Sheridan Perjury Trial [Archive]

Jolly Red Giant

15th October 2010, 17:36

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_Tax_Riots#Responses
WIKIPEDIA - you are pulling my leg right :rolleyes:

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/awg/poll_tax.3.html

Please produce evidence rather than an opinion (and opinionated) piece from the anarchists.

This issue has taken on the status of an urban myth that is repeatedly thrown out as a stick to beat the CWI (even though Sheridan hasn't been a member for well over 15 years). With the exception of Devrim and myself, no one on this board has ever actually seen the TV interview - and I think Devrim has acknowledged that no one has been able to produce footage of the interview and until that happens then it is simply from (20 year old) memory that both of us are operating. Most people don't even know if it was Sheridan, Nally or both who gave the interview.

Finally - I put the thread up because I felt that people might be interested given the involvement of Sheridan, the Scottish Socialist Party and Murdoch's News of the World and the state. I am not interested in discussing the politics of Sheridan and the poll tax (open a new thread on that if you want - or just go and revive all the old ones).

Interesting development today is that Andy Coulson, ex-editor of the NOTW and currently the government's director of communications is being called by Sheridan as a defence witness. Coulson was accused of illegally tapping the phones of people who the NOTW had targeted for 'exposure'. It should make an interesting day in court.

"Tommy Sheridan named Coulson today in a revised list of defence witnesses who also included Glenn Mulcaire, a private investigator who was jailed for six months in 2007 for phone-hacking voicemail messages for NoTW"

Crux

15th October 2010, 17:41

And I do wonder what reason you would have to want to discuss this now while Sheridan is under attack from the right and from the Murdoch media.
It should pretty much be no-brainer as to which side you should pick here.

Devrim

15th October 2010, 21:04

With the exception of Devrim and myself, no one on this board has ever actually seen the TV interview -

Yes, I have seen it and we disagree over what was said. Anyone who is interested can search for the thread(s). They shouldn't be to hard to find.

and I think Devrim has acknowledged that no one has been able to produce footage of the interview and until that happens then it is simply from (20 year old) memory that both of us are operating.

This is true.

Most people don't even know if it was Sheridan, Nally or both who gave the interview.

As I remember it was Steve Nally who said it, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Devrim

Jolly Red Giant

18th October 2010, 19:05

Major development in this trial today.

During cross-examination by Tommy Sheridan, former Scottish Socialist Party MSP Rosie Kane named Alan McCoombes as the individual who provided a sworn affidavit to the Sunday Hearld about the events at the Scottish Socialist Party National Executive meeting on 9 Nov. 2004. The significance of this is that Alan McCoombes subsequently went to jail for contempt of court for refusing to hand over ducuments relating to the same meeting to the court - after he had already provided them to the media.

ed miliband

23rd October 2010, 12:53

My favourite thing about this case so far is the revelation that Sheridan either had a sunbed in his house, or walked through the snow to have a tanning session.

Saorsa

23rd October 2010, 15:00

Why the fuck are SSP members taking the stand in a bourgeois court against fellow socialists?

The SSP/Solidarity split was a mess, but let's be honest. The line is pretty clearly drawn here. The capitalist state is prosecuting a leading leftist, and the SSP (or at least many of its members) are collaborating with that process.

Jolly Red Giant

23rd December 2010, 13:35

Evidence and summation has finished in the trial of Tommy Sheridan. The jury is currently deliberating on a verdict.

Over the past couple of weeks the Crown Prosecutor has been forced to drop all charges against Gail Sheridan (Tommy's wife) because of lack of evidence. Approximately three-quarters of the charges against Tommy Sheridan have been dropped, including one which charged him with attempting to get Colin Fox to lie in court.

After £2million and 52,000 police hours (the most expensive case in Scottish legal history) the verdict will be decided by a majority of the jury. If eight of the remaining fourteen jurors vote in favour of a guilty verdict on any of the remaining six charges Sheridan faces up to life imprisonment.

There is a very detailed (and widely acknowledged as very balanced) account of the trial proceedings here

www.sheridantrial.blogspot.com

It is impossible to know how the verdict will go, however, from my reading of the trial proceedings, practically every one of the SSP members who appeared as witnesses for the Crown against Tommy Sheridan gave evidence that they had misled the court during the libel trial in 2006. In all honesty, the credibility of all of them is completely shot.

A.J.

23rd December 2010, 13:41

The SSP more or less admitted, in open court, to be opportunistic social-democrats when they stated that they were worried about becoming "unelectable"[to a bourgeois parliament] if the allegations about Sheridan's private life entered the public domain.

Pure evil

ed miliband

23rd December 2010, 13:42

Dunno about "evil"...

ed miliband

23rd December 2010, 17:33

Oh you edited your post making my post look sillier than it originally was.

Anyway, he's been found guilty. Can't say I'm weeping.

hatzel

23rd December 2010, 19:18

I must admit that I found his statement very interesting, particularly if you happen to be interested in the art of spin and all that:

For three years my wife and I have faced charges of perjury. Today, I was convicted and Gail was acquitted of any crime. I have fought the power of News International all my political life, and I make no apologies for taking on the might of Rupert Murdoch. Several million pounds of public money was spent investigating me and my wife. Is it not time that similar resources were devoted to investigating the activities of the News of the World.

Sam_b

23rd December 2010, 19:58

SWP Statement on the verdict, which also includes the statement from Solidarity:
http://socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=23459

