Where is the line where opposition to Political Islam crosses over into Islamophobia?

[Palingenisis]

I would be interested in hearing everyone's opinion on this.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Devrim.

j/k

Generally, on the lips of Westerners I kind of automatically consider it islamophobia. Just by the nature of Western discourse about/with Political Islam in the last decade, I kind of find that shit suspect.

Now, I'm not necessarily FOR Political Islam, but hearing Westerners go on about "fundamentalist threats" regardless of their political orientation is pretty suspect.

[Hit The North]

There is no line. It is always ok to oppose political Islam.

Islamophobia is a form of racism which uses political Islam (or, at least, its terrorist manifestation) as a justification for prejudice against Islamic people, irrespective of their political beliefs.

[Robocommie]

Yeah, I would have to say that a western criticism of political Islam runs that risk of colluding with imperialist discourse, in the exact same way that any white man in America who criticizes African-American politics in the US runs the risk of colluding with white supremacy and racist discourse. Maybe it's not fair but it's exactly how it is because of history and circumstance.

[Queercommie Girl]

To be frank, the problem is not directly to do with Islamophobia, but the fact that certain forms of opposition towards Islam always tends to become in practice a form of racism towards workers who are also Muslims.

In the abstract sense, suppose hypothetically no worker is actually a Muslim, then it's not actually wrong to be anti-Islamic. Anti-Islam is only wrong as a by-product of racism towards workers who also happen to be Muslim. I mean, there is nothing for socialists to defend in the Islamic religion itself, other than its practical link with certain sections of the working class in current reality.

[Hit The North]

Yeah, I would have to say that a western criticism of political Islam runs that risk of colluding with imperialist discourse, in the exact same way that any white man in America who criticizes African-American politics in the US runs the risk of colluding with white supremacy and racist discourse. Maybe it's not fair but it's exactly how it is because of history and circumstance.

Nevertheless, communists of whatever religious belief, whatever ethnicity, should be resolute about critiquing political agendas like Political Islam or Black Nationalism which promises liberation but leads workers into an impasse.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Nevertheless, communists of whatever religious belief, whatever ethnicity, should be resolute about critiquing political agendas like Political Islam or Black Nationalism which promises liberation but leads workers into an impasse.

Yeah because there couldn't be any kind of racism or imperialism going on in "communist" (loosely, LeftCom) thought that would see political Islam or Black nationalism as unacceptable rather than a broader base of support against capital.

[Robocommie]

Nevertheless, communists of whatever religious belief, whatever ethnicity, should be resolute about critiquing political agendas like Political Islam or Black Nationalism which promises liberation but leads workers into an impasse.

I question that. If you're not mindful of the way in which your criticism assists the most dominant voice in a discourse, you quite frankly set yourself up as a useful idiot. And I'm not going to agree that there can't be anything socially positive about black nationalism. It's all well and good to say that workers are workers regardless of the color of their skin, but if you don't appreciate the need for the Black Is Beautiful movement then you're just completely oblivious to a rather important aspect of social progress.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I question that. If you're not mindful of the way in which your criticism assists the most dominant voice in a discourse, you quite frankly set yourself up as a useful idiot.

A Black Man is just a Colorless Worker.

[Amphictyonis]

Personally I don't pussy foot around the issue. I don't discriminate in my dislike of religion be they Mormons, Muslims, Jewish, Christian or Scientologists. I am smart enough though to separate my dislike for religious fundamentalists and support for oppressed peoples.

Marx (and again this may piss some people off) saw the bourgeois enlightenment as a necessary step towards socialism. The middle east hasn't had a period of 'enlightenment' (meaning a shift from religious based to 'rational' thinking') nor has the region, as a whole, been through the advanced stages of capitalism.

It may sound reactionary (to some people) but if Marx were alive today I think he may very well advocate the westernization of the middle east as a necessary step towards socialism. A sort of 'enlightenment' in the same manner the west began to be less dogmatic.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Personally I don't pussy foot around the issue. I don't discriminate in my dislike of religion be they Mormons, Muslims, Jewish, Christian or Scientologists. I am smart enough though to separate my dislike for religious fundamentalists and support for oppressed peoples.

Marx (and again this may piss some people off) saw the bourgeois enlightenment as a necessary step towards socialism. The middle east hasn't had a period of 'enlightenment' (meaning a shift from religious based to 'rational' thinking') nor has the region, as a whole, been through the advanced stages of capitalism.

