How does Council Communism differ from Marxism-Leninism?

[cowslayer]

The October Revolution happened in large part due to the Soviets in Russia. The soviets gained significant power in Petrograd and other Russian cities.

During the short rule of the Provisional Government, it is said that there existed a bicameral government system in Russia. One ruled by the RPG and the others were with the Soviets.

So if a Soviet, a workers council which allows workers to democratically decide the fate of an enterprise and have a voice in their work environment, how is it different from today's Council Communism?

Is Council Communism just Marxism-Leninism (Soviet Democracy) without the vanguard party for the revolution, instead relying on the workers councils as a whole for the revolution?

[Paulappaul]

Council Communism is movement which developed in a historical movement when the Conciseness of German working class peaked with all out revolution in many counties which lead to the formation of Workers' Councils, in a time when the Communist and Socialist parties - as well has the labor unions - reaked of opportunism and well frankly, stupidy.

While it was the product of past historical events it really culminated with the KAPD - a council communist party in Germany - and the AAUD - a "workers union" aligned to the Councilist movement.

The KAPD was really a federation of local parties united only by name and program - a refusal to work parliament, trade unions and the upholding of spontaneity. The AAUD was modeled after the Industrial workers' of the Worlds and was really the heart of the party.

The Councilists in the KAPD and the AAUD really disagreed on their function, for Herman Gorter the KAPD was a revolutionary party, that of which would change the character of the 3rd International towards Council Communism. For Otto Ruhle the Party was really not a party in the traditional sense of the word, but was a party to educate and unite the class conciseness working class and the AAUD was really the heart of the movement.

Pannekoek took a 3rd position and said that the creation of a party was unnecessary, existing parties should be converted to KAPD position and subordinated to the AAUD's position, but mostly that the Working Class will lead it's own struggles and the job of revolutionaries is very small.

The organization and lessons of the this "German Left" became combined with other Left Communist and Councilists tendency's over the past century to form Council Communism.

Marxism Leninism lays more stress on the leadership of the Communist party to inject into the Working Class revolutionary conciseness and to have a highly centralized party lead out a struggle.

Marxist Leninist parties view themselves as the defacto revolutionary party and thus Workers' Councils don't exist with multiple parties in them, only the Leninist Party.

Marxist Leninism strives to participate and take control of Parliament and Trade Unions.

In Contrast, Council Communists take almost the opposite position on everything. Councilist parties are not centralized, but a federation of independent political branches. Workers' Councils are means to revolution and they arise spontaneously and remain autonomous of Political Parties. Working in Parliament and Trade Unions is pointless.


Is Council Communism just Marxism-Leninism (Soviet Democracy) without the vanguard party for the revolution, instead relying on the workers councils as a whole for the revolution?

So no I think it's more indepth then that.

[Zanthorus]

Well, for one, Council Communists considered the Russian revolution to have either been a dual revolution, with workers' taking power in the urban areas and peasant war in the countryside, a dual revolution which succumbed because of the weakness of the proletariat at the time, or to have been a purely bourgeois revolution. In general they rejected support for the Soviet bloc and it's allies and offshoots.

Council Communists also rejected parliamentary struggles and participation in reactionary craft and trade unions, instead orientating themselves towards 'revolutionary' industrial unions like the IWW and the AAUD as organisations which were supposed to bridge the gap between the trade and craft unions of the past and the factory councils of the future.

As the movement developed they also came to reject party organisation.

[Paulappaul]

The growth of the KAPD came also with the tendency of Industrial Unionism in Germany. During the summer of 1919 there was a spontaneous emergence - although somewhat on the part of the Bremen Left - of Factory Councils of which separated from their old Trade Unions.

Many of these councils formed a syndicalist federation called the FAUD - Free Workers' Union of Germany - which aspired the creation of Industrial Unions. On the other hand, a new form of organization was arising called Arbeiter-Unionen (Workers' Union) The theoretical program of the 'workers' union' movement was the concept of 'unitary organization', which had been intensely propagandized by the Bremen left since 1917. Although they shared many common ideological elements, the 'workers' unions' differed from the syndicalist factory organizations in their willingness to affiliate with the communist movement and their acceptance of a future state organized on the basis of the council system as described by Anton Pannekoek and Sylvia Pankhurst.

