Tea Party forges links with EDL

[Garret]

English Defence League forges links with America's Tea Party

The English Defence League, a far-right grouping aimed at combating the "Islamification" of British cities, has developed strong links with the American Tea Party movement.

An Observer investigation has established that the EDL has made contact with anti-jihad groups within the Tea Party organisation and has invited a senior US rabbi and Tea Party activist to London this month. Rabbi Nachum Shifren, a regular speaker at Tea Party conventions, will speak about Sharia law and also discuss funding issues.

The league has also developed links with Pamela Geller, who was influential in the protests against plans to build an Islamic cultural centre near Ground Zero. Geller, darling of the Tea Party's growing anti-Islamic wing, is advocating an alliance with the EDL. The executive director of the Stop Islamisation of America organisation, she recently met EDL leaders in New York and has defended the group's actions, despite a recent violent march in Bradford.

Geller, who denies being anti-Muslim, said in one of her blogs: "I share the EDL's goals… We need to encourage rational, reasonable groups that oppose the Islamisation of the west."More info here:
guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/10/english-defence-league-tea-party

[RED DAVE]

just caught this one myself. It's fascinating that many of the US participants in this unholy alliance are Jews. I wonder how long before they figure out the EDL's ties to British fascists.

RED DAVE

[bricolage]

just caught this one myself. It's fascinating that many of the US participants in this unholy alliance are Jews. I wonder how long before they figure out the EDL's ties to British fascists.
The EDL have a 'Jewish division' and regularly join the Zionist Federation of joint counter-protests to BDS demonstrations. I don't think anti-semitism really has that much of a place in the mainstream far right anymore.

[RED DAVE]

The EDL have a 'Jewish division' and regularly join the Zionist Federation of joint counter-protests to BDS demonstrations. I don't think anti-semitism really has that much of a place in the mainstream far right anymore.Don't kid yourself. The British and American Right have antisemitism just under their skins. They'll hide it as long as they can, but when they need a theory to justify the lack of power of the "average working Joe," sooner or later, antisemitism will crop up.

Here it is, alive and well, in the EDL.

http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/the-tale-of-two-edlsupporters/

And let's not forget the Rick Sanchez thing in the US last week. I think it was Engels who said that antisemitism is "socialism for idiots."

RED DAVE

[Montag451]

Don't kid yourself. The British and American Right have antisemitism just under their skins. They'll hide it as long as they can, but when they need a theory to justify the lack of power of the "average working Joe," sooner or later, antisemitism will crop up.



Nope,it wont.
Muslim is the new Jew :thumbup1:

[Pretty Flaco]

And let's not forget the Rick Sanchez thing in the US last week. I think it was Engels who said that antisemitism is "socialism for idiots."

RED DAVE

Just wondering, but what did Rick Sanchez do?

and what exactly does that Engel's quote mean? I don't understand

[Montag451]

Antisemitism also has a declarative anticapitalist sentiment to it. Like saying "jews are evil bankers ruling the world"
It is in fact oversimplified and bastardized (and utterly wrong) version of socialism. It's easier to blame the j00z than to comprehend an international economical network and its subjects which is capitalism.

[gorillafuck]

and what exactly does that Engel's quote mean? I don't understandI've never seen the quote either, but I would assume it refers to how antisemites often use anti-capitalist rhetoric against Jews, like thinking that Jews run the banks.

[9]

Don't kid yourself.
I think you're the one kidding yourself, really.



And let's not forget the Rick Sanchez thing in the US last week.Yeah, I think the Rick Sanchez thing is a perfect example of the attitude toward anti-Semitism in 'the West', and in the US particularly. He was fired, after all. If he'd made a discriminatory comment about Muslims or blacks, for example, you wouldn't have seen a mention of it anywhere and he'd still have his job.
--

EDIT: For people outside of the US who have absolutely no idea who Rick Sanchez is (I'd never even heard of him until the recent 'fiasco' all over the news), he was an anchor on CNN who was fired the other week after making a comment on a talkshow that could be interpreted as vaguely anti-Semitic. He's basically been publicly humiliated as a result of his comment and will be lucky to ever live it down.

