I'm explaining the problems of capitalism.

[spice756]

I'm Working with a person explaning the problems with the US,Canada and UK and how we are cought in web of lies and propaganda and dumbing down of society of understanding political science.The school text books, media,TV ,talk radio ,magazines ,articles ,blogs ,news ,books ,colleges and universities full of propaganda and dumbing down of society of understanding political science.Very much pro-free market, pro-capitalism , anti-left and the only option is liberal and conservative no other party .

Tney do not cover the problems of capitalism and why communism got started and labor unions.They do not cover why the social programs got started and why they are under attack ,Why social democratic got started and why they are under attack.The real reason FDR got started and really what is communism and why it got started.

Who is in power and how they are chaping society , Where the real problem is big business control government and use text books, media,TV ,talk radio ,magazines ,articles ,blogs ,news ,books ,colleges and universities HAS A TOOL !!!

The person does not seem to believe me or understand the problems and how this works.And the person does not seem to understand why school text books , media ,TV ,talk radio , magazines , articles , blogs ,news , books , colleges and universities are nothing but garbage full of dumbing down of society of understanding political science and understanding of the above.

I need help on this topic.

[#FF0000]

Well don't tell him it's some nefarious conspiracy or something. People who have a lot of money have a ton of power and influence.

What exactly does he say?

[Dean]

The school text books, media,TV ,talk radio ,magazines ,articles ,blogs ,news ,books ,colleges and universities full of propaganda and dumbing down of society of understanding political science.Very much pro-free market, pro-capitalism , anti-left and the only option is liberal and conservative no other party .

....

I need help on this topic.

A good article which links to several mainstream news sites in reference to the propaganda campaigns of the US govt and corporate systems:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2010/10/corporate-media-has-no-clothes.html

Another article on the topic:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24441.html (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24441.html)

[Dean]

Also, you can try using this point: http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-capitalism-always-t143287/index.html (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../why-capitalism-always-t143287/index.html)

[spice756]

Also, you can try using this point:

That link does not work.

[Ele'ill]

Give him 'The Corporation' as a gift.

[Dean]

That link does not work.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=143287

[spice756]

Give him 'The Corporation' as a gift.


What the book called (( The Corporation: The Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power )) Paperback 240 pages

http://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Pathological-Pursuit-Profit-Power/dp/0743247469/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287099306&sr=1-9#_

[Klaatu]

Capitalists write/sell the school textbooks
Capitalists run/own the media (TV radio magazines, etc)
Colleges are run by capitalist money

A few, a very few, books and blogs (and sites such as this one) are trying to warn the masses of the coming doom which awaits us...
But not many are listening. Sometimes I feel like the guy in the film "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" who is trying to warn
the public of the danger at hand. Yet few if anyone listens.. They think he is crazy. :crying:

They think were are "subversive" and "dangerous." Folks, it is the present system which is dangerous! We are warning of this...

[The Idler]

If you're gonna persuade them, they probably only have a limited amount of patience and time for views opposite to their own. They won't have time to read 3+ books. So its important that the initial case that is made is the most persuasive.

If you want an accessible book give them Lies and the Lying Liars who tell them by Al Franken. If you want an academic book give him Media Control by Noam Chomsky. There are many other books but these are both quite well-known and populist. Manufacturing Consent is a film from 1992 which is quite good too.

[RGacky3]

Honestly convincing people that Capitalism is bad or having theoretical debates is much less usefull than actually organizing people to fight for issues that effect them right now, like fighting forclosures, evictions, organizing unions, collective bargening things like that are things that actually have an effect on peoples lives, the theoretical stuff can come later.

[Ele'ill]

I'm pretty good at discussing and convincing people because I leave things open ended- I admire Chomsky in some of his approaches where he's asked a fairly direct question and the expectations are that he's going to have a heavy bias flowing through his response but all he really has to do is state facts- nothing about his personal ideological stance- just facts

I had a situation working retail once- a long while ago- that ended with several corporate people flying in to deal with the situation that I was engaging in (educating and organizing) while at the work place. To my and their surprise the individuals that had grievances stepped forward and further articulated what I had said and elaborated on everything from capitalism to labor that influenced unjust company decision making regarding their employees. It was a very large retail store- a very succesful business- and it was made apparent that I was not the threat- the truth in the ideas I was sharing was the threat.

It ended up pretty ugly with legal and personal economic intimidation but it showed me at the time that a young person can help others. There were about 150 employees and about half of them sided with their rights and generally agreed with what I was saying- about half of that group was willing to take a stand- the other half of the store were cop out precinct slut wannabe bosses or never gonna be bosses but will be content as a servant. Varying ages all the way up into early 60's- for the entire demographic.

I was young and immature at the time and I regret a lot of what I did but I was still successful to an extent. I still talk to a lot of those people (the good ones) and there is a heavy dose of mutal respect for several years of agitating and exchanging ideas.

Having petty debates with coworkers can cause problems. Find out what is needed and simply list facts even if it means taking a more 'liberal' stance at first.

[spice756]

No no no .What I mean is how to explain how it works .

Do the businesses bribe them the media and government or put people in power ? Or is it ads ? Or the businesses saying we are going close down and move to other country.

Who gives the money to the colleges and universities and does the government run and control the colleges and universities or the private sector.

[Dean]

Do the businesses bribe them the media and government or put people in power ? Or is it ads ? Or the businesses saying we are going close down and move to other country.
I already linked to articles about this.

[RGacky3]

Do the businesses bribe them the media and government or put people in power ? Or is it ads ? Or the businesses saying we are going close down and move to other country.

Who gives the money to the colleges and universities and does the government run and control the colleges and universities or the private sector.

All of the above.

The colleges and universities are publically funded by are also very dependant on donations, however they are part of the system that is owned by the capitalist.

[Bud Struggle]

All of the above.

The colleges and universities are publically funded by are also very dependant on donations, however they are part of the system that is owned by the capitalist.

I'm actually in the process of looking at colleges right now for my little Sugar and Spice--and I have to say, colleges have vast amounts of academic freedoms. They do reflect the society they are in, but I don't think contributions from benefactors have much if any say as to what gets taught.

I was at Darthmouh the other day and they made it pretty clear that you can study whatever you want and believe whatever you want--no string attached. (FYI: Families making under $75,000 a year get free tuition and room and board!)

[RGacky3]

but I don't think contributions from benefactors have much if any say as to what gets taught.


I don't think they do either, however they are part of the framework, especially when it comes to the social sciences, most universities will really encourage academic freedom and innovation when it comes to science and engineering but when it comes to social sciences its a lot more party line. Its not nessesarily the donations directly, but its the framework in which they opperate (i.e. by and for the rich, in a Capitalist society).


I was at Darthmouh the other day and they made it pretty clear that you can study whatever you want and believe whatever you want--no string attached.

The fact that they would have to make that clear is pretty strange, you'd think it would be a given.

[Bud Struggle]

The fact that they would have to make that clear is pretty strange, you'd think it would be a given.

Well it was a sales pitch, but it is amazing the difference between a state University--even a very good one, and an Ivy school.

[Lyev]

I what really underlies this "dumbing down" is the Gramscian theory of hegemony. This kinda starts off with an oft-quoted passage from Marx here (but I think I'll post much more of it than is usually quoted):
The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas; hence of the relationships which make the one class the ruling one, therefore, the ideas of its dominance. The individuals composing the ruling class possess among other things consciousness, and therefore think. Insofar, therefore, as they rule as a class and determine the extent and compass of an epoch, it is self-evident that they do this in its whole range, hence among other things rule also as thinkers, as producers of ideas, and regulate the production and distribution of the ideas of their age: thus their ideas are the ruling ideas of the epoch. For instance, in an age and in a country where royal power, aristocracy, and bourgeoisie are contending for mastery and where, therefore, mastery is shared, the doctrine of the separation of powers proves to be the dominant idea and is expressed as an “eternal law.”

The division of labour, which we already saw above as one of the chief forces of history up till now, manifests itself also in the ruling class as the division of mental and material labour, so that inside this class one part appears as the thinkers of the class (its active, conceptive ideologists, who make the perfecting of the illusion of the class about itself their chief source of livelihood), while the others’ attitude to these ideas and illusions is more passive and receptive, because they are in reality the active members of this class and have less time to make up illusions and ideas about themselves. Within this class this cleavage can even develop into a certain opposition and hostility between the two parts, which, however, in the case of a practical collision, in which the class itself is endangered, automatically comes to nothing, in which case there also vanishes the semblance that the ruling ideas were not the ideas of the ruling class and had a power distinct from the power of this class. The existence of revolutionary ideas in a particular period presupposes the existence of a revolutionary class; about the premises for the latter sufficient has already been said above.

If now in considering the course of history we detach the ideas of the ruling class from the ruling class itself and attribute to them an independent existence, if we confine ourselves to saying that these or those ideas were dominant at a given time, without bothering ourselves about the conditions of production and the producers of these ideas, if we thus ignore the individuals and world conditions which are the source of the ideas, we can say, for instance, that during the time that the aristocracy was dominant, the concepts honour, loyalty, etc. were dominant, during the dominance of the bourgeoisie the concepts freedom, equality, etc. The ruling class itself on the whole imagines this to be so. This conception of history, which is common to all historians, particularly since the eighteenth century, will necessarily come up against the phenomenon that increasingly abstract ideas hold sway, i.e. ideas which increasingly take on the form of universality. For each new class which puts itself in the place of one ruling before it, is compelled, merely in order to carry through its aim, to represent its interest as the common interest of all the members of society, that is, expressed in ideal form: it has to give its ideas the form of universality, and represent them as the only rational, universally valid ones. The class making a revolution appears from the very start, if only because it is opposed to a class, not as a class but as the representative of the whole of society; it appears as the whole mass of society confronting the one ruling class.(emphasis mine)
The two parts right at the end ("For each new class..." and "but as the...") are especially important. Not only, because they are the "ruling material force" the ruling puts their corresponding ideology at the forefront of society -- when you say "pro-free market, pro-capitalism , anti-left and the only option is liberal and conservative no other party" -- but they become the only ideas that are seemingly truly representative of the whole of society. This really is a hegemony; a dominating monopoly. This is why I think the call, from the likes of BenSeattle, for an independent proletarian media outlet. The way a monopoly is gained over ideas, but only as an outgrowth from material conditions first, is kinda interesting when we see it in an actual capitalist economy too.