Venezuela and homosexuality

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Lately during these last few months I've discovered quite a bit about this country but still don't know how their treat their queer population.They look like they're on the right track with all the popularity and nationalizations but their treatment of queers is something I'd like to know about.Do they have gay marriage yet? Other info regarding their treatment is welcome.

[Nolan]

I've been told the attitude of the police especially isn't pretty.

[Volcanicity]

Venezuela has an annual Gay Pride Festival but Civil partnerships are as far as I know illegal.There was a bill that Chavez was supporting that looked for more rights for the LGBT community but I dont know whether it was passed or not.Also Homosexuals are able to join the military.

[neosyndic]

x

[Queercommie Girl]

Officially, Chavez supports both gay and trans rights. But in reality, there is still a long way to go. Venezuela still has a relatively low level of social development.

There is a difference between what the central government says and how much it's really implemented in practice. In Europe today, LGBT people have virtually complete legal and institutional equality, it doesn't mean LGBT discrimination doesn't exist in European Union countries in reality.

Every country in the world today is against racism on paper, but you can be sure that racism still exists in most parts of the world, if not every part.

[Ermo Kruus]

Chavéz has tried to push for more LGBT rights for years, and the country has made progress. The strong opposition from the Catholic church have made it hard to make these bills go through, but they're making progress. There is also sadly, as mentioned already, a lot of problems with homophobia in the Venezuelan society.

[Soseloshvili]

Here's a link on the subject:

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1512

Hope this helps. I have read some news post which claim that police in Venezuela beat homosexuals on the streets, but sources aren't usually disclosed so it's probably mainly BS. I hear the same things about Cuba, but Cuba is actually very progressive on Gay Rights and there have been no reported cases of cops beating LGBT people on the streets.

And before anyone says "must be easy for you to say, not being LGBT"... which I seem to get everytime I mention gay rights on this site... I am a gay man.

[Queercommie Girl]

Here's a link on the subject:

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1512

Hope this helps. I have read some news post which claim that police in Venezuela beat homosexuals on the streets, but sources aren't usually disclosed so it's probably mainly BS. I hear the same things about Cuba, but Cuba is actually very progressive on Gay Rights and there have been no reported cases of cops beating LGBT people on the streets.

And before anyone says "must be easy for you to say, not being LGBT"... which I seem to get everytime I mention gay rights on this site... I am a gay man.

But that could well happen while the central government of Venezuela still has a progressive policy on LGBT rights, because as I said legal equality and actual equality are two different things.

In some states of the US, there is also equality for LGBT people legally, but American police still beat up queers on the streets sometimes even today.

[neosyndic]

x

[Soseloshvili]

But that could well happen while the central government of Venezuela still has a progressive policy on LGBT rights, because as I said legal equality and actual equality are two different things.

In some states of the US, there is also equality for LGBT people legally, but American police still beat up queers on the streets sometimes even today.

I the U.S.A., a sort of "oral law" exists on the treatment of LGBT people. I know, I lived down south for some time. That and that in many states it's institutionalized, and in every state the Churches (which wield much more force down there than they do up here in Canada) are anti-LGBT. In Venezuela there are open attempts to suppress the power of the Church, so you'd think the institutions would be less influenced by homophobia.

[Queercommie Girl]

I the U.S.A., a sort of "oral law" exists on the treatment of LGBT people. I know, I lived down south for some time. That and that in many states it's institutionalized, and in every state the Churches (which wield much more force down there than they do up here in Canada) are anti-LGBT. In Venezuela there are open attempts to suppress the power of the Church, so you'd think the institutions would be less influenced by homophobia.

That's true, but it's not just the churches that are anti-LGBT though, sometimes secular people can be anti-LGBT too.

However, I think probably more police beat up LGBT people in the US than in Venezuela, even though US is economically a much more developed place.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

And before anyone says "must be easy for you to say, not being LGBT"... which I seem to get everytime I mention gay rights on this site... I am a gay man.

Well congrats, you want a round of applause? Why do so many cisgendered gay men think that saying that can justify anything they say?

[Sosa]

Recently there has been a rise in suicides among gay teens who are bullied, here in the U.S.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Recently there has been a rise in suicides among gay teens who are bullied, here in the U.S.

The suicide rate amongst LGBT youth has always been way higher than the rest of the population. I was almost a casualty of that.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The suicide rate amongst LGBT youth has always been way higher than the rest of the population. I was almost a casualty of that.

I agree with you, it is horrendous. As a lgbt person I was wondering what your thoughts might be on changing this situation? What do you think the left should work on to make things easier for lgbt youth?

Also, as a Spanish speaking person, have you thought of Venezuela or Cuba as places which may be more hospitable for lgbt people?

[Patchd]

Why do we judge how well a society 'treats its queers' by whether the state permits gay marriage/civil partnerships or not? British society permits civil partnerships, but homophobia is still common, and unless I'm mistaken, I was told that it was on the rise.