From wikipedia:

Firing from CNN

On September 30, 2010, Sanchez was interviewed on Sirius XM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius_XM_Radio)'s radio show Stand Up With Pete Dominick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_Up_With_Pete_Dominick). Sanchez's interview occurred on the final day of his show in the 8 p.m. time slot and he was reportedly angry about being replaced by CNN's new Parker Spitzer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Spitzer) talk show[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sanchez#cite_note-CBS-13)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sanchez#cite_note-msn-14) as well as the constant jokes made at his expense on The Daily Show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Show). Sanchez called Daily Show host Jon Stewart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Stewart) a "bigot"; after questioning, Sanchez backed down from using the term and referred to Stewart as "prejudicial" and "uninformed."[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sanchez#cite_note-15) When queried on the issue of whether Stewart likewise belonged to a minority group on account of his Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish) ethnicity, Sanchez responded,
"Yeah, very powerless people. [laughs] He's such a minority. I mean, you know, please. What—are you kidding? I'm telling you that everybody who runs CNN is a lot like Stewart, and a lot of people who run all the other networks are a lot like Stewart. And to imply that somehow they, the people in this country who are Jewish, are an oppressed minority?"[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sanchez#cite_note-CBS-13)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sanchez#cite_note-msn-14)Some media coverage suggested that Sanchez' comments insinuated that Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) controlled CNN and other networks.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sanchez#cite_note-CBS-13)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sanchez#cite_note-msn-14)
Sanchez also described his experiences and opinion of news network practices,
"It's not just the right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing) that does this. 'Cause I've known a lot of elite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_elitism), Northeast establishment liberals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_liberalism) that may not use this as a business model, but deep down, when they look at a guy like me, they look at a ... they see a guy automatically who belongs in the second tier and not the top tier ... White folks usually don't see it, but we do, those of us who are minorities ... Here, I'll give you my example, it's this, 'You know what, I don't want you anchoring anymore. I really don't see you as an anchor, I see you more as a reporter. I see you more as a John Quinones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Quinones).' You know, the guy on ABC. That's what he told me, he told me he saw me as John Quinones. Now, did he not realize that he was telling me, 'when I see you I think of Hispanic reporters?' 'Cause in his mind, I can't be an anchor, an anchor's what you give the high profile white guys."[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sanchez#cite_note-16)
In the day following his remarks,[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sanchez#cite_note-17) CNN announced that Sanchez was no longer employed with the company.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Sanchez#cite_note-CBS-13)

[Nolan]

Antisemitism also has a declarative anticapitalist sentiment to it. Like saying "jews are evil bankers ruling the world"
It is in fact oversimplified and bastardized (and utterly wrong) version of socialism. It's easier to blame the j00z than to comprehend an international economical network and its subjects which is capitalism.

Never, ever confuse right wing populism with anticapitalism. Any teabagger or paleocon will tell you they hate the wall street bankers.

[Montag451]

"Antisemitism also has a declarative anticapitalist sentiment to it"

[Devrim]

Don't kid yourself. The British and American Right have antisemitism just under their skins. They'll hide it as long as they can, but when they need a theory to justify the lack of power of the "average working Joe," sooner or later, antisemitism will crop up.

Whilst you may have a point about America, I don't think you are quite right about Britain. Basically anti-semtism doesn't really play to the 'native' British working class at all. I think that the main reason for this is that people don't really come into contact with 'Jews'. Apart form the Hassidic, who are confined to a very small area of North London (next to the Turks and Kurds actually), Jews are not really visible in the UK. Of the four Jewish people I know from when I lived in England (Of course people have kids, but I am not counting them separately), I didn't realise any of them were Jewish for quite a while into our friendship. To put it in context when comparing with the US, there are ten times as many Jews in New York as in the whole of the UK.