The organization of Workers' Unions were basically the same as Workers' Councils. Their were some ideological and tactical differences which separated them from FAUD, which was based more the current I.W.W. which rested more in the economic field of things rather then the Political. The AAUD's organization was more similar to Deleon's conception of organization.

[Zanthorus]

Paulappaul:

The above was really helpful in connection with what I posted on your profile about. Can you give me some sources to work with on this subject? Thanks :)

[Paulappaul]

No problem, John Gerber's From Left Radicalism to Council Communism: Anton Pannekoek and German Revolutionary Marxism (http://libcom.org/files/left%20radicalism.pdf) goes very indepth on origins and organization of the KAPD and the AAUD. While is starts out pretty slow, it gives a nice overview of Pannekoek's life and the different tendencies within the German Left.

[Widerstand]

The growth of the KAPD came also with the tendency of Industrial Unionism in Germany. During the summer of 1919 there was a spontaneous emergence - although somewhat on the part of the Bremen Left - of Factory Councils of which separated from their old Trade Unions.

Many of these councils formed a syndicalist federation called the FAUD - Free Workers' Union of Germany - which aspired the creation of Industrial Unions. On the other hand, a new form of organization was arising called Arbeiter-Unionen (Workers' Union) The theoretical program of the 'workers' union' movement was the concept of 'unitary organization', which had been intensely propagandized by the Bremen left since 1917. Although they shared many common ideological elements, the 'workers' unions' differed from the syndicalist factory organizations in their willingness to affiliate with the communist movement and their acceptance of a future state organized on the basis of the council system as described by Anton Pannekoek and Sylvia Pankhurst.

The organization of Workers' Unions were basically the same as Workers' Councils. Their were some ideological and tactical differences which separated them from FAUD, which was based more the current I.W.W. which rested more in the economic field of things rather then the Political. The AAUD's organization was more similar to Deleon's conception of organization.

If the FAUD was more on the side of the IWW and less on the syndicalist side, how did the FAU (which afaik is a successor of the FAUD) end up as part of the IWA and with close ties to the CNT?

[Paulappaul]

Because it was still Syndicalist and was founded on Radical Principles?

[Widerstand]

Because it was still Syndicalist and was founded on Radical Principles?

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but didn't you say that the FAUD (and IWW) were closely tied to the Arbeiter Unionen movement, and didn't you also say these were not very syndacilst, and not tied to the syndicalist organizations of that time?

[Paulappaul]

The AAUD and FAUD arose at very similar movements in history under similar conditions in basically the same place. The Factory Councils which survived the war were split between organizing into the FAUD and forming their own Workers' Unions which united into the AAUD.

The FAUD was united on the principles of Syndicalism and was heavily inspired by the I.W.W. and the Radical Left in Germany.

The AAUD was formed alongside the KAPD and strove for Unitary Organization with KAPD.

In a broad scale, the AAUD and FAUD were a part of a movement towards Radical Unionism (or councilism if you like), but were separate from each other in principles and tactics.

[ContrarianLemming]

Council Communism, if I am reading the above posts correctly, is a form of libertarian Marxism which rejects party politics, regular unions and is typically accociated with Germany, correct?

[Paulappaul]

I wouldn't say Council Communism is something mutually exclusive to Germany, almost all Marxism rose out of Germany really. Furthermore, their is a huge Councilist tradition in Britain and Holland (Netherlands, whatever).

The majority of Councilists live in Pannekoek's tradition of refusing the notion of a Party. However historically there have been Councilist parties.

Yes Trade Unions and work within other bourgeois institutions is something generally refused by Left Communists in general, not just Council Communists.

And honestly I hate the term "Libertarian Marxism".

P.S. I like your User Title.

[Widerstand]

P.S. I like your User Title.

Free All Political Prisoners!

Abolish MUG penalty!

[ContrarianLemming]

I wouldn't say Council Communism is something mutually exclusive to Germany, almost all Marxism rose out of Germany really. Furthermore, their is a huge Councilist tradition in Britain and Holland (Netherlands, whatever).

The majority of Councilists live in Pannekoek's tradition of refusing the notion of a Party. However historically there have been Councilist parties.

Yes Trade Unions and work within other bourgeois institutions is something generally refused by Left Communists in general, not just Council Communists.

And honestly I hate the term "Libertarian Marxism".

P.S. I like your User Title.

I hate the term to but it does work to differ from Leninism. but isn't Left communism another specific ideology in "libertarian" marxism along with councilism and Luxenbourgism?

I have a tradition of making my names contradictory, my sig contains just some of my previous names :)

I don't think Marxism all came from Germany, sure Marx and Engels did, but their ideas were a result of a whole lot of work, particulary influenced by the French socialists and early British enlightenment thinkers and such, far leftism is a natural continuation of Englightenment thinking.

Though there has certainly been a high amount of Marxist thinkers from Germany, harder to think of a similar nation for anarchism.

[Widerstand]

I hate the term to but it does work to differ from Leninism. but isn't Left communism another specific ideology in "libertarian" marxism along with councilism and Luxenbourgism?

Luxemburgists are a branch of Left Communists.

But yeah, I'd say Left Communists are "libertarian marxists/communists/socialists", if only because I agree with both Left Comms and Anarchists on lotta positions.

[Paulappaul]

but isn't Left communism another specific ideology in "libertarian" marxism along with councilism and Luxenbourgism?Yeah along with the Johnson-Forester Tendency and Autonomist Marxism. Luxemburgism is hard to define as Libertarian Marxism, as Anarchists and Left Communists do a whime with glorifying her when in reality she can seem very dogmatic.


I agree with both Left Comms and Anarchists on lotta positions.

I'd say alot of the Radical Left do.

[ContrarianLemming]

Yeah along with the Johnson-Forester Tendency and Autonomist Marxism. Luxemburgism is hard to define as Libertarian Marxism, as Anarchists and Left Communists do a whime with glorifying her when in reality she can seem very dogmatic.

there was a recent thread about Luxembourgism where the OP outlined why Luxembour herself (and by extension her ideology) was/is in fact part of the Leninist camp of Marxism, and that she was very much a Lenin supporter and a party vangaurdist.

[Widerstand]

I'd say alot of the Radical Left do.

:/ I mean on the crucial points that most leftist sects go apeshit over, eg The Russian Revolution, the transitional period, organizing, etc.

[Paulappaul]

there was a recent thread about Luxembourgism where the OP outlined why Luxembour herself (and by extension her ideology) was/is in fact part of the Leninist camp of Marxism, and that she was very much a Lenin supporter and a party vangaurdist.

If you're talking about the "Myth of Luxemburgism" Zanthorus is right in his accusation of modern Luxemburgists as disingenuous to Rosa Luxemburg.

[Zanthorus]

I hate the term to but it does work to differ from Leninism.

I don't think the term does this at all. The currents usually slapped with the 'libertarian' tag are usually very heterogenous. Most anarchists will, if perhaps unknowingly, include everything from Bordigism to Autonism under the label.


but isn't Left communism another specific ideology in "libertarian" marxism along with councilism and Luxenbourgism?

Case in point. Left-Communism is not a universally anti-Leninist current. It was a historical movement which broke from the Communist International before Trotsky and the international Left Opposition. Because of this, there is a degree of overlap between what gets called 'Leninism' and what gets called 'Left-Communism'. This, for example, is a piece by a Left-Communist, Amadeo Bordiga:

Bolshevism defamed by the Anarchists (http://www.quinterna.org/lingue/english/historical_en/bolshevism_defamed.htm)


Luxemburgists are a branch of Left Communists.

Luxemburg died before the first congress of the Communist International. In Lenin's opening speech, he requested that the delegates rise and pay tribute to Rosa and Karl Liebknecht:


On behalf of the Central Committee of the Russian Communist Party I declare the First Congress of the Communist International open. First I would ask all present to rise in tribute to the finest representatives of the Third International: Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg(All rise).

So it would've been physically impossible for her to be a Left-Communist.

And it was a 'Luxemburgist', Paul Levi, who ousted the left-wing from the KPD.


But yeah, I'd say Left Communists are "libertarian marxists/communists/socialists", if only because I agree with both Left Comms and Anarchists on lotta positions.

Yes, and this is the point that has been continually made. 'Libertarian' Marxism doesn't exist besides a catch all term for anarchists to designate the Marxists they like.