EDIT: Homophobic attacks and bullying being on the rise that is.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I agree with you, it is horrendous. As a lgbt person I was wondering what your thoughts might be on changing this situation? What do you think the left should work on to make things easier for lgbt youth?
I don't really consider it a left/right issue. It is a human issue. As for how to change it, I wish I knew. I think the answer may have something to do with creating more support resources for LGBT youth.



Also, as a Spanish speaking person, have you thought of Venezuela or Cuba as places which may be more hospitable for lgbt people?
I can't speak for Venezuela or Cuba, seeing as I am Chicana, not Cuban or Venezuelan.

[Patchd]

I don't really consider it a left/right issue. It is a human issue. As for how to change it, I wish I knew. I think the answer may have something to do with creating more support resources for LGBT youth.

Hey, this might interest you; http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/oct/26/gay-history-lessons-bullying-schools
Obviously, it doesn't always have positive consequences, but it seems hopeful.

"A north London school which has developed lessons on gay historical figures who suffered persecution claims to have succeeded in "more or less eliminating homophobic bullying" in its classrooms and playgrounds over the last five years."

"She believes one problem is that teachers dread taking lessons on homosexuality. "Many are scared of celebrating LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] as they are worried pupils will judge them and will assume they are gay. In fact, to them, we are just a blob giving them information. Over the five years, I've only had three pupils ask whether I am gay.""

[Revy]

Eliminating homophobia is not as simple as gaining legal rights, but gaining legal equality does help establish social equality. Ultimately it is a cultural change that is needed.

I'm no big fan of marriage and I don't think most gay people really are either. We just want to be equal citizens. How can things change otherwise. Interracial marriage becoming legal in the '60s probably helped a lot to increase acceptance of those relationships.

[Reznov]

That's true, but it's not just the churches that are anti-LGBT though, sometimes secular people can be anti-LGBT too.

However, I think probably more police beat up LGBT people in the US than in Venezuela, even though US is economically a much more developed place.

You think? Don't you live in the U.K.?

Have you ever tried searching up some statistics?

[Soseloshvili]

Well congrats, you want a round of applause? Why do so many cisgendered gay men think that saying that can justify anything they say?

I merely clarified because it seems like every time I take a stand on an issue about LGBT people someone has to comment saying "must be easy to say, not being LGBT"

Now I state it, and someone criticizes me for using my sexuality as a justification. I just can't win, it seems. :rolleyes:

[Raúl Duke]

You think? Don't you live in the U.K.?

She lives in the US to my knowledge.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I merely clarified because it seems like every time I take a stand on an issue about LGBT people someone has to comment saying "must be easy to say, not being LGBT"
What does your sexuality and gender mean on this? It's like I happen to be transsexual and bi, so what?

[Soseloshvili]

What does your sexuality and gender mean on this? It's like I happen to be transsexual and bi, so what?

Seriously? You responded to that? Well fine, I'll make myself clear.

I said that not to flaunt anything but because I said something which may come of as condoning homophobia, in the form of saying oppression of LGBT people in Venezuela and Cuba is probably minimal. People seem to take this as some straight guy who has a mild hatred for LGBT people.

Whenever I make a comment along those lines, some guy always has to comment telling me that it must be easy for me to say, not being LGBT. So I put a little anecdote saying that I actually am LGBT to prevent that little comment

Instead, for saying it, I get this, which I am now explaining to you for the second time.

Are we done now? Is that clear enough for you? Jeez. I don't care, I wasn't trying to flaunt anything, I don't care if you're bi or straight or gay or transgendered, it doesn't matter.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Seriously? You responded to that? Well fine, I'll make myself clear.
Calm down, stop being defensive, you are not under attack.


I said that not to flaunt anything but because I said something which may come of as condoning homophobia, in the form of saying oppression of LGBT people in Venezuela and Cuba is probably minimal. People seem to take this as some straight guy who has a mild hatred for LGBT people.
I didn't say either way on that. Cuba has come a long way since Raul Castro took his brother's place. Fidel, on the other hand, was far from LGBT friendly.


Whenever I make a comment along those lines, some guy always has to comment telling me that it must be easy for me to say, not being LGBT. So I put a little anecdote saying that I actually am LGBT to prevent that little comment
Well this time you were "told off" by a woman who wasn't actually trying to tell you off. Fact is I was pointing out that your sexuality is irrelevant.

Salvador Dali had a gay love affair with Federico Garcia Lorca. Does that take away the fact that he sided with the very fascists that killed Lorca?

I just think the point of your sexuality is rather useless either way, if what you're saying is valid it can stand on it's own with out that little point.


Instead, for saying it, I get this, which I am now explaining to you for the second time.
You assume things as more harsh than they are. I was just pointing out that it was not of any relevance what your sexuality is.


Are we done now? Is that clear enough for you? Jeez. I don't care, I wasn't trying to flaunt anything, I don't care if you're bi or straight or lesbian or transgendered, it doesn't matter.

It is good that you don't care, because you proved my point that it doesn't matter. Btw, I corrected what you said since I am female identified, you're welcome.

[Sentinel]

Cuba has come a long way since Raul Castro took his brother's place. Fidel, on the other hand, was far from LGBT friendly.