Basically the 'native' British working class today don't have any experience of Jews, and when added to the fact that anti-Semitism always had less resonance in the working class than in most European countries, means that it is virtually insignificant today.

Of course that doesn't mean there isn't anti-Semitism today in the UK. There is a reaction particularly from those from Islamic backgrounds to Israel, their are parts of the British bourgeoisie and aristocracy who really hate the Jews, and of course parts of the far right.

One of the problems that fascism in its 'neo-Nazi' form always had in Britain was that it is essentially very 'non-British'. To a certain extent British nationalism is still defined by the struggle against Germany in the Second World War. When the far right were 'parading around in their jack-boots' it was in fact alienating to the people they wanted to attract in that the common response was something along the lines of "My father/Grandfather fought against these people".


The EDL have a 'Jewish division' and regularly join the Zionist Federation of joint counter-protests to BDS demonstrations. I don't think anti-semitism really has that much of a place in the mainstream far right anymore.


Here it is, alive and well, in the EDL.

http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/2...edlsupporters/ (http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/the-tale-of-two-edlsupporters/)

As I said, it does exist in the far right. However, the BNP has been well served by its turn from 'neo-Nazism' to a more populist 'more British' type of nationalism/racism. It expresses support for Israel, and the very people who the anti-Semitism card would play to in the working class and petit-bourgeoisie are the very people who they are against.

Montag summed it up very clearly:


Nope,it wont.
Muslim is the new Jew :thumbup1:


Yeah, I think the Rick Sanchez thing is a perfect example of the attitude toward anti-Semitism in 'the West', and in the US particularly. He was fired, after all. If he'd made a discriminatory comment about Muslims or blacks, for example, you wouldn't have seen a mention of it anywhere and he'd still have his job.

I think in England it would be quite rare to make that sort of comment about Jews. If you made a similar comment about Blacks in the media you would find yourself out of a job, as Ron Atkinson discovered:


Ron Atkinson's media work came to an abrupt halt on 21 April 2004, when he was urged to resign from ITV by Brian Barwick after he broadcast a racial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) remark live on air about the black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_%28people%29) Chelsea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_F.C.) player Marcel Desailly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Desailly); believing the microphone to be switched off, he said, "...he [Desailly] is what is known in some schools as a lazy thick nigger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger_%28word%29)".[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Atkinson#cite_note-10) Although transmission in the UK had finished, the microphone gaffe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone_gaffe) meant that his comment was broadcast to various countries in the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East). He also left his job as a columnist for The Guardian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian) "by mutual agreement" as a result of the comment.

Devrim

[9]

The last bit you quoted was actually my comment rather than Red Dave's, by the way.





Originally Posted by Red Dave
Yeah, I think the Rick Sanchez thing is a perfect example of the attitude toward anti-Semitism in 'the West', and in the US particularly. He was fired, after all. If he'd made a discriminatory comment about Muslims or blacks, for example, you wouldn't have seen a mention of it anywhere and he'd still have his job.I think in England it would be quite rare to make that sort of comment about Jews. If you made a similar comment about Blacks in the media you would find yourself out of a job, as Ron Atkinson discovered:


Originally Posted by Wiki
Ron Atkinson's media work came to an abrupt halt on 21 April 2004, when he was urged to resign from ITV by Brian Barwick after he broadcast a racial (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) remark live on air about the black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_%28people%29) Chelsea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_F.C.) player Marcel Desailly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Desailly); believing the microphone to be switched off, he said, "...he [Desailly] is what is known in some schools as a lazy thick nigger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger_%28word%29)".[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Atkinson#cite_note-10) Although transmission in the UK had finished, the microphone gaffe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone_gaffe) meant that his comment was broadcast to various countries in the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East). He also left his job as a columnist for The Guardian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian) "by mutual agreement" as a result of the comment.

I don't think this comment is even remotely analogous to the one made by Sanchez, though. He didn't refer to Jews as "kykes" or "yids" or what have you - its not as though he used a racial epithet. While certainly his comment was questionable, and it was a stupid thing to say, whether or not it was actually anti-Semitic is debatable. Obviously there isn't any ambiguity in a racial slur.
In any case, its really not an important point of debate.

[Devrim]

The last bit you quoted was actually my comment rather than Red Dave's, by the way.
Edited.


I don't think this comment is even remotely analogous to the one made by Sanchez, though. He didn't refer to Jews as "kykes" or "yids" or what have you - its not as though he used a racial epithet. While certainly his comment was questionable, and it was a stupid thing to say, whether or not it was actually anti-Semitic is debatable. Obviously there isn't any ambiguity in a racial slur.
In any case, its really not an important point of debate.

No it isn't analogous. You are right.

Devrim

[Aesop]

The EDL have a 'Jewish division' and regularly join the Zionist Federation of joint counter-protests to BDS demonstrations. I don't think anti-semitism really has that much of a place in the mainstream far right anymore.

The EDl also has a 'LGBT' division, however i would be very surpised if the EDL members were anti-homophobic. The reason why they join the zionist demos is not because of their love for jewish people, but just to wind up 'muzzies' and 'red's and if lucky to get into a bit of scrap. Same reason why BNP/B&H members say they are anti-zionist not because of their love of palestine but they use it as a vehicle for anti-semitism.


In regards to the BNP, anti-semitism has not disappeared but is rather just on hold. For a long time it was jewish people who were at the front of his hatred, but now griffin and his lot know that they will not get anywhere with the electorate with their overt anti-semitism and blood and soil politics. So they have moved on to issues such as islam because there is more of a anti-asian current in the Uk at the moment.

So to say anti-semitism has no place in the Uk far-right politics is a little naive.

[Dean]

Nope,it wont.
Muslim is the new Jew :thumbup1:

I think in England it would be quite rare to make that sort of comment about Jews. If you made a similar comment about Blacks in the media you would find yourself out of a job, as Ron Atkinson discovered:
Devrim is absolutely right. For that matter, statements like "y is the new x" or "Jews aren't discriminated against anymore" suffer from two problems:
-comparisons between ethnic oppression belittle and objectify their oppression

-you'd have to compile a massive amount of data to prove that a widely-accepted oppressed group is no longer oppressed

There have been antisemitic attacks on synagogues recently (and as much as some of them like to point to the Israel-Pal conflict, their particular rhetoric and actions betray them).

It's just an incredibly dangerous path to ignore or take casually issues of ethnic oppression.

[IndependentCitizen]

Would it be far-fetched to believe this could be a case of Tea-Party funding them if the EDL ever were to become more militant?

[Devrim]

In regards to the BNP, anti-semitism has not disappeared but is rather just on hold. For a long time it was jewish people who were at the front of his hatred, but now griffin and his lot know that they will not get anywhere with the electorate with their overt anti-semitism and blood and soil politics. So they have moved on to issues such as islam because there is more of a anti-asian current in the Uk at the moment.

So to say anti-semitism has no place in the Uk far-right politics is a little naive.

I don't really agree. I think that anti-Semitism only shows itself of the fring of far right politics (which is a very small fringe in itself). Whilst Griffen and his ilk are absolutely in tune with the media when they talk about immigration or Muslims, they are not at all when they talk about anti-Semitism. They don't push it because it doesn't play in society.

Now, we can look at this in two ways. Either the BNP is are nasty bunch of anti-Semites, as well as being nasty racists in general who are just hiding it, or they are people who don't relate to that in anyway because anti-Semitism is not part of the nationalist agenda in Britain, and the younger ones without the base in 'neo-Nazism' wouldn't even see what they were going on about if they started attacking the Jews.

Basically if you live outside London, or maybe even North London, the chances are in Britain that you won't know any Jews, and if you do it will be one or two individuals. lets go back to a statistic I quoted before:


To put it in context when comparing with the US, there are ten times as many Jews in New York as in the whole of the UK.

There is no money for the far right in playing the 'anti-Semite card' in Britain because it doesn't resonate with anybody.

In Turkey I have seen racism against blacks. I can think of three examples, only. The first was an English footballer at a super league club whose Chairman called him a cannibal, which incidentally caused massive protests amongst the fans. The second was a personal friend from Nigeria who is married to a Turkish woman, speaks beautiful Turkish, and when after speaking to people about renting an apartment had turned up and been black, which obviously wasn't what they expected, the apartment 'had already gone', about twenty times in a row. The last was stopping to help some young Dutch tourists, one of whom was black, with directions, and walking along the street with him and hearing people say "Yamyama bak" (look at the cannibal). I am sure black people have experience much more in their lives.

If the nationalists in Turkey, who lets remember are seriously dangerous and make the vast majority of European and American fascists look like the Teddy bears picnic, dont go on about blacks, apart from perhaps a bit about black students in Istanbul, it is because it doesn't relate in any way to people lives. I travel around the city pretty much in my work, and would estimate that I see less than 10 black people a month, so few that I notice them, and think "Oh its a black person". Why would they go on about it?

I think anti-Semitism in Britain is pretty much the same.

Yes, there is an undercurrent of it amongst the far right with its roots in neo-Nazism, and yes there is a current of it amounst those from Islamic backgrounds. Apart from that it is not really a force within the English working class.

Devrim

[LebenIstKrieg]

guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/10/english-defence-league-tea-party Divide and conquer anyone?

[Aesop]

I don't really agree. I think that anti-Semitism only shows itself of the fring of far right politics (which is a very small fringe in itself). Whilst Griffen and his ilk are absolutely in tune with the media when they talk about immigration or Muslims, they are not at all when they talk about anti-Semitism. They don't push it because it doesn't play in society.

If you looked at my previous post, you would realise that what i stated was on similar lines to this. However the reason why they talk about immigration and Islam(which really is their code-word for 'asians') is because it is the issues which are pumped out by the mainstream right-wing media. The reason why they don't talk explictily about people who happen to be jewish(come to thing most ethnic minority groups) is because they find themselves in a climate where their blood and soil politics is laughable to your average joe on the street.
So yes they have changed their image, however their neo-nazi intent is still the same.



Now, we can look at this in two ways. Either the BNP is are nasty bunch of anti-Semites, as well as being nasty racists in general who are just hiding it, or they are people who don't relate to that in anyway because anti-Semitism is not part of the nationalist agenda in Britain, and the younger ones without the base in 'neo-Nazism' wouldn't even see what they were going on about if they started attacking the Jews.

Let's not forget nick griffin published a anti-semitic book called 'the rune' in addition within the last 8 months he praised the SS soldiers stating that they we defending europe from bolshevism.



There is no money for the far right in playing the 'anti-Semite card' in Britain because it doesn't resonate with anybody.

Don't take this the wrong way, but i feel that you fail to distinguish the differ between their image and their intent. Yes, playing the 'anti-semite card' is not useful at the moment however this does not mean that the organisation are not anti-semitic at heart(in regards to the BNP).

[Devrim]

So yes they have changed their image, however their neo-nazi intent is still the same.

I don't think this offers any real understanding of the far right in the UK today. Yes, some of their leader (and members) may have come out of neo-Nazism. The BNP in Britain today is not fundamentally a neo-Nazi party, and the extent to which it still is, is one of the things holding it back.

Neo-Nazism has never played well in Britain for historical reasons. For me going on about these people being neo-Nazis today first misunderstands them and the any real racist danger that may come from them, and second fails to understand where the really dangerous racist force in Britian today is not tiny fringe parties but the state.