Socialist Worker is appalled that an alliance of Rupert Murdoch's News of the World and the police has secured a perjury verdict against socialist Tommy Sheridan.
Those who gave evidence against him should reflect that only the rich and the powerful will rejoice when, as is very likely, Tommy goes to jail.
The blog which has produced excellent reports on the case tells how, "At 3.40pm today the jury returned to the court and gave their verdict. A hushed court heard the jury's spokesperson declare that on a majority, the verdict was one of guilty on the charge of perjury.
"The Clerk of the court then asked if there were any parts of the indictment the jury wished to delete. The court was told that the jury wished to remove the parts of the charge relating to Anvar Khan and part of the charge that had said Sheridan had a sexual relationship with Katrine Trolle.
"The court then heard from the Advocate Depute who informed the judge of Tommy Sheridan's 'criminal record', which he said were charges relating to 'protest activities'. The judge Lord Bracadale then asked Tommy Sheridan to rise and informed him that he would continue to grant him bail but when he returned for sentencing, on 26 January 2011 Sheridan should 'expect to be sentenced to prison'."
Tommy's real crime was to be a principled socialist and then to win a libel case against the Murdoch press.
That is why he was singled out for a perjury case, an extraordinarily unusual procedure.
Tommy was one of the foremost leaders of the great anti-poll tax movement during Margaret Thatcher’s Tory regime.
He was jailed for his actions, but still managed to be elected a councillor. Later he was voted in as a socialist Member of the Scottish Parliament.
The case that concluded today dates back to 2004, when Andy Coulson, now David Cameron’s media chief, was editor of the News of the World. The newspaper, one of whose journalists has been jailed for illegally tapping phones, ran a story about Sheridan’s private life.
Sheridan sued the paper for libel and, in August 2006, he was awarded damages of £200,000.
News International responded with fury. It demanded that Sheridan be hounded down for daring to fight back.
The Lothian and Borders police launched a major investigation that cost over £2 million.
Mow Sheridan is found guilty but Coulson, who gave evidence in the case, escapes without charge
Solidarity, which the SWP supports, has put out the following statement:
"Scotland’s Socialist Movement today reiterates our support for our co-convenor Tommy Sheridan despite the jury’s verdict following the most expensive perjury investigation in Scottish legal history.
"Tommy Sheridan’s only crime has been to speak truth to power for as long as he has been involved in socialist politics.
"For over four long years, Tommy, his wife, their family and other members of Solidarity have found themselves under investigation by the police and the crown office following his libel victory over The News of the World in 2006. During this time and despite the pressure we have found ourselves under, Solidarity as a party has remained united and committed to raising socialist arguments and campaigning on the issues that matter to ordinary people.
"We will enter 2011 determined to campaign and fight with renewed vigour against the public sector cuts and austerity measures introduced by a class of politicians determined to make ordinary people pay the price for the bailout of the banks.We will continue to oppose illegal wars, campaign for justice for the Palestinians, support asylum seekers and stand shoulder to shoulder with trade unionists and communities fighting back against the cuts.
"We will demonstrate SOLIDARITY WITH those fighting against low pay and oppression. SOLIDARITY AGAINST poverty and discrimination in all its forms. SOLIDARITY FOR an independent socialist nuclear free Scotland.
"Between 1999 and 2007, Tommy Sheridan was a fantastic advocate on behalf of the poor, the disadvantaged, the vulnerable and the working class of Scotland as an MSP in the Holyrood Parliament.
"During this time he had an unparalleled record in raising the issues that matter most in an effective and mature manner.
"Tommy took only the average wage of a skilled worker, donating the rest back to the socialist movement and worked tirelessly to build the socialist cause. He is a working class fighter who has waged war on poverty and injustice where ever he has found it.
"We in Solidarity are proud to call ourselves comrades and friends of Tommy Sheridan."

For those who are interested, Scottish Socialist Youth have written an account of what happened, from a point of view of the so-called 'United Left' faction, which I find pretty disgraceful, but in the interest of balance:
http://ssy.org.uk/2010/12/the-truth-about-tommy-sheridan/
(This one is too long even to spoiler. As a former SSY Executive Committee member and supporter of 'SSP Majority' I find it particularly amusing that I am namechecked in it, however).

Sam_b

23rd December 2010, 20:03

SSP's statement:

http://scottishsocialistparty.org/new_stories/statements/sheridan-conviction.html

Tommy Sheridan’s conviction today for perjury was inevitable.
Six years ago, as leader of the Scottish Socialist Party, he proposed to sue a tabloid newspaper over stories he knew to be true and demanded that our party went along with his lies. All his closest friends and political allies of 20 years urged him not to take such a reckless course of action.
He will now be dealt with by the judge. We have no desire for vengeance.
What is more important is that all those who have been falsely denounced by him and his allies as liars, plotters, perjurers and forgers have been cleared.
The idea that there was a conspiracy involving Rupert Murdoch, Lothian and Borders Police and the SSP is nonsense and yet this is the narrative that Tommy Sheridan’s supporters publicly promoted for the past 4 years.
By his actions over six years, Tommy Sheridan has disgraced himself and negated his political contribution to the socialist cause over 25 years. History will now record that he did more harm to the socialist cause in Scotland than any good he ever did it.
That astonishing conclusion would not have been thought possible at the height of the poll tax struggle he led so well, or during his early period in the Scottish Socialist Party and Scottish Parliament.
The SSP reaffirms that its aim is to defend the interests of working people, the millions against the millionaires and to fight for a socialist transformation of society in the interests of the majority.
We now draw a line under this sorry saga and move on. The Scottish Socialist Party has been tested to the limit over the past six years and has proven it is a party of principles and integrity.
In this time of savage attacks by the rich against the poor, Scotland more than ever needs a strong left wing socialist party that can be trusted.
I find the 'we have no desire for vengeance' part pretty ironic.

The Idler

23rd December 2010, 22:45

Any decent socialist organisation worth its salt always publishes its executive minutes (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/ecminutes/index.html) anyway. Well, at least the ones serious about not building a leadership cult which leads to situations like these.

Sam_b

23rd December 2010, 23:05

Well, at least the ones serious about not building a leadership cult which leads to situations like these.

Way to show a complete lack of understanding about the whole affair.

uni

24th December 2010, 11:22

Seeing as only one side of the story is being shown on this website I (as a member of the SSP) am going to show the SSP's statement (unfortunately I have got enough post to post the link)

Tommy Sheridan’s conviction today for perjury was inevitable.
Six years ago, as leader of the Scottish Socialist Party, he proposed to sue a tabloid newspaper over stories he knew to be true and demanded that our party went along with his lies. All his closest friends and political allies of 20 years urged him not to take such a reckless course of action.
He will now be dealt with by the judge. We have no desire for vengeance.
What is more important is that all those who have been falsely denounced by him and his allies as liars, plotters, perjurers and forgers have been cleared.
The idea that there was a conspiracy involving Rupert Murdoch, Lothian and Borders Police and the SSP is nonsense and yet this is the narrative that Tommy Sheridan’s supporters publicly promoted for the past 4 years.
By his actions over six years, Tommy Sheridan has disgraced himself and negated his political contribution to the socialist cause over 25 years. History will now record that he did more harm to the socialist cause in Scotland than any good he ever did it.
That astonishing conclusion would not have been thought possible at the height of the poll tax struggle he led so well, or during his early period in the Scottish Socialist Party and Scottish Parliament.
The SSP reaffirms that its aim is to defend the interests of working people, the millions against the millionaires and to fight for a socialist transformation of society in the interests of the majority.
We now draw a line under this sorry saga and move on. The Scottish Socialist Party has been tested to the limit over the past six years and has proven it is a party of principles and integrity.
In this time of savage attacks by the rich against the poor, Scotland more than ever needs a strong left wing socialist party that can be trusted.

Our members have been called "Scabs" and other false accusations and now this verdict has resulted in Sheridan and co. being proved as liars and the SSP were telling the truth, however these points I've known for years now. I'm not celebrating but I'm relieved that this is all over and we (the SSP) can now focus on the Elections in 2011 and beyond.

Sam_b

24th December 2010, 12:11

Seeing as only one side of the story is being shown on this website I (as a member of the SSP) am going to show the SSP's statement (unfortunately I have got enough post to post the link)

One side is not being shown at all. You'll see in my earlier post I link to the SWP and SSY statements, and two posts above you I link to the SSP one.

Our members have been called "Scabs" and other false accusations and now this verdict has resulted in Sheridan and co. being proved as liars and the SSP were telling the truth, however these points I've known for years now. I'm not celebrating but I'm relieved that this is all over and we (the SSP) can now focus on the Elections in 2011 and beyond.

It says a lot that you regard verdicts that come from bourgeois courts as being the final say on people being 'proved as liars'. Out of interest, ifyou've known all this for 'years' were you an active member in Aberdeen North/Central SSP or North-East SSY around 2003-2006? Just out of interest, I probably know you if so.