I was under he impression that the whole bunch of them (Fidel, Raul, Che) were ignorant to queer rights during the revolution, and that this attitude continued until the 80's or the 90's when Fidel changed his mind and 'realised' that 'there was a problem'. In other words, I thought Raul is continuing the later policy of Fidel.

I'm not sure though, so please correct me if you know that I'm wrong.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I was under he impression that the whole bunch of them (Fidel, Raul, Che) were ignorant to queer rights during the revolution, and that this attitude continued until the 80's or the 90's when Fidel changed his mind and 'realised' that 'there was a problem'. In other words, I thought Raul is continuing the later policy of Fidel.

I'm not sure though, so please correct me if you know that I'm wrong.

You may be right, but it was Raul who put transition (including bottom surgery) on the nationalized healthcare plan. That may not mean much to the majority of the population but it's a lifesaver for some of us.

[Soseloshvili]

Raul isn't the more progressive of the Castro brothers, he is just continuing what Castro did. Yes, in the very beginning, Castro was homophobic. That was why homosexuals were among those sent to the Military Labour Camps after the end of the revolution, but you have to realize these were open for a very short time, they actually closed after Fidel himself listened to some complaining about the mistreatment there and went and experienced the labour camps incognito, the treatment at which he was obviously appalled by.

Need we forget that under Fidel Cuba became the first country in the world to make it a criminal offense to be discriminated against when at work on grounds of sexual orientation. Not to mention that Fidel decriminalized homosexuality nationally at a time when only one of the states had done so (Illinois).

[Rafiq]

Recently there has been a rise in suicides among gay teens who are bullied, here in the U.S.

The Media is responsible for Anti-Gay attitudes. They portray almost all gays as perverts and use them almost always in "Comedy" style scenes.


I have never heard of a movie, that didn't portray a Gay person as normal, and didn't use him for humorous reasons.

[Sentinel]

Raul isn't the more progressive of the Castro brothers, he is just continuing what Castro did.


This is a rather interesting subject, actually. Raul was already a member of the Partido Socialista Popular, the pre-revolution communist party of Cuba, while Fidel had more of a left-nationalist position to begin with.

Thus Raul was seen as the more radical of them for a long time -- economically speaking. Fidel used to threaten the US: 'kill me and you'll get Raul next.' But whether that extended to their social politics as well, I have no idea.

At the same time, however, we have to remember that Fidel is a master tactician before everything, which is why the Cuban revolution succeeded where others failed. In to the last he hid the true, socialist nature of the revolution to prevent an imperialist intervention.

It's therefore very hard to know how much more radical Raul actually was initially, or later for that. And as said, while progressive economic and social politics usually go hand in hand, it isn't necessarily so in every case.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Raul isn't the more progressive of the Castro brothers, he is just continuing what Castro did. Yes, in the very beginning, Castro was homophobic. That was why homosexuals were among those sent to the Military Labour Camps after the end of the revolution, but you have to realize these were open for a very short time, they actually closed after Fidel himself listened to some complaining about the mistreatment there and went and experienced the labour camps incognito, the treatment at which he was obviously appalled by.

Need we forget that under Fidel Cuba became the first country in the world to make it a criminal offense to be discriminated against when at work on grounds of sexual orientation. Not to mention that Fidel decriminalized homosexuality nationally at a time when only one of the states had done so (Illinois).

So you're one of those "let's cover sexual orientation but not gender identity" types, eh?

Raul has done a LOT more in regards to gender identity than Fidel. But then again, I don't have cisgender privelege.

[Sentinel]

I just did some research. It seems that if we have to select one person, the real hero of the queer people of Cuba would be Mariela Castro Espin, daughter of Raul Castro and Vilma Espin and director of the National Center for Sex Education in Cuba.

Apparently she has been campaigning and pushing for change on this front for a long time. Perhaps the fact the she is Raul's, and not Fidel's, daughter points towards that EX is right.

In any case, what we have to remember here is that the Castros actually aren't the dictators they are described as in the capitalist countries. Cuba has a parliament as well, which so far for instance apparently has voted down motions to legalise gay marriage, or alternatives such as civil partnership.

Due to the still continuing influence of the catholic church there is still a huge machismo problem amongst the population of Cuba (as there is in the entire region) which must be first be successfully fought by the means of education before total equality is possible.

Edit: About gay marriage in Cuba: according to Carlos Sanchez, latin american queer rights activist, in Cuba married and unmarried couples have equal rights before the law, which is why the local activists have chosen not to push for marriage rights.

Also, perhaps this thread should be split or renamed, btw, as it was only about Venezuela to begin with?

[Soseloshvili]

So you're one of those "let's cover sexual orientation but not gender identity" types, eh?

Raul has done a LOT more in regards to gender identity than Fidel. But then again, I don't have cisgender privelege.

For someone who is quick to respond asking me if I want a medal for declaring myself gay, you're eager to throw out the transgender label in what I guess is supposed to be some sort of justification.

