PSL / WWP imbalance on RevLeft

[graymouser]

PSL seems like it's one of the biggest tendencies on RevLeft, indicating that people are here who are at least sympathetic to Sam Marcy's politics. But the same can't really be said for Workers World Party members, although WWP does have youth (I've met FIST people, I know). What's up with that?

Also out of curiousity for any PSLers who want to answer: why PSL and not WWP?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Why PSL and not WWP?
Well, i met the PSL personally at a demo, by accident really. I met up with them again and then did more work with them. I quickly joined though because of the experience i have had with PSLers on here. Also, i figured my sort of 'political development' was good enough to allow me to join them. this is a standard of my own though. i usually like to be sure of things before i commit to them.

As for the WWP, i have not met a single member of the WWP besides people like Gloria LaRiva and Richard Becker and some of the other current PSL members who were part of the WWP.

I also feel the PSL line is great and is a good application of Marxism-Leninism. I have not read works of Marcy's but i plan to in the future.

[graymouser]

I have not read works of Marcy's but i plan to in the future.
That's a bit surprising to me - I've never been in either party but I've read some of Marcy's work. Does the PSL push him forward as much as the WWP does? A local Workers World cadre pretty much got me to read High Tech Low Pay, which is a respectable analysis of the working class going into the '80s whatever you think of Marcy's politics otherwise.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The primary focus of the PSL is work, being active. Reading party lit is mostly for understanding the party line. and then reading capital is just if you want to haha.

I really want to read the Palestine book the PSL put out though.
And, we do carry copies of Marcy's books.


I do want to read a few works of his though. Im working on "How Europe Underdeveloped Africa" by Walter Rodney though.


EDIT: im sure most of the members who have been around for a year or so have read more party lit and marcy lit though. im still a candidate and i have been so for about 5-6 months lol.

[KC]

Like 5 members on here are PSL/WWP hacks. Hardly an imbalance. They're just the loudest and whiniest of the bunch.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Like 5 members on here are PSL/WWP hacks. Hardly an imbalance. They're just the loudest and whiniest of the bunch.I agree that I don't think there is a flood of members from these groups but this post was unwarranted and needlessly hostile. I was interested in what the comrades had to say about the differences between the groups.

[¿Que?]

In terms of marxist-leninists, the wwp is the only one I've ever come in contact with, and it was a very brief encounter at a demo in which I was offered a copy of Worker's World, and I told the lady I didn't have cash, but she let me have it anyway.

[Weezer]

Seriously, KC, why bother? Why waste your time here? I just like you if you are being serious, but you just a trollster.

...says a member of an Internet based party.

[Bright Banana Beard]

...says a member of an Internet based party. How do you know? :lol:

[Macera]

The primary focus of the PSL is work, being active. Reading party lit is mostly for understanding the party line. and then reading capital is just if you want to haha.

I really want to read the Palestine book the PSL put out though.
And, we do carry copies of Marcy's books.


I do want to read a few works of his though. Im working on "How Europe Underdeveloped Africa" by Walter Rodney though.


EDIT: im sure most of the members who have been around for a year or so have read more party lit and marcy lit though. im still a candidate and i have been so for about 5-6 months lol.


Sam Marcy was a great Revolutionary and put out a huge body of excellent work. But, I think the thing is that work, study and analysis are the best ways for revolutionaries to push the movement forward. But if you get rid of one of these aspects you lose out, I could read an study all day but if I don't do work within my class and see what works and doesn't work I will never be able to push the movement forward and really on a practical level understand anything Sam Marcy or any great revolutionary says. Does this mean I'm not able to read as much of him or any revolutionary as I would like, yes but as a result when I do read them I understand them on a more practical level. So even though Comrade No Vacancy has yet to read much of Sam Marcy I'm sure Sam Marcy would have a lot of respect for the work and study he is doing.

(On a seperate note I don't quite understand how the insults help this conversation)

[Chimurenga.]

I would think that the reason is that a good amount of the PSL's membership seems to be under the age of 30. Whereas, WW has a lot of older members who are trying to rebuild their party. An admirable task, I might add. I do wish WW had more members on here*.

We need more Marcyite's in here. :cool:


*edit

[graymouser]

I would think that the reason is that a good amount of the PSL's membership seems to be under the age of 30. Whereas, WW has a lot of older members who are trying to rebuild their party. An admirable task, I might add. I do wish WW had more members.

We need more Marcyite's in here. :cool:
Yeah, the PSL in Philly is much younger than the WWP, although Workers World is rebuilding its youth in FIST. I'm not a fan of how PSL has basically dropped in as ANSWER and basically acted as its own thing instead of working with the local antiwar coalition like Workers World does. It's probably quite a bit different in the places where the WWP cadres went with PSL, but here they stuck with the party and have built the IAC which has pretty consistently been a leading force in the local anti-imperialist movement.

