French Retirement Protests Turn Violent

[Rakhmetov]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101019/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_france_retirement_strikes

[Homage To Catalonia]

it is violent, to do nothing in a period of international imperialist violence.

Violence is just a amoral power, that can be used, to do good, or bad, and forget all that, violence degrades us and makes us become what we were fighting bullshit.


DEATH TO THE PLUTOCRACY

WE ARE AN IMAGE FROM THE FUTURE!

[~Spectre]

CNN, reliably, actually had footage of the protesters throwing a baby stroller. LOL

[Rakhmetov]

CNN, reliably, actually had footage of the protesters throwing a baby stroller. LOL


A sick parody of the Odessa Steps--- Battleship Potemkin???

[RadioRaheem84]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/oct/19/french-strikes-protests-live


8.41am:
The French actor Gerard Depardieu has criticised the strike. Speaking to the French daily Liberation, from Abu Dhabi where he's promoting his latest film, he said: "What's happening in France is ridiculous. It's a manipulation on the part of the unions."

What an idiot!

[~Spectre]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/oct/19/french-strikes-protests-live



What an idiot!

How soon they forget: http://www.breadwithcircus.com/guillotine.jpg

[Antifa94]

The protests are getting pretty fucking violent:)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2010/oct/19/french-strikes-protests-paris-video
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1321730/France-strikes-Paris-streets-ablaze-Britons-warned-stay-away-violence.html

[Antifa94]

correlation does not imply causation but
HOLY FUCKING SHIT
http://firegeezer.com/2010/10/19/arson-destroys-jr-high-school-in-france/
it was also mentioned in the guardian

[ed miliband]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/oct/19/french-strikes-protests-live



What an idiot!

It always amuses me how right-wing opponents of working class movements blame union fat cats for everything, ignoring the fact that in many cases the workers are completely defying the union bureaucracy, and if anyone has reason to be concerned about union leadership / bureaucracy it is the workers themselves.

[Pretty Flaco]

Is the change in retirement age the primary cause of the riots or are there many underlying causes and the change in retirement age is what broke the last straw?

[Quail]

I wish the English were more like the French. The French would have gone mental at the proposals for higher education.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Is the change in retirement age the primary cause of the riots or are there many underlying causes and the change in retirement age is what broke the last straw?I think people see what the ruling classes of Europe are trying to do in the PIIGs and they know that the ruling class wants to push a big program of austerity including creating unemployment on a massive scale (I've read that European governments - and the US - are floating talk of 25% unemployment).

In reading quotes from the protesters in the newspapers, there's a lot of talk of stopping the "Americanization" of the French workforce. IMO that is exactly what the European ruling classes are trying to do - make European labor like American labor (more hours, less pay, few reforms, less powerful unions). French workers know what working in the US is like and they are proud that they aren't like that and they have seen what Germany and the other European powers are trying to do in Greece and Spain and so it seems like the protesters are fairly clear that they are stopping not just a 2 year push-back in retirement age, but also the opening shots of a huge attack on the working class in France - and, by extension, all of Europe because if France goes down, then what hope does labor in the UK or Germany have?

[IndependentCitizen]

I wish the English were more like the French. The French would have gone mental at the proposals for higher education.

I'm still wondering what the fuck the TUC is doing, they keep talking of action but are doing nothing!

[Quail]

I'm still wondering what the fuck the TUC is doing, they keep talking of action but are doing nothing!
Didn't they call for a nationwide demo on the 23rd? There's one in Sheffield which barely any of us can get to thanks to the bookfair.

[RadioRaheem84]

Could this be the spark we were all waiting for?

Talk of 25% unemployment? That is bananas. Americans would have to go French on the ruling class then. If not, then we are truly successfully repressed.

[Rakhmetov]

Black Bloc is the leading vanguard of the protest, eh? :confused:

Like Danton Depardieu is a reactionary bourgeois.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S20eTvkahrQ

[RadioRaheem84]

Any truth to the 25% unemployment talks? I would like a link.

[Coggeh]

I wish the English were more like the French. The French would have gone mental at the proposals for higher education.
You probably didn't mean this way but to address an important point i shall none the less.

The idea that certain nationalities are more radical than others, in Ireland we keep on hearing about the greek workers , that their just more radical its their thing Irish people are not like that. But it is important for us to remember the conditions of each nation and keep a perspective on it all.

In France the unions are far stronger, more organised and have better leadership, British and Irish workers would follow the unions to more radical action, look at the Lindsey oil refinery workers, British airways etc etc . All of them were set on fighting tooth and nail in defense of their pay and conditions but the union leadership sold out just like they sold out in Ireland several times over and betrayed the workers movement.

We need first and foremost democratic trade unions where leaders are elected (most are not in Ireland) also union leaders cannot earn 1 cent more than those they represent per year. Many union heads are on 90,000k+ on such wages who are they going to represent ? workers on 35,000k fighting for basic conditions or would they settle on a whim with the bourgeois?

Leadership is extremely important when referring to the workers movement, key actions, decisions and ultimately the future of the working class may lie with the leadership of the working class, we must struggle for a socialist leadership, a workers leadership.

[The Grey Blur]

You probably didn't mean this way but to address an important point i shall none the less.

The idea that certain nationalities are more radical than others, in Ireland we keep on hearing about the greek workers , that their just more radical its their thing Irish people are not like that. But it is important for us to remember the conditions of each nation and keep a perspective on it all.

sure i would reject the lazy essentialist line which is being pushed by bourgeois news sources that these protests are "typically french" (or even worse, "france joining the real world") but the OP was just acknowledging what you describe - that the political culture in france is a million miles from that in britain.

by the way, are you studying psychology or some such now? i noticed the vygotsky quote, i studied him a lot last year for my courses. very chill bro.

[Saorsa]

France has a very low percentage of the working class in trade unions. The proletariat itself is more political and militant in France, not the French unions.

I read this comment on the Guardian website which summed the situation up well:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/19/protest-against-cuts-french


It will shock you and probably many others to know that France actually only has a trade union density of around 8% of the workforce (lower than even the US) whilst the UK actually retains a historically low, but notably higher 27% of the workforce.

They do have a statist method of bargaining coverage that does ensure that all businesses over a certain size have some sort of bargaining agreement with a union (the union is chosen by a vote from the whole workforce with reps from the different unions standing as candidates). The unions are admittedly very politicised as a result of this internal workplace competition rather than based along sectoral lines like the UK.

[IndependentCitizen]

Didn't they call for a nationwide demo on the 23rd? There's one in Sheffield which barely any of us can get to thanks to the bookfair.

A demo is not enough, a general strike would be ideal. However, the spending review is out at 12:30pm GMT, so let's hope the TUC comes up with a plan then.

[KurtFF8]

Zizek (everyone's favorite) actually had some interesting things to say about the developments in France: http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2010/10/18/part_iislavoj_zizek_far_right_and_anti_immigrant_p oliticians_on_the_rise_in_europe

He concluded that the Left is acting as the conservatives here: representing the higher paid workers who don't want their benefits cut, while the lower strata are being ignored altogether.

While I think that the developments in France have the potential of spreading to be much more generalized (I think we're already seeing this), Zizek does make an important point about where the Left stands, and that doesn't just go for France.

[RadioRaheem84]

Yeah but the left in Europe is advocating for the benefits and higher wages not to be cut vs. the conservatives in America who wish for public expenditures to be cut.

What is Zizek talking about? They're two different things.

The left in Europe is just populist right now, especially with the higher paid working class.

Things will move in a direction to include the lower sectors of European society too.

[KurtFF8]

Yeah but the left in Europe is advocating for the benefits and higher wages not to be cut vs. the conservatives in America who wish for public expenditures to be cut.

What is Zizek talking about? They're two different things.

The left in Europe is just populist right now, especially with the higher paid working class.

Things will move in a direction to include the lower sectors of European society too.

I hope your last sentence is right here.

He doesn't mean conservative as in "like the American conservatives" but in the more general sense of the word. They aren't fighting for a new vision of how the social order should be, but instead are fighting to maintain their position within the current order.

[KurtFF8]

By the way, I don't think he's 100% right, but it is an important thing to take into account.

And I do support these struggles, in case it looks otherwise.

[RadioRaheem84]

What would happen to France if these reforms were pushed through? Would we see an even bigger strike or will the French workers swallow the bitter pill?

[Arlekino]

Is little confusing me about Unions are they fighting to keep for himselfs jobs which some do have fat salaries, with excuse me I am not blame all Union members and most of are pro-capitalist and kind of against protesting equal right for all nationalities for example is not big records fighting against BNP.
If I am wrong would some correct me.
Thank you comrades

[KurtFF8]

What would happen to France if these reforms were pushed through? Would we see an even bigger strike or will the French workers swallow the bitter pill?

Hard to tell. And if they were, it certainly wouldn't be good for the French working class, it could take a more reactionary turn or a more radical turn: there are just too many unknown factors right now to tell.

This is why I think the whole notion of "hopefully things get worse so people wake up!" is pretty often bullshit. (Which isn't to say that organizing in times of capitalist crisis isn't the prime time for Leftist organizing of course).

[Jazzhands]

fapfapfapfapfap:lol:

anyway, the "things will get worse so people wake up" thing is pretty much wrong. America went through the Great Depression, but never went through a revolution. Our wages have been stagnant for 30 years at least (a direct cause of the recent crisis) but we've yet to revolt. Cambodia has been at the lowest point in their history ever since the Lon Nol regime and the American bombing, but apart from the recent textile strikes, there have been no really revolutionary actions taken by the oppressed classes. Correlation=/=causation.

[RadioRaheem84]

I disagree. i could at least see a populist social democratic revolt in the EU. Not that it will do any good in the long run but the point would be to bring legitimacy back to worker grievances.

[IndependentCitizen]

Spending review was 9 hours ago, and there's no word from the TUC. Nothing's going to happen in the UK, I hope our comrades in continental Europe make sure you all take action.

[Who?]

I disagree. i could at least see a populist social democratic revolt in the EU. Not that it will do any good in the long run but the point would be to bring legitimacy back to worker grievances.

Populist social democracy is less reactionary than populist libertarianism, the disease we're unfortunately struggling with in Amerika at the moment. Every struggle against the ruling class by workers and students should be supported and who knows, this could end up being the spark we've been looking for. We see workers who won't not give up their rights and a generation of youth who refuse to become yet another "lost" generation.

[ed miliband]

Spending review was 9 hours ago, and there's no word from the TUC. Nothing's going to happen in the UK, I hope our comrades in continental Europe make sure you all take action.

There was a march in London that was about two-thirds student and one-third trade union organisations. I'd say there were about 5,000 people there, I think the police are saying there were 4,000, and the 'official' line from the organisers seems to be 7,000. There was a small black block, a lot of SWP and SP (CWI) banners, and most of the chanting was about cuts to education only.

So yep, business as usual.

[ckaihatsu]

We need first and foremost democratic trade unions where leaders are elected (most are not in Ireland) also union leaders cannot earn 1 cent more than those they represent per year. Many union heads are on 90,000k+ on such wages who are they going to represent ? workers on 35,000k fighting for basic conditions or would they settle on a whim with the bourgeois?

Leadership is extremely important when referring to the workers movement, key actions, decisions and ultimately the future of the working class may lie with the leadership of the working class, we must struggle for a socialist leadership, a workers leadership.


Fuck all this -- in a former time of horse-drawn carriage rides to connect cities and workers' organizations, *okay*. But in our present-day period of phone-call number keypads, machine scanning of answer reply sheets, automated email response tallying, web forms, message boards, cell phone texting, etc., there's *zero* excuse to rely on *any* kind of bureaucratic "representatives" to serve as go-betweens between active policy and the will of the rank-and-file workers.

[cyu]

From http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/duyh7/france_on_strike_the_big_picture/

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/greve_10_22/g18_25500453.jpg

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/greve_10_22/g02_25522571.jpg

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/greve_10_22/g16_25572439.jpg

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/greve_10_22/g28_25523071.jpg

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/greve_10_22/g14_25562215.jpg

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/greve_10_22/g30_25522657.jpg
"When I was your age, I was already working." "When I am your age I'll still be working."

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/greve_10_22/g35_25548517.jpg

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/greve_10_22/g23_25561465.jpg

[KurtFF8]

Well the French senate passed the law today, seems the strikes didn't achieve their goal.

[Wanted Man]

Zizek (everyone's favorite) actually had some interesting things to say about the developments in France: http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2010/10/18/part_iislavoj_zizek_far_right_and_anti_immigrant_p oliticians_on_the_rise_in_europe

He concluded that the Left is acting as the conservatives here: representing the higher paid workers who don't want their benefits cut, while the lower strata are being ignored altogether.

While I think that the developments in France have the potential of spreading to be much more generalized (I think we're already seeing this), Zizek does make an important point about where the Left stands, and that doesn't just go for France.

Wow, and people on the left worship this guy? What a tool. :lol:

[Amphictyonis]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/oct/19/french-strikes-protests-live



What an idiot!

Tell that idiot to shut up and listen to a REAL Frenchman!


USsUQUTpYyA

[~Spectre]

Well the French senate passed the law today, seems the strikes didn't achieve their goal.

Is there anyway for them to escalate the strikes to a more general level? Just shut down France completely etc.

[Tifosi]

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00478/cartoon211010_478341a.jpg

[Wanted Man]

Pictures from France here (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/10/france_on_strike.html). Great picture below:

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/greve_10_22/g19_25590101.jpg

:wub:

[Jazzhands]

Whoever took that should win a Pulitzer.

[KurtFF8]

Indeed. It seems like this struggle has failed though: refineries back open to some extent and the law has been passed.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Indeed. It seems like this struggle has failed though: refineries back open to some extent and the law has been passed.

Not true, even with the law passed, the strikes have actually increased from what I've been told. Not much coverage is coming in about it though.

[the last donut of the night]

Whoever took that should win a Pulitzer.

The ultimate trolling would be if two black men were lying down and kissing. Would really show the right-wing media. :)

[La Comédie Noire]

The two cops on the right are wicked into the kissing.

I've talked to a few French people and they treat this as a none event. One went so far as to say "Shit happens, as soon as vacation comes around everyone will stop."

I'd hope not.

[RadioRaheem84]

Not true, even with the law passed, the strikes have actually increased from what I've been told. Not much coverage is coming in about it though.

What sources have you been reading?

Stuff I've read indicates that even the French lost their resolve.

[bcbm]

new york times (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/world/europe/26unions.html?partner=rss&emc=rss) isn't very optimistic

[Jaish1]

the french govt is no good. Support for israel, fueling the wars in iraq and afghanistan, banning religious freedom and deporting minorities. and now raping the workers' right from their own ppl.

[ckaihatsu]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(((( T h e B u l l e t ))))~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Socialist Project e-bulletin .... No. 423 .... October 25, 2010
_______________________________________________

The Revolt Shaking France

Strikes and protests have spread to every corner of France as President Nicolas Sarkozy pushes for a final vote in parliament on his proposal to ‘reform’ the country's national pension system. Every day last week has seen strikes, blockades and demonstrations. Police attempted to break up blockades at oil refineries and supply facilities after weeks of oil workers and their supporters stopping fuel deliveries, but the actions frequently resumed after police left. Almost all of the country's ports are still struck – according to reports, 52 oil tankers are at anchor off the coast of Marseilles, still waiting to unload.

The biggest actions have come when the unions have called nationwide strikes, but rolling walkouts and protests continue every day. This week, police have lashed back at youth demonstrators, fighting running battles in cities around the country – with the media parroting Sarkozy's denunciations of “lawbreakers.”

Sarkozy's proposal would raise the minimum age for retirement from 60 to 62 and the age when retirees can get full benefits from 65 to 67. The measure was passed by the country's Assembly and is being considered in the Senate – a vote was scheduled for October 20, but was delayed, though the Sarkozy government insists one will take place soon. Even if the measure passes, however, more protests are already planned, including at least two nationwide strikes and days of action at the end of October and early November.

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[The Vegan Marxist]

What sources have you been reading?

Stuff I've read indicates that even the French lost their resolve.

Only 3 of the 12 striking refineries have backed down. The majority striking workers have concluded that they'll remain fighting & remain striking, because they understand the current system on their workforce is still not enough to be able to bring about safe working conditions to each worker:

LSyBMMB42Zk

[mossy noonmann]

don't worry too much about these three refineries. they can't refine anything they get there crude through a pipeline that is on strike

[KurtFF8]

It's good to see the dock workers still on strike, but I hate to continue to be the pessimist in this thread:

French strikes lose steam, garbage workers return (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_france_retirement_strikes;_ylt=AlMFLgu2Xl8QdVv9 Ffgvxpys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTMxNzEzZWM2BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIw MTAxMDI2L2V1X2ZyYW5jZV9yZXRpcmVtZW50X3N0cmlrZXMEY3 BvcwM3BHBvcwM0BHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawNm cmVuY2hzdHJpa2U-)



By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Angela Doland, Associated Press – 29 mins ago
PARIS – French garbage collectors waded through mounds of reeking trash as they headed back to work Tuesday and some oil workers deserted their picket lines — signs of fading momentum in the battle against raising the retirement age.
France's finance minister declared that the massive protest movement had finally reached a "turning point," and the Senate gave its final 177-151 vote approval to President Nicolas Sarkozy's plan to increase the retirement age from 60 to 62.
The bill now goes before the lower house Wednesday, where it is almost certain to pass. It then will face challenges by the opposition Socialists before the country's Constitutional Court. Sarkozy is not expected to sign it until mid-November at the earliest.
For two weeks, nationwide protests and strikes over the pension reform have disrupted French life and the country's economy, canceling trains, closing schools and shutting gas stations. On Tuesday, students with megaphones chanted outside the 17th-century Senate building on the edge of Paris' Luxembourg Gardens as riot police stood by.
Unions have called for another nationwide day of protests Thursday, even if all Parliament action on the bill is over.
Some of the youth demonstrations have had a violent edge, and the Interior Minister said 2,554 protesters were detained in the past two weeks.
French unions see retirement at 60 as a cherished social benefit. But President Nicolas Sarkozy's conservative government says raising the retirement age is the only way to save the money-losing pension system because French people are living longer. It also notes 62 is still among the lowest retirement ages in Europe.
French Finance Minister Christine Lagarde, who has estimated losses from the strikes at up to euro400 million ($557 million) a day, said the momentum has shifted.
"What's very important is taking responsibility — it's realizing that the economy needs to function," she told Radio Classique.
In Marseille, workers tackled some 9,000 tons of garbage that has piled up in the streets over the last two weeks of strikes. Authorities said it would take up to five days before France's second-largest city starts smelling like itself again.
"The uncollected rubbish is bringing rats," complained Melika Benslimane, a secretary. "We can no longer walk on the pavement because it's full of trash."
Marseille has another big problem: Its port has been blocked by striking dock workers, and oil tankers were lined up in the Mediterranean as far as the eye can see, awaiting entry to France.

Workers at five of the country's 12 oil refineries were back on the job Tuesday, Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux said.
But that did not mean an end to fuel shortages. Strikes continued at all six of oil giant Total SA's French refineries, and the plants going back to work will need a few days to fully resume operations. Crude oil coming in for processing was stuck on dozens of anchored ships, waiting to be unloaded.
France's trains were operating at near-normal levels Tuesday, but many drivers were still hunting for fuel. At a gas station near the Eiffel Tower, nozzles were marked "out of order."
"As long as we are still being kept out of gas stations, nothing is resolved," taxi driver Aissa Smani said.
___
APTN producer Don McCaughan in Marseille and AP business writer Greg Keller contributed to this report.

So it's moved from 3 to 5 since the Vegan Marxist posted the above. I wish this weren't the case, and I'm glad to see some continued resistance, but I don't really see it going anywhere at this point.

[RadioRaheem84]

I want to have hope for France too, but even then unless full revolution is on the map, constant protesting would actually hinder their lives even further and alienate the rest of the working class not protesting but still supportive.

The ruling classes really have a tight grip on the working class, even in France. Imagine the hold they have on workers here in the States. It would be nearly impossible to conduct a strike of that magnitude here in the States.

I am fundamentally losing my resolve too and seeing that unless there is a total upheaval of the system, then anything else is mostly pointless at this point.

[KurtFF8]

I want to have hope for France too, but even then unless full revolution is on the map, constant protesting would actually hinder their lives even further and alienate the rest of the working class not protesting but still supportive.


I disagree with this fully. "Full Revolution" is never really "on the map" until it becomes the conclusion of a long struggle (and even the success of a revolution isn't the completion of a struggle, as history shows us). We can't only rely on a specific political event ("the" Revolution) to solve our problems or be the primary course of action. Revolutionaries understand that revolution is a political aim that needs to be on the table and should happen, but to get there, building up a broader struggle is necessary.

Just like the working class, the capitalist class has various strategies, and both classes' strategies are playing out right now. At this moment, it seems the capitalist class has the upper hand and may win this particular struggle, which will likely demoralize the working class of France, which is a shame.

[RadioRaheem84]

Good analysis. :thumbup1: