France on Fire - General Strike Tomorrow

[Havet]

France is pretty hot right now (zing!), as the government wants to increase the retirement age in 2 years. And some other things too...

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Paris, France (CNN) -- Fuel continues to flow into France -- increasingly, from refineries out of the country -- as the nation deals with the ongoing effects of strikes that have affected car, train and plane travel throughout the European nation.
Jean-Louis Shilansky, the president of the French Union of Petroleum Industries, said 10 of France's 200 fuel terminals were blocked Monday by protesters opposed to a government cost-saving move that would raise the retirement age from 60 to 62. French unions had said that production has stopped at 12 of the nation's refineries.
Shilansky said there is a four-week supply of fuel in France, and any shortages can be resolved with shipments from other countries. In recent days, for instance, fuel imports "have increased substantially" from Russia, Italy, Spain and Germany, he said.
"The trouble is really logistics," Shilansky told CNN, and getting fuel to terminals.
About 1,000 gas stations across France have run out of fuel because strikers had blocked access to oil refineries and depots, Alexandre de Benoist, a Union of Independent Oil Importers official, told CNN on Monday.
The work stoppages at refineries has had a direct effect on the two main Paris airports, Orly and Charles de Gaulle. Half the flights from Orly airport will be canceled Tuesday because of the strikes, and 30 percent of flights from other airports in the city will be canceled, the French aviation authority announced Monday.
Both airports are supplied by a pipeline that comes directly from refineries that were shut down Friday, according to Trapil, the company that owns the line.
But Shilansky said that French airports are not in imminent danger of running out of fuel. If necessary, he said, France always can import more jet fuel.
French workers began their latest round of strikes a week ago, protesting against government plans to raise the retirement age and institute other pension reforms. The government, which contends that France can no longer afford the earlier retirement payments, has shown no sign of backing down. Analysts say pension reform will likely be a defining moment in the presidency of Nicolas Sarkozy.
Blasting Sarkozy during a CNN interview Saturday, Paris Mayor Bertrand Delanoe accused the French president of "arrogance." But Sarkozy insists the changes are needed because rising life expectancy increases the financial burden on the pension system.
A government crisis coordination task force met for the first time Monday to discuss the fuel situation, a spokesperson for the Ministry of the Interior said. The group, to be led by Interior Minister Brice Hortefeaux, will aim to "coordinate the action of different state departments to ensure a continuous fuel supply."
Prime Minister Francois Fillon said Sunday night he would "not let the French economy be choked by a blockade of fuel.
"There will not be a shortage because we are going to make the necessary decisions ... to ensure that this country is not blocked," he said on TF1 television.
Despite repeated national strikes over the controversial proposal, France's National Assembly last Wednesday approved Sarkozy's pension reform bill, which would raise the national retirement age.
The proposal passed 329 to 233, but still must pass the Senate to become law.
The Senate is expected to vote Wednesday.
Workers from both the public and private sectors are on strike, including those in transportation, education, justice, hospitals, media and banking. Students demonstrated in sympathy with the strikers Monday, with 261 high schools in "a state of disruption," the Ministry of Education said. More demonstrations are scheduled for Tuesday.
Belgium was also hit by strikes Monday, forcing the cancellation of high-speed Eurostar trains to the capital, Brussels, from Paris and London, England. A very limited bus service was scheduled to operate between Brussels and Lille, France, Eurostar said.
On Saturday, protesters in France formed a line stretching two miles near the historic Bastille Square in Paris, waving banners and shouting insults against Sarkozy's government, CNN's Jim Bittermann reported.
France's Interior Ministry said some 825,000 protesters turned out nationwide, while labor unions said 3.5 million protesters attended the more than 200 demonstrations across the country Saturday.

Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/10/18/france.strikes.shortage/index.html

Do you think the french people will succeed in stopping the increase in the retirement age or will the government end up imposing their will?

[ComradeMan]

I hope they do. But at the same time I didn't see them on strike so much for the deportation of the Roma so I have mixed feelings.

[Jazzhands]

mmm...riot porn...:drool:

[¿Que?]

n/m. Right on france.

[Magón]

I think that if the French Government does pass these measures, they're going to have a shit storm on their hands. And probably one that is ten times as big as it is now. (And from what I know, it's already pretty big.)

