those antigermans leftists to be anti-palestinian and supporting crimes against them

[kid communist]

They ain't communists;Marx was German!Are these dudes saying that Marx was a fascist?:confused:They're stupid

[Tim Cornelis]

These anti-Germans actually seem to be the embodiment of what the far-right claims the far-left is: Pro-Jewish, anti-German ("anti-white"), and a conspiracy to kill white culture under the pretense of communist revolution, of course (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism).

Hmmm... anti-Germans seem to be so nuts, they must be far right extremists pretending to be pro-Jewish anti-German communists... :lol:

EDIT: old thread is old...

[Sasha]

EDIT: old thread is old...


indeed, closed