Is being a left wrong or stupid ?

[Commie77]

Well yes i am in the OI because i am a social-democrat. I am still trying to decide if i want to lean to the left, most likely permanent socialism. However i have discussed with a few people and my dad does not like communist countries, mainly Cuba. To the point is being a i guess capitalists would call extreme lefty/permanent socialism stupid ? Should i stick with being a social democrat ? your thoughts ?ThanksCommie77

[ComradeMan]

Well yes i am in the OI because i am a social-democrat. I am still trying to decide if i want to lean to the left, most likely permanent socialism. However i have discussed with a few people and my dad does not like communist countries, mainly Cuba. To the point is being a i guess capitalists would call extreme lefty/permanent socialism stupid ? Should i stick with being a social democrat ? your thoughts ?ThanksCommie77

Do you always do what your Dad says? It is admirable that you have respect for your father and I hope you come from a happy family- if so then why not ask your father why he doesn't like communist countries and talk about it? Remember that a lot of people who have grown up in the west, especially your father's generation have been bombarded with so much propaganda that their opinions are often distorted.

Being a socialist, communist or whatever else does not mean you have to be an uncritical supporter of Cuba or anyone else.

In the end only you know the answer to your question- but why not take a political compass test online and see where your sympathies lie and work from there through introspection to see where you stand?

[Commie77]

Do you always do what your Dad says? It is admirable that you have respect for your father and I hope you come from a happy family- if so then why not ask your father why he doesn't like communist countries and talk about it? Remember that a lot of people who have grown up in the west, especially your father's generation have been bombarded with so much propaganda that their opinions are often distorted.

Being a socialist, communist or whatever else does not mean you have to be an uncritical supporter of Cuba or anyone else.

In the end only you know the answer to your question- but why not take a political compass test online and see where your sympathies lie and work from there through introspection to see where you stand?

i will take the political compass thanks :). Also i will ask my dad about it. However i was wondering was permanent socialism agaisnt communism as communism basically wants the abolition of the state ?

[ComradeMan]

i will take the political compass thanks :). Also i will ask my dad about it. However i was wondering was permanent socialism agaisnt communism as communism basically wants the abolition of the state ?

It depends what kind of socialism and what kind of communism and there are hundreds of different ideologies, viewpoints and strategies- all a bit daunting at first. But before you go down to your local library, you think about what you believe in too. Das Kapital might be a bit heavy going but why not try the Communist Manifesto and a few early anarchist works such as Malatesta "Anarchy" and so on... that way you can begin to get a feel for what you believe is right or wrong.

[Commie77]

It depends what kind of socialism and what kind of communism and there are hundreds of different ideologies, viewpoints and strategies- all a bit daunting at first. But before you go down to your local library, you think about what you believe in too. Das Kapital might be a bit heavy going but why not try the Communist Manifesto and a few early anarchist works such as Malatesta "Anarchy" and so on... that way you can begin to get a feel for what you believe is right or wrong.

Thanks :) but i think anarchy in itself is impossible and a bit idk stupid, no offence to anyone

[ComradeMan]

Thanks :) but i think anarchy in itself is impossible and a bit idk stupid, no offence to anyone


LOL!!!! You will offend quite a lot of people here! :D

Why though? Why do you think it's a bit stupid?

First take the test, come back and discuss the results-

http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=16378307404171364367

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

http://politicalquiz.net/

There are some others out there too. The problem with some of them though is that they tend to be written from a US based perspective so non-US answerers might find it hard to give an answer to certain questions.

[Commie77]

politicalquiz.net results Conservative/Progressive score: 3 You are a social conservative. You believe in traditional values, and care first and foremost about your country, your family, and your religion. You dislike the agenda of the left because you see them as trying to destroy these things.Capitalist Purist/Social Capitalist score: 12 You're a Social Capitalist, you think that, left to its own, Capitalism leaves a lot of people behind. You think that Health Care should be free to all, that the minimum wage should be raised, and that the government should provide jobs to all that are capable of having them. You likely hated the Bush tax cuts, and believe that the middle class has gotten poorer, and the rich have gotten richer over the past several years. The far extreme of social capitalism is socialism.Libertarian/Authoritarian score: 9 You're an Authoritarian. You believe that that, left to their own, many people will do immoral or harmful things. You despise drug users, pornography, violence, and all other things that you consider immoral. You also think that security is often more important than protecting rights. You think children need to be protected from seeing these things so it doesn't warp their minds, and that the will of the majority sometimes is more important than the rights of the minority.Pacifist/Militarist score: 8 You're a Moderate. You think that in very rare occasions, the United States should invade a country in order to make the world better by spreading democracy or ending a tyrants rule. You also think that defense is very important, and we shouldn't lower the defense budget. You think that, while the Iraq War probably was a mistake, that we can make the world a better place by sticking with it and spreading democracy in the middle east.but i dont think this reflects me accurately, :P politicalcompass.org results Economic Left/Right: -1.88Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.69i do not thing this define me politically either ? maybe i messed up the test.About the anarchism thing i think if there is anarchy you are left on your own, no society to protect you and you would have to defend yourself. there has to be some sort of hierarchy/government and the such to protect us with cops, ensure health care and education and all that.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Well yes i am in the OI because i am a social-democrat. I am still trying to decide if i want to lean to the left, most likely permanent socialism. However i have discussed with a few people and my dad does not like communist countries, mainly Cuba. To the point is being a i guess capitalists would call extreme lefty/permanent socialism stupid ? Should i stick with being a social democrat ? your thoughts ?ThanksCommie77
Being 'left' is stupid if you want to preserve the social order and the present economic relations in society. It is not stupid if you identify the problems of capitalism, its backwardness and you want to change these things for the benefit of humanity as whole.