Ask yourself a couple of questions. Who over the last twenty years has deported more immigrants, the state, run by the Labour party, or the BNP?

Which publication whips up more anti-immigrant feeling, 'The Sun' or the paper of the BNP*?


However the reason why they talk about immigration and Islam(which really is their code-word for 'asians') is because it is the issues which are pumped out by the mainstream right-wing media.

Certainly, this is true. If you watched Nick Griffen on question time you would have seen that all of the other parties representatives roundly condemned him, and then raced to see who could steal the most of the BNPs agenda on immigration. I bet he laughed all the way home.


The reason why they don't talk explictily about people who happen to be jewish(come to thing most ethnic minority groups) is because they find themselves in a climate where their blood and soil politics is laughable to your average joe on the street.

Which is basically what I was saying about anti-Semetism. It has no resonance within the English working class and never has done.


Don't take this the wrong way, but i feel that you fail to distinguish the differ between their image and their intent. Yes, playing the 'anti-semite card' is not useful at the moment however this does not mean that the organisation are not anti-semitic at heart(in regards to the BNP).

I don't think the BNP is a fascist danger. I think they are a tiny fringe force that gets much more attention from the media than they merit. I also don't believe that they have a deep secret nazi agenda, and will suddenly come out hating Jews. The next generation of BNP leaders will concentrate on hating Muslims as that is the prejudice that they and people around them have grown up with. Organisations change. The BNP of today isn't the BNP of old, and I think they are intelligent enough to realise that 'anti-Semitism' doesn't really play in England today.

Devrim

*I doubt many people even know what it is called, I don't

[Montag451]

Where oh where did i say that jews aren't discriminated against at all anymore?
By saying "muslim is the new jew" i meant that the new "global enemy" of the far right today is Islam rather then Judaism.
Why?
1) It's easier to pick on muslim immigrants then american/european people of jewish origin that are average citizens in every way
2)There are bigger cultural differences between americans and europeans on one side and muslims on the other. These differences are being exploited by the far right to create further divide.
3) Antisemitism has a historical stigma. However anti-islamism isn't such a taboo.
4) Jews are protected by many institutions and organisations, both govermental and ngo. Muslims don't have many organisations of this sort. The Left sides with them,but the muslims often refuse the left due to big ideological differences. The Left is still living in a PLO-mindframe. Islamic fundamentalism is unfortunately the dominant ideology of todays arabs

[9]

For that matter, statements like "y is the new x" or "Jews aren't discriminated against anymore" suffer from two problems:
-comparisons between ethnic oppression belittle and objectify their oppression

-you'd have to compile a massive amount of data to prove that a widely-accepted oppressed group is no longer oppressed

There have been antisemitic attacks on synagogues recently (and as much as some of them like to point to the Israel-Pal conflict, their particular rhetoric and actions betray them).

It's just an incredibly dangerous path to ignore or take casually issues of ethnic oppression.

Man, Jews are not oppressed in the US and UK in 2010; its simply the reality. Anti-Semitism has assumed this totally distorted, ahistorical character in the collective imagination, as if the oppression experienced by European Jews and Jewish immigrants during the first half of the 20th century is some sort of eternal constant, and as a result, Jews are perpetual victims.
I know it ruffles peoples' feathers to hear this, but its simply not the case.

To be clear, though: saying that American and British Jews are not socially oppressed - and they aren't - is not to say that there aren't individual instances of prejudice and bigotry; obviously there are.
However, 'oppression' denotes some form of systemic disempowerment or discrimination, and Jews in the US/UK are not subject to any form of systemic disempowerment or discrimination on the basis of being Jews.

Really, it's not the 1930's anymore.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think it was Engels who said that antisemitism is "socialism for idiots."

RED DAVE

I think that was Bebel, actually.

(It's weird that I know that.)

[progressive_lefty]

I'm not at all surprised..

[Aesop]

I don't think this offers any real understanding of the far right in the UK today.

Depends who you are talking about when your talking about the far-right.


Yes, some of their leader (and members) may have come out of neo-Nazism.

No their top cadres of the BNP are neo-nazis, maybe not the nazis of the 30's and 40's but nevertheless neo-nazis.


The BNP in Britain today is not fundamentally a neo-Nazi party, and the extent to which it still is, is one of the things holding it back.

The BNP are a neo-nazi/white-nationalist organisation. The same way that the nazis sought to create a all 'aryan' nation, the BNP seeks to create a all 'white' nation. As i repeat the BNP are not the nazis of the 30's/40's, thats why they are referred to as neo-nazis.


Neo-Nazism has never played well in Britain for historical reasons.

I agree


For me going on about these people being neo-Nazis today first misunderstands them and the any real racist danger that may come from them, and second fails to understand where the really dangerous racist force in Britian today is not tiny fringe parties but the state.

Lets not try to move from the topic.



Ask yourself a couple of questions. Who over the last twenty years has deported more immigrants, the state, run by the Labour party, or the BNP?

http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies2/001_huh.gif I fail to see how this relates to if the BNP are a neo-nazi organisation.


Which publication whips up more anti-immigrant feeling, 'The Sun' or the paper of the BNP*?

You going on, as if i am unaware on how reactionary the sun newpaper is.




Certainly, this is true. If you watched Nick Griffen on question time you would have seen that all of the other parties representatives roundly condemned him, and then raced to see who could steal the most of the BNPs agenda on immigration. I bet he laughed all the way home.

I agree with your point on the other parties trying to compete on who is the toughest on immigration.




Which is basically what I was saying about anti-Semetism. It has no resonance within the English working class and never has done.

I agree that these days that anti-semetism is not major within the british working class, however this does not mean that the cadres of the BNP and the top layers are not anti-semitic.
In addition to say that anti-semitism never had a hold within some sections of the british working class, may only appear true if you read history with one eye open.
Of course anti-semitism in the UK historically has been minor in comparison to Germany, Russia, Hungary etc etc. But the early 20th century around the introduction of the alien act, also just post-war with a few british troops being killed in palestine their was a little bit of a anti-jewish sentiment which mosley was capturing on to an extent in london.



I don't think the BNP is a fascist danger. I think they are a tiny fringe force that gets much more attention from the media than they merit.

I agree, before the general election they would recieve 10 times as much more media coverage than the lib-dems who are the third largest party.


I also don't believe that they have a deep secret nazi agenda, and will suddenly come out hating Jews.

Not really a deep secret there is evidence in their history(recent) and their current connections that they are not the greatest fans of jewish people. Just do a little research and digging about the BNP and how it was created by a neo-nazi called John tydell a few decades ago who loved dressing up as a stormtropper. In addition to nick griffins publication 'the rune' and praising the Wafflen SS it is safe to say that it is not a deep secret.



The next generation of BNP leaders will concentrate on hating Muslims as that is the prejudice that they and people around them have grown up with.

Yes, they will concentrate on muslims. But concentrating on muslims and not having anti-semitism ingrained into their ideology are not mutually exclusive.



Organisations change.

Same thing that many BNP apologists say.


The BNP of today isn't the BNP of old, and I think they are intelligent enough to realise that 'anti-Semitism' doesn't really play in England today.

The reason why they don't talk explictily about people who happen to be jewish(come to thing most ethnic minority groups) is because they find themselves in a climate where their blood and soil politics is laughable to your average joe on the street.
There is a difference between appearence and intent, lets not forget that griffin had read mein kampf by the time he reached his late teens and stated that the propaganda part was of most use to him

Devrim

Aesop


*I doubt many people even know what it is called, I don't

I think it is called identity(i may be wrong), they copied the same title as the french FN paper.

[B0LSHEVIK]

Tea partiers make me sick. :crying: