Who would you say is bigger in Europe?

[Delenda Carthago]

Who would you say is bigger in Europe,the revolutionary left(anarchists included)or the nazis?I was thinkin about this "nationale befreite zonen" in Germany and it seemed so stupid to me that the left let that shit excist...

Could they be a (real)threat for the future?

[Joe Payne]

The Nazi's are generally a minority compared to ANTIFA/anarchists by themselves at least in Germany, Sweden, Greece, Spain, and I would even say certainly in the US. I'm not sure about Fascism and Anarchism in Mexico, Canada, and the rest of Latin America, but I'm assuming them is generally a mixed bag.

I'd say in general there are more "socialists" than fascists without a doubt almost everywhere, with the obvious exceptions. Russia to name one example, but things seem to be growing more even there between the ANTIFA elements and Nazis.

But other than that, I con't know.

[Stand Your Ground]

In Europe, I don't know for fact, but I would assume the left would be bigger considering WW2 and the Nazis bloody history, so I would think they wouldn't get too much sympathy.

[Dire Helix]

In Europe, I don't know for fact, but I would assume the left would be bigger considering WW2 and the Nazis bloody history, so I would think they wouldn't get too much sympathy.

Has nothing to do with history and all to do with current social conditions. The far right in Russia and Eastern Europe considerably outnumber the far left. If a fight ensued tomorrow between the two, the former would come out on top no question.

[Jazzhands]

The left is larger generally everywhere in Europe except for some countries in the former Eastern Bloc. Did you know Latvia has a holiday commemorating a Waffen SS unit? It's called Latvian Legion Day, and it's fucking sickening. Poland is filled with far-right and nationalists, even in the unions. I wouldn't call them fascists exactly, but they are pretty damn far to the right. Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland have banned the Hammer and Sickle and a bunch of other left symbols.

The former USSR is generally a mixed bag. In Ukraine, there is almost no left presence. Russia is pretty nostalgic for the most part, but the fascists there are vicious.

[Bilan]

The left is larger generally everywhere in Europe except for some countries in the former Eastern Bloc. Did you know Latvia has a holiday commemorating a Waffen SS unit? It's called Latvian Legion Day, and it's fucking sickening. Poland is filled with far-right and nationalists, even in the unions. I wouldn't call them fascists exactly, but they are pretty damn far to the right. Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland have banned the Hammer and Sickle and a bunch of other left symbols.

The former USSR is generally a mixed bag. In Ukraine, there is almost no left presence. Russia is pretty nostalgic for the most part, but the fascists there are vicious.

In 2000 Latvian government abolished the day as official commemoration day, however the day is still observed unofficially and has since evolved in political fight between leftist protesters and Latvian nationalists.[4] In 2005, counter-demonstration was dispersed by police, arresting tens of its participants[5]; the march itself was condemned by Simon Wiesenthal Center.[6] The Latvian government tried to bring situation under control by going so far that in 2006, not only the events planned by nationalist organizations were not approved, but the Freedom Monument was fenced, as it was announced by Riga City Council, for restoration, however this statement was later questioned, as politicians named various other reasons for the move and the enclosed area was much larger than needed for restoration, and the weather didn't seem appropriate for restoration.[7] The Freedom Monument is one of the most important symbols of Latvia, therefore the move caused discontent in general society. The government was criticized for being unable to ensure public safety and freedom of speech. Latvian mass media compared the actions of government officials with actions of Soviet officials in late 80s and reported that no other government before had fenced the monument for political reasons. It was also speculated that actual reason for actions of government was preparation for upcoming NATO Summit 2006 in Riga. The unapproved events took place despite the ban and 65 participants were arrested by Latvian police, reportedly among the participants were foreigners as well, two of the arrested participants were citizens of Estonia.[8] In 2006, the law provisions that called for approval to arrange gatherings were ruled out as unconstitutional[9]. On March 16, 2007, government mobilized the police force to guard neighborhood of the monument and the day went by relatively peacefully.[10] It should also be noted that the veterans' organizations Daugavas Vanagi and Latvijas Nacionālo karavīru biedrība have announced that they dissociate themselves from ultra-radicals who organize processons at the monument and advised patriotic Latvians to attend other events and help elderly veterans.[11] In 2008 the confrontation was limited to verbal arguments and insults.[12]

[bcbm]

I would even say certainly in the US

if you count explicitly nazi groups, maybe, but the far right is definitely bigger than the far left in the united states

[Devrim]

Who would you say is bigger in Europe,the revolutionary left(anarchists included)or the nazis?