EDIT: Also, why are you putting so much weight on 'focus on the elections in 2011' when no real change comes from them? Does this reflect the SSP's strategy in organising and tactics? At a time where students made a massive dent into the Con-Dem coalition and we're going into a new year which will see much more organised workers activity in strikes and on the streets why is this so important?

vyborg

24th December 2010, 12:41

if I understand the whole affair, Tommy never denied having sex with prostitutes and doing things like that. well if you are a leader of the working class you cannot behave in a way bourgeois press can use against the working class, the labour movement. this is madness, whatever you personally think about such a behaviour.

Therefore Tommy made a big mistake proving himself an irresponsible guy.

It goes without saying that every normal whealty people behave like this, most of MP's pays escort etc etc, but they are capitalist puppets. it is normal for them to behave like the bastards they are.

socialist leaders should show a different way of life. otherwise they are very poor socialist. I dont say it only referring to Tommy. I've seen many times that some socialist, even marxist, has an idea of revolutionary morality that can be described as Ramadan-like, with the sun light they are socialist, after the sun has gone to bed they behave recklessly.

Fighting capitalism is the most important and difficult task humankind has ever faced, it cannot be taken lightly. workers' leader must be irreprensibile.

Stranger Than Paradise

24th December 2010, 12:42

Tommy Sheridan on the Poll Tax Riots:

ZDlqF6AE6dk

42 seconds in

Sam_b

24th December 2010, 14:06

if I understand the whole affair, Tommy never denied having sex with prostitutes and doing things like that

The accusations made about prostitutes were dropped during the trial.

ed miliband

24th December 2010, 16:50

http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2010/12/tommy-sheridan-tragedy-and-farce.html

The Grey Blur

24th December 2010, 17:10

the people trying to turn this into a socialist issue are absolute hacks. noone in the matter comes out clean, and however it might suit sheridan and sectish delusions of grandeur, this was never about bringing down a "champion of the working class", it was typical tabloid muckraking and instead of dealing with it maturely sheridan destroyed the SSP from the inside. well done to all involved, you pack of cretins.

the only people worse are the anarcho-hipsters posting a video of sheridan talking about the poll tax riot as if that has any relation to this...you wonder why noone takes the left seriously? because some of you treat it like a fucking religion, and deviations are to be punished by excommunication. eejits.

Jolly Red Giant

24th December 2010, 17:15

now this verdict has resulted in Sheridan and co. being proved as liars and the SSP were telling the truth,
With all due respect - many of the SSP members who were witnesses for the Crown were also shown to be liars -

1. Alan McCoombes provided an affidavit to the Scottish Herald on the 'minutes' of the Executive meeting - yet in the libel trial denied any knowledge of who had done so. McCoombes also denied knowledge of who had the handwritten notes - yet knew all along.

2. Barbara Scott denied knowing where the handwritten notes were during the libel trial - yet had them in her handbag while she was sitting in the witness stand. She then handed them into the police but made no mention of the fact that she had them in her possession when giving evidence. During the criminal trial Scott claimed that she told the police that she had them in her possess, but then had to admit that she lied when her statement to the polcie was read out in court.

3. Alan Green denied knowledge of where the handwritten notes were during the libel trial - yet admitted in the criminal trial that he knew all along that they were in the possession of Barbara Scott.

I could go on - but I would suggest that it is pretty obvious that more than one person lied in court.

uni

24th December 2010, 17:27

One side is not being shown at all. You'll see in my earlier post I link to the SWP and SSY statements, and two posts above you I link to the SSP one.

It says a lot that you regard verdicts that come from bourgeois courts as being the final say on people being 'proved as liars'. Out of interest, ifyou've known all this for 'years' were you an active member in Aberdeen North/Central SSP or North-East SSY around 2003-2006? Just out of interest, I probably know you if so.

EDIT: Also, why are you putting so much weight on 'focus on the elections in 2011' when no real change comes from them? Does this reflect the SSP's strategy in organising and tactics? At a time where students made a massive dent into the Con-Dem coalition and we're going into a new year which will see much more organised workers activity in strikes and on the streets why is this so important?

No I joined 2008/9. I followed the case deeply before I was a member of the SSP and when I joined a few private conversations with other members educated me even more on the matter.

I was taking a broader out look when I said "Elections 2011 and beyond". The SSP/SSY have had a clearly visible presence at all anti-cuts demos in Scotland we will continue the struggle and fight day by day. The Election 2011 is big for us and the student protest and cuts will be deeply involved, do not take my word as strictly being "SSP strategy". It shall be interesting what left wing parties will stand.

I shall pose you these questions; Do you think Sheirdan lied in court? Do you consider the SSP scabs?

uni

24th December 2010, 17:29

With all due respect - many of the SSP members who were witnesses for the Crown were also shown to be liars -

1. Alan McCoombes provided an affidavit to the Scottish Herald on the 'minutes' of the Executive meeting - yet in the libel trial denied any knowledge of who had done so. McCoombes also denied knowledge of who had the handwritten notes - yet knew all along.

2. Barbara Scott denied knowing where the handwritten notes were during the libel trial - yet had them in her handbag while she was sitting in the witness stand. She then handed them into the police but made no mention of the fact that she had them in her possession when giving evidence. During the criminal trial Scott claimed that she told the police that she had them in her possess, but then had to admit that she lied when her statement to the polcie was read out in court.

3. Alan Green denied knowledge of where the handwritten notes were during the libel trial - yet admitted in the criminal trial that he knew all along that they were in the possession of Barbara Scott.

I could go on - but I would suggest that it is pretty obvious that more than one person lied in court.
There is some many things factually wrong with this post I can only refer you to the SSY article on the blog.

Jolly Red Giant

24th December 2010, 17:35

There is some many things factually wrong with this post I can only refer you to the SSY article on the blog.
I have read the SSY article (which in my opinion is an absolute disgrace) - but I would suggest that you point out specifically what I have stated above that is factually wrong - and before you do I suggest you go and have a look at James Doleman's blog on the case and see what each of these individuals actually said in court.

Unfortuantely (and I say this with a heavy heart as the SSP offered so much potential) - the SSP as a political organisation is gone, finished, going nowhere. Certain individuals may dig in and continue to keep it alive for a period - but it hasn't a hope in hell of developing beyond where it is now.

Sam_b

24th December 2010, 17:43

I shall pose you these questions; Do you think Sheirdan lied in court? Do you consider the SSP scabs?

Why do you consider lying in a bourgeois court to be the be all and end all? The fact of the matter is that many in the SSP don't seem to understand that not only was this about a socialist against a tabloid Murdoch newspaper, but also a catalyst in the long-standing tensions that arose from the SSP's platform structure. It may be convenient to structure this around 'Tommy Sheridan lying in court' but what is so precious about courts which are a part of a failed state justice system?

Referring to the SSY article is pretty weak, considering you haven't even quoted from it to back up your argument at all. Like JRG I consider the article to be absolutely shameful and an exercise in smug one-upmanship. It also disgarcefully calls out people and singles them out - for instance I am accused, bizarrely, of leaking Camp Secret Squirrel details to the Mirror (and accusation, of course, without a shred of evidence).

Stranger Than Paradise

24th December 2010, 18:42

the only people worse are the anarcho-hipsters posting a video of sheridan talking about the poll tax riot as if that has any relation to this...you wonder why noone takes the left seriously? because some of you treat it like a fucking religion, and deviations are to be punished by excommunication. eejits.

Alright then. What qualifies an Anarcho-Hipster?

Earlier in the thread you'll recall it being questioned whether Sheridan co-operated with the police after the Poll Tax riot. I thought I'd help out the person who had said this and been shot down by showing Sheridan's attitude to the riots.

The Idler

24th December 2010, 21:02

If you're gonna launch an libel action in bourgeois courts using the apparatus of a capitalist state, don't expect to drag the socialist party that you are in, along with you.

vyborg

24th December 2010, 22:11

http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2010/12/tommy-sheridan-tragedy-and-farce.html

The article is very interesting even if a bit onesided as far as why Tommy found himself in a court is concerned.

I especially agree on this idea: "The logic of this position is set out in this article (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/issue/451/5398/10-08-2006/tommy-sheridans-victory-over-news-of-the-world) from The Socialist. It was a part-political, part-moral position. Political because Tommy was Scotland's "most iconic post-war socialist" and had pull among the Scottish working class. Moral because socialists shouldn't look down the noses at comrades' sexual preferences, let alone testify against them in court."

The behaviour of a workers' leader is part of his political life. any behaviour. If someone is not able to control his sexual life (and his life in general) he is not fit to lead the workers in Scotland or anywhere else.

Crux

24th December 2010, 22:14

If you're gonna launch an libel action in bourgeois courts using the apparatus of a capitalist state, don't expect to drag the socialist party that you are in, along with you.
Expect them to stab you in the back instead?

Devrim

24th December 2010, 23:23

Earlier in the thread you'll recall it being questioned whether Sheridan co-operated with the police after the Poll Tax riot. I thought I'd help out the person who had said this and been shot down by showing Sheridan's attitude to the riots.

Just as a point of information, this isn't the interview refered to earlier in the thread but a different one.

Edit: fair play to Andy Murphy from Class War, who incidentally I used to know. He was very good.

Devrim

The Grey Blur

25th December 2010, 01:05

If you're gonna launch an libel action in bourgeois courts using the apparatus of a capitalist state, don't expect to drag the socialist party that you are in, along with you.
especially when you committed the acts you were accused of, refuse to make some sort of moral stand on your sexual practices (as in, explain that you have the right to do whatever you want with other consenting adults), tell your comrades that you did these acts (incriminating them whether they now like it or not), and expecting them to risk their own necks via supporting your libel attempt in court.

like i said, the whole thing is a seedy sad affair and the fact that the various sects are wetting themselves in their efforts to salvage something from the detritus is utterly pathetic.

Rosa Lichtenstein

25th December 2010, 09:12

Excellent article here:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/12/tommy-sheridan-ssp-and-future-of-left.html

Read the discussion, too.

See also here:

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=7415

Jolly Red Giant

25th December 2010, 16:41

If you're gonna launch an libel action in bourgeois courts using the apparatus of a capitalist state, don't expect to drag the socialist party that you are in, along with you.
But here is the rub - the only reason why the SSP ended up in the courts was because the SSP leadership discussed the NotW article. If it had not been discussed at the Executive meeting then there was absolutely no benefit to the NotW or the Crown to call any SSP members as witnesses.

This poses the question - why the hell did McCoombes et al discuss the issue at the Executive meeting? Did they not realise that by discussing it they would get embroiled in the court case? (it was the first thing that struck me when the notW printed their article). However, it also raises another question - given that the Executive did discuss it, what the hell were the motives of McCoombes and the rest of the leadership in discussing it? My reading of it (from some distance away) was that they hoped to use the issue to force Sheridan out of the leadership. If that was the case then it demonstrates nothing more than the utmost stupidity of the leadership. It is 20 years since I last spoke to Sheridan and I knew he would go after the NotW. It was in his character and he really had no other option from his perspective.

This is why I place the blame for the destruction of the SSP firmly at the door of McCoombes and the others in the leadership. McCoombes is constantly being portrayed as the brains behind the SSP (he certainly was very sharp in political terms when I knew him as a full-timer in the Militant) - these manoeuvres in my opinion demonstrated that he left his brains at the door the day of that Executive meeting.

Excellent article here:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/12/tommy-sheridan-ssp-and-future-of-left.html

Read the discussion, too.

See also here:

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=7415
From what I have seen - a pretty good summation of events.

Interesting article here from Ian Hamilton QC -
http://newsnetscotland.com/politics/1306-qc-lambasts-sheridan-case-as-qprostitution-of-scots-lawq

Stranger Than Paradise

25th December 2010, 21:33

Just as a point of information, this isn't the interview refered to earlier in the thread but a different one.

Edit: fair play to Andy Murphy from Class War, who incidentally I used to know. He was very good.

Devrim

Yeah Andy Murphy did a good job. Especially when the interviewer opened by saying most of you at home will find the views of Class War repugnant.

I know it wasn't the same one, I didn't look for it I just came across this.

The Grey Blur

25th December 2010, 23:27

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/12/23/the-fall-of-tommy-sheridan/

this says all that needs to be said.

Jolly Red Giant

26th December 2010, 01:34

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/12/23/the-fall-of-tommy-sheridan/

this says all that needs to be said.

I disagree actually - at no point, as these comments claim, was anyone in the SSP obliged to do anything by virtue of the simple fact that Sheridan brought the NotW to court. If it turned out that any were brought to court by either side they could have adopted a 'dignified silence' and said 'I know nothing about Mr Sheridan's private life and the SSP didn't discuss it.

Once the SSP did discuss it and once McCoombes ran off to the Herald this was always destined to end in disaster for the SSP - and now for Sheridan.

A.J.

26th December 2010, 11:01

http://ssy.org.uk/2010/12/the-truth-about-tommy-sheridan/

What a bunch of horrible ugly little middle class snobs they are.

:)

Fabrizio

26th December 2010, 11:49

This whole thing reminds me of the character smears on Assange.

The left is eating itself up. Our enemies seem to know that all they need to do is throw out a few sexual allegations, and the prudish nature of the many petty moralists on the left will emerge, and they'll turn it into a "feminist" issue and line up alongside the right-wing.

On a side note, notice how many supposedly progressive "feminists" are heterosexual males who want to "protect" women from the voracious advances of men. Like the pathetic way the SSP called Tommy the "serial shagger". Because of course any man who wants casual sex must be a misogynist, because we all know women hate casual sex.:rolleyes:

The Grey Blur

26th December 2010, 18:57

there's every possibility that assange did rape those women. i've no idea why you put "feminist" in scare quotes. you should take a long hard look at yourself.

there is no real equivalence between this and the assange situation anyway...what a dumb analogy.

Proteus

26th December 2010, 20:43

I am a former member of the SSP. I left after it imploded. When all this crap hit the fan and the SSP kind of split in to 2 camps I was kind of railroaded in to the one supporting Sheridan. It was common knowledge among the active members that Tommy had in the past been involved in this and that in his private life. I thought, who cares. His private life has nothing to do with anyone but himself. But the decision to sue the NOTW and the decision, most importantly for me, to split and form another party was a serious step backwards for the socialist movement in Scotland and indeed the UK.

It was so alarming and saddening to see the SSP, which was always growing fast for its first years, suddenly crashing on the rocks as former friends and comrades were now filled with hatered for each other. I attended a meeting in Glasgow which took place while Alan MacCombes was in prison for refusing to hand over the party minutes. I seen members of a party which was once well held together by a common purpose, spitting venom at one another and almost fighting in the car park.

I realised then that all our hard work to build a real left alternative in Scotland was going to be destroyed in a very short time. The Scottish Parliament elections of 2007 were the final nail in the coffin.

It is true that Tommy was a charismatic, clever, brilliant speaker. Rosie Kane's comment that sometimes his speeches would have the hair standing up on the back of your neck wasn't far wrong. Sheridan would make great sense to the Scottish working class when they had the chance to hear him. I vividly remember some of the things he said which both moved and inspired me. However whilst Tommy was a leader of a party which grew and grew under his tallented leadership, it was him that brought it crashing on the rocks. In a sense Tommy was always too good to be true. Tommy had every right to resign, take on the NOTW etc etc. He done this however in the knowledge it would cause severe harm to the movement in Scotland and cause even more bitterness among people within the movement. He took on the NOTW for defamation whilst actually most of the allegations were true and hang the consequences for the movement. Thousands of ordinary people worked like hell to build the SSP in to a serious left wing alternative and Tommy didn't give a fuck in the end about them or the movement, only himself. The real tragedy here is what happened to the left in Scotland. Tommy Sheridan can rot in jail and in saying that I am only returning the same respect he had for ordinary members like me when he chose to put his stupid selfishness before the movement.

Fabrizio

26th December 2010, 23:29

there's every possibility that assange did rape those women.

How do you know there's "every possibility"...? You have as much idea as I do, which is none. My point is though that we shouldn't even be talking about it, it's a distraction put out by the media and the establishment to smear an opponent.

Same goes for Sheridan. And the petty, moralistic prudes who went out of their way to drag him back into court once he'd already won a libel case have successfulyl helped to disgrace their movement where the Murdoch media failed. With enemies like that the right-wing don't need friends.

Magdalen

27th December 2010, 00:41

How do you know there's "every possibility"...? You have as much idea as I do, which is none. My point is though that we shouldn't even be talking about it, it's a distraction put out by the media and the establishment to smear an opponent.

Same goes for Sheridan. And the petty, moralistic prudes who went out of their way to drag him back into court once he'd already won a libel case have successfulyl helped to disgrace their movement where the Murdoch media failed. With enemies like that the right-wing don't need friends.

Sheridan is as guilty as sin, and though I've never been a member of either the SSP or Solidarity (the party which reduces socialist tradition down to one simple creed - 'We Love Tommy'), I have absolutely no reason to doubt it. I refuse to believe that all the people who testified against Tommy at both his trials were perjuring themselves merely out of bitterness - would Alan McCombes really have set up a charade of getting himself sent to prison merely as a round-about way of getting one up on Sheridan? I don't think so. The SSP might not be my political cup-of-tea, but they're certainly not key players in a giant conspiracy involving MI5 and Rupert Murdoch.

Sheridan is a politically-underdeveloped shyster (I'll leave this be just now, but I could quite happily write screeds on all his purely political misdemeanours) who used the Socialist movement as a vehicle for his own self-promotion - until the crows came home to roost, he thought bringing everything crashing down was the best thing that'd ever happened to him - remember Celebrity Big Brother, remember the critically panned sexist shows at the Edinburgh festival?

I've heard comrades, particularly those from the CWI and the SWP, go to great pains to suppress their own mental faculties to promote the Sheridan line, and I pity them greatly. I've been told by one SWP-er that a good proportion of his comrades know fine and well Tommy is guilty, but are under strict orders to hold the Party line in public. That said, I can't remember the last time I saw the SWP proclaiming their membership of Solidarity in the streets.

I don't want to see Tommy Sherdian go to jail - as a Socialist, I will always stand against the British prison system, although some sort of custodial sentence now seems sadly inevitable. I want him to stand up and admit he lied. I want him apologise for what he's put his comrades, both former and present, through. I want him never to darken the doorway of the Socialist movement in this country again.

Fabrizio

27th December 2010, 15:44

Sheridan is a politically-underdeveloped shyster (I'll leave this be just now, but I could quite happily write screeds on all his purely political misdemeanours) who used the Socialist movement as a vehicle for his own self-promotion - until the crows came home to roost, he thought bringing everything crashing down was the best thing that'd ever happened to him - remember Celebrity Big Brother, remember the critically panned sexist shows at the Edinburgh festival?

Celebrity Big Brother? I think you're thinking of George Galloway.

I don't want to see Tommy Sherdian go to jail - as a Socialist, I will always stand against the British prison system, although some sort of custodial sentence now seems sadly inevitable. I want him to stand up and admit he lied. I want him apologise for what he's put his comrades, both former and present, through. I want him never to darken the doorway of the Socialist movement in this country again.

You're ignoring that they chose to put him in court again. The matter was finished. It was just the self-destructive, pathetic behaviour of born losers. You're so keen to see an apology that you don't even think how bad this looks to the general population.

Nobody reading the press sees that it was the SSP that got one over an "opportunist", all anyone sees is "corrupt socialist defeated by News of the World". Can you really not see that? For all the outrage of the "principled" left, nobody even knows they exist FFS. Their role is only ever to be used by more intelligent right-wingers, and then discarded with. I don't say they did it on purpose, I just think they're textbook useful idiots.

ed miliband

27th December 2010, 17:19

Celebrity Big Brother? I think you're thinking of George Galloway.

Erm, no:

FQpwpAZHfow

Jolly Red Giant

27th December 2010, 18:32

would Alan McCombes really have set up a charade of getting himself sent to prison merely as a round-about way of getting one up on Sheridan? I don't think so.
Yet this is precisely what McCoombes did - McCoombes went to the Scottish Herald and swore out an affidavit attesting to the fact that Sheridan admitted at the SSP Executive meeting to going to Cupids. He then went to the following Executive meeting and put forward the 'defiance' strategy not to hand over internal SSP documents AFTER he had already given them to the Scottish Herald. So I would pose this question to you - why did McCoombes make such a big deal about going to jail after he had already given the exact same documents to the media?

The SSP might not be my political cup-of-tea, but they're certainly not key players in a giant conspiracy involving MI5 and Rupert Murdoch.
Was there a conspiracy? who knows and to be honest its an irrelevent question. The NotW were clearly licking their lips at the prospect of turing over Sheridan. When they lost the libel trial it is clear that they were instrumental in ensuring the state would go after Sheridan on criminal charges. And right throughout both legal cases the leadership of the SSP were walking with them hand-in-hand, first by testifying for the NotW in the libel case, then running to the cops with the 'minutes', then selling the 'taped confession' to the NotW (and McNeilage has claimed with the knowledge of the leadership of the SSP - something they have not denied) and finally in testifying for the state in the criminal trial. Furthermore, many of them were forced to admit that they gave misleading evidence in the libel trial and some were also caught out in giving misleading information to the cops and to the criminal trial.