I'm curious if any PSL members have read Fred Goldstein's Low-Wage Capitalism, which I am currently going through. I think it's an excellent follow-up to High Tech Low Pay, which I've always thought was Sam Marcy's best work.

[Kassad]

The PSL has more members on here than any other United States-based party I can think of. I think that's an important tool, as the internet is a means of reaching a lot of people you wouldn't normally reach. However, our work in the streets is why we're growing so rapidly and why we've been able to organize so efficiently while other groups have stood in the sidelines.

Graymouser, I've been meaning to get a hold of that book. I've heard it's great. Unfortunately for WWP, they have failed to recruit youth as of late and that's why their party is growing older and more inactive. It's a shame, in truth, as the party has many committed activists. I, for one, just don't think they have the resources or ability to lead the revolutionary socialist movement in the United States.

[Kassad]

Also, why is this in Chit-Chat? Moved to the Politics forum.

[Sam_b]

..says a member of an Internet based party.


Organisation: Pirate Party US

:unsure:

[Robocommie]

I'm a friend of the PSL, most of the Marxists I know in real life are PSL, and if I were to join a party it probably would be PSL. What can I say? They seem to be a pragmatic, no bullshit party.

[Raúl Duke]

Ehh...In terms of my relation with PSL members here it's hit or miss, some members are cool and others are whatever...I like the Marxist-Leninists (my favorite Marxists; these are Arizona Bay and Comrade Alastair, while I probably don't agree with their whatever I feel that they have their heart in a good place and they're pretty good and decent people too) from that New Zealand Worker's Party or whatever it's called.

[Chimurenga.]

I'm curious if any PSL members have read Fred Goldstein's Low-Wage Capitalism, which I am currently going through. I think it's an excellent follow-up to High Tech Low Pay, which I've always thought was Sam Marcy's best work.

I haven't yet. The lectures I've heard about it were good though. It's definitely on my list of books to buy.

[Hit The North]

I wouldn't even consider Sam Marcy to be a socialist. He's a state capitalist. His supporters should probably be in OI.

[28350]

PSL effectively took the momentum (and ANSWER) from WWP. WWP will probably never rebound. PSL has great initiatives (like seize BP). WWP has lots of sentimental value for me. PSL seems to be gathering lots of followers (which is good).

[Saorsa]

Ehh...In terms of my relation with PSL members here it's hit or miss, some members are cool and others are whatever...I like the Marxist-Leninists (my favorite Marxists; these are Arizona Bay and Comrade Alastair, while I probably don't agree with their whatever I feel that they have their heart in a good place and they're pretty good and decent people too) from that New Zealand Worker's Party or whatever it's called.

Comrade Alastair is dead. I have taken his place.

Feel free to say more nice things about him though, wherever he is now I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

One of the things i like the most about the PSL/WWP is the way they split. They didn't attack each other over the internet, they didn't feud and steal each others resources... in fact they all seem to be very friendly towards each other, almost apologetic for the split!

While at the time I was unsure about it, I've been convinced. I think this is an incredibly positive example about how to deal with differences between comrades and we can all learn a lot from it. I'd be interested to hear more about the work the WWP and the PSL do with each other and how relations between the members of the two groups are. How do you relate to each other in mass work situations like anti-war activism or workers rights campaigning?

I'd also be keen to learn more about the probationary membership period and how it works in practice. what is the reasoning behind it? How has it worked in practice? Do you think it has had any negative effects?

Also, a Workers Party of New Zealand comrade will be visiting the USA soon and attending the PSL conference. I'm sure she can sort things out herself pretty easily, but if anyone is interested in helping her out over there, giving her a couch to sleep on etc please PM me.

[Communist]

I don't wanna get ban for calling u a *****.
Have an infraction though. The word isn't permitted...
While I'm at it I shall clean this thread, realizing it was originally in Chit-Chat.

.

[graymouser]

One of the things i like the most about the PSL/WWP is the way they split. They didn't attack each other over the internet, they didn't feud and steal each others resources... in fact they all seem to be very friendly towards each other, almost apologetic for the split!
That's, ah, not the way I've heard it. For a lot of Workers World folks, they were suddenly locked out of ANSWER offices without an explanation. And there was a bit of feuding at the outset - the term "pissel" came up to describe the upstart party, at least at first.

More than that, there was no public explanation of the split. I've always agreed with James Cannon on this one; if you split an organization trying to lead the working class, you had better have a damn good reason, and you're obligated to explain the reason to the people you are trying to lead. If you want the trust of the working class, you must be able to be honest about the reason your party exists. The PSL failed on this, and I consider this a strike against them.


I'd also be keen to learn more about the probationary membership period and how it works in practice. what is the reasoning behind it? How has it worked in practice? Do you think it has had any negative effects?
I find the whole puzzlement over probationary membership in WWP and PSL a bit... puzzling. Plenty of groups, Workers Power included, ask members to go through a sort of trial period before being admitted as full members. It's for everyone's benefit, to make sure that they are a good fit in the organization and that membership works for them. Is that really an odd concept for folks?