The working class, by a long way. Maybe you are asking the wrong question.

Devrim

[Delenda Carthago]

The working class, by a long way. Maybe you are asking the wrong question.

Devrim
So it doesnt matter if a worker is a nazi,as long as they are worker?

[Devrim]

So it doesnt matter if a worker is a nazi,as long as they are worker?

No, that is not what I am saying. What I was trying to point out is that communist politics is based upon the struggle of the class, not upon left vs right gangs street fighting.

Devrim

[Delenda Carthago]

No, that is not what I am saying. What I was trying to point out is that communist politics is based upon the struggle of the class, not upon left vs right gangs street fighting.

Devrim
Yes and what I want to know is what type of politics are making an appeal to todays western workers,what is growing bigger,the hardcore capitalist ones or the revolutionaries.Do you have a problem with that?

[Devrim]

Yes and what I want to know is what type of politics are making an appeal to todays western workers,what is growing bigger,the hardcore capitalist ones or the revolutionaries.Do you have a problem with that?

Yes, but I think that both communists and Nazis are pretty insignificant today, and if one is 'growing' by tiny amounts it is not really that importnat.

Devrim

[Delenda Carthago]

Yes, but I think that both communists and Nazis are pretty insignificant today, and if one is 'growing' by tiny amounts it is not really that importnat.

Devrim

I agree.But,when it goes down to the streets,its fucked up to have areas where our ideas cannot be spread because of the nazis occupation-as I said in the begining,I was thinkin about these "nationale befreite zonen" that excist in Germany where the left cannot make a move.Specially you from all the people in here should know what I m talkin about...

[Devrim]

I agree.But,when it goes down to the streets,its fucked up to have areas where our ideas cannot be spread because of the nazis occupation-as I said in the begining,I was thinkin about these "nationale befreite zonen" that excist in Germany where the left cannot make a move.Specially you from all the people in here should know what I m talkin about...

I don't know. Do these sort of places really exist? We sent a couple of people to Germany to do public meetings earlier this year. They never mentioned anything like that. I have been to Germany twice in recent years and the only 'problem' I had was hearing one guy mutter 'Turken Raus' as he walked past us.

There are real problems with racism against Turks in Germany. There are racial attacks, and people get killed. Areas where the left can't go, I am not so sure about.

Devrim

[Omi]

These places definitely exist, though not without resistance from the left. But yeah, there are certain areas in which it is not safe to walk alone in the streets as leftist/immigrant.
We would be wise not to underestimate the physical power of the far right in certain areas.

There was a documentary on Dutch television about the biggest openly neo-nazi party in Holland, the NVU. Though insignificant, they are on very good terms with the German NPD. They regulairly speak on each others events and even help organize demonstrations together. So this documentary also interviewed some german nazis, who where very proud to talk about these gefreitene zones. Antifa from Germany confirm this. But, we are not powerless, there is tough resistance against this.

As for the OP, I think the OP just wanted a brief update on the status of the european antifa movement and the political realitys, which is perfectly fine I would think! Were an international website after all.

[Delenda Carthago]

I don't know. Do these sort of places really exist? We sent a couple of people to Germany to do public meetings earlier this year. They never mentioned anything like that. I have been to Germany twice in recent years and the only 'problem' I had was hearing one guy mutter 'Turken Raus' as he walked past us.

There are real problems with racism against Turks in Germany. There are racial attacks, and people get killed. Areas where the left can't go, I am not so sure about.

Devrim
I was talkin about areas that are controlled by the far right,not racism.As far as I know,the whole Turkey is a difficult area for the Left,and GW have a lot to do with it...

[Widerstand]

As said before, the far right is much bigger in Eastern Europe than in Western, and it outnumbers the far left there easily.

In the west, at least most regions in Germany and some other countries, it's the other way around. However, as Devrim said, anti-Turkish, and anti-Arab/anti-Muslim in general, attitudes are growing. Right populists like Sarrazin and Wilders are increasingly popular and find much resonance in the populace.


I agree.But,when it goes down to the streets,its fucked up to have areas where our ideas cannot be spread because of the nazis occupation-as I said in the begining,I was thinkin about these "nationale befreite zonen" that excist in Germany where the left cannot make a move.Specially you from all the people in here should know what I m talkin about...

Never heard of such a thing. I guess they'd be in the scarcely populated areas of East Germany?

[Devrim]

I was talkin about areas that are controlled by the far right,not racism.As far as I know,the whole Turkey is a difficult area for the Left,and GW have a lot to do with it...

Not really, no. In the big Turkish cities you wouldn't experience any problems with fascists at all, except in a few universities, which in my opinion is at least partially down to young people, on both sides, playing at gang warfare.

There have been a few instances of 'rightists' attacking leftists, notably in Trabzon, and people attacking Kurdish labourers, most notable in Cappadocia. To what extent the far right is involved in this isn't clear. Certainly during the last war in Iraq far right militants didn't get involved in attacks upon Kurds. After all why did they need to bother when others were doing it anyway.


These places definitely exist, though not without resistance from the left. But yeah, there are certain areas in which it is not safe to walk alone in the streets as leftist/immigrant.
We would be wise not to underestimate the physical power of the far right in certain areas.

Can you give a few examples of these sort of places in Holland, please?

Devrim

[Devrim]

Incidentally one of the areas in Turkey where it is very difficult for left groups to organise are the parts 'controlled' by the PKK, a group supported by many on this board.

Devrim

[Omi]

Can you give a few examples of these sort of places in Holland, please?

Devrim

I was talking about zones in Germany, actually. It was shown on a documentary on Dutch television, which sadly is in Dutch and I couldn't find it online. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. It talks about certain areas in the Ruhrgebied, an area in the West of Germany near the Dutch border. The documentary is from a few years back, so maybe it isn't very accurate on the present situation. I am searching for a good english source right now concerning the matter, will post it when I find it.

[edit] here is the link to the documentary, but sadly it is in Dutch so not many people will understand what's being said. The german nazis talk in german though.
http://tegenlicht.vpro.nl/afleveringen/2005-2006/voor-volk-en-vaderland.html [edit]

[Stand Your Ground]

Has nothing to do with history and all to do with current social conditions. The far right in Russia and Eastern Europe considerably outnumber the far left. If a fight ensued tomorrow between the two, the former would come out on top no question.
I disagree. If Nazis were to try to take over they would have alot more opposition than in the 30's & 40's. People would already know their goals and combat it as much as possible. I think Nazis have too many people they target to try to ever gain control. Even if most of their enemies are apolitical now, if a new war broke out and the Nazis were trying to get power the long list of people they hate would be ready to take up arms against them. At least IMO.

[Ravachol]

I was talking about zones in Germany, actually. It was shown on a documentary on Dutch television, which sadly is in Dutch and I couldn't find it online. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. It talks about certain areas in the Ruhrgebied, an area in the West of Germany near the Dutch border. The documentary is from a few years back, so maybe it isn't very accurate on the present situation.

Actually, it is. I spoke to some German antifascists some time ago who spoke about the situation in Dordtmund. Especially the area of Dortmund-Dorstfeld has been transformed into something of a 'national befreite zone' where a lot of fascists have emigrated to, slowly taking over the neighbourhood. A lot of the 'common' residents sympathise with them or the NPD and inform on leftists and their activities, making it VERY hard and dangerous to organise. You never know whether some shopkeeper, security guard, mall worker or anybody else is in positive contact with the fascist network. One day you're distributing flyers or organising workers, the next your house is assaulted.
The fascists gather there for demos, organising, speeches,parties,etc.
This obviously affects effective communist agitation and organising very negatively.

[Montag451]

What is the actual size and number of these zones?
Is it a couple of smaller neighbourhoods in whole germany or is it more serious?

[Omi]

I don't think the numbers of these zones are really big and are not widespread throughout Germany, but it does pose a problem for local antifa groups trying to organise around these areas. It just is a clear indication of what happens if fascists take over certain neighbourhoods and small city's. It is a direct threat to the organisational work of the left and specifically revolutionaries.