Sheridan is a politically-underdeveloped shyster (I'll leave this be just now, but I could quite happily write screeds on all his purely political misdemeanours) who used the Socialist movement as a vehicle for his own self-promotion
No one would suggest that Sheridan is blameless in this entire debacle. However, the SSP leadership, and yourself, argue that Sheridan was a mere figurehead and McCoombes and others were the brains behind the SSP. If this is the case why was McCoombes so bloody stupid to actually discuss the NotW article at the SSP executive meeting? A dog with a mallet up its rear-end would have realised that by discussing the issue at the meeting it would inevitably blow up in their faces.

I've heard comrades, particularly those from the CWI and the SWP, go to great pains to suppress their own mental faculties to promote the Sheridan line, and I pity them greatly.
I can't speak for the SWP, but the CWI had no illusions in what Sheridan waas and was not capable of - remember Sheridan was a member of the CWI and Sheridan split from the CWI when he help found the SSP. The CWI know Sheridan far better than most other left activists. The CWI did not promote the 'Sheridan line' - the CWI argued their own independent position on this and all other issues. Specifically in this case, the CWI criticised the SSP leadership for discussing the NotW article, criticised the taking of minutes, opposed the 'defiance strategy' (which was a ruse as McCoombes actions have demonstrated), and argued that the actions of the SSP leadership would result in them being discredited as stooges of the NotW and the state - all of which has been proved correct.

I've been told by one SWP-er that a good proportion of his comrades know fine and well Tommy is guilty, but are under strict orders to hold the Party line in public. That said, I can't remember the last time I saw the SWP proclaiming their membership of Solidarity in the streets.
In political terms Sheridan's guilt in a capitalist court after the debacle of the past 4 years is pretty much irrelevent. The SSP has imploded, Solidarity is also probably on its last legs as well. The cuase of socialism in Scotland has been set back to a considerable extent.

However, the blame for this must lie mostly with the SSP leadership. The SSP were definitely going to suffer from the NotW article. But if Sheridan had not taken the libel case against them it is very likely that the NotW would have continued to publish 'exposés' of his private life which would have continued the drip, drip impact on the SSP. The SSP leadership should have refused to discuss it, not recorded any 'minutes', nt run off to the Scottish Herald, not got involved in the 'defiance strategy', not run to the cops after the libel trial, not got involved in selling the 'confession tape' to the NotW and not testified in either case. In such circumstances there could have been the possibility of saving much of what existed in the SSP. By doing the opposite they created the circumstances for their own demise and Sheridan's likely imprisonment.

I don't want to see Tommy Sherdian go to jail
Too late for that.

I want him apologise for what he's put his comrades, both former and present, through. I want him never to darken the doorway of the Socialist movement in this country again.
To be honest - the leadership of the SSP brought most of this on themselves - once the NotW publised the article about Sheridan it was inevitable that he was going to sue. By discussing it at the SSP executive and recording 'minutes' they created a situation that they were going to be dragged into this on the side of the NotW and the state. It does raise a question about the level of their political incompetence in ending up in the situation they are now in - and whether they were ever capable of building a mass left force in Scotland.

Nobody reading the press sees that it was the SSP that got one over an "opportunist", all anyone sees is "corrupt socialist defeated by News of the World". Can you really not see that? For all the outrage of the "principled" left, nobody even knows they exist FFS. Their role is only ever to be used by more intelligent right-wingers, and then discarded with. I don't say they did it on purpose, I just think they're textbook useful idiots.
There is a significant element of truth in this.

Jolly Red Giant

27th December 2010, 18:34

would Alan McCombes really have set up a charade of getting himself sent to prison merely as a round-about way of getting one up on Sheridan? I don't think so.
Yet this is precisely what McCoombes did - McCoombes went to the Scottish Herald and swore out an affidavit attesting to the fact that Sheridan admitted at the SSP Executive meeting to going to Cupids. He then went to the following Executive meeting and put forward the 'defiance' strategy to hand over internal SSP documents AFTER he had already given them to the Scottish Herald. So I would pose this question to you - why did McCoombes make such a big deal about going to jail after he had already given the exact same documents to the media?

The SSP might not be my political cup-of-tea, but they're certainly not key players in a giant conspiracy involving MI5 and Rupert Murdoch.
Was there a conspiracy? who knows and to be honest its an irrelevent question. The NotW were clearly licking their lips at the prospect of turning over Sheridan. When they lost the libel trial it is clear that they were instrumental in ensuring the state would go after Sheridan on criminal charges. And right throughout both legal cases the leadership of the SSP were walking with them hand-in-hand, first by testifying for the NotW in the libel case, then running to the cops with the 'minutes', then selling the 'taped confession' to the NotW (and McNeilage has claimed with the knowledge of the leadership of the SSP - something they have not denied) and finally in testifying for the state in the criminal trial. Furthermore, many of them were forced to admit that they gave misleading evidence in the libel trial and some were also caught out in giving misleading information to the cops and to the criminal trial.

Sheridan is a politically-underdeveloped shyster (I'll leave this be just now, but I could quite happily write screeds on all his purely political misdemeanours) who used the Socialist movement as a vehicle for his own self-promotion
No one would suggest that Sheridan is blameless in this entire debacle. However, the SSP leadership, and yourself, argue that Sheridan was a mere figurehead and McCoombes and others were the brains behind the SSP. If this is the case why was McCoombes so bloody stupid to actually discuss the NotW article at the SSP executive meeting? A dog with a mallet up its rear-end would have realised that by discussing the issue at the meeting it would inevitably blow up in their faces.

I've heard comrades, particularly those from the CWI and the SWP, go to great pains to suppress their own mental faculties to promote the Sheridan line, and I pity them greatly.
I can't speak for the SWP, but the CWI had no illusions in what Sheridan was and was not capable of - remember Sheridan was a member of the CWI and Sheridan split from the CWI when he help found the SSP. The CWI know Sheridan far better than most other left activists. The CWI did not promote the 'Sheridan line' - the CWI argued their own independent position on this and all other issues. Specifically in this case, the CWI criticised the SSP leadership for discussing the NotW article, criticised the taking of minutes, opposed the 'defiance strategy' (which was a ruse as McCoombes actions have demonstrated), and argued that the actions of the SSP leadership would result in them being discredited as stooges of the NotW and the state - all of which has been proved correct.

I've been told by one SWP-er that a good proportion of his comrades know fine and well Tommy is guilty, but are under strict orders to hold the Party line in public. That said, I can't remember the last time I saw the SWP proclaiming their membership of Solidarity in the streets.
In political terms Sheridan's guilt in a capitalist court after the debacle of the past 4 years is pretty much irrelevent. The SSP has imploded, Solidarity is also probably on its last legs as well. The cause of socialism in Scotland has been set back to a considerable extent.

