Question for Dutch RevLeftists

[Great1917Revolution]

I wished to ask some Dutch RevLeftists about their opinion on GroenLinks and Femke Halsema? Although I preferred the former Pacifistisch Socialistische Partij, GroenLinks seem as the best political option in The Netherlands.

P.S. I hope this is not the wrong forum (I posted in English on the Dutch-language forum).

[Q]

I wished to ask some Dutch RevLeftists about their opinion on GroenLinks and Femke Halsema? Although I preferred the former Pacifistisch Socialistische Partij, GroenLinks seem as the best political option in The Netherlands.
I would best describe it as a "soft" neoliberal party, with a "good feel" factor for petty-bourgeois (being green, etc). It for example supports legislation to make it easier for bosses to fire workers, as that would be a good thing for the economy. Femke Halsema is explicitly calling herself "liberal" and is more on the moral (read: patronizing) left than anything.

This party is not on the left, despite her predecessors (not only the PSP, but also the CPN being very much on the left) and the name.


P.S. I hope this is not the wrong forum (I posted in English on the Dutch-language forum).
No problem :)

[Sasha]

dont confuse groenlinks with for example the german greens who actualy still keep some leftist ideas.
groenlinks (at least national, local they can be quite okay) is an hyper indivualistic liberal party who despise their own radical roots.
Femke Halsma actualy only quite recently joined the party, first she was working for the scientific buro of the centrist social-democratic party before she decided she rather be an big fish in an small pond instead of the oposite.
most leftist that bother to vote vote for the populist reformist socialist party, also shite but at least not afraid for its own base and still quite involved in topic based actvism.
when they come to an protest it is at least partly also because of the cause and not only to win votes.

[Honggweilo]

GroenLinks seem as the best political option in The Netherlands.

i'm sorry, i lol'd bigtime here :D

Groenlinks is as left nowadays as Al gore; anti-labour, pro-imperialism, petit-bourgeois, pro green-capitalism, position themselves a "social-liberal", no different really from the center left of the US democrats really. Of all the "post-communist" green experiments in the world, GreenLeft is one of the most fucked up parties around.

If you mentioned the ex-maoist, now left reformist SP, i could still mildly understand that statement you made. But GreenLeft is probably the worst party on the left, sprounting more reactionairy and individualistic notions then the new-labour PvdA sometimes. They are even concidering removing the "left" from their party name.


for example the german greens who actualy still keep some leftist ideas.

The german greens left? what?? after being co-responsible for neo-liberal reforms when in government? after supporting militaristic expantion of the wehrmacht? Their fierce hatred of Die Linke? The german greens are probably worse then GreenLeft!

A green party who still retain some leftist credentials is the Vansterpartiet in Sweden (who still call themselves socialists, and also came from the old swedish CP), or "Os Verdes" in Portugal (Which is in deep coalition with the Communist Party of Portugal, focussing only on green politics and retaining a communist social-economic program run by the PCP) not the german greens.

[CJCM]

I wished to ask some Dutch RevLeftists about their opinion on GroenLinks and Femke Halsema? Although I preferred the former Pacifistisch Socialistische Partij, GroenLinks seem as the best political option in The Netherlands.


I'm sorry but I also lol'd here.
Seeing how you bring up the PSP, I’d like to inform you that the Dutch Greens voted in favor of bombing the hell out of Yugoslavia with no apparent reason other than '' Nato must be right''

Although the party has 'leftist' roots, euro communism and parties set up by the secret service, it is completely detached from them now for several years.
In the latest austerity measures the party front woman Femke Halsema claimed that there '' wasn't enough reform on the labor market'' and '' we need to cut the government’s budget with over 18 billion euro's''. ( the current austerity measures being between the 16 - 18 billion euro's)

Myself and some others think that the Greens will merge with the other major social liberal party in the Netherlands: D66 (Democrats 66, the more or less sister party of the American Democrats), especially with the last election the parties had nearly exactly the same promises.

[Great1917Revolution]

While I oppose the methods NATO used in Yugoslavia (bombing of civilians, using cluster bombs etc) I would not criticize pro-intervention position, just as I am not against the position McKinney and American Greens had (anti-bombing). I would say intervention was needed because of mass human rights violations, massacres and pogroms of civilian population, which began to seem as real extermination and annihilation (examples: Suva Reka massacre, Podujevo massacre, Cuska massacre, Velika Kruša massacre, Izbica massacre, Drenica massacre, Gornje Obrinje massacre and so on).

Yes, I missed SP when describing Dutch political scene. However, IMO it is unlikely that GroenLinks will merge into D66. D66 has nothing to do with the left, it is a typical capitalist party which strongly supports the so-called "free market."

Well, Marcus Bakker was a Communist, but an active member of GroenLinks, so I'll say it is at least social democratic (but truly social democratic, not neoliberals like Zapatero and Segolene Royal) or democratic socialist. And, generally, when I look at most prominent party members Femke is among the few who were not previously in CPN or PSP. That is what influenced me to think about GroenLinks as the best political option in NL.

[Great1917Revolution]

And I have another two questions.

1. What is your opinion on Jacques de Kadt? Is the following true:"By 1952, Labour MP Jacques de Kadt - who still had condemned the Nationalists' rise to power in 1948 - thought that rapidly abolishing apartheid would lead to chaos in South Africa, from which only the communists stood to profit."

2. What is your opinion on the Flemish secessionist movement in Belgium?

[Sasha]

1. never heard of him

2. in our view the flemmish independence movement has always been dominated by the the extreme right (vlaamsblok/belang) so we always vehermently opposed, the new situation with the NVA is very new for us and most leftist, esp those in the northenparts of the netherlands like i am, dont really have an opinion on it.

[Pirate Utopian]

D66 has nothing to do with the left, it is a typical capitalist party which strongly supports the so-called "free market."
Same goes for GroenLinks.

[Honggweilo]

Well, Marcus Bakker was a Communist, but an active member of GroenLinks, so I'll say it is at least social democratic (but truly social democratic, not neoliberals like Zapatero and Segolene Royal) or democratic socialist.

Marcus Bakker (ex-communist mind you) left in 1999 when greenleft supported the NATO bombings, condeming the party until his death last december. There are no "communists" in GreenLeft, and the number of "democratic socialists" there is neglectable to none (all of them being in the SP). I can give you a tremendous list of reactionary policies and opinions GreenLeft has, which have been discussed here alot, like for example; a campaign urging youth to give up their membership of any trade-union, in coalition with D66 and the conservative liberals of the VVD, promoting cutting student financing, calling socialism and class-struggle old fashion, ect. All communists within the already largely dismantled CPN went to form the NCPN together with the VCN (communist purged just before the merger) in 1991, and the rest went completly over to the SP over the years. All and all, the GreenLeft has been a miscarriage since the beginning


IMO it is unlikely that GroenLinks will merge into D66. D66 has nothing to do with the left, it is a typical capitalist party which strongly supports the so-called "free market."

More likely then you think since alot of people are discussing the possibility already. The greenleft is as neo-liberal as D66, with only their hypocritical green-capitalist agenda as their main focus. We will probably see a "Green Liberal Democrat" party in the near future, and i say good riddance! since then people will stop equating the left with their shitty neo-liberal policy.

The positions you are taking on imperialist intervention however are very dodgy and prone to restriction on this forum, mind you.

[Great1917Revolution]

OK, it seems I was really wrong. I'll support SP from now.

Thank you for time,

R.

[An archist]

2. What is your opinion on the Flemish secessionist movement in Belgium?

I'm from Flanders and I don't particulary care about Flemish independance. If the country stays together or gets split apart, I don't have strong feelings either way.

The problem with the Flemish movement is that, like psycho said, it's heavily dominated by the far-right. Historically they collaborated with the nazi-occupiers and right now the main parties going for Flemish independance are:
Vlaams Belang: Far-right party with fascist roots
Lijst Dedecker: Neoliberal 'party for the rich'
N-VA: Right-wing conservative party with a clear anti-worker and pro-bosses agenda.

[Pirate Utopian]

OK, it seems I was really wrong. I'll support SP from now.

Thank you for time,

R.
What do you mean by support? Are you moving to the Netherlands?

[Great1917Revolution]

What do you mean by support? Are you moving to the Netherlands?

No, I am not (what a pity. I adore NL:( ). That is just like... support. Just as I supported Kucinich in US election 2008, although I was not US citizen (however, I like Brian Moore, Gloria La Riva and Mike Gravel, too:)).

[Das war einmal]

I'd like to add the following. The dedication to neo-liberalism of the GreenLeft party goes this far: they mocked the new formed far-right coalition by saying the announced social cuttings were 'soft as butter' and that it was a lost opportunity to further liberalize the economy.

[CJCM]

The Greens are farther to the right than the social democrats are to the left, we rest our case.

[Wanted Man]

GroenLinks seem as the best political option in The Netherlands.

I actually hear this position from quite a few leftist types within the labour and student union movements. Even the ones who are quite strongly against liberalism, even some who are beginning to ask themselves the "system question" (i.e. questioning capitalism itself), still support GroenLinks. Their main reason for this is the conservative tendencies within the SP; they like the more "freethinking" greens.

I suppose this is a matter of where to put the focus. I grudgingly vote SP in every election, but I don't think they have much of a progressive role, while GroenLinks are outright reactionary.

[Great1917Revolution]

OK, OK, I admit I was wrong. I am still of the opinion PSP is among the best political parties ever to exist in World history and I thought GroenLinks has the most similarties with it. Now, I prefer SP.

[Q]

OK, OK, I admit I was wrong. I am still of the opinion PSP is among the best political parties ever to exist in World history and I thought GroenLinks has the most similarties with it. Now, I prefer SP.

I honestly don't see what was so great about the PSP. To me it looked like a post-hippie formation that was essentially as middle-class as GroenLinks is today, be it more to the left of it as that was more fashionable in the day.

But I'm not that familiar with that party, so I could be wrong.

[Ravachol]

I honestly don't see what was so great about the PSP. To me it looked like a post-hippie formation that was essentially as middle-class as GroenLinks is today, be it more to the left of it as that was more fashionable in the day.

But I'm not that familiar with that party, so I could be wrong.

The PSP was a mish-mash of pacifist, reformist and other elements of the left wing of Capital. It prefigured GroenLinks perfectly.

[Sasha]

hey, my mum was an PSP member and activist... but then again she is also now for groenlinks, so i guess you are right :lol:

[Wanted Man]

I don't know. I know some solid GroenLinks people who are too young to have witnessed the PSP, but who say: "I'm really a PSP person." :p

[Great1917Revolution]

I honestly don't see what was so great about the PSP. To me it looked like a post-hippie formation that was essentially as middle-class as GroenLinks is today, be it more to the left of it as that was more fashionable in the day.

But I'm not that familiar with that party, so I could be wrong.

It promoted exactly what I consider socialism - free and classless society with peace, liberty and justice for everyone equally. Proletarian internationalist hippie-yippie movement which strongly opposed militarization of society, war and violence.

[Communist Pear]

It promoted exactly what I consider socialism - free and classless society with peace, liberty and justice for everyone equally. Proletarian internationalist hippie-yippie movement which strongly opposed militarization of society, war and violence.
http://www.embacubalebanon.com/images/che032.jpg

You should start listening to what people say.

The PSP was not a revolutionary party and was not working for a free and classless society.

[Honggweilo]

I don't know. I know some solid GroenLinks people who are too young to have witnessed the PSP, but who say: "I'm really a PSP person." :p

me too, sony is so rad

[Pirate Utopian]

Een PSP?!

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