Somalia

[PoliticalNightmare]

Some of our 'anarcho'-capitalist 'friends' keep uing the word anarchy to describe Somalia. They state that whilst the economy is pretty bad that it was never good to begin with and it has improved since any form of centralised government was abolished. They also state that living standards have improved somewhat and that there is far less violence; the only violence existing in the few places where there is still centralised government.

How does one refute these claims?

Cheers.

[CHEGUAVARA]

Now I might not be the one who knows the most on the subject, but even a real idiot would understand that Somalia is definitely NOT anarchist. It's simply a country ruined by war, and there never was any attempt at making Somalia anarchist.

[PoliticalNightmare]

Now I might not be the one who knows the most on the subject, but even a real idiot would understand that Somalia is definitely NOT anarchist. It's simply a country ruined by war, and there never was any attempt at making Somalia anarchist.

You're missing the point; no anarcho-capitalist is claiming that Somalia is peaceful or with a booming economy. They are claiming that the economy has improved (somewhat) since the abolition of centralised government and that living standards have improved (somewhat).

I need statistics and articles that prove otherwise.

[Reznov]

They are claiming that the economy has improved (somewhat) since the abolition of centralised government and that living standards have improved (somewhat).

I need statistics and articles that prove otherwise.

If the economy has improved (somewhat), then why are people having to resort to piracy to make an income?

[Magón]

Some of our 'anarcho'-capitalist 'friends' keep uing the word anarchy to describe Somalia. They state that whilst the economy is pretty bad that it was never good to begin with and it has improved since any form of centralised government was abolished. They also state that living standards have improved somewhat and that there is far less violence; the only violence existing in the few places where there is still centralised government.

How does one refute these claims?

Cheers.

Simply show him Somalia on the news. Doesn't matter if it's Left or Right, they both show Somali people as being poor and in the dumps like they have for years upon years. It's hard to make something work, when your nation is in constant war in one part or another. Or in this case, just the whole damn place.

[ContrarianLemming]

Some of our 'anarcho'-capitalist 'friends' keep uing the word anarchy to describe Somalia. They state that whilst the economy is pretty bad that it was never good to begin with and it has improved since any form of centralised government was abolished. They also state that living standards have improved somewhat and that there is far less violence; the only violence existing in the few places where there is still centralised government.

How does one refute these claims?

Cheers.

surprising, most of that is true, Somalia has improved since it went to anarcho capitalism, that just goes to show how bad there old state really was.

Now they live under a new state, but it's not anarchy, they live under warlordism.

[ContrarianLemming]

If the economy has improved (somewhat), then why are people having to resort to piracy to make an income?

This was going on for a very long time in Somalia, things have indeed gotten better.

[PoliticalNightmare]

This was going on for a very long time in Somalia, things have indeed gotten better.

Then damn it, I have nothing to say to my opponents except 'You're right".

Come on, there must be some sort of statistics out there that prove how bad the situation is. I am in desperate need for more substance in this area of debate.

[CHEGUAVARA]

You're missing the point; no anarcho-capitalist is claiming that Somalia is peaceful or with a booming economy. They are claiming that the economy has improved (somewhat) since the abolition of centralised government and that living standards have improved (somewhat).

I need statistics and articles that prove otherwise.
I just meant that war has nothing to do with anarchism.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Then damn it, I have nothing to say to my opponents except 'You're right".

Come on, there must be some sort of statistics out there that prove how bad the situation is. I am in desperate need for more substance in this area of debate.

Actually CL (and the "anarcho-capitalists", ironically) are correct, in that Somalia after Siad Barre was actually probably better than it was under him. See also (http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1880).

Somalia is a prime example of Euro-chauvinism fucking things up. It's a completely arbitrary state (like much of the rest of Africa, really), and the clan system in Somalia is so deeply embedded that creating a modern nation-state is extremely difficult. Most of the pictures of Somalia in ruins are shots of Mogadishu, were the state apparatus was strongest, and therefore was hit the hardest when the state collapsed during the revolution; in other parts of Somalia it's somewhat better. Instead of just leaving Somalia along, though, and letting the situation resolve itself in an orderly fashion (as is what was beginning to happen with the Islamic Courts Union), the UN seems to have a fanatical desire to keep fanning the flames in Somalia with the help of Ethiopia and the AU. (It's worth mentioning that a large portion of Somalia, called Somaliland, is actually very stable, with a de-facto state that has been petitioning for statehood for a while now).

Also, in regards to Somalia's pirates: many of them started out as protectors of Somalia's coastlines. They were upset that companies were using Somalia's coast as a dumping ground for waste, so they'd gather up militias in the cities and go out to stop them. Eventually this turned into straight-up piracy. see also (http://towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/1567/1/)

[revolution inaction]

If the economy has improved (somewhat), then why are people having to resort to piracy to make an income?
arent the pirates part of the economy to? so if the pirates do better the economy as a whole does to?