However, the blame for this must lie mostly with the SSP leadership. The SSP were definitely going to suffer from the NotW article. But if Sheridan had not taken the libel case against them it is very likely that the NotW would have continued to publish 'exposés' of his private life which would have continued the drip, drip impact on the SSP. The SSP leadership should have refused to discuss it, not recorded any 'minutes', not run off to the Scottish Herald, not got involved in the 'defiance strategy', not run to the cops after the libel trial, not got involved in selling the 'confession tape' to the NotW and not testified in either case. In such circumstances there could have been the possibility of saving much of what existed in the SSP. By doing the opposite they created the circumstances for their own demise and Sheridan's likely imprisonment.

I don't want to see Tommy Sherdian go to jail
Too late for that.

I want him apologise for what he's put his comrades, both former and present, through. I want him never to darken the doorway of the Socialist movement in this country again.
To be honest - the leadership of the SSP brought most of this on themselves - once the NotW publised the article about Sheridan it was inevitable that he was going to sue. By discussing it at the SSP executive and recording 'minutes' they created a situation that they were going to be dragged into this on the side of the NotW and the state. It does raise a question about the level of their political incompetence in ending up in the situation they are now in - and whether they were ever capable of building a mass left force in Scotland.

Nobody reading the press sees that it was the SSP that got one over an "opportunist", all anyone sees is "corrupt socialist defeated by News of the World". Can you really not see that? For all the outrage of the "principled" left, nobody even knows they exist FFS. Their role is only ever to be used by more intelligent right-wingers, and then discarded with. I don't say they did it on purpose, I just think they're textbook useful idiots.
There is a significant element of truth in this.

Fabrizio

27th December 2010, 19:03

Erm, no:

FQpwpAZHfow

Fair enough, I wasn't living in Britain at the time.

Die Neue Zeit

28th December 2010, 06:17

In political terms Sheridan's guilt in a capitalist court after the debacle of the past 4 years is pretty much irrelevent. The SSP has imploded, Solidarity is also probably on its last legs as well. The cause of socialism in Scotland has been set back to a considerable extent.

The only significant force for left politics in the British Isles ATM is Sinn Fein.

Aurora

28th December 2010, 07:42

Thanks for all the info in this thread comrades i didnt follow the first trial and im glad i now know a bit about it.

The only significant force for left politics in the British Isles ATM is Sinn Fein.
Um what? :laugh:

Die Neue Zeit

28th December 2010, 07:48

Um what? :laugh:

ATM = at the moment

Sinn Fein and the Socialist Party of Ireland, but more the former than the latter, are affiliated with the European United Left in the European Parliament (Die Linke, Fronte de Gauche, Left Bloc, SYRIZA, etc.).

Aurora

28th December 2010, 08:23

Die Neue Zeit

28th December 2010, 08:24

Iraultzaile Ezkerreko

28th December 2010, 08:45

The SSY article seems childish. I mean, it's a perfect example of ad hominem attacks and the ridiculous personal sectarianism of the left.

Devrim

28th December 2010, 09:12

Die Linke is in cuts-cuts-cuts coalition governments in Berlin and Brandenburg, yet the consensus is that it is a bourgeois workers party and not a neoliberal party like the SPD. Why should Sinn Fein be treated differently?

The consensus amongst whom? I would think that all parties participating in 'cuts-cuts-cuts' governments are anti-working class. How different people choose to classify them is up to them. Personally if we need a technical term, I would use the term bourgeoise.

Devrim

Wanted Man

28th December 2010, 09:44

The consensus amongst whom?

Why, the consensus between Die Neue Zeit, Die Neue Zeit, and, um... Die Neue Zeit?

Die Neue Zeit

28th December 2010, 17:34

Not at all. That is the consensus among all left groups doing work inside Die Linke.

Devrim

28th December 2010, 18:26

Not at all. That is the consensus among all left groups doing work inside Die Linke.

The basic inanity of this post is staggering. Groups that do entry work inside these sort of parties charecterise them as 'bourgeois-workers' parties'. Of course there are many groups in Germany who don't charecterise them that way, but of course they don't do work within Die Linke.

So what Jacob is saying is that it is the consensus position of all those who hold that position and none of those who don't, which is pretty meaningless.

It is the equivalent of saying the consensus that Manchester United is the favourite team of football fans who support Manchester United.

Devrim

Die Neue Zeit

28th December 2010, 18:37

The basic inanity of this post is staggering. Groups that do entry work inside these sort of parties charecterise them as 'bourgeois-workers' parties'. Of course there are many groups in Germany who don't charecterise them that way, but of course they don't do work within Die Linke.

Why are you asking me to address those groups not doing political work within Die Linke?

I was making a comparison with Die Linke so that judgmentalists on the left can give Sinn Fein a second look.

As you know, the term "bourgeois workers party" comes from Engels and was used by Lenin. It is not a proletarian party, but it is a party formed by workers (either through tred-iunion maneuverings or through independent mavericks).

Devrim

28th December 2010, 19:28

Why are you asking me to address those groups not doing political work within Die Linke?

I am not. I am just mocking your use of the word consensus, which is in the context you use it, completely meaningless.

Devrim

Palingenisis

28th December 2010, 19:35

ATM = at the moment

Sinn Fein and the Socialist Party of Ireland, but more the former than the latter, are affiliated with the European United Left in the European Parliament (Die Linke, Fronte de Gauche, Left Bloc, SYRIZA, etc.).

Provisional Sinn Fein are radical Social Democrats, they arent Socialists as such and the socialist core in them in Dublin left a while ago now to found Eirigi. They do though have a solid base of support in a lot of working class areas while the SP is basically based around the (weird to mind) personal appeal of Joe Higgins. Also the political quality of PSF voters greatly varies depending on where you go.

Palingenisis

28th December 2010, 19:39

Aye but Sinn Fein are administering the austerity measures in the north and are part of the capitalist government, they lined themselves up with capital along time ago also as Sinn Fein are based only in Ireland and not Scotland Wales or England i fail to see how they are a significant force in the British Isles as a whole.
Anyway this is all off topic i apologise to the OP

Provisional Sinn Fein have very little power in the northern assembly...They are basically there to stop the occupied north slipping back to the bad old days of Stormount Mark I. I think their stratergy, if it can even be called that now, is flawed to say the least but Im really sick of Socialist Party hypocracy on this seeing that they were a part of the Labour Party in England when it was in power oppressing the working class around the globe in circumstances a lot less justifable than the Provies now....So please less of your hypocracy.

Die Neue Zeit

28th December 2010, 20:19

Please let me know when Eirigi affiliates with the GUE-NGL. Otherwise, Eirigi should do entry work in Sinn Fein, especially when it comes to Euro elections.

Palingenisis

28th December 2010, 20:37

Please let me know when Eirigi affiliates with the GUE-NGL. Otherwise, Eirigi should do entry work in Sinn Fein, especially when it comes to Euro elections.

"Entry work" which is something anyway I dislike is pretty impossible in Provisional Sinn Fein because of the authoritarian nature of its set up (though there are cracks in it...Im thinking between Ferris and his base in Kerry which is more radical and the northern leadership). The 32 county sovereignity movement which tried to establish itself as a faction within PSF was thrown out...Im pretty sure but not certain that the same happened to Eirigi.

Palingenisis

28th December 2010, 20:43

Also PSF have a habit of picking middle class candidates over tried and trusted working class ones...Im thinking of the awful Mary Lou Mc Donald and Killian Forde a smug middle class asshole if ever there was one who went over to the Labour Party and than attacked PSF of following the "failed" idealogy of Marxism (if only!). They have alienated very decent and dedicated working class people like Christy Burke out of the party in order to win "respectability" in the face of an extremely snobby media which hates them because they are seen as a "knackers" party.

Palingenisis

28th December 2010, 20:46

They have good people in them and a lot of good voters for them but ultimately PSF offer the working a winding road away from the workers' republic.

Gravedigger01

29th December 2010, 01:36

Getting back on topic how long do people think he will get?How will scottish left do in upcoming election?

Magdalen

29th December 2010, 01:41

Getting back on topic how long do people think he will get?How will scottish left do in upcoming election?

George Galloway (if you can call him 'Left') will probably scrape into the Parliament if he runs on the Glasgow Regional List like he's intending to. Other than that, things look fairly bleak from a purely electoral perspective.

Gravedigger01

29th December 2010, 03:23

I was also wondering what is happening in community campaigns?Is there any unity at all or do both parties organise seperate campaigns?

Sam_b

30th December 2010, 12:35

I still have friends in the SSY and SSP and several SSY comrades joined us at the Glasgow Uni occupation. I regarded them as an asset there and worked tirelessly for the success of the couple of days around it in Glasgow.

ed miliband

4th January 2011, 16:32

Some of you won't like this one:

http://thecommune.co.uk/2011/01/03/the-sheridan-perjury-trial/

Palingenisis

4th January 2011, 16:38

Some of you won't like this one:

http://thecommune.co.uk/2011/01/03/the-sheridan-perjury-trial/

Its bang on the money though...

"Sheridan pulls the populists and the CWI and SWP behind his strategy of deceit, and his calls for members to sacrifice themselves for the ‘great leader’".

Rooster

4th January 2011, 17:10

What a bunch of horrible ugly little middle class snobs they are.

:)

Careful, they might sue you for libel!

Rooster

4th January 2011, 17:23

I was also wondering what is happening in community campaigns?Is there any unity at all or do both parties organise seperate campaigns?

As far as I remember, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, Solidarity and the SSP do not campaign in the same areas during election time. Although, they do both campaign against the Communist Party.

I expect the left parties won't do as well in the next elections here at all. Maybe a couple of council seats. I expect the SNP will do well.

Jolly Red Giant

4th January 2011, 17:23

Its bang on the money though...
It reads more like a NotW article than anything else

"Sheridan pulls the populists and the CWI and SWP behind his strategy of deceit, and his calls for members to sacrifice themselves for the ‘great leader’".

The last time I looked the CWI weren't Stalinist with an overriding admiration for the 'boss'.

ed miliband

4th January 2011, 17:27

It reads more like a NotW article than anything else

Yeah, not really.

Jolly Red Giant

4th January 2011, 17:31

Getting back on topic how long do people think he will get?
5 years

How will scottish left do in upcoming election?
Shite - Galloway has an outside chance - no other candidate will be remotely at the races.

On the issue of an appeal by Sheridan -there are rumours that Sheridan is considering taking further legal action against the NotW and against the Met - as outlined by a poster on James Doleman's blog -

Sheridan was targeted by NOTW agents. That is proven by the testimony of the NOTW and the diaries of Mulcaire released in this trial.

Sheridan has now for the first time got senior people from the NOTW on oath in court denying all knowledge of any illegal acts in relation to phone tapping etc.

Well done to Tommy for eliciting that evidence and testimony on oath. It was an important first step. The net can now start to be closed on the NOTW.

Whether any criminal and civil laws were breached in the targeting of him and others is now the main issue.

The Met police do not want to look at it obviously so the civil actions are moving forward.

Some celebrity targets have and will bring such actions and settle out of court.

Sheridan is now therefore in a position (perhaps uniquely) of any of the main NOTW targets. He is effectively compelled by his dire current predicament to pursue this matter to a conclusion.

He therefore has no interest as some celebrties may in an out of court finacial settlement from the NOTW. He needs his day in court against the NOTW if you like.

If full exposure and disclosure in that civil process (from Mulcaire etc) could possibly secure the grounds for an appeal in this matter it probably cannot be passed up by him.

NB: The Royals were a different kettle of fish and there were two jalings of 2 NOTW agents for the targeting of them.

So from reports it seems that Sheridan is going to go down that legal route and not go quietly.

The reports in the press are of:

- a class action (with Sheridan as a main party) being entered in London against the Met and the NOTW.

- Tom Watson MP quoted as saying he has referred the NOTW to the ICO for a full investigation into the "loss" of the Sheridan case emails.

It may be that, at the end of the day, the NOTW and its agents may still find cause to rue the day they targeted Tommy.

Jolly Red Giant

2nd February 2011, 17:02

Ineresting development over the weekend -

During the course of the Sheridan Trial, Tommy Sheridan questioned News of the World Scottish editor, Bob Bird, about a large number of emails related to the events around both the libel trial and the perqury trial. Bob Bird claimed under cross examination that the emails had been 'lost' during a botched data transfer from London to a new data storage facility in Mumbai.

However, The Independent is now reporting that these 'lost' emails have been found -

The Independent has established that not only is the database intact but it apparently contains a full record of email traffic between the company's senior staff.

The article continues -

in a letter to the Information Commissioner's Office, lawyers at News International's Wapping headquarters told the ICO's investigation team that it had archived emails and that none had been transferred to India.

As well as confirming the presence of a potentially vast data store, the disclosure – confirmed by the newspaper group to The Independent – has other potentially serious consequences.

Mr Sheridan's team is expected to use the disclosure as part of an appeal against Mr Sheridan's conviction for lying on oath in his earlier defamation case against the NOTW which led to him being jailed for three years.

Secondly, if, as expected the ICO confirms News International is telling the truth, it could forward the transcript of Mr Bird's testimony and its inquiry to its lawyers who will decide whether "in the public interest" to contact other prosecuting authorities.
A source at News International said Mr Bird had unintentionally given the court inaccurate evidence, but insisted the defence team had received all the relevant documents. In a brief official statement, the news group said: "Like many companies, we have an email archiving system in place." Mr Bird, who joined News International in 2000, did not respond to a request for comment.

Aamer Anwar, Sheridan's solicitor, said: "This is unacceptable. We were told repeatedly by Mr Bird in these proceedings that this material was lost in Mumbai. Now we are told it is in the UK. My client would not accept an explanation that there was a misunderstanding. We will look closely at any response from News International and are considering a complaint to the police and the Crown Office. If there is evidence information was intentionally not supplied we would expect criminal proceedings."

Labour MP Tom Watson, who has campaigned for a new police force to look into hacking, said: "If the jury in the Sheridan trial was misled then there should be an urgent review of the case. This week the Prime Minister told the Commons that the inquiry should 'follow the evidence wherever it leads'. We now know it leads to a data warehouse in London containing all News International emails from 2005 onwards."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/news-international-finds-lost-emails-that-could-provide-evidence-in-phonehacking-case-2198996.html