[RGacky3]

I hope they do. But at the same time I didn't see them on strike so much for the deportation of the Roma so I have mixed feelings.


I feel the same way, French workers are amungs the most militant, but the bigotry in france against muslims and now roma is dispicable.

[ComradeMan]

I feel the same way, French workers are amungs the most militant, but the bigotry in france against muslims and now roma is dispicable.

I'm glad you picked up on that one. There are a lot of problems in Roma society and sometimes I don't think the Roma always help themselves but you need to look at the individual- not a whole group. Come on France! Men in uniforms deporting people and putting them on trains based on "ethnicity"- doesn't it all sound too familiar?

[ContrarianLemming]

I keep thinking that if something radical was to happen in the west, it would be in France.

[ComradeMan]

I keep thinking that if something radical was to happen in the west, it would be in France.

Well, France always has been a "hotbed" of radical ideas- 1789 and since....;)

[RGacky3]

are a lot of problems in Roma society and sometimes I don't think the Roma always help themselves but you need to look at the individual- not a whole group.

There are problems in many societies, so what? It does'nt give you any right to deport people.

(I know you agree, it just really bothers me the bigotry over there).

[Bud Struggle]

I'm glad you picked up on that one. There are a lot of problems in Roma society and sometimes I don't think the Roma always help themselves but you need to look at the individual- not a whole group. Come on France! Men in uniforms deporting people and putting them on trains based on "ethnicity"- doesn't it all sound too familiar?

It's interesting the way the French are "Communist" where their own welfare is concerned--but "Fascist" when other people's welfare is at stake.

[ComradeMan]

There are problems in many societies, so what? It does'nt give you any right to deport people.

(I know you agree, it just really bothers me the bigotry over there).

Exactly....!

[28350]

Déjà vu

[Conquer or Die]

Ronald Reagan's first major action as president was busting the Air-Trans Controller strike of 1980. Different law and tradition in France than in America but the message was clearly sent that he would not operate in accordance with the public sector or the general labor force.

I think ultimately France will succeed in raising the retirement age. There have been plenty of revolutions in France that have flatlined. The Eighteenth Brumaire and May 68 being the most notable two. Notice these failures with the aforementioned French Nationalist Racism and you'll get a much clearer picture of the French National character.

[ckaihatsu]

---





I think ultimately France will succeed in raising the retirement age. There have been plenty of revolutions in France that have flatlined.





Capitalists insist that only the workers go on strike…yet what is an economic crisis but a general strike of capital?

When workers go on strike, capitalists move to break it by forcibly reasserting the core capitalist employer-employee relation of production, by any means necessary.

Now that capitalists are going on strike via economic crisis, we workers, too, can move to smash this general strike…by smashing capitalist relations of production!

[RGacky3]

It's interesting the way the French are "Communist" where their own welfare is concerned--but "Fascist" when other people's welfare is at stake.

Unfortunately yeah, that being said the workers in France know how to get what they want, Americans can learn a big lesson from them, you can't VOTE for change, you need to take it.

I also think the French and Americans need to take a lesson from I don't know who about bigotry. America is'nt as bad as France when it comes to bigotry against Muslims and immigrants, but its getting pretty nasty.

[ComradeMan]

Unfortunately yeah, that being said the workers in France know how to get what they want, Americans can learn a big lesson from them, you can't VOTE for change, you need to take it.

I also think the French and Americans need to take a lesson from I don't know who about bigotry. America is'nt as bad as France when it comes to bigotry against Muslims and immigrants, but its getting pretty nasty.

I agree that bigotry exists and it is interesting to compare the two situations:-

I found these stats on the muslim population of the US- as the US doesn't take religious conviction down statistically they vary a lot and are open to discussion.

American Religious Identification Survey 1.3 million (2008)
Pew Research Center 2.5 million (2009)
Encyclopædia Britannica 4.7 million (2004)
U.S. News & World Report 5 million+ (2008)
Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) 7 million

So let's say 3.5 million would be a crude mean estimate. So taken on US estimates of population for 2010 that's 1.127% of the population.

On the other France has approx. 4,155,000, 70% of whom come from French speaking (Arabic/French bilingual) Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. The total muslim population being 6.348% of the French population based on 2010 estimates. France is also a lot smaller than the US in terms of geographical size and the main muslim communities tend to be concentrated in the French metropoles.