This is why capitalists call the left stupid, because our ideas and practises aim to abolish their whole system. In order to destroy their claims that anti-capitalism is stupid, you have to be able to counteract their claims.

Identify your own position with regards to anti-capitalism. If you conclude that it is 'stupid', then so be it. You should make your mind up with regards to it; if somebody calls you 'stupid' for your views, that is just a narrow and unfounded opinion. Judging by your post, its not as if they have managed to explain why the left is stupid in any coherent and concise way, otherwise you would not be asking revleft for their own thoughts. We are obviously not that stupid after all.

[ComradeMan]

politicalquiz.net results Conservative/Progressive score: 3 You are a social conservative. You believe in traditional values, and care first and foremost about your country, your family, and your religion. You dislike the agenda of the left because you see them as trying to destroy these things.Capitalist Purist/Social Capitalist score: 12 You're a Social Capitalist, you think that, left to its own, Capitalism leaves a lot of people behind. You think that Health Care should be free to all, that the minimum wage should be raised, and that the government should provide jobs to all that are capable of having them. You likely hated the Bush tax cuts, and believe that the middle class has gotten poorer, and the rich have gotten richer over the past several years. The far extreme of social capitalism is socialism.Libertarian/Authoritarian score: 9 You're an Authoritarian. You believe that that, left to their own, many people will do immoral or harmful things. You despise drug users, pornography, violence, and all other things that you consider immoral. You also think that security is often more important than protecting rights. You think children need to be protected from seeing these things so it doesn't warp their minds, and that the will of the majority sometimes is more important than the rights of the minority.Pacifist/Militarist score: 8 You're a Moderate. You think that in very rare occasions, the United States should invade a country in order to make the world better by spreading democracy or ending a tyrants rule. You also think that defense is very important, and we shouldn't lower the defense budget. You think that, while the Iraq War probably was a mistake, that we can make the world a better place by sticking with it and spreading democracy in the middle east.but i dont think this reflects me accurately, :P politicalcompass.org results Economic Left/Right: -1.88Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.69i do not thing this define me politically either ? maybe i messed up the test.About the anarchism thing i think if there is anarchy you are left on your own, no society to protect you and you would have to defend yourself. there has to be some sort of hierarchy/government and the such to protect us with cops, ensure health care and education and all that.


Oh dear--- suggests you might end up in the GULAG (OI) quite quickly, but I suppose we can work on the Social Libertarian thing to an extent.:laugh:

Remember, these "compasses" are hardly high science at the best of times so don't brand yourself according to the compass.

Let's analyse what we've got though and what the problems may be.


Conservative/Progressive score: 3 You are a social conservative. You believe in traditional values, and care first and foremost about your country, your family, and your religion. You dislike the agenda of the left because you see them as trying to destroy these things.

This will be branded as reactionary outright- you can't really be revolutionary and a social conservative.


Capitalist Purist/Social Capitalist score: 12 You're a Social Capitalist, you think that, left to its own, Capitalism leaves a lot of people behind. You think that Health Care should be free to all, that the minimum wage should be raised, and that the government should provide jobs to all that are capable of having them. You likely hated the Bush tax cuts, and believe that the middle class has gotten poorer, and the rich have gotten richer over the past several years. The far extreme of social capitalism is socialism.

This pushes you towards more of a Social Democrat- at least you recognise the flaws in the capitalist system and you have some social conscience. You're hovering round in China at the moment :D


Libertarian/Authoritarian score: 9 You're an Authoritarian. You believe that that, left to their own, many people will do immoral or harmful things. You despise drug users, pornography, violence, and all other things that you consider immoral. You also think that security is often more important than protecting rights. You think children need to be protected from seeing these things so it doesn't warp their minds, and that the will of the majority sometimes is more important than the rights of the minority.

This places you in the Soviet Union under Stalin, but it won't win you many friends in anarchist circles.

Pacifist/Militarist score: 8 You're a Moderate. You think that in very rare occasions, the United States should invade a country in order to make the world better by spreading democracy or ending a tyrants rule. You also think that defense is very important, and we shouldn't lower the defense budget. You think that, while the Iraq War probably was a mistake, that we can make the world a better place by sticking with it and spreading democracy in the middle east.

This is imperialism dude!!! But you do say it doesn't reflect what you really think, so what do you think?

-1.88Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.69

You're a Stalinist!
Вы сталинской!


http://www.thehouseofmarketing.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/stalin.jpg

"About the anarchism thing i think if there is anarchy you are left on your own, no society to protect you and you would have to defend yourself. there has to be some sort of hierarchy/government and the such to protect us with cops, ensure health care and education and all that-"

Don't worry- the supreme Soviet and Uncle Joe would probably agree with you in many ways!

Now on a more serious note you need to think about things and decide. Of course, you may well end up in OI but you can still engage in discussion!

[Tifosi]

politicalquiz.net results Conservative/Progressive score: 3 You are a social conservative. You believe in traditional values, and care first and foremost about your country, your family, and your religion. You dislike the agenda of the left because you see them as trying to destroy these things.Capitalist Purist/Social Capitalist score: 12 You're a Social Capitalist, you think that, left to its own, Capitalism leaves a lot of people behind. You think that Health Care should be free to all, that the minimum wage should be raised, and that the government should provide jobs to all that are capable of having them. You likely hated the Bush tax cuts, and believe that the middle class has gotten poorer, and the rich have gotten richer over the past several years. The far extreme of social capitalism is socialism.Libertarian/Authoritarian score: 9 You're an Authoritarian. You believe that that, left to their own, many people will do immoral or harmful things. You despise drug users, pornography, violence, and all other things that you consider immoral. You also think that security is often more important than protecting rights. You think children need
to be protected from seeing these things so it doesn't warp their minds, and that the will of the majority sometimes is more important than the rights of the minority.Pacifist/Militarist score: 8 You're a Moderate. You think that in very rare occasions, the
United States should invade a country in order to make the world better by spreading democracy or ending a tyrants rule. You also think that defense is very important, and we shouldn't lower the defense
budget. You think that, while the Iraq War probably was a mistake, that we can make the world a better place by sticking with it and spreading democracy
in the middle east.but i dont think this reflects me accurately, :P politicalcompass.org results Economic Left/Right: -1.88Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.69i do not thing this define me politically either ? maybe i messed up the test.

lol

A five minute quiz on the Internet isn't going to give you that great of an
answer. The Internet can give you porn in five minutes but it ain't going to give you a political tendency to associate with, take your time with it:).


About the anarchism thing i think if there is anarchy you are left on
your own, no society to protect you and you would have to defend yourself. there has to be some sort of hierarchy/government and the such to protect with cops, ensure health care and education and all that.


You seem to have eating up all the propaganda aimed against Anarchism. It is not about going back to the rules of the Jungle, although that would be awesome:cool:

In Free Derry back in the lates 60's it was the locals that ran the poilce force. They ran it and they where the members of it. They where not in-forcing somebody else's rules, it was their rules. Free Derry wasn't that Anarchist, it's more liked by Irish Republicans but it gives us a few good
examples of how we, normal people, can do things for ourselfs when put under great pressure from the state. That just one example.

This example also shows that tendency's don't make revolutions. The class make revolutions and almost every member of the working class isn't a leftie. The left is about helping the class move in the right way, towards class war. So tendency isn't the be all and end all of politics.

Anyway, You really need to get a better understanding of things before you just wright
them of as stupid. If you what some things to read have a look here (http://libcom.org/), here (http://www.marxists.org/) and here (http://theanarchistlibrary.org/) That will give a life times worth of reading.

[Commie77]

i am conservative in the sense that culture is important and religion can unify countries and peoples. I like to care about other countries like sending foreign aid but you have to look out for yourself as well. i don't dislike the agenda of the left just some things :Pi don't really believe in authoriatarian government :P its just like some times you got to do what you got to do. plus most socialist governments are authoritarian :Pthe pacifist one is messed up, i said we should lower the military budget.... maybe i clicked the wrong button. Also this was about america :P i think the iraq war was stupid and every know and then some retarded dictator who says he is going to nuke the hell out of someone needs to be delt with. Besides that i like peacefull solutions :P

[Commie77]

tifosi can you write the site names please ? when i click on the link it does not work :P

[Tifosi]

tifosi can you write the site names please ? when i click on the link it does not work :P

The links work for me:huh:

The sites where Libcom, Marxist Internet Archive and the Anarchist Libary, google them:)

[revolution inaction]

i don't really believe in authoriatarian government :P its just like some times you got to do what you got to do. plus most socialist governments are authoritarian

what socialist governments? thats kind of a contradiction

[Commie77]

The links work for me:huh:

The sites where Libcom, Marxist Internet Archive and the Anarchist Libary, google them:)

Thanks :) sometime links don't work cause of my internet :P

[Commie77]

what socialist governments? thats kind of a contradiction

Cuba? USSR ok we can have a major debate that they were not exactly socialist but there are only models today so using science which communists seem to promote over religion then basically until proven otherwise that is what socialism is :P

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

i am conservative in the sense that culture is important and religion can unify countries and peoples. I like to care about other countries like sending foreign aid but you have to look out for yourself as well. i don't dislike the agenda of the left just some things :Pi don't really believe in authoriatarian government :P its just like some times you got to do what you got to do. plus most socialist governments are authoritarian :Pthe pacifist one is messed up, i said we should lower the military budget.... maybe i clicked the wrong button. Also this was about america :P i think the iraq war was stupid and every know and then some retarded dictator who says he is going to nuke the hell out of someone needs to be delt with. Besides that i like peacefull solutions :P
Religion has done more to prevent unification between people than it has done the opposite. Many of the conflicts and struggles in this world are of a religious nature, and the religious character to these specific struggles and conflicts actually curb the resolution of these conflicts. Religion divides people and in turn keeps the oppressed masses weak. In this sense, organized religion is generally a bad thing in the eyes of the left as it serves to preserve the current social order and means of production, which are things the left want to do away with.

Its always nice to think that you are helping other countries with foreign aid, but the fact is that, in being realistic, you should aim to destroy the forces which mean that certain countries 'need' aid. Its not like the African continent is naturally unlucky, there are reasons why it is in a poor state of affairs. If you can identify why these places need aid, which is in the broadest sense down to capitalism, then you can identify that aid is not the solution, but rather allows capitalism to go about exploiting the world with a smiley face. The solution is to destroy the class system that allows one class to exploit the world and its people for their resources. Foreign aid is like putting a plaster on a gushing axe wound, it is a feeble attempt at treating the axe blow, and the wound itself obviously requires more attention. In believing that you can save a land with aid, you are allowing capitalism to continue raping and pillaging those lands for their resources and their peoples' labour power.

As for authoritarianism, it is worth noting that a broadly accepted consensus on the left is that authoritarianism is a bad thing. Many leftists speak aggressively against authoritarianism and authoritarian forms of economic and political systems. Much of the left would also argue that no actual socialist governments exist; just because a country waves a red flag, does not mean it operates within the interests of oppressed people. Other leftists would even argue that, in order for a people to be liberated, any form of government would act as a barrier to that. Some leftists are authoritarian in their politics, but for the most part, they are not, and believe that people should be the masters of their own destiny, outside of the constraints that the class system carries.

In short, if you want to develop an understanding of leftist politics, whether it is because your heart tells you to agree or whether you want to understand them from the point of arguing against them, then you need to study leftist theories and arguments from their own sources. It can not be summed up by looking at certain nations that call themselves 'socialist' or 'communist' and drawing the conclusion that leftist = bad (as these 'socialist' countries are not representative of revolutionary leftism at all for the most part), or by accepting the right wing rhetoric that suggests that all people on the left have authoritarian tendencies. Leftist political theory is an incredibly broad spectrum, and the best thing that you can do is read up on it from an objective view-point, rather than trying to understand them based on what your teachers or news programmes have told you.

[ComradeMan]

what socialist governments? thats kind of a contradiction

Never heard of the dictatorship of the proletariat have you? Never heard of revolutionary governments? Been to Venezuela lately?

But then I suppose you'll just turn around and say because it's not 100% your form of anarchism then it isn't socialism.

[Commie77]

Religion has done more to prevent unification between people than it has done the opposite. Many of the conflicts and struggles in this world are of a religious nature, and the religious character to these specific struggles and conflicts actually curb the resolution of these conflicts. Religion divides people and in turn keeps the oppressed masses weak. In this sense, organized religion is generally a bad thing in the eyes of the left as it serves to preserve the current social order and means of production, which are things the left want to do away with.

Its always nice to think that you are helping other countries with foreign aid, but the fact is that, in being realistic, you should aim to destroy the forces which mean that certain countries 'need' aid. Its not like the African continent is naturally unlucky, there are reasons why it is in a poor state of affairs. If you can identify why these places need aid, which is in the broadest sense down to capitalism, then you can identify that aid is not the solution, but rather allows capitalism to go about exploiting the world with a smiley face. The solution is to destroy the class system that allows one class to exploit the world and its people for their resources. Foreign aid is like putting a plaster on a gushing axe wound, it is a feeble attempt at treating the axe blow, and the wound itself obviously requires more attention. In believing that you can save a land with aid, you are allowing capitalism to continue raping and pillaging those lands for their resources and their peoples' labour power.

As for authoritarianism, it is worth noting that a broadly accepted consensus on the left is that authoritarianism is a bad thing. Many leftists speak aggressively against authoritarianism and authoritarian forms of economic and political systems. Much of the left would also argue that no actual socialist governments exist; just because a country waves a red flag, does not mean it operates within the interests of oppressed people. Other leftists would even argue that, in order for a people to be liberated, any form of government would act as a barrier to that. Some leftists are authoritarian in their politics, but for the most part, they are not, and believe that people should be the masters of their own destiny, outside of the constraints that the class system carries.

In short, if you want to develop an understanding of leftist politics, whether it is because your heart tells you to agree or whether you want to understand them from the point of arguing against them, then you need to study leftist theories and arguments from their own sources. It can not be summed up by looking at certain nations that call themselves 'socialist' or 'communist' and drawing the conclusion that leftist = bad (as these 'socialist' countries are not representative of revolutionary leftism at all for the most part), or by accepting the right wing rhetoric that suggests that all people on the left have authoritarian tendencies. Leftist political theory is an incredibly broad spectrum, and the best thing that you can do is read up on it from an objective view-point, rather than trying to understand them based on what your teachers or news programmes have told you.

Thanks for the post :) One question thought is Cuba considered socialist ? cause if so it is authoritarian PS not trying to argue just asking a question

[revolution inaction]

Cuba? USSR

both capitalist



ok we can have a major debate that they were not exactly socialist but there are only models today so using science which communists seem to promote over religion then basically until proven otherwise that is what socialism is :P
i'm not sure what you are saying here



Never heard of the dictatorship of the proletariat have you? Never heard of revolutionary governments? Been to Venezuela lately?


revolutionary government is a contradiction, and venezuela :laugh:

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Thanks for the post :) One question thought is Cuba considered socialist ? cause if so it is authoritarian PS not trying to argue just asking a question
I don't consider it a socialist nation, personally. Different tendencies in revolutionary thinking do think that Cuba is socialist, but I would disagree with them.

[ComradeMan]

I don't consider it a socialist nation, personally. Different tendencies in revolutionary thinking do think that Cuba is socialist, but I would disagree with them.

Of course Cuba is socialist- it's not perfection, it's by no means a model state but to argue that Cuba is not socialist is going a bit far.

[Nuvem]

what socialist governments? thats kind of a contradiction

Cuba? USSR...both capitalist

revolutionary government is a contradiction

Ideology, meet suicide. Suicide, this is ideology.

[revolution inaction]

Of course Cuba is socialist- it's not perfection, it's by no means a model state but to argue that Cuba is not socialist is going a bit far.
its not socalist in any way,the workers are not in control



Ideology, meet suicide. Suicide, this is ideology.

what the fuck are you talking about

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Of course Cuba is socialist- it's not perfection, it's by no means a model state but to argue that Cuba is not socialist is going a bit far.
Its not socialist in the sense that the workers do not have control over the means of production. There are small examples of democracy within labour relations, but the factories and industry are owned by the state, not the workers, and the workers are subject to whatever decisions the state makes, whilst having only limited say in the matter. There is free healthcare and free education, but the labour relations within these institutions are not essentially democratic, in my opinion.

It is an abstract form of socialism, by various definitions, but it is not a definition that I would agree with.

[ComradeMan]

Its not socialist in the sense that the workers do not have control over the means of production. There are small examples of democracy within labour relations, but the factories and industry are owned by the state, not the workers, and the workers are subject to whatever decisions the state makes, whilst having only limited say in the matter. There is free healthcare and free education, but the labour relations within these institutions are not essentially democratic, in my opinion.

It is an abstract form of socialism, by various definitions, but it is not a definition that I would agree with.

It's not necessarily my ideal of socialism either- but to state outright that Cuba is NOT a socialist country is going a bit far. But then again we run into the quagmire of definitions according to whom and all that!

[revolution inaction]

There is free healthcare and free education, but the labour relations within these institutions are not essentially democratic, in my opinion.

there is free health care and education in the uk and many other countries that no one would think of calling socialist, yet this is usally the only thing that people calling cuba socialist are able to come up with in defence of that idea



It's not necessarily my ideal of socialism either- but to state outright that Cuba is NOT a socialist country is going a bit far. But then again we run into the quagmire of definitions according to whom and all that!

in what sense is it socialist? you keep saying it is but in what way?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

there is free health care and education in the uk and many other countries that no one would think of calling socialist, yet this is usally the only thing that people calling cuba socialist are able to come up with in defence of that idea

I agree, I was only stating that by certain definitions, Cuba is socialist. This is not a definition I find correct.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

It's not necessarily my ideal of socialism either- but to state outright that Cuba is NOT a socialist country is going a bit far. But then again we run into the quagmire of definitions according to whom and all that!
Exactly, it depends on the definition you adhere to. Some people think that a country is socialist because all, or most areas of industry are nationalised. That is not true, according to other definitions of which I would subscribe to, therefore I would not go as far to call Cuba 'socialist'.

A planned economy does not equate to socialism, in my book, as a small group of people can plan an economy independently of the masses' direct involvement.

[ComradeMan]

Exactly, it depends on the definition you adhere to. Some people think that a country is socialist because all, or most areas of industry are nationalised. That is not true, according to other definitions of which I would subscribe to, therefore I would not go as far to call Cuba 'socialist'.

A planned economy does not equate to socialism, in my book, as a small group of people can plan an economy independently of the masses' direct involvement.

I have a "soft spot" for Cuba I admit but it is also mixed with disappointment too. I can't help but feel that had Cuba been allowed to continue without the embargo and without being used as a pawn by the USSR (hardly surprising given US antagonism) etc, things may have been better. I suppose it's because fundamentally I want Cuba to succeed against all odds and I also appreciate Fidel's sticking a finger up to you know who. At the same time I feel frustrated and disappointed that the Cuban Revolution has not achieved a lot of what it could have done. Nevertheless I think it's a better place than it would have been had the Cuban Revolution failed.

[PoliticalNightmare]

politicalquiz.net results Conservative/Progressive score: 3 You are a social conservative. You believe in traditional values, and care first and foremost about your country, your family, and your religion. You dislike the agenda of the left because you see them as trying to destroy these things.

This isn't the most revolutionary of practices. I don't mind people worshipping their own faiths but I hate the idea of organised religion (politics should be strictly secular) and the idea of telling another person what they can/can't believe in.

As for the 'agenda of the left', it wants people to live their lifestyles how they want to live them: it wants people to be able to explore their sexuality to the fullest if they desire it, it wants people to be understanding of homosexuality, other religions, cultures and ethnic minorities, it wants people to pursue their own desires (provided that these desires do not hurt others in some way, shape or form).


Capitalist Purist/Social Capitalist score: 12 You're a Social Capitalist, you think that, left to its own, Capitalism leaves a lot of people behind. You think that Health Care should be free to all, that the minimum wage should be raised, and that the government should provide jobs to all that are capable of having them. You likely hated the Bush tax cuts, and believe that the middle class has gotten poorer, and the rich have gotten richer over the past several years.

I'm glad that you think this way about capitalism. I think that with a little study you may become more affiliated with the socialist way of thinking.

We want people to be rewarded based upon their labour not based upon how much land, shares, wealth, etc. they own. Capitalism rewards people through interest (cleverly investing your money brings you this) and labour exploitation (a boss takes a percentage of his employee's product away from him).


The far extreme of social capitalism is socialism.

Err...not sure I agree with that. (I know you didn't write the test out, lol)


Libertarian/Authoritarian score: 9 You're an Authoritarian. You believe that that, left to their own, many people will do immoral or harmful things. You despise drug users, pornography, violence, and all other things that you consider immoral. You also think that security is often more important than protecting rights. You think children need to be protected from seeing these things so it doesn't warp their minds, and that the will of the majority sometimes is more important than the rights of the minority.

Although it doesn't matter how libertarian you are (you can be an authoritarian socialist) I personally feel that in the absence of rule and hierarchy, there is, not chaos and disorder, rather functionality and peace as each person has equal political power and the right to have a say in politics. We don't need some patronising, do-gooder nanny state to tell us how to live our lives to function as a society.

As for prostitution and drugs (as I'm guessing you're probably in favour of keeping these criminalised) - do you realise that decriminalising drugs would expose the black market and allow us to crack down on many drug dealers? Do you know that by legalising prostitution, prostitutes can legally work in a safer environment where they don't have to exploited by pimps and they don't have to get into cars, go to hotel rooms, etc. to work for clients? They can have a stationary base which would be much safer for them.


About the anarchism thing i think if there is anarchy you are left on your own, no society to protect you and you would have to defend yourself. there has to be some sort of hierarchy/government and the such to protect us with cops, ensure health care and education and all that.

I think you may have some misconceptions about anarchism.

Firstly anarchism relies on society to form its own social codes and ethics.

If you examine the history of the state closely, you will see that human rights have not originated from the state, rather, in the words of Rudolf Rocker,


Political rights do not originate in parliaments; they are rather forced upon them from without. And even their enactment into; law has for a long time been no guarantee of their security. They do not exist because they have been legally set down on a piece of paper, but only when they have become the ingrown habit of a people, and when any attempt to impair them will meet with the violent resistance of the populace. Where this is not the case, there is no help in any parliamentary opposition or any Platonic appeals to the constitution. One compels respect from others when one knows how to defend one's dignity as a human being. This is not only true in private life; it has always been the same in political life as well.

So we anarchists are people persons. We believe in big society, small government and small business. (In fact we believe in no government - minarchists believe in small government).

We believe that in the absence of government man would have common sense to come together and form their own organisations.

Social anarchism (as opposed to 'anarcho'-capitalism) is a form of libertarian socialism and therefore believes the workers should own industries, businesses, etc. in the absence of government regulation.

There is more detailed, and highly comprehensive information regarding anarchism here:

http://www.infoshop.org/page/AnAnarchistFAQ

So come on join us - the more the merrier! There'll be free drinks (it's communism after all) and it'll get you out of the opposing ideologies section.

If you want an idea of functional anarchy, look into the 1936 Spanish Revolution. The anarchists were among the first at the time to seriously resist against fascism as it was during the civil war. Other countries had just passively given up to the likes of Hitler and his counterparts. The anarchist trade unions offered military resistance against Francisco Franco and the fascist generals, set up workers' communes which organise labour and distribution of goods according to work value of labourers and every citizen has equal say in how they get managed.

p.s. order would be kept by the militia - voluntary arrangement of citizens who are not bounded by any contract and rewarded for their labour by workers' communes - and healthcare and education would be organised by workers' communes.

[ComradeMan]

I like the way the anarchist above offers a bribe "So come on join us - the more the merrier! There'll be free drinks (it's communism after all) and it'll get you out of the opposing ideologies section."

The dude's a Stalinist.:laugh:

(Lighthearted humour before the bandwagons get jumped on).

[PoliticalNightmare]

I like the way the anarchist above offers a bribe "So come on join us - the more the merrier! There'll be free drinks (it's communism after all) and it'll get you out of the opposing ideologies section."

The dude's a Stalinist.:laugh:

(Lighthearted humour before the bandwagons get jumped on).

Haha this one made me laugh.

I don't know that he is a Stalinist though. He did get something like -1.69 on the Authoritarian - Libertarian scale making him somewhat libertarian (though he claimed this was a mistake).

I don't think he knows that much yet about political beliefs so I'd like to bribe him into anarchism whilst he's still likely to be more naive :D

[Die Rote Fahne]

politicalcompass.org

[Bud Struggle]

I like the way the anarchist above offers a bribe "So come on join us - the more the merrier! There'll be free drinks (it's communism after all)

A correction Comrade--it will be free drugs! :D

[PoliticalNightmare]

A correction Comrade--it will be free drugs! :D

That too - and free women.

[Burn A Flag]

According to that quiz i'm a hardcore democrat! :laugh:

[ContrarianLemming]

That quiz is utter BS, any good marxist wud come out as a reformist democrat on it.

Anyhoo, the first thing you wanna do if you decide to take the plunge and go far left is ask yourself the following:

Is revolution necessary/most likely to bring about a better fairer society?

Is a classless society possible and desirable? (a society where no one is born into a class)

Is a stateless society possible? (a society in which there is total decentralized and self governance through direct democracy and local control)

Should the workers control there own workplace democratically? (as opposed to a boss or maneger)

Is bottom up, decentralized, democratic anti authoritarian organization the best kind of organization?

Is capitalism inherently exploitive?

Is society divided into clear classes? (is society class based)

If you say YES to all of the above then you are a far left winger, and belong here
the specifics on all the above will decide what kind of Marxist or anarchist you are, we are all either anarchists or marxists or somewhere inbetween.

[Revolution starts with U]

It got me basically correct. Anarchist, libertarian, anti-authoritarain, anti-imperialist social liberal.

[ContrarianLemming]

i "revolutionary" on the OKcupid quiz, that one is quite good, but it corrolates "stablity" with conservatism and authoritarianism, hey im stable.

[PoliticalNightmare]

i "revolutionary" on the OKcupid quiz, that one is quite good, but it corrolates "stablity" with conservatism and authoritarianism, hey im stable.


I think (though I haven't taken this particular quiz) that stable is just supposed to mean someone against radical changes in the political infrastructure. Since we are all revolutionaries, we are classed as "unstable".

[Ele'ill]

Well yes i am in the OI because i am a social-democrat. I am still trying to decide if i want to lean to the left, most likely permanent socialism. However i have discussed with a few people and my dad does not like communist countries, mainly Cuba. To the point is being a i guess capitalists would call extreme lefty/permanent socialism stupid ? Should i stick with being a social democrat ? your thoughts ?ThanksCommie77


A couple things on this

I don't know a lot about leftist history- it doesn't interest me and I refuse to get into debates about what things were or weren't because it is to a certain point irrelevant. So let me ask you this- regardless of the disagreement you and your father have about cuba- and what it was is or could have been are you a leftist now?

How do your ideas fit into our current times?

There are some people that think leftist stances from a historical point of view would have been really useful but do not think they are as relevant today- or perhaps they only want to apply them in certain situations etc..

It isn't so much about reading historical literature on Anarchism, Marxism, Leninism and deciding "which you want to be" but it is very much about realizing what your beliefs are now- what you hate about the world around you- what you want to change or see changed- and how you want to go about doing it. Activism is about action- it isn't a static position of 'being'.

How are you going to get there and how are you going to do it?


I identify as an Anarchist but I'm many other things as well- first I'm working poor- I've been working homeless. I've been a student- full time and part time. I've been things. I need things. What does anarchism have to offer me- what deviations do I want to make.

Think.

[Ocean Seal]

Well yes i am in the OI because i am a social-democrat. I am still trying to decide if i want to lean to the left, most likely permanent socialism. However i have discussed with a few people and my dad does not like communist countries, mainly Cuba. To the point is being a i guess capitalists would call extreme lefty/permanent socialism stupid ? Should i stick with being a social democrat ? your thoughts ?ThanksCommie77
The left is certainly not a stupid choice. While social democracy guarantees the people education and facilitates the revolution because of this the problem is that it is not sustainable. The extensive welfare programs combined with a higher unemployment rate than in scientific socialism cause these governments to be very high maintenance. Also keep in mind that the bourgeoisie still exist in here and thus they control a disproportionate amount of wealth. All this impoverishes the state and keeps the workers divided between those on welfare and those currently employed. This prevents actual progress until the state experiences significant financial trouble.
In actual socialism there exists no bourgeoisie class and therefore the economy grows and so does the personal wealth of the proletariat and because everyone earns according to their labor and there is extremely low unemployment, if any, there is no need for welfare. This allows the government to invest in things like education, healthcare, and national progression programs.

[Rafiq]

my dad does not like communist countries, mainly Cuba. 7

Since when do you have to follow your dad's view on Communism?

Listen, why don't you do some reading on it, and choose for yourself.

You're your own person, and you can decide for yourself.

Regardless of your dad's opinion.

[Conquer or Die]

Well yes i am in the OI because i am a social-democrat. I am still trying to decide if i want to lean to the left, most likely permanent socialism. However i have discussed with a few people and my dad does not like communist countries, mainly Cuba. To the point is being a i guess capitalists would call extreme lefty/permanent socialism stupid ? Should i stick with being a social democrat ? your thoughts ?ThanksCommie77

The important thing is to embrace the truth, regardless of whether or not it serves your personal feelings or not. Let the evidence persuade and guide, and don't guide and persuade the evidence.

[ComradeMan]

I think this boy has the making of a C21 Guavaran Insurgent.

He tends to lean toward more authoritarian hardcore soviet style politics, I don't think the anarchists are going to win him over somehow.

But as the poster above said- read up for yourself and adopt a critical eye, don't trust anything you read or someone tells you until you find out for yourself- and that goes for what I and anyone else here says too!!!!

You're your own man afterall!

[Commie77]

i will post a real post soon when i have time sorry, i have a lot of school work :S.

[MellowViper]

Well yes i am in the OI because i am a social-democrat. I am still trying to decide if i want to lean to the left, most likely permanent socialism. However i have discussed with a few people and my dad does not like communist countries, mainly Cuba. To the point is being a i guess capitalists would call extreme lefty/permanent socialism stupid ? Should i stick with being a social democrat ? your thoughts ?ThanksCommie77

You should be aware that socialism isn't about government control. That's something that right wingers have made socialism synonymous with in their propaganda. Workers can own the means of production without state control of all industry. Ever hear of worker self management, workplace democracy, and worker owned cooperatives? Look into the Mondragon corporation. I just thought I'd let you know this if you were unaware.

[lines]

Well yes i am in the OI because i am a social-democrat. I am still trying to decide if i want to lean to the left, most likely permanent socialism. However i have discussed with a few people and my dad does not like communist countries, mainly Cuba. To the point is being a i guess capitalists would call extreme lefty/permanent socialism stupid ? Should i stick with being a social democrat ? your thoughts ?ThanksCommie77

So how many times has your father been to Cuba?

[ComradeMan]

So how many times has your father been to Cuba?

If he's a US citizen then probably never and you could get arrested for going to Cuba on your return couldn't you?

Let's not forget, and perhaps blame people either, that his dad's generation did not grow up in the information age. There was perhaps a lot more general naive trust in leadership and people have been exposed to their various state-sanctioned propaganda campaigns for years. I try not to blame someone too much for being the product of their society either.

I think the information age scares the "old" society a lot.