I wasn't covering gender issues because I assumed most people would consider that included when I use the word LGBT, which includes transgendered people. When I said that discrimination in the work place on the grounds of sexual orientation, that included gender identity. The actual law banned discrimination on any grounds back in the 70s.

Raul is a great leader and has done lots in backing up Mariela and her organization CENESEX (Centro Nacional para la Educación Sexuel, or the National Centre for Sex Education), but let's not forget that really he's just continuing the great work for LGBT Cubans that Fidel did.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

For someone who is quick to respond asking me if I want a medal for declaring myself gay, you're eager to throw out the transgender label in what I guess is supposed to be some sort of justification.
Gender identity says nothing about who I'm attracted to. It's how one identifies on the gender spectrum. I identify as a woman, I said nothing about my sexual orientation. Whether I identify as a straight woman or a lesbian or (as my case is) omnisexual would be the sexuality.


I wasn't covering gender issues because I assumed most people would consider that included when I use the word LGBT, which includes transgendered people. When I said that discrimination in the work place on the grounds of sexual orientation, that included gender identity. The actual law banned discrimination on any grounds back in the 70s.
Which law are you referring to? Most anti-discrimination laws throughout global history that were for sexual orientation didn't cover gender identity and presentation.


Raul is a great leader and has done lots in backing up Mariela and her organization CENESEX (Centro Nacional para la Educación Sexuel, or the National Centre for Sex Education), but let's not forget that really he's just continuing the great work for LGBT Cubans that Fidel did.
Well, at least we agree on Raul...

[Soseloshvili]

Gender identity says nothing about who I'm attracted to. It's how one identifies on the gender spectrum. I identify as a woman, I said nothing about my sexual orientation. Whether I identify as a straight woman or a lesbian or (as my case is) omnisexual would be the sexuality.

It doesn't matter whether it's gender identity or sexual orientation, my point was that you just did what you just criticized me for doing - throwing out a label as a justification. That, my friend, is hypocrisy.

And you don't need to educate me on the difference between gender and sexuality, I teach people about that difference. I lead a LGBT rights group, I have held workshops and have spoken with many Transgender leaders on this key difference.


Which law are you referring to? Most anti-discrimination laws throughout global history that were for sexual orientation didn't cover gender identity and presentation.

Like I said, the law banned discrimination on any grounds, though the case was originally put before the courts by a couple of gay teachers. That includes Transgender people.


Well, at least we agree on Raul...

Don't tell me you're one of those people who bashes Fidel as a homophobe (or transphobe, if you want to be specific). If so, I recommend you seriously brush up on your Cuban revolutionary history.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

It doesn't matter whether it's gender identity or sexual orientation, my point was that you just did what you just criticized me for doing - throwing out a label as a justification. That, my friend, is hypocrisy.
I am a hypocrite. It doesn't bother me. Also, I ain't your friend ese.


And you don't need to educate me on the difference between gender and sexuality, I teach people about that difference. I lead a LGBT rights group, I have held workshops and have spoken with many Transgender leaders on this key difference.
Well that's good. Btw, I more so just consider myself a woman.



Like I said, the law banned discrimination on any grounds, though the case was originally put before the courts by a couple of gay teachers. That includes Transgender people.
Well that's good.



Don't tell me you're one of those people who bashes Fidel as a homophobe (or transphobe, if you want to be specific). If so, I recommend you seriously brush up on your Cuban revolutionary history.
No, Raul just seems like a kool guy to me. Fidel is talked about soooo much that I'm sick of hearing about him.

[Soseloshvili]

I am a hypocrite. It doesn't bother me. Also, I ain't your friend ese.

Well, at least you're honest


Well that's good. Btw, I more so just consider myself a woman.

Duly noted.


No, Raul just seems like a kool guy to me. Fidel is talked about soooo much that I'm sick of hearing about him.

I actually agree. Raul was Communist long before Fidel, long before the revolution actually. He was the leader of the army for decades, and was actually a huge player in Cuba's politics (especially when it came to links with the Soviet camp). He's completely overlooked.

[Queercommie Girl]

You think? Don't you live in the U.K.?

Have you ever tried searching up some statistics?

I live in the UK.

I've read cases of police beating up queer people in the US, but I've only heard of rumours of the same kind of thing in Venezuela.

I don't see why you'd want to apologise for the US though, considering it is one of the most reactionary capitalist and imperialist states on the planet at the moment.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Well, at least you're honest
I usually am. Although, I snap a lot and am *****y and irritable often, hence I get along with a very few. I'm such an elitist.



Duly noted.
Gracias



I actually agree. Raul was Communist long before Fidel, long before the revolution actually. He was the leader of the army for decades, and was actually a huge player in Cuba's politics (especially when it came to links with the Soviet camp). He's completely overlooked.
I tend to like the underrated one more as I haven't gotten bored of hearing his name.

[People's War]

It's good to see there is support for LGBT rights in Venezuela - I know a lot of countries in the area (even Cuba) are pretty homophobic.

[Queercommie Girl]

It's good to see there is support for LGBT rights in Venezuela - I know a lot of countries in the area (even Cuba) are pretty homophobic.

Cuba is like Venezuela, officially there is support for LGBT rights, but in reality there is still quite a lot of homophobia within society.

[Il Medico]

Cuba is like Venezuela, officially there is support for LGBT rights, but in reality there is still quite a lot of homophobia within society.
From what my best friend tells me, this is true. He says there are a lot of homophobic attitudes there, but it is not much worse than in say the rural south (which is pretty bad to begin with). But then again, he and pretty much his entire family (at least the ones I've met) are from or live in Caracas, so i don't know if that's true for other parts of the country.

As for statistics on gay youths, at least here in the US, these are some fairly unsettling ones we were handed at a GSA meeting:


SUICIDE & DEPRESSION
{Note: Numbers appearing in parentheses "( )" at the end of each statement denote the source of that information. All sources are listed at the bottom of this page.]


Suicide is the leading cause of death among gay and lesbian youth. (1)
Gay and lesbian youth are 2 to 6 times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexual youth. (1)
Over 30% of all reported teen suicides each year are committed by gay and lesbian youth. (1)

REJECTION


50% of all gay and lesbian youth report that their parents reject them due to their sexual orientation. (2)
26% of gay and lesbian youth are forced to leave home because of conflicts over their sexual orientation. (1)
In a study of 194 gay and lesbian youth, 25% were verbally abused by parents, and nearly 10% dealt with threatened or actual violence. (12)

HOMELESSNESS


Approximately 40% of homeless youth are identified as gay, lesbian or bisexual. (3)
Service providers estimate that gay, lesbian and bisexual youth make up 20-40% of homeless youth in urban areas. (18)
In a study of male teenagers self-described as gay or bisexual, 27% moved away from home because of conflict with family members over sexual orientation. Almost half had run away from home at least once. (2)

SUBSTANCE ABUSE


Gays and lesbians are at much higher risk than the heterosexual population for alcohol and drug abuse. (1)
Approximately 30% of both the lesbian and gay male populations have problems with alcohol. (1)
Substantially higher proportions of homosexual people use alcohol, marijuana or cocaine than is the case in the general population. (6)
55% of gay men have had a substance abuse problem sometime in their life. (10)

HIGH DROP OUT RATES


Approximately 28% of gay and lesbian youth drop out of high school because of discomfort (due to verbal and physical abuse) in the school environment. (2)
Gay and lesbian youth’s discomfort stems from fear of name calling and physical harm. (4)
Gay and lesbian youth are at greater risk for school failure than heterosexual children. Academic failure, lack of student involvement and low commitment to school are profound for gay and lesbian youth because schools are neither safe, healthy nor productive places for them to learn. (1)

VERBAL & PHYSICAL ASSAULTS


Teenage students (gay AND straight) say the worst harassment in school is being called ‘gay’. (11)
In a national survey, youth (gay AND straight) described being called “lesbian” or “gay” as the most deeply upsetting form of sexual harassment they experienced. (14)
Gay students hear anti-gay slurs as often as 26 times each day; faculty intervention occurs in only about 3% of those cases. (9)
In Seattle, 34% of students who described themselves as gay, lesbian or bisexual reported being the target of anti-gay harassment or violence at school or on the way to or from school, compared to 6% of heterosexual students. (16)
Gay and lesbian youth live, work and attempt to learn in constant fear of physical harm at school. (4)
27% of gay and lesbian youth have been physically hurt by another student. (12)
In 53 schools in Washington State, 77 incidents of anti-gay harassment and violence have been reported in the past 3 years, with 34 of these incidents (44%) serious enough to warrant possible criminal allegations. (15)

LACK OF SUPPORT


Few administrators discipline students for name-calling and harassment of gay and lesbian students. (5)
Teachers may wish to stop harassment and anti-gay comments, but few have had any specific training which would teach them to intervene effectively and many fear reprisals without the explicit support and backing of their administration. (5)
In Michigan, 28% of school personnel surveyed determined their school environment to be emotionally unsafe for gay and lesbian youth. (17)
Over 50% of national youth servicing organizations report that they do not have services or resources in place to educate youth on sexual orientation or to support gay and lesbian youth. (13)

LACK OF ROLE MODELS


There are very few openly gay staff members or teachers in schools. (5)
The presence of openly gay and/or lesbian staff members is a crucial component of any school program seeking to reduce bigotry and provide support for gay and lesbian students. (5)

VICTIMS OF CRIME


Gays and lesbians are the most frequent victims of hate crimes. (7)
Gays and lesbians are at least 7 times more likely to be crime victims than heterosexual people. (7)
At least 75% of crimes against gays and lesbians are not reported to anyone. (8)
In a study of 5 metropolitan areas (including Boston, Chicago, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New York City, and San Francisco), there were 1,833 [reported) incidents of anti-gay and anti-lesbian crimes, which was a 31% increase over the previous year. (8)

WHY SHOULD THIS ISSUE BE TALKED ABOUT IN SCHOOLS?


In a typical class of 30 students, 8 students (27% of the class) will be directly affected by homosexuality of self, one or more siblings, or one or both parents. (10)

[Queercommie Girl]

As for statistics on gay youths, at least here in the US, these are some fairly unsettling ones we were handed at a GSA meeting:
[/SIZE]
[/LIST]


These figures just make me want to cry. :crying:

But we must not cry, we must remain strong and carry on the struggle!

:marx::engles::che::trotski::hammersickle:

Long Live the socialist LGBT movement!!!

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

These figures just make me want to cry. :crying:
Yeah, me too.

But we must not cry, we must remain strong and carry on the struggle!
To let the tears flow is a healthy expression of emotion.

:marx::engles::che::trotski::hammersickle:

Long Live the socialist LGBT movement!!!
I prefer Tranarchy!

[Soseloshvili]

I prefer Tranarchy!

Anarchism is a form of Socialism. You can't "prefer" Anarchism over Socialism, that's like saying I prefer egg roles over Chinese food. (Unless you're an Individualist or Post-left Anarchist, in which case you really don't belong on this site, because that would make you a Capitalist).

And you can't just add random adjectives to Anarchism. I mean, you can be an Anarchist and advocate for Transgender rights, you sure can. But Tranarchism, that just doesn't make sense.

You're basically mixing up a struggle and an ideology. Transgender rights aren't an ideology, therefore you can't base an ideology off of it. It certainly is an important struggle, but you can't base an ideology off of just one struggle. It's like saying, "I'm an Anarcho-vegan!". There's nothing Anarchist about being vegan. Same goes for "Tranarchism". There's nothing Anarchist about being transgender.

[Il Medico]

Anarchism is a form of Socialism. You can't "prefer" Anarchism over Socialism, that's like saying I prefer egg roles over Chinese food. (Unless you're an Individualist or Post-left Anarchist, in which case you really don't belong on this site, because that would make you a Capitalist).

And you can't just add random adjectives to Anarchism. I mean, you can be an Anarchist and advocate for Transgender rights, you sure can. But Tranarchism, that just doesn't make sense.

You're basically mixing up a struggle and an ideology. Transgender rights aren't an ideology, therefore you can't base an ideology off of it. It certainly is an important struggle, but you can't base an ideology off of just one struggle. It's like saying, "I'm an Anarcho-vegan!". There's nothing Anarchist about being vegan. Same goes for "Tranarchism". There's nothing Anarchist about being transgender.
You missed it mate, just whoosh.

:lol:<---It


:confused: <---you
.^
..l
.^

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Anarchism is a form of Socialism. You can't "prefer" Anarchism over Socialism, that's like saying I prefer egg roles over Chinese food. (Unless you're an Individualist or Post-left Anarchist, in which case you really don't belong on this site, because that would make you a Capitalist).

And you can't just add random adjectives to Anarchism. I mean, you can be an Anarchist and advocate for Transgender rights, you sure can. But Tranarchism, that just doesn't make sense.

You're basically mixing up a struggle and an ideology. Transgender rights aren't an ideology, therefore you can't base an ideology off of it. It certainly is an important struggle, but you can't base an ideology off of just one struggle. It's like saying, "I'm an Anarcho-vegan!". There's nothing Anarchist about being vegan. Same goes for "Tranarchism". There's nothing Anarchist about being transgender.
You might want to see a psych doctor to see what you need to do about your unhealthy lack of humor. Me being a smart ass is as me as being a crazy ***** is. Keep in mind, I'm only quasi-political.

Here is me ----> :laugh::blackA:

Here is you----> :blink::hammersickle:

Don't take life so seriously, you'll just choke the meaning out until it is bland, dry and boring.

[Soseloshvili]

You might want to see a psych doctor to see what you need to do about your unhealthy lack of humor. Me being a smart ass is as me as being a crazy ***** is. Keep in mind, I'm only quasi-political.

Here is me ----> :laugh::blackA:

Here is you----> :blink::hammersickle:

Don't take life so seriously, you'll just choke the meaning out until it is bland, dry and boring.

With you, it seems to be impossible to tell. Of all the people on the internet, you're probably the blatantly random and unpredictable person on this website.

And like you said, being in your own words "quasi-political", which means you could have been one of those idiots who says something like that. I've met people who claim to be "anarchoqueer" or "anarchovegan", and it makes me want to throw them into a car cruncher.

Nah, more like here is me --> :huh::star:

Because I don't fall strictly under the category of Communist. I have inclinations towards many ideologies on the far left. I just call myself a Communist because I work with the Communist party

[WeAreReborn]

And like you said, being in your own words "quasi-political", which means you could have been one of those idiots who says something like that. I've met people who claim to be "anarchoqueer" or "anarchovegan", and it makes me want to throw them into a car cruncher.

Why? If you ask them to go into more depth they would probably call themselves Socialists or Communists but why are you so unaccepting of their views? Who cares if they identity themselves more as a vegan or as a "queer" then a Commie? It doesn't really matter. You being so quick to attack or judge is quite strange, or at least should be, for the left. Though I am sure I'm looking too much into this, it still surprises me. And sure you can be Anarchist and not vegan and vice versa, but it seems since Anarchists are concerned with human rights they have a higher chance to care about animals as well.

[Soseloshvili]

Why? If you ask them to go into more depth they would probably call themselves Socialists or Communists but why are you so unaccepting of their views? Who cares if they identity themselves more as a vegan or as a "queer" then a Commie? It doesn't really matter. You being so quick to attack or judge is quite strange, or at least should be, for the left. Though I am sure I'm looking too much into this, it still surprises me. And sure you can be Anarchist and not vegan and vice versa, but it seems since Anarchists are concerned with human rights they have a higher chance to care about animals as well.

Because, people who say those things are typically people who have no conception of left wing politics. Almost all people I've met are teenagers who just do it to be rebellious, who wouldn't know the first thing about actual left wing politics or even current political issues.

I guess it's more "fun" to wave a rainbow flag, wear a Peta pin and listen to punk music than to actually read Chomsky, Zinn, or watch Michael Moore (you know, actually learn something).

That being said, I have met some people (mainly people who work with the group Bashback) who actually know what they're talking and identify with groups that are "anarchoqueer". It's just the vast majority that this applies too.

Basically what I'm directing my hatred at are those Social Democrat, angry teenage "Anarchists" who really don't know what they're talking about. I'm pretty sure everyone has felt that annoyance before.

[Queercommie Girl]

Because, people who say those things are typically people who have no conception of left wing politics. Almost all people I've met are teenagers who just do it to be rebellious, who wouldn't know the first thing about actual left wing politics or even current political issues.


There is nothing intrinsically wrong with children being rebellious sometimes. That's indeed one of the achievements of the Chinese May 4th movement in 1919: it undermined the millennia-old Confucian idea that children must always obey their parents. Marxists should under no circumstances side with the Confucians on this matter.

Sometimes it is indeed a good thing to be a rebellious youth. As the Chinese Marxist Chen Duxiu said: "Every revolutionary activity is fundamentally a form of rebellious activity."

Many people who first become active in socialist politics and activism are indeed teenagers. Rather than just reject them as a group like this, you should try to draw them to socialist ideas. As Lenin said, "patiently explain".



I guess it's more "fun" to wave a rainbow flag, wear a Peta pin and listen to punk music than to actually read Chomsky, Zinn, or watch Michael Moore (you know, actually learn something).
That's a rather ignorant representation of the LGBT movement in general. Are you suggesting that LGBT activists only conduct their activities for fun and that LGBT people in general don't face very serious discrimination and oppression almost everywhere, and that the LGBT movement as a whole is not a serious movement?

Have you ever read any serious socialist books on the LGBT movement and activism, I wonder? Or are you aware of serious LGBT movements in recent years in the US and in other countries? Do you know about the history of the modern LGBT movement from the late 19th century to today, and how it is related to socialist movements in general? Probably not.



That being said, I have met some people (mainly people who work with the group Bashback) who actually know what they're talking and identify with groups that are "anarchoqueer". It's just the vast majority that this applies too.
Bashback is IMO an ultra-leftist group that will not be able to have any major impact in the world at large due to their refusal to adopt the principle of the "transitional programme" and actively intervene in "mainstream" LGBT activism such as Pride marches.

I believe you are clearly wrong if you are trying to paint a picture that suggests the majority of LGBT people in general or LGBT activists are just "rebellious teenagers looking for some fun". Fact is, objectively LGBT people are heavily discriminated, if they are not sincere about what they do, they certainly wouldn't be able to persist doing it faced with all of the discrimination and oppression.



Basically what I'm directing my hatred at are those Social Democrat, angry teenage "Anarchists" who really don't know what they're talking about. I'm pretty sure everyone has felt that annoyance before.
"Hatred" is really the wrong word to use. I think queer teenagers have a right to be "angry" given all the discriminatory shit they face everyday. True, generally they lack knowledge, but they are the people which can potentially be won over to socialism. It's your duty to explain socialism to them and try to convince them, rather than "hating" them. As Lenin said, a communist party is a party for the youth.

[Soseloshvili]

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with children being rebellious sometimes. That's indeed one of the achievements of the Chinese May 4th movement in 1919: it undermined the millennia-old Confucian idea that children must always obey their parents. Marxists should under no circumstances side with the Confucians on this matter.

Sometimes it is indeed a good thing to be a rebellious youth. As the Chinese Marxist Chen Duxiu said: "Every revolutionary activity is fundamentally a form of rebellious activity."

I agree, there is constructive rebelliousness. A Teenager rebelling against the treatment of LGBT people by society, in a constructive manor, I would have no problem with this and openly support it. However to claim that the way most of the teenage populace goes about rebelling is "constructive" would be kidding yourself.


Many people who first become active in socialist politics and activism are indeed teenagers. Rather than just reject them as a group like this, you should try to draw them to socialist ideas. As Lenin said, "patiently explain".

I probably understand this better than you yourself do :lol:

I am a teenager. I deal with other teenagers every day. Patience has become my middle name... even though sometimes it makes me want to rip my hair out, talking to people my age about things like this, I have to remember that I myself was once just as clueless, and I have to try to be helpful


That's a rather ignorant representation of the LGBT movement in general. Are you suggesting that LGBT activists only conduct their activities for fun and that LGBT people in general don't face very serious discrimination and oppression almost everywhere, and that the LGBT movement as a whole is not a serious movement?

Have you ever read any serious socialist books on the LGBT movement and activism, I wonder? Or are you aware of serious LGBT movements in recent years in the US and in other countries? Do you know about the history of the modern LGBT movement from the late 19th century to today, and how it is related to socialist movements in general? Probably not.

I didn't say that. I said in my experience teenagers would prefer to wave a flag, stick pro-LGBT stickers on things and put posters up on their walls. This is because these things are easy. This phenomenon isn't at all specific or directed at LGBT activists, it's the case with most teenagers. It kind of makes me want to cry sometimes.

:laugh: I know EVERYTHING about the modern history of the LGBT movement (from Stonewall, the Gay Liberation movement of the 70s and the Transgender riots in San Fran to modern history like Don't Ask Don't Tell and Employment Nondiscrimination), I have read MANY books on the LGBT movement, I even write about the LGBT social movement.

I teach LGBT history and and the issues facing LGBT people, I lead a Gay-Straight Alliance and this takes up a good proportion of what we do.


Bashback is IMO an ultra-leftist group that will not be able to have any major impact in the world at large due to their refusal to adopt the principle of the "transitional programme" and actively intervene in "mainstream" LGBT activism such as Pride marches.

I agree. That's why I don't work with Bashback myself. I'm just saying that there are some politically knowledgeable people in that group.


I believe you are clearly wrong if you are trying to paint a picture that suggests the majority of LGBT people in general or LGBT activists are just "rebellious teenagers looking for some fun". Fact is, objectively LGBT people are heavily discriminated, if they are not sincere about what they do, they certainly wouldn't be able to persist doing it faced with all of the discrimination and oppression.

I believe the vast majority of all teenagers (once again not singling out LGBT people) are just "rebellious and looking for some fun".

I understand the discrimination faced by LGBT people, you don't need to explain it to me. What I'm getting at is that most LGBT teens main goal is to fit in. They don't care about social injustices, or how they're being oppressed. They just want to fit in, and forget about it all like most teenagers.


"Hatred" is really the wrong word to use. I think queer teenagers have a right to be "angry" given all the discriminatory shit they face everyday. True, generally they lack knowledge, but they are the people which can potentially be won over to socialism. It's your duty to explain socialism to them and try to convince them, rather than "hating" them. As Lenin said, a communist party is a party for the youth.

I agree. This is what I do every day of my life. It's no surprise that the majority of people who take me seriously when I talk about things like exploitation and oppression are LGBT. It's just that LGBT teens suffer the same blindness as everyone, maybe even more so than others: they don't want to hear it. They just want to fit in, be the same as everyone else and hope they don't get notice. That or they don't want to hear it, they just want to take comfort in being "different" from others.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Because, people who say those things are typically people who have no conception of left wing politics. Almost all people I've met are teenagers who just do it to be rebellious, who wouldn't know the first thing about actual left wing politics or even current political issues. I'm not a teenager, I'm twenty three years old.


I guess it's more "fun" to wave a rainbow flag, wear a Peta pin and listen to punk music than to actually read Chomsky, Zinn, or watch Michael Moore (you know, actually learn something).
I don't wear any peta pins, I prefer the pink bloc flag and I prefer to read Federico Garcia Lorca, Pablo Neruda, Langston Hughs and sometimes Emily Dickinson as my favorite reads. Occasionally I'll step out of the realm of poetry for Kate Bornstein.


That being said, I have met some people (mainly people who work with the group Bashback) who actually know what they're talking and identify with groups that are "anarchoqueer". It's just the vast majority that this applies too.
Funny you should mention that, I remember being involved with Bash Back!


Basically what I'm directing my hatred at are those Social Democrat, angry teenage "Anarchists" who really don't know what they're talking about. I'm pretty sure everyone has felt that annoyance before.
I'm not a teenager, nor a social democrat.

[Soseloshvili]

I'm not a teenager, I'm twenty three years old.


I don't wear any peta pins, I prefer the pink bloc flag and I prefer to read Federico Garcia Lorca, Pablo Neruda, Langston Hughs and sometimes Emily Dickinson as my favorite reads. Occasionally I'll step out of the realm of poetry for Kate Bornstein.


Funny you should mention that, I remember being involved with Bash Back!


I'm not a teenager, nor a social democrat.

In what way, at all, did you think I was talking about you. Did I ever refer to you? No. I referred, in general, to teenage social activists. Why did you even bother to respond?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

In what way, at all, did you think I was talking about you. Did I ever refer to you? No. I referred, in general, to teenage social activists. Why did you even bother to respond?
Because I'm egotistical, vain, and self-absorbed. :laugh: