Romantic Love is a social construct

[Widerstand]

... by design enforcing monogamy thereby turning sexuality and sympathy into commodities. We are all the victims.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

Yeah, but it is still great! :D

[gorillafuck]

I think that in communism everyone will be polygamous and promiscuous.

PROVE ME WRONG

[communard71]

I dunno about that. There are stories of romantic love from thosands of years ago. I guess if you mean romantic love since the Stone Age or something? Or are you talking about the kitsch stuff of modern Valentines day?

[Pretty Flaco]

I like monogamy

[Vendetta]

You're just lonely.

[Widerstand]

I think that in communism everyone will be polygamous and promiscuous.

PROVE ME WRONG

My point exactly.


I dunno about that. There are stories of romantic love from thosands of years ago. I guess if you mean romantic love since the Stone Age or something? Or are you talking about the kitsch stuff of modern Valentines day?

Those are socially constructed too.


You're just lonely.

My point exactly.

[¿Que?]

What have you been reading? Seriously, I'd like to know.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Polygamous relationships are a social construct.

[Il Medico]

I think that in communism everyone will be polygamous and promiscuous.

PROVE ME WRONG
Sounds fine to me.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Will lonely guys get laid in communist society? :lol:

[Jimmie Higgins]

... by design enforcing monogamy thereby turning sexuality and sympathy into commodities. We are all the victims.Certainty views about "proper" romantic love have been very fluid. Will it change again without classes? Most definitely, but the important thing is that there should be no restrictions on mutual relationships of any kind.


Will lonely guys get laid in communist society? http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/laugh.gifNope :D

[Widerstand]

What have you been reading? Seriously, I'd like to know.

http://www.theorie.org/titel/659_polyamory

and

http://www.crimethinc.com/books/er.html

Well, haven't been reading the first one so much, but I listened to a speech by the author.

[Widerstand]

Nope :D

Fuck that let's go back to Patriarchy everyone?

[Il Medico]

Will lonely guys get laid in communist society? :lol:
Probably not. However, I'm sure we could set up free classes or something for them. Poor buggers.

[¿Que?]

http://www.theorie.org/titel/659_polyamory

and

http://www.crimethinc.com/books/er.html

Well, haven't been reading the first one so much, but I listened to a speech by the author.
Well, the second article didn't seem to have anything relevant, whilst the first was in some other language (german?:confused:). Anyway, read my blog, you may find it interesting...

[Widerstand]

Well, the second article didn't seem to have anything relevant, whilst the first was in some other language (german?:confused:). Anyway, read my blog, you may find it interesting...

Expect Resistance has reoccurring discussions on polygamy vs. monogamy.

And yeah, the first one is a German book. :D

Which entry of your blog?

[¿Que?]

Expect Resistance has reoccurring discussions on polygamy vs. monogamy.

And yeah, the first one is a German book. :D

Which entry of your blog?
The one titled "A Place to Think." Currently, it is just some loose notes.

[9]

Will lonely guys get laid in communist society? :lol:
not the ones posting in this thread, tbh.

[Widerstand]

not the ones posting in this thread, tbh.

I find your analysis lacking.

[ContrarianLemming]

Love will wither away with revolution

[9]

I find your analysis lacking.

especially you.

[Widerstand]

especially you.

Now you're just being polemic.

[gorillafuck]

not the ones posting in this thread, tbh.
I think you're forgetting the very insightful work by Engels, "Origin Of Family, Private Property, And The State" where he says.....


Everyone will get laid because the revolution will abolish the nuclear family unit because that's what will happen because capitalism will be gone which will cause that to happen.

[ContrarianLemming]

fuk yeah^

[Widerstand]

Engels is a true friend of the sexually frustrated workers.

[ContrarianLemming]

I just quoted that in chatroom :)

[gorillafuck]

I just quoted that in chatroom :)
You should be proud

[Widerstand]

You should be proud

I was proxy proud for them :)

[ContrarianLemming]

lets all be proud of Engels, the god of erotica of Marxism.

[Widerstand]

lets all be proud of Engels, the god of erotica of Marxism.

We need a strong phallus of the proletariat errecting the working class to it's rightful place!

[Jazzratt]

I can be romantically in love with more than one person....

[Quail]

We need a strong phallus of the proletariat errecting the working class to it's rightful place!
I can see this thread going downhill soon..:lol:

Romantic stuff is fun, whether monogamous or not. There's always that thrill of getting to know someone beautiful.

[9]

I think you're forgetting the very insightful work by Engels, "Origin Of Family, Private Property, And The State" where he says.....


Originally Posted by Engels
Everyone will get laid because the revolution will abolish the nuclear family unit because that's what will happen because capitalism will be gone which will cause that to happen.

Except that you're conveniently leaving off the following portion, where he puts this statement in context:



Originally Posted by Engels
Everyone will get laid because the revolution will abolish the nuclear family unit because that's what will happen because capitalism will be gone which will cause that to happen. The only people who won't get laid will be mthrfckrs, particularly German people.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Getting laid is a social construct.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

lol, I think we'll just see what we're seeing now in society. A mixture of a little bit of everything... some things that are treated as normal; some things that are just seemingly odd; and unfortunately, some things that are not and will hopefully never become tolerated... primarily pedophilia.

[Widerstand]

I can see this thread going downhill soon..:lol:

*uphill

:)



Romantic stuff is fun, whether monogamous or not. There's always that thrill of getting to know someone beautiful.

meh...

I don't at all like the mystification of love, or rather romance, as something metaphysical/divine, since it often goes along with a degradation of those who are not experiencing it or have other conceptions of it.


Except that you're conveniently leaving off the following portion, where he puts this statement in context:

So you're hating Germany? Why me too! Why don't you come join us?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Antideutsche_rassisten.jpg


I can be romantically in love with more than one person....

Most people I've talked to associate the phrase 'romantic love' with a 2-partner monogamous relationship, however.

[9]

So you're hating Germany?

Actually I was hating German people. I don't really hate German people, though; but I do hate Germany, to the extent that I hate any other imperialist state.


Why me too! Why don't you come join us?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Antideutsche_rassisten.jpg

fucking christ. seriously can't get over how insane that is. don't forget the anti-fascist Israeli flag. :rolleyes:

[Widerstand]

Actually I was hating German people. I don't really hate German people, though; but I do hate Germany, to the extent that I hate any other imperialist state.

Next to my Uni there's a monument that reads "Germany must live even if we have to die."

Fuck yeah Germany.:rolleyes:



fucking christ. don't forget the anti-fascist Israeli flag. :rolleyes:

I'm not a fan of oppressive nation states. I do however have solidarity with the Israeli people.

[9]

I don't know what that means; what does it mean to "have solidarity with the Israeli people"?

[ContrarianLemming]

I don't know what that means; what does it mean to "have solidarity with the Israeli people"?

saying you have solidarity with a group of people is the catchphrase of the left.

[Widerstand]

I don't know what that means; what does it mean to "have solidarity with the Israeli people"?

It means that I'm both acknowledging the grave injustices committed by the state Israel, as well as the fact that the Israeli proletariat is just as exploited as any other, is, by threat of repression, forcefully militarized and is under severe political pressure from foreign, often largely polemic and unreflected criticism, inner disputes, and terrorist attacks. I don't think that the strict anti-Israeli stance large parts of the left hold is justifiable, and in fact it borders national chauvinism, if not leftist anti-semitism.

[ContrarianLemming]

I have solidarity with you, german fascist.

[Quail]

I don't at all like the mystification of love, or rather romance, as something metaphysical/divine, since it often goes along with a degradation of those who are not experiencing it or have other conceptions of it.

I'm not really mystifying it, just stating that I enjoy getting to know a new partner. It's not as fun to think about it as a result of evolution and brain chemistry :tt2:

[9]

the Israeli proletariat is just as exploited as any otherOkay.


is, by threat of repression, forcefully militarized and is under severe political pressure from foreign, often largely polemic and unreflected criticism, inner disputes, and terrorist attacksI'm not sure what this means, particularly the parts in boldface; could you elaborate?


I don't think that the strict anti-Israeli stance large parts of the left hold is justifiable,I don't know what you mean about a "strict anti-Israeli stance". I know a lot of leftists are vehemently anti-Israel, and I think its perfectly justified. I think its important not to let other instances of severe oppression - for example, the treatment of Kurds in Turkey - go under the radar, but that isn't a question of being less anti-Israel, less anti-Zionism. Obviously anti-Zionism has to be predicated first and foremost on opposition to one's own ruling class.



and in fact it borders national chauvinism, if not leftist anti-semitism.In my experience, "leftist anti-Semitism" is a totally bullshit term, which was coined by Zionists to pathologize legitimate opponents of Zionism by insinuating that they hate Jews, or that they hate themselves in the case of anti-Zionist Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Jewish_Thought_and_the_New_Anti-Semitism).

[gorillafuck]

It means that I'm both acknowledging the grave injustices committed by the state Israel, as well as the fact that the Israeli proletariat is just as exploited as any other, is, by threat of repression, forcefully militarized and is under severe political pressure from foreign, often largely polemic and unreflected criticism, inner disputes, and terrorist attacks.
That's like expressing solidarity with the US because there have been terrorist attacks here. Fact is, Israel is a western-installed brutal apartheid state. And pressure on Israel? HA, Israel hasn't ever abided to one UN resolution directed at them, and nothings happened for it. No consequences. The international pressure against them is all talk, no substance.

And no, not all proletariats are exploited equally. They are all exploited and should unite against exploitation, but to say that the Israeli working class is "just as exploited" as the working class in Haiti is ridiculous.


I don't think that the strict anti-Israeli stance large parts of the left hold is justifiable, and in fact it borders national chauvinism, if not leftist anti-semitism.It's not anti-semetic.

[Quail]

I think some people are confusing being against the Israeli state with being against the Isreali people.

[communard71]

Polygamous relationships are a social construct.

I agree. So, everything we are and do is a social construct past our primitive origins. Loyalty, honor, faith, etc., these are social constructs too? Or are they organic creations from the depths of our thinking minds? I'm not sure.

[Os Cangaceiros]

it borders national chauvinism, if not leftist anti-semitism.

That sounds like some anti-deutsch bologne, right thar.

[Reznov]

I think that in communism everyone will be polygamous and promiscuous.

PROVE ME WRONG

I don't think so.

What if you fall deeply in love with someone and cannot bear sleeping with anyone else? :blushing:


Until a couple of months later, then I understand where your coming from.

[Pretty Flaco]

I was on page one and it was some joke topic by some lonely bastard and now I skipped to page 5 and we're talking about fucking israel.

wtf

[Magón]

Will lonely guys get laid in communist society? :lol:

If not by a real woman, then by your very own, clean as you keep her/him, SEX BOT!!! :tt1: :lol:

[Achara]

It means that I'm both acknowledging the grave injustices committed by the state Israel, as well as the fact that the Israeli proletariat is just as exploited as any other, is, by threat of repression, forcefully militarized and is under severe political pressure from foreign, often largely polemic and unreflected criticism, inner disputes, and terrorist attacks. I don't think that the strict anti-Israeli stance large parts of the left hold is justifiable, and in fact it borders national chauvinism, if not leftist anti-semitism.IRONY: you starting a thread satirizing views on monogamy, only to end up exposing your (real) shitty views on Israel.

[Weezer]

We need a strong phallus of the proletariat errecting the working class to it's rightful place!

Kim Sung beat us to it. :(

http://www.revleft.com/vb/picture.php?albumid=356&pictureid=3031

[9]

IRONY: you starting a thread satirizing views on monogamy, only to end up exposing your (real) shitty views on Israel.

I know, right?

[kitsune]

I'm not really mystifying it, just stating that I enjoy getting to know a new partner. It's not as fun to think about it as a result of evolution and brain chemistry :tt2:

That's real magic to me. We can feel all these amazing things, love and attraction and desire and bonding, and we do it by producing and processing chemicals. Dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, vasopressin. I have an emotion factory in my head!

[Widerstand]

Okay.

I'm not sure what this means, particularly the parts in boldface; could you elaborate?

by threat of repression: The Israeli military largely consists of conscripts, serving for 3 to 4 years, and recallable in case of war until 30 years after conscription. Refusal to conscript leads to several months of prison. Of course this doesn't apply to certain troops like the elite squad that attacked the flotilla, and there is also the possibility to serve your military time in 'non-combative' departments, e.g. sanitary or computer-related work.

is under severe political pressure - This applies both to the Israeli state as to the Israeli populace. By political pressure I'm not talking about economic sanctions, obviously.

foreign, often largely polemic and unreflected criticism - By this I mean your average leftist "fuck Israel", "all Israels are murders", "Israel has no right to exist" (obviously no nation state has, but that's not what they mean), "Israelis are fascist", "Israel's politics are a recreation of the holocaust", etc. rambling. I'm not sure in what quantity or quality these exist outside of Germany, but the crass position some German leftists hold, which is a strictly pro-Arab Anti-Israeli, sometimes even pro-Islamic fundamentalist one, makes me sick to the core.

inner disputes - The Israel public is by no means homogeneous. Attempts to downgrade/abandon the settlements are heavily met by fierce, often militant resistance from settlers, although they may be supported by other parts of the populace. Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_unilateral_disengagement_plan



I don't know what you mean about a "strict anti-Israeli stance". I know a lot of leftists are vehemently anti-Israel, and I think its perfectly justified. I think its important not to let other instances of severe oppression - for example, the treatment of Kurds in Turkey - go under the radar, but that isn't a question of being less anti-Israel, less anti-Zionism. Obviously anti-Zionism has to be predicated first and foremost on opposition to one's own ruling class.

No, I'm talking about incomplete understanding of Israel's standing, generalizing the Israeli populace as a homogeneous mass, and uncritical blanket accusations, to the point where everything Israeli/Jewish is seen as evil. Again, I don't know how much that exists outside of Germany.



In my experience, "leftist anti-Semitism" is a totally bullshit term, which was coined by Zionists to pathologize legitimate opponents of Zionism by insinuating that they hate Jews, or that they hate themselves in the case of anti-Zionist Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Jewish_Thought_and_the_New_Anti-Semitism).

No.


That's like expressing solidarity with the US because there have been terrorist attacks here. Fact is, Israel is a western-installed brutal apartheid state. And pressure on Israel? HA, Israel hasn't ever abided to one UN resolution directed at them, and nothings happened for it. No consequences. The international pressure against them is all talk, no substance.

No. The USA's situation isn't comparable to Israel's at all. Also, political pressure != economic sanctions. Don't think all this "no substance talk" has no effect on Israeli politics, it has to the extent that it tenses the Israeli decision makers in a way that they become either overcareful or overly radical, and that it creates in the populace a sentiment of "everyone being on their ass", which leads to increased nationalism, support for the military and anti-Arab attitudes.



And no, not all proletariats are exploited equally. They are all exploited and should unite against exploitation, but to say that the Israeli working class is "just as exploited" as the working class in Haiti is ridiculous.

Surplus value is being extracted = they are exploited. Yes their living conditions are better than in some nations and worse than in other nations. I don't know about the amounts of surplus value extracted, but it makes sense that it's less than of people in sweatshops, so under this aspect they may be 'less exploited' than certain other workers.



It's not anti-semetic.

I said it "borders ... if not leftist anti-semitism."


I think some people are confusing being against the Israeli state with being against the Isreali people.

A lot of the left do. It's perfectly evident in this thread, actually. People imply I supported the actions of the Israeli state or military when I explicitly stated I view them as "grave injustices".


That sounds like some anti-deutsch bologne, right thar.

Correct good sir.


IRONY: you starting a thread satirizing views on monogamy, only to end up exposing your (real) shitty views on Israel.

My views on Israel are that it's an imperialist, apartheid regime that should be abolished and opposed just as any other nation state. I don't think I've ever said any different anywhere on this board.

What's your problem with that?

[Stand Your Ground]

I think that in communism everyone will be polygamous and promiscuous.

PROVE ME WRONG
Everyone will/should just do as they please.

I would stay with one person with communism (assuming it happens in my lifetime).

[gorillafuck]

No. The USA's situation isn't comparable to Israel's at all. Also, political pressure != economic sanctions. Don't think all this "no substance talk" has no effect on Israeli politics, it has to the extent that it tenses the Israeli decision makers in a way that they become either overcareful or overly radical, and that it creates in the populace a sentiment of "everyone being on their ass", which leads to increased nationalism, support for the military and anti-Arab attitudes.
Israel's promotion of nationalism, militarism, and anti-Arab attitudes has nothing to do with international pressure against it. It has to do with them being an imperialist colonialist state.

[Honggweilo]

Israel's promotion of nationalism, militarism, and anti-Arab attitudes has nothing to do with international pressure against it. It has to do with them being an imperialist colonialist state.

hear hear, i thought these fucking anti-german tendencies died out by now, especially after the mindnumbing reactionary articles from Bahamas (anti-d bible) last year. Most anti-germans completely ignore the economic colonial paracitism on the palestianan working class, its control of all palestian inports and exports, its three layer apartheit law (isreali, arab-isreali and arab), state sponsered far-right militias, ect.

for UN



Die EDL-Internetseite gibt auf die selbst gestellte Frage „Wer ist die English Defence League?“ eine ausführlichere Antwort: „Die EDL [...] wurde aus Frust über den Mangel an entschiedenem Vorgehen der britischen Regierung gegen extremistische muslimische Prediger und Organisationen wie Islam4UK oder Hizb ut Tahrir gegründet. Wie viele Bürger Englands und des restlichen Vereinigten Königreiches setzten wir viele Jahre auf unsere Regierung und haben abgewartet [...]. Wir haben genug von der Ignoranz unserer Regierung gegenüber dem Problem selber [...]. Die fördert lieber eine politisch korrekte Kultur mit Nachsicht für Dschihad-Prediger. Nur ein paar Beispiele von vielen sollten ausreichen, um die zerstörerische Wirkung dieser Nachsicht auf unser Leben zu demonstrieren. Eines von ihnen bezieht sich darauf, dass in einem Land, das zwar weitgehend säkular, doch offiziell immer noch christlich ist, Krippenspiele an vielen Schulen verboten wurden, um Muslime nicht zu beleidigen. Darüberhinaus wird Halal-Fleisch, gegen das man viele Einwände aus Gründen der Tierquälerei geltend machen könnte, als einzige Option in vielen Schulen angeboten. [...] Wie stark das Englischsein in England ausgegrenzt wird, verdeutlicht sich daran, dass der St. Georgs-Tag in vielen Städten und Gemeinden nicht mehr anerkannt ist und die St. Georg-Flagge [gemeint ist die rot-weiße Fahne Englands, S.P.] von einigen sogar verboten wurde, weil sie beleidigen könnte. Diese Kapitulation vor muslimischen Extremisten breitet sich im ganzen Land aus. Wir denken, es ist an der Zeit, dass die Menschen gegen diesen islamistischen Angriff und die politische Korrektheit, die diesen zu beschwichtigen versucht, für die englische Kultur aufstehen sollten. Aus diesem Grund werden wir zusätzlich zu unseren Demonstrationen gegen jede Verwaltung oder lokale Regierung protestieren, die sich an unseren traditionellen englischen Feiern, von Weihnachten bis zum St. Georgstag, zu schaffen macht.“
Die angeführten Beispiele sind nicht an den Haaren herbeigezogen, sie sind seit Jahren britische Realität. Und es werden immer mehr und immer absurdere Kotaus vor dem Islamismus gemacht: Als besonderer Höhepunkt darf das Einreiseverbot für den Holländer Geert Wilders von Anfang 2009 gelten. Zur Begründung für diesen einmaligen Vorfall im Umgang mit einem EU-Parlamentarier innerhalb der EU wurde wie zur Illustration der von der EDL beklagten „Nachsicht“ und „Kapitulation“ die Gefährdung der öffentlichen Sicherheit Großbritanniens angeführt.
(..)

One nation – one law

Dass sich Antifaschismus und britischer Nationalismus nicht ausschließen, der Patriotismus sich gegen den Faschismus im allgemeinen und den Nationalsozialismus im besonderen gar als wirksames Gegengift erwies, wollen britische Linke bis heute nicht wahr haben – nicht zuletzt, um über das eigene komplette Versagen damals schweigen zu können. Das gipfelte darin, dass die britische Linke links von Labour sich neben den britischen Faschisten als die erbittertsten, zum Glück aber weitgehend einflusslosen Feinde Winston Churchills erwiesen.

[Achara]

My views on Israel are that it's an imperialist, apartheid regime that should be abolished and opposed just as any other nation state.

What's your problem with that? My problem is that you seem to think that the singling out of Israel has more to do with the lefts hatred of the jooz/national chauvinisms, rather than the fact that we're not some wish-washy liberals like yourself, but Marxists, and to Marxists to argue that since no states are legitimate, then as long as other states exist, so should Israel relies on bourgeoisie right to begin with. Further, its hippy liberalism because it ignores the fact that no, (OMG), not all nation states are equal in power or nature (maybe you're too obsessed with the UN to see that?), and whilst its not the job of communists to equalize those power relations, its certainly our job to focus our attention on the most severe and disgusting examples of capitalist imperialism and oppression.

This is why you don't have groups protesting to abolish the Micronesian state.

Whilst leftists obviously do want all states to be burned, the existence of some doesn't depend as acutely on the continuing racial/religious discrimination of a populace, like Israel does. And anyone who seeks to avoid arguing for the abolishment of Israel NOW, regardless of the abolishment or not of other states, is favoring a bourgeoisie legal principle over what would be an improvement in the working lives of many people.

[Widerstand]

Israel's promotion of nationalism, militarism, and anti-Arab attitudes has nothing to do with international pressure against it.

I agree. I never said contrary. But it creates a sense of "everyone opposes us anyway" amongst the Israeli populace, which raises acceptance for aggressive, unilateral and nationalist "fuck what they say let's just do what we want"-style politics.


hear hear, i thought these fucking anti-german tendencies died out by now, especially after the mindnumbing reactionary articles from Bahamas (anti-d bible) last year. Most anti-germans completely ignore the economic colonial paracitism on the palestianan working class, its control of all palestian inports and exports, its three layer apartheit law (isreali, arab-isreali and arab), state sponsered far-right militias, ect.

for UN

I don't care about the Bahamas, I have never heard of them outside of RevLeft (well, they were mentioned in the table of contents of an Anti-German critical book I looked at today), I don't relate to them, I have never read anything by them, I have never argued for them, I have never heard of anyone that did, I don't see why you are bringing this stupid strawman up in the first place.


My problem is that you seem to think that the singling out of Israel has more to do with the lefts hatred of the jooz/national chauvinisms

I'm not. I'm saying that it creates structures that lead to these phenomenons or support their already existing forms.

As can be seen in the history of the German left, which specifically targeted Jews in Germany and other non-Israeli nations with physical attacks, under the banner of "Anti-Zionist" activism. Another evidence for leftist "Anti-Zionism" creating structures of Anti-Semitism is the German Neo Nazis' adoption of leftist "Anti-Zionist" symbols as symbols against Jews. To the majority of the people, Israel is a symbol for Jews, and as such any symbolism against can and will be interpreted and used as symbolism against Jews.


rather than the fact that we're not some wish-washy liberals like yourself, but Marxists

Because all anarchists are liberal petit-bourgeois kids, not honest hardworking revolutionaries like MLs who sell newspapers all day, right?

I mean, that's what you just said, once you think about it.



, and to Marxists to argue that since no states are legitimate, then as long as other states exist, so should Israel relies on bourgeoisie right to begin with.

I'm not saying it 'should' exist, I'm saying there is no reason why it should be abolished before every other state. Let's use the USA: Can you name one single reason why Israel is more in need of abolition than the USA? I doubt it. Yet people always single out Israel and call for it's abolition, sometimes even while opposing the abolition of their own nation states (as is the case with large parts of the German non-radical left).


(maybe you're too obsessed with the UN to see that?)

What does my music preference have to do with my politics? Is listening to a screamo band with cynical texts reflecting critique of the United Nations affecting my politics in any way?



Whilst leftists obviously do want all states to be burned, the existence of some doesn't depend as acutely on the continuing racial/religious discrimination of a populace, like Israel does. And anyone who seeks to avoid arguing for the abolishment of Israel NOW, regardless of the abolishment or not of other states, is favoring a bourgeoisie legal principle over what would be an improvement in the working lives of many people.

Do you think the Israeli working class would be treated well under an Arab regime?

[Achara]

Another evidence for leftist "Anti-Zionism" creating structures of Anti-Semitism is the German Neo Nazis' adoption of leftist "Anti-Zionist" symbols as symbols against Jews.Seriously man, the fact that Neo Nazis oppose Israel says nothing about why leftists oppose Israel - they're completely diametrically opposed. And frankly their adoption of Anti-Zionist symbols is THEIR choice. Fuck, I'd like Nazis not to label themselves national socialists, but it sure as hell has fuck nothing to do with my politics.


all anarchists are liberal petit-bourgeois kidsWerd.


I'm saying there is no reason why it should be abolished before every other state.Well, to use my example before: let's take Micronesia. Do you really think that fighting whatever oppressive practices occur in Micronesia are on bar with Israel?

And that's not even what I was really getting at anyway; its not a matter of saying 'let's abolish Israel now, then let's abolish USA, then let's abolish x, y and z' - as if we have a choice in the matter. What I was getting at is that leftists give more attention to particular areas because they're more DESERVING of attention because of their scope in brutality or effect. Frankly, the islands of Micronesia aren't up their with Israel. Got it?


Let's use the USA: Can you name one single reason why Israel is more in need of abolition than the USA? I doubt it.I didn't put forward that argument, because frankly I think if the USA fell then so would... but anyway, that's not the point at all (see above).


Yet people always single out Israel and call for it's abolition, sometimes even while opposing the abolition of their own nation states (as is the case with large parts of the German non-radical left).Because, as stated above:

Whilst leftists obviously do want all states to be burned, the existence of some doesn't depend as acutely on the continuing racial/religious discrimination of a populace, like Israel does.

What really matters is combating the greatest injustices (I really don't know a better phrase than this) as they are occurring currently, not putting forward some liberal bullshit that all injustices/nation states are equal, and that therefore we shouldn't put emphasis on one or another.


Do you think the Israeli working class would be treated well under an Arab regime? I'm not sure if I've argued for an "Arab" regime, whatever that is.

[Widerstand]

Seriously man, the fact that Neo Nazis oppose Israel says nothing about why leftists oppose Israel

I suggest you read that part of my post before.



Well, to use my example before: let's take Micronesia. Do you really think that fighting whatever oppressive practices occur in Micronesia are on bar with Israel?

Obviously not, and? There are large parts of the left that don't have a clue about Israel, stylize it as a monolithic mass, and hate on Israel and Israeli's out of what I can best describe as leftist commonplace, with little to no knowledge of Anti-Regime resistance within Israel, to the extent of openly advocating suicide bombings and the like. It's not pointing out that Israel is bad, it's the emotional, polemic, and often ignorant manner in which Israel, it's populace, and very often other Jews as well are demonized by leftists.



And that's not even what I was really getting at anyway; its not a matter of saying 'let's abolish Israel now, then let's abolish USA, then let's abolish x, y and z' - as if we have a choice in the matter. What I was getting at is that leftists give more attention to particular areas because they're more DESERVING of attention because of their scope in brutality or effect. Frankly, the islands of Micronesia aren't up their with Israel. Got it?

Uhm, Germany, France, Great Britain, the USA, China and a couple of other states are at least on par with Israel in terms of imperialism and/or injustices.

I didn't put forward that argument, because frankly I think if the USA fell then so would... but anyway, that's not the point at all (see above).



I'm not sure if I've argued for an "Arab" regime, whatever that is.

What, do you think no one would claim the land if Israel was to be abolished?

[Achara]

I suggest you read that part of my post before.Okay:


I'm saying that it creates structures that lead to these phenomenons or support their already existing forms.You think that the focusing on Israel either leads to or strengthens anti-Semitism. Whilst its true that many groups/organizations do use Israel's actions as a justification for spouting anti-Jewish rhetoric, there also happens to be a legitimate reason for that focus: Israel's actions are appaling and need to be questioned and criticized.


Obviously not, and? And therefore we're right to focus on the State of Israel's actions over that of the State of Micronesia. Deal with it.


There are large parts of the left that don't have a clue about Israel, stylize it as a monolithic mass, and hate on Israel and Israeli's out of what I can best describe as leftist commonplace, with little to no knowledge of Anti-Regime resistance within Israel, to the extent of openly advocating suicide bombings and the like.Again, you seem unable to separate or distinguish between those groups who have a nuanced and sound criticism of Israel versus those who use it as an excuse to advance their nationalist ideas.


It's not pointing out that Israel is bad, it's the emotional, polemic, and often ignorant manner in which Israel, it's populace, and very often other Jews as well are demonized by leftists.Here you're spouting more bullshit. Show to me how 'very often' leftists on this website demonize Jews. I'm willing to bet 99% of people on here separate the actions of the Israeli state as separate from their views on individuals Israelis, Jews or otherwise.


Uhm, Germany, France, Great Britain, the USA, China and a couple of other states are at least on par with Israel in terms of imperialism and/or injustices.Sure, and they receive a hell of a lot of criticism too. What's your point?


What, do you think no one would claim the land if Israel was to be abolished? Well duh! HOLOCAUST, PART 2. :rolleyes:

[Widerstand]

You think that the focusing on Israel either leads to or strengthens anti-Semitism. Whilst its true that many groups/organizations do use Israel's actions as a justification for spouting anti-Jewish rhetoric, there also happens to be a legitimate reason for that focus: Israel's actions are appaling and need to be questioned and criticized.

There are individuals, and probably groups too, in large numbers, that focus on Israel in such a manner that not only it becomes their main subject of political activity, they also uncritically approve of every "Anti-Zionist" force, no matter how reactionary. This is a fact in Germany. It might not be in other countries.

Also, uncritically demonizing everything related to Israel, to the extent where voicing a neutral or even mildly positive opinion about Israel is heavily attacked and called out as "fascist", as has happened on this board, is indefensible by any measures.



And therefore we're right to focus on the State of Israel's actions over that of the State of Micronesia. Deal with it.

Your fucking strawman is astonishingly prolific.



Again, you seem unable to separate or distinguish between those groups who have a nuanced and sound criticism of Israel versus those who use it as an excuse to advance their nationalist ideas.

I'm all for 'nuanced and sound criticism' of Israel. I'm sorry I have to proclaim it a thing of the past at best.



Here you're spouting more bullshit. Show to me how 'very often' leftists on this website demonize Jews.

I don't care about this website. This website is not where I participate in politics, nor where politics affect me, my life, or the life of people I know, and I dare say anyone's.


I'm willing to bet 99% of people on here separate the actions of the Israeli state as separate from their views on individuals Israelis, Jews or otherwise.

Uhm, no. From the rhetoric used on here, it's quite easy to figure that a lot of people on here seem to think that every Israeli is a "Zionist" and "Arab-hater".


Sure, and they receive a hell of a lot of criticism too. What's your point?

My point is that, from a lot of leftists, at least in Germany, they don't. Which is why I consider the Anti-German's stance on Israel to be a necessary, albeit often over-the-top one to balance the political discussion in the broader German left.


Well duh! HOLOCAUST, PART 2. :rolleyes:

Is there an argument hidden somewhere in there?

[Achara]

You really didn't add anything interesting or anything that actually addressed what I've been arguing, just repetition of your same points whilst failing to address mine. All you've done is set up some strawman of some groups (Nazis, raving "anti-imperialists") who use Israel as an excuse to push their shitty politics. No one denies that you idiot. And when you say that "and very often other Jews as well are demonized by leftists" I'd expect you to give examples of leftists on this site that demonize Jews. And when you say "it's quite easy to figure that a lot of people on here seem to think that every Israeli is a "Zionist" and "Arab-hater"." I'd expect you to give examples. And if you don't think there are any sound criticisms of the actions of Israel then I suggest that's more of a reflection of your shitty anti-german political views. All you've done is characterize, like any Zionist does, your opponents arguments as anti-semetic, racist, irrational, or hateful. This is the expected approaches from Zionists like you. Regardless, you're a waste of time, so no, I won't bother answering your blithering. :)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I do who I please and please who I do.

[Ovi]

Romantic love is bourgeois.

[Widerstand]

All you've done is set up some strawman of some groups (Nazis, raving "anti-imperialists") who use Israel as an excuse to push their shitty politics. No one denies that you idiot.




And when you say that "and very often other Jews as well are demonized by leftists" I'd expect you to give examples of leftists on this site that demonize Jews.

But I wasn't talking about this site?



And when you say "it's quite easy to figure that a lot of people on here seem to think that every Israeli is a "Zionist" and "Arab-hater"." I'd expect you to give examples.

Well for one, pretty much every post in the couple of Israel-centered threads we have has targeted me as being a "Zionist" or even "fascist" for voicing an allegedly positive opinion of Israel (although I have explicitly said it has no right to exist). Is it really that hard to imagine what persons drawing these kind of conclusion think about Israelis?


And if you don't think there are any sound criticisms of the actions of Israel then I suggest that's more of a reflection of your shitty anti-german political views.

I don't see what my "shitty anti-german views", e.g. my opposition to German nationalism, have to do with anything. I'm not an Anti-German in the sense this term is used on this board, I have never claimed to be, I have in fact rejected this definition for myself countless times. It is people like you who keep labeling everything not strictly anti-Israeli as Zionist, Anti-German, Fascist, etc.

I do know that valid criticism of Israel exists, I'm acknowledging that it's an imperialist, apartheid regime, and I'm strictly condemning it's anti-Arab actions. I also strictly condemn the Anti-Arab, Israel- and Amercian-apologist attitude a lot of Anti-Germans do hold. I have said that various times throughout the various discussions on this site in the past few days. If I use hyperboles to criticize the stupid name-calling and baseless Nazi-Germany comparisons that dominate modern leftist discussions of Israel, that can of course be misleading, and I apologize for creating confusion, but it is an expression of my frustration over your bullshit accusations and absurd black and white positions.


I won't bother answering your blithering. :)

I think we can agree on that.

[Honggweilo]

What does my music preference have to do with my politics? Is listening to a screamo band with cynical texts reflecting critique of the United Nations affecting my politics in any way?

It doesnt say anything about your politics, but it certainly a sign of bad taste! they are horrible live.

[Widerstand]

It doesnt say anything about your politics, but it certainly a sign of bad taste! they are horrible live.

Have never seen them live, but I highly question your analysis. I've seen Ben Koller live and he's fucking awesome.