The US is a land of immigration whereas France is one of the oldest unified/defined states in Europe. France is also a lot closer to the Islamic world in geography but also has historical ties in the Islamic world dating from the Medieval Period right through to the modern colonial and post-colonial periods up to present. The US on the other hand is geographically a distant power that only relatively recently, within the last century and predominantly post-WII has had a role in the Islamic world- albeit somewhat negative and does not share a linguistic "tie" with the Islamic world.

But it's funny what perceptions do. If someone asked me, who were more bigotted towards Islamic and/or Arabic peoples then I would say Americans, not the French- on the inernet I have come across the world "towel head" many times and in US films there was a whole period when Arabic-like characters were always evil, sneaky, cowardly and portrayed in a bad light. Now, you say the opposite. :confused:

Interesting what perceptions do isn't it?

[Bud Struggle]

Unfortunately yeah, that being said the workers in France know how to get what they want, Americans can learn a big lesson from them, you can't VOTE for change, you need to take it.

I also think the French and Americans need to take a lesson from I don't know who about bigotry. America is'nt as bad as France when it comes to bigotry against Muslims and immigrants, but its getting pretty nasty.

Big French holiday. As I said before they are having a party. In a little while they will settle down to their real occupation--hating Moslems.

You can't proclaim all things good for you without making the same case for the people next door--no matter how they look of how they believe and still be a Radical.

This is all nonsense--or something more sinister.

[RGacky3]

Big French holiday. As I said before they are having a party.

Based on what? As far as it looks it seams like they are trying to save their pensions, having a party??? What are you talking about?


You can't proclaim all things good for you without making the same case for the people next door

Americans do it all the time.


This is all nonsense--or something more sinister.

As much as I dispise the bigotry, it does'nt minimise what they are doing here.

BTW, there is no evidence that the ones protesting are the same ones that deport the roma and ban religious clothing.

What your saying is akin to in the 60s saying "Well in America there is segregation, so I guess the womans rights movement is a joke."

[ComradeMan]

Based on what? As far as it looks it seams like they are trying to save their pensions, having a party??? What are you talking about?

Americans do it all the time.

As much as I dispise the bigotry, it does'nt minimise what they are doing here.

BTW, there is no evidence that the ones protesting are the same ones that deport the roma and ban religious clothing.

The original point was where was all this solidarity when the Roma were being rounded up? The students have come out on a strike for an issue that, in itself, is justified but the mixed feeling come from the sense that there was no solidarity when it was an issue that did not directly affect them.

[Bud Struggle]

Based on what? As far as it looks it seams like they are trying to save their pensions, having a party??? What are you talking about? Same as the "Anarchists" strikes in Greece--how's Anarchy doing over there? :D


Americans do it all the time. No where near as bad in the US.


As much as I dispise the bigotry, it does'nt minimise what they are doing here.

BTW, there is no evidence that the ones protesting are the same ones that deport the roma and ban religious clothing.

What your saying is akin to in the 60s saying "Well in America there is segregation, so I guess the womans rights movement is a joke."

The problem with the French is that they don't produce as much as they spend. That's all.

[RGacky3]

Same as the "Anarchists" strikes in Greece--how's Anarchy doing over there? :D


Well ask yourself, why does french have such a good social system, I'll give you a hint, its the strikes.


No where near as bad in the US.


Remember segregation? Arizona laws?


The problem with the French is that they don't produce as much as they spend. That's all.

You got numbers on that?

[RGacky3]

BTW, this is another example of your hypocrisy, the French have some racist laws, so the good things they do and the social justice they fight for does'nt count.

America invades countries illigally, kills thousands of innocents, has racist laws too, but forget all that, because its America and you are allowed to wear a cross.

[Bud Struggle]

Well ask yourself, why does french have such a good social system, I'll give you a hint, its the strikes. Now ask yourself--why is it falling apart.

Same answer. :D


Remember segregation? Arizona laws? Actually quite different. the french are against LEGAL aliens. the people in Arizona are protesting illegal aliens.


You got numbers on that? It's a shortfall in the french economy. Britain has the same problem so does Greece and the USA. People live too well for the amount of money they make.

Too much credit.

[RGacky3]

Now ask yourself--why is it falling apart.

Same answer. :D


How so? So your saying they are trying to rise the age BECAUSE of the strikes? You do realize the strikes happened after it was gonna happen???