It may sound reactionary (to some people) but if Marx were alive today I think he may very well advocate the westernization of the middle east as a necessary step towards socialism.

I don't think you've read Marx very clearly. You're taking an incredibly telelogical reading of Marx (""Viewed apart from real history, these abstractions have in themselves no value whatsoever. They can only serve to facilitate the arrangement of historical material, to indicate the dequence of separate strata. But they by no means afford a recipe or schema, as does philosophy, for neatly trimming the epochs of history") to excuse your disgusting, reactionary views.

[Jazzhands]

When Political Islam becomes more of a threat in a person's eyes than political Christianity or Judaism, or pretty much any other religion, that becomes Islamophobia. Political Islam is an excuse for racism. Those who are anti-Islamic to the point where it actually becomes a bigger issue than other religions do so for racist or bigoted reasons, because they usually have no problem with Israel's treatment of Palestinians or other anti-Islamic bigotry.

Political religion in general is a threat to the working class, because it builds false consciousness, repression against the working class, and a host of other problems. But singling out one religion is not justifiable, it's just bigotry that serves to divide working people and prevent the realization of a class revolution through class infighting.

[Amphictyonis]

I don't think you've read Marx very clearly. You're taking an incredibly telelogical reading of Marx (""Viewed apart from real history, these abstractions have in themselves no value whatsoever. They can only serve to facilitate the arrangement of historical material, to indicate the dequence of separate strata. But they by no means afford a recipe or schema, as does philosophy, for neatly trimming the epochs of history") to excuse your disgusting, reactionary views.

LOL. If you think Marx saw the bourgeois 'enlightenment' as detrimental to human progress you need to put that bible down and pick up A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy for starters. Do you understand the materialist conception of history? Obviously the bourgeois revolution isn't the "end of history' as they would want us to think but it was a necessary link in the chain of progression towards socialism.

Do you think humanity could go from feudalism straight to socialism? Hell, without the enlightenment what would science look like today (the world would still be flat and earth the center of the universe)? Would we even have the industrial means of production? And there's NOTHING reactionary about opposing organized religion. I wish I had your faith but I also wish your church didn't exist.

By the way, my father was a Baptist Rev so my anti church stance has been fed since birth. I rejected Christianity at 12 years of age. Organized religion is a hierarchical confidence trick.

[Palingenisis]

Nevertheless, communists of whatever religious belief, whatever ethnicity, should be resolute about critiquing political agendas like Political Islam or Black Nationalism which promises liberation but leads workers into an impasse.

There is black nationalism and black nationalism as Huey Newton pointed out. I definitely support the for want of a better word Black Republican-Socialism of Harry Haywood and the Black Panther Party....But I have NO love for the reactionary waffle of the "Nation of Islam". The New Black Panther Party Im still unsure of.

[Hit The North]

Yeah because there couldn't be any kind of racism or imperialism going on in "communist" (loosely, LeftCom) thought that would see political Islam or Black nationalism as unacceptable rather than a broader base of support against capital.

More to the point, I hope you're not suggesting that it is impossible that political Islam or Black Nationalism may contain anti-worker and even pro-Bourgeois sentiments? Or that the interests of African-American or Islamic workers can be satisfied by promoting black businesses or returning to some medieval Caliphate?


Originally posted by robocommie
I question that. If you're not mindful of the way in which your criticism assists the most dominant voice in a discourse, you quite frankly set yourself up as a useful idiot.Of course we should be mindful and our critique must be attenuated by the constellation of forces we operate in. Nevertheless, as communists we are in the business of promoting workers power and the widest and deepest solidarity between all workers in order to achieve that end. We should never be willing to sacrifice out independence in order to win friends who, in the long run, we would find it impossible to live with.

We might offer oppressed groups unconditional support but it should never be uncritical.

[Robocommie]

More to the point, I hope you're not suggesting that it is impossible that political Islam or Black Nationalism may contain anti-worker and even pro-Bourgeois sentiments? Or that the interests of African-American or Islamic workers can be satisfied by promoting black businesses or returning to some medieval Caliphate?

Man, right, cause Booker T. Washington was the only black nationalist and political Islam is ONLY what CNN says it is.

[L.A.P.]

When you restrict the rights of people of Islam and not restrict those same rights for Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc.

[Hit The North]

Man, right, cause Booker T. Washington was the only black nationalist and political Islam is ONLY what CNN says it is.

Who says this? Not me! But if you think that Political Islam is in any way progressive and in the interest of workers then please elaborate.

[Devrim]

Devrim.

j/k

Generally, on the lips of Westerners I kind of automatically consider it islamophobia. Just by the nature of Western discourse about/with Political Islam in the last decade, I kind of find that shit suspect.

Now, I'm not necessarily FOR Political Islam, but hearing Westerners go on about "fundamentalist threats" regardless of their political orientation is pretty suspect.

I'm not sure why my name is at the start of this. I don't understand what 'j/k' means.

For us, at the moment there is undoubtedly a racist campaign going on in the West against people who come form South Asian/Middle Eastern/North African* backgrounds.

That does not mean that their isn't a danger in some countries from political Islam. Let's be very clear though; Despite the utterances of certain right-wing MPS in Sweden, there is absolutely no way that there is going to be a repeat of the 1979 Iranian revolution in Sweden.

Nor do I, or our organisation feel that this is a current danger in our country. We characterise the AKP as a 'Muslim Democratic Party', more akin to the European Christian Democratic Parties than some sort of radical Islamic group.

That said, obviously when workers express concern about the Islamicists wanting to 'turn Turkey into another Iran', it has to be approached in a different way than it would be in Europe.

I don't believe that every worker who expresses these sort of ideas in Europe is a racist although it is quite obvious that many of them, whatever their subjective intentions are, are following in the wake of the rights' agenda. In Turkey workers who express the same concern do so in a what is clearly a completely different context.

Of course communists in the West should endeavour to explain the way that this campaign is used, including all of its 'left' rhetoric about 'womens' rights' and 'secularism'.

If we want to look at a group that crossed the boundaries that the OP is asking about, we couldn't come up with a much worse example than the UK anarchist group Class War, who held a bonfire party in some park in East London where they burnt, what in my eyes, was an obviously racist effigy of Prophet Mohammed. We criticised this at the time.

If we were to do a similar thing in Turkey, obviously without the hooked nose, it would have a completely different context. Obviously we wouldn't as we don't have such a childish and simplistic view of religion and Islam, don't want to offend people for the sake of offending them**, and of course we would probably end up getting ourselves killed.

However, we feel that some of the Western left has taken a logical position of defending people from Muslim backgrounds to the point of defending Islam itself, and trying to argue that it has 'progressive' features. For us their is nothing about Islam that has any progressive role whatsoever.

I hope this makes our point of view on this issue clear.

Devrim

P.S. Maybe you should discuss this with Leo, as he is a direct descendent of Prophet Mohammed, so it is sort of all internal family business with him.:laugh:

*Delete according to the size of minorities in your own country.
** I drank a couple of beers in the pub tonight in the company of a Muslim friend, who unlike most people I know never drinks alcohol for religious reasons. We discussed many topics ranging from Shakespeare and Chaucer, to political economy, and a Marxist critique of Islam. He was quite happy sitting with me while I was drinking, and had a lot of interesting things to say about Marx and religion. Would I really want to do something like burning an effigy of the Prophet, which as far as I can see would do very little apart from offend somebody, who I quite like, deeply.

[gorillafuck]

I'm not sure why my name is at the start of this. I don't understand what 'j/k' means.
"Just kidding"

[brigadista]

There is black nationalism and black nationalism as Huey Newton pointed out. I definitely support the for want of a better word Black Republican-Socialism of Harry Haywood and the Black Panther Party....But I have NO love for the reactionary waffle of the "Nation of Islam". The New Black Panther Party Im still unsure of.



read this

http://www.blackpanther.org/newsalert.htm

[HEAD ICE]

P.S. Maybe you should discuss this with Leo, as he is a direct descendent of Prophet Mohammed, so it is sort of all internal family business with him.:laugh:



I know who is going to hell

[Palingenisis]

If we want to look at a group that crossed the boundaries that the OP is asking about, we couldn't come up with a much worse example than the UK anarchist group Class War, who held a bonfire party in some park in East London where they burnt, what in my eyes, was an obviously racist effigy of Prophet Mohammed. We criticised this at the time.

.

That surprises me because Class War have always been friends of Ireland to the point of being far to uncritical of Irish Republicanism. That is going way to far.