Whats the connection?


Actually quite different. the french are against LEGAL aliens. the people in Arizona are protesting illegal aliens.


The law in Arizona applies to people who "look illigal" which means hispanics.


It's a shortfall in the french economy. Britain has the same problem so does Greece and the USA. People live too well for the amount of money they make.

Too much credit.

Wheres the numbers??? Otherwise your just full of shit.

As far as I can tell people in the USA live pretty bad considering how much money is in the economy (problem is its all owned by the top 1%).

[BuddhaInBabylon]

The us is shit. The People of France need to overthrow their government, and beer tastes good.
I read something in the express news today, a quote of the French Prime Minister's that said something to the effect of 'nobody has the right to hold an entire country hostage blah blah blah blah' and all i could think of, was that he could have just as easily been talking about America....it made me want to vomit.

[ComradeMan]

The us is shit. The People of France need to overthrow their government, and beer tastes good.
I read something in the express news today, a quote of the French Prime Minister's that said something to the effect of 'nobody has the right to hold an entire country hostage blah blah blah blah' and all i could think of, was that he could have just as easily been talking about America....it made me want to vomit.


You see a lot of older Americans will say to the French, "The US wasn't so shit when those boys came running up the beaches at Normandy".

[ryacku]

What's next? The sixth republic? The Third Empire? Bah. France.

[timbaly]

On the other France has approx. 4,155,000, 70% of whom come from French speaking (Arabic/French bilingual) Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. The total muslim population being 6.348% of the French population based on 2010 estimates. France is also a lot smaller than the US in terms of geographical size and the main muslim communities tend to be concentrated in the French metropoles.

Just wondering what those numbers are based upon. France doesn't collect religious affiliation in its census does it?

[Ocean Seal]

It might be optimistic, but I don't think that the government will get away with anything. In addition to the 62 years of age retirement they also want people to have worked for 41 years (or something) before they retire. This largely aggravates the young university populace. I don't think that anyone is with Sarko on this. :scared:

[ComradeMan]

Just wondering what those numbers are based upon. France doesn't collect religious affiliation in its census does it?

It's based on the numbers coming from or having origins in Islamic countries, it's far from perfect.
l'Islam dans la République (Haut Conseil à l'intégration, November 2000, p. 26
http://www.euro-islam.info/ei/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/kuru_secularism_state_policies_and_islam_in_europe .pdf

The number vary from 6-10% and also this is of course not an survey of belief but more of background as such. But the figures give a rough idea at least.

[RedMaterialist]

[QUOTE=Havet;1899404

Do you think the french people will succeed in stopping the increase in the retirement age or will the government end up imposing their will?[/QUOTE]

Does anyone know of a blog, website, etc. from France (esp. Paris) on which you can get current, reliable information on what is going on? In English? We have to know the actual facts on the ground (as someone once said.):cool:

[Robert]

More lies from the right on France's ongoing struggle:


French unions have been forced onto the back foot after clashes between a small hard core of violent protesters and police (http://observers.france24.com/content/20101019-live-blogging-protests-against-pension-reform-across-france-october-19), according to a leading French labour expert. The violence this week, amid huge country-wide strikes, blockades (http://www.france24.com/en/20101019-who-is-on-strike-france-pensions-retirement-protests-sarkozy) and demonstrations, has weakened the unions and played directly into the hands of the government, according to Bernard Vivier, director of France’s Higher Institute of Labour (a leading French thinktank).


“The unions are embarrassed by this violence, which is led by anarchist elements of the unions who want to derail any attempts to negotiate with the government,” he told FRANCE 24.
“It has put the brakes on the unions’ momentum, while they themselves recognise that reforms to the pension system are needed,” he added. “These violent protesters want to do anything possible to stop negotiations, and their actions have shot the protest movement in the foot.”

Official spokespeople from France’s major unions were unavailable for comment when this article was published ....


The government is hoping that the protests will gradually fizzle out, as a 10-day half-term holiday begins and schools, which have been the focus of much of the violence, shut their doors.



http://www.france24.com/en/20101020-france-violent-protests-unions-retirement-sarkozy-pension-hortefeux-petrol

[Fabrizio]

Big French holiday. As I said before they are having a party. In a little while they will settle down to their real occupation--hating Moslems.

You can't proclaim all things good for you without making the same case for the people next door--no matter how they look of how they believe and still be a Radical.

This is all nonsense--or something more sinister.

Not really, they want to defend their way of life. I live in London but most of the time you wouldn't guess it, there is no social cohesion, the different ethnic groups basically do what they want and don't integrate at all, but expect Britain to allow it, which would never happen in their countries of origin. Also don't forget that Islamist terrorists have threatened France, not the other way around.

Whether or not the French way is economically effective is up for them to debate. I think strikes are destructive, but they are no more destructive than the neo-liberal model, and I would imagine that Sarkozy's neo-liberal profile has much to do with provoking the strikes - if you had someone there who could present a coherent economic plan you would perhaps have more co-operation in reform.

The Americans and Brits don't have any right to preach to the French - what George Osborne is doing in Britain is bringing the country to its knees more effectively than the French CGT could ever dream of! (What is it they say about far-left and far-right morphing into the same thing?)

[ComradeMan]

Not really, they want to defend their way of life. I live in London but most of the time you wouldn't guess it, there is no social cohesion, the different ethnic groups basically do what they want and don't integrate at all, but expect Britain to allow it, which would never happen in their countries of origin. Also don't forget that Islamist terrorists have threatened France, not the other way around.

Whether or not the French way is economically effective is up for them to debate. I think strikes are destructive, but they are no more destructive than the neo-liberal model, and I would imagine that Sarkozy's neo-liberal profile has much to do with provoking the strikes - if you had someone there who could present a coherent economic plan you would perhaps have more co-operation in reform.

The Americans and Brits don't have any right to preach to the French - what George Osborne is doing in Britain is bringing the country to its knees more effectively than the French CGT could ever dream of! (What is it they say about far-left and far-right morphing into the same thing?)

A few dubiously reactionary statements there.

[Robert]

The Americans and Brits don't have any right to preach to the French

Au contraire, mon ami. We know it's their business. And I actually feel sorry for them.

The British appear to know how to balance the books, and you don't see riots by the opposition in Liverpool and London. Maybe you will, I don't know.

Jazzratt?

[Reznov]

A few dubiously reactionary statements there.

How do you know? Do you live in London?

I think there is some truth to what he says, and it is important we find out why.

[Fabrizio]

Au contraire, mon ami. We know it's their business. And I actually feel sorry for them.

So do I. I'm an OIer not a revolutionary. :D And please note that I clarified that I do not thinkt he French situation is a good one. However, I think that their defence of their way of life is less destructive long-term than the scorch and burn economics of the British govt., for example. The French could be won round to reasonable reform by a coherent economic programme designed to protect their model and way of life.

And on the point of the measures taken to defend their culture such as the Burkah ban, I don't feel sorry for them, I think they are showing the way for Europe. I'm interested to see communists views on this - surely eradication of these kinds of divisions is something a socialist society would embark on too?

[Robert]

To be clear, I don't mean that I feel sorry that the government may lift the French retirement age all the way up to ...

62.:scared:

[The Grey Blur]

actually the government's attacks on the rom and muslim communities is one of the major reasons why these strikes are such a major issue. student and left-wing anger over what are described as "fascist" laws is propelling them into the street as much as to defend the current pension age.

[Fabrizio]

To be clear, I don't mean that I feel sorry that the government may lift the French retirement age all the way up to ...

62.:scared:

I know what you meant FFS. How many times do I have to say it before you read it: I think the strikes are destructive.

This doesn't mean I have to agree with Sarko's project or Anglo-Saxon style neoliebralism does it?

[Publius]

As much as I like a good riot, I can't help but feel that these retirement age increases (assuming that's what's behind this) are probably necessary.

It sucks (for them), but countries like France (and America, and Britain, and Germany, etc.) are not as rich as they used to be. And they likely won't ever be again.

Of course it sucks that it's workers and not capitalists getting fucked, but that's always the case anyway.

[ComradeMan]

As much as I like a good riot, I can't help but feel that these retirement age increases (assuming that's what's behind this) are probably necessary.

It sucks (for them), but countries like France (and America, and Britain, and Germany, etc.) are not as rich as they used to be. And they likely won't ever be again.

Of course it sucks that it's workers and not capitalists getting fucked, but that's always the case anyway.

That's just bullshit from top to bottom. Raising the retirement age and cutting back on state benefits yet at the same time pouring billions of proletarian earned money into foundering banks and financial institutions in order to save the shareholders' interests is just complete cap-sense, i.e. non-sense.

The only reason these countries in Europe are cutting benefits and raising retirement ages etc is that there is no need for capitalism to keep its reserve army of workers ready. Europe does not produce, it consumes- so they don't need producers they need consumers.

All this bullshit about things getting back to normal too- what a load of crap! It's like telling someone with a lung cancer that after the op they can go back to smoking 40 a day. The normal situation was what caused the problem in the first place.

They want people working, off the state, and they want people using credit- because it's credit and being in debt that keeps their whole miserable, stinking, venomous parassitic fucking sytem going. The worst kind of customer a bank in this current system has is the one that pays his or her debts and keeps an account in postive balance.

[ckaihatsu]

I can't help but feel that these retirement age increases (assuming that's what's behind this) are probably necessary.


This only begs the question -- since you're acknowledging that the nation-states are basically insolvent and that the capitalists are the gainers in the situation, compelling workers to work more (by raising the retirement age) won't do much at all -- if anything -- to benefit national infrastructure. The surplus labor value, through profits, just gets vacuumed up into private pockets.

In this way there's no grounds for claiming that additional labor effort is "probably necessary".

[ComradeMan]

This only begs the question -- since you're acknowledging that the nation-states are basically insolvent and that the capitalists are the gainers in the situation, compelling workers to work more (by raising the retirement age) won't do much at all -- if anything -- to benefit national infrastructure. The surplus labor value, through profits, just gets vacuumed up into private pockets.

In this way there's no grounds for claiming that additional labor effort is "probably necessary".


I agree, it's not about workers working more- it's about the state paying less and investing less in people from whom capitalism does not make a profit nor is likely to in the future.

[RGacky3]

To be clear, I don't mean that I feel sorry that the government may lift the French retirement age all the way up to ...

62.:scared:


2 years is a long time, it should be up to the people when they retire should'nt it.

[Robert]

I know what you meant FFS. How many times do I have to say it before you read it: I think the strikes are destructive.

Take it easy. I heard you, I was just clarifying that I feel badly for what I fear will be the cost of the strikes to the French economy, and small businesses that I am sympathetic to. As for ordinary workers who have to work till 62? Not so much. Now ... tell me why the strikes are so wonderful in your opinion? KIDDING!!!:lol:


Of course it sucks that it's workers and not capitalists getting fucked, but that's always the case anyway.

Publius, I don't know if you mean that they are getting fucked by this legislation because the government is reneging on a deal, or because they have a natural right to retire at 60, or that the deficits could be solved with more progressive taxation on the rich, or ... what?

It's a complicated issue: the longer you make people stay in the workforce, the longer grows the line of young graduates who need jobs themselves.
It's also unfair to make a dock worker or a miner (!) who busts his balls all day work for as long as an office worker to get the same benefits at the same age, but calculating a fair retirement date is not easy. And then you get in to guys who worked in an air conditioned office for 20 years but mined coal for "only" 3.

This just in ... the French Senate has approved the reform. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-22/french-senate-passes-sarkozy-bill-increasing-retirement-age-to-62-from-60.html) I think it kicks in gradually: they aren't going to make a guy 59 years old work 3 more years, but I'm not sure. That is complicated too.

[Fabrizio]

Take it easy. I heard you, I was just clarifying that I feel badly for what I fear will be the cost of the strikes to the French economy, and small businesses that I am sympathetic to.

Fair enough then. Apologies! :cool:

[Havet]

2 years is a long time, it should be up to the people when they retire should'nt it.

Wouldn't a lot of people want to retire at 40/50 years old? How could that system be sustainable?

[ComradeMan]

Wouldn't a lot of people want to retire at 40/50 years old? How could that system be sustainable?

It's not sustainable under capitalism that's why it doesn't really happen.

[Havet]

It's not sustainable under capitalism that's why it doesn't really happen.

I think its unsustainable regardless of the economic system. Only in an utopian-futuristic-cornucopia-technocracy it might happen. But i'm not holding my breath for it.

[ComradeMan]

I think its unsustainable regardless of the economic system. Only in an utopian-futuristic-cornucopia-technocracy it might happen. But i'm not holding my breath for it.

I don't think it's impossible but we would have to redefine everything. I think we tend to project past and current structures onto hypothetical post-revolutionary situations.

[ckaihatsu]

I agree, it's not about workers working more- it's about the state paying less and investing less in people from whom capitalism does not make a profit nor is likely to in the future.


I'd like to refine this political sentiment -- more to the point is, where do the public funds go???!!!

We've just witnessed a historic bailout of balance sheets, all from public revenues -- what does the public, or the nation-state, get from giving up those funds?! The very existence of the nation-state is being called into question economically, politically, in terms of services, in terms of being a *public* entity, etc.

[ckaihatsu]

I think its unsustainable regardless of the economic system. Only in an utopian-futuristic-cornucopia-technocracy it might happen. But i'm not holding my breath for it.





I don't think it's impossible but we would have to redefine everything. I think we tend to project past and current structures onto hypothetical post-revolutionary situations.


I'll note here that, as revolutionaries, that's what we do -- redefine everything (away from the bourgeois framework and mindset). And, defining some possibilities beyond our current structures is *also* part of it, just as one would *visualize* doing *any* kind of a task as a preparation for then doing it.

[RGacky3]

I think its unsustainable regardless of the economic system.

Why not? If production was not based on profit and rather just social needs, there goes a lot of production.

[ComradeMan]

Why not? If production was not based on profit and rather just social needs, there goes a lot of production.

Exactly. If you cut out the needless mass production to create surplus in order to "supply" the so-called "demand" (not based on need) it radically changes the whole situation.

The whole current situation is like a time-bomb, okay they might be able to tweak the mechanism and delay the outcome but from all points of view, economic, social, environmental and so on- it's going to blow up in everyone's faces.

[Thirsty Crow]

So, the French are bigots and racists??
Nice generalization, very nice.
It might just be that you're identifying the French working class, students and other protesters with French government.
And have you any evidence for such a claim?
And no, the evidence in the form of "Well, they didn't strike when the gov't deported the Roma" does not count as evidence.

[ComradeMan]

So, the French are bigots and racists??
Nice generalization, very nice.
It might just be that you're identifying the French working class, students and other protesters with French government.
And have you any evidence for such a claim?
And no, the evidence in the form of "Well, they didn't strike when the gov't deported the Roma" does not count as evidence.


No one was saying, at least I wasn't, that the French are all bigots and racists. The mixed feelings I expressed were due to the apparant lack of solidarity and a strike for the deportation issue of the Roma. Don't blow things up out of proportion with strawmen.:rolleyes:

[Bilan]

It's a shortfall in the french economy. Britain has the same problem so does Greece and the USA. People live too well for the amount of money they make.

Too much credit.

And yet they don't have the highest standard of living in the world.
How can someone who is conscious of the fact that for a bourgeois economy to have any benefits at all it must go into a mass amount of debt still support a bourgeois economy?
That is truly mind boggling.

[Bilan]

No one was saying, at least I wasn't, that the French are all bigots and racists. The mixed feelings I expressed were due to the apparant lack of solidarity and a strike for the deportation issue of the Roma. Don't blow things up out of proportion with strawmen.:rolleyes:

That isn't a well founded/well thought out argument. Roma people are demonised in the media. The media has an enormous impact on peoples perceptions of others.
In addition to that fact, most people who are from France have stories of their own experiences of sketchy 'gypsies'.
What people in France aren't aware of is that they're merely exporting a problem (that is, poverty stricken people) rather than undermining the cause (capitalism).
And your location is ambiguous. Where are you from exactly? Because I've no doubt that where ever it is your from, there is a particular group of people who are scapegoated just as the Roma are in France.

[Thirsty Crow]

No one was saying, at least I wasn't, that the French are all bigots and racists. The mixed feelings I expressed were due to the apparant lack of solidarity and a strike for the deportation issue of the Roma. Don't blow things up out of proportion with strawmen.:rolleyes:

In fact, I wasn't speaking about you, but rather about our Mr. Bud Struggle.

[ComradeMan]

In fact, I wasn't speaking about you, but rather about our Mr. Bud Struggle.

Okay.... But Bud does have a point too in his own buddish way. I think he's trying to point out what he sees as hypocrisy in terms of a global solidarity perspective.