Combating Anti-LGBT Bigotry

[Macera]

I just read an article on PSLweb titled, "Youth suicides caused by bullying and bigotry," it talks about a number of situations in which Young LGBT people we're harassed to the point of taking they're own lives, from Tyler Clementi the 18 year old at Rutgers University who jumped off the George Washington Bridge after his roommate posted footage online of an intimate moment between Tyler and another male student. It also included Asher Brown a 13-year who, "shot himself after harassment from his classmates became unbearable."

Now I'm sure most people on this website already are well informed on this issue, but when I read articles about this and I am reminded how pressing this issue is, class conscious people like ourselves really have the responsibility to stand up to this harassment in every situation it arises even when it makes us uncomfortable and might even alienate us.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

For LGBT youth, it's more than just from peers. It's adults, and in many cases, adults within our own families.

[Summerspeaker]

Yes, even supposedly gay-friendly folks can function as oppressors. Standing up to harassment and the ideas that facilitate harassment is essential but it isn't easy. Not when we're the minority, anyway. Networks of solidarity are key to enabling resistance.

[counterblast]

There is no such thing as suicides in cases like this, these people were murdered.

[Muzk]

HOLY WALL OF TEXT I SUMMON THEE
My humble opinion, and only my opinion. Pure experience right here! (Only about youth institutions)

I actually kind of "help" some person at my school through his hell. Took him out of annoying situations quite many times. Yet, I'm kind of chained by laws, they do torture him, but it's fucking legal, or at least, isn't enforced at all! As long as they don't touch him, I don't think I could... help him in a special way, if you know what I mean. Btw, this is where I see lots of Anti-LGBT stuff too. "He's gay!" some say with a smile on their face talking to me. Oh my how much would I love to be able to enforce the law by myself...

There have been quite some "educational" courses at the schools I was at about this stuff. They mainly sucked though, behaving like it wasn't happening right in the same classroom they held these courses at.

In the end I'm really pissed about just about everything I see that people in higher positions do that has in the slightest to do with bullying. It's mostly uninformed, uneducated, bullshit they spit. Like, the ones supposed to fucking help at schools, the teachers, they have this fucked up philosophy of "there's always two", as well as their usual "you got to learn how to deal with people you don't like" "it will always happen throughout your life"


Back to the ones causing it...(while I do think the ones standing next to it doing nothing are guilty to some degree), they, even though they might be nice people to you(in this case - me), doesn't mean they behave that way to others, they might not even know that their behavior hurts people. (However, this case is not very common)

They usually try to find excuses for their bullying - "it's his fault" would be the most common one. Trying to shrug it off onto others.

The "best" solution to bullying would probably be giving the victims a higher self esteem, which can be accomplished, and I can only speak for males now, through things like body building. (I would only suggest team sports if you're already pretty confident)
For females... I don't know, though I've been able to kind of accompany a female victim on her way out. She found a boyfriend, and people to talk to (including me) and has already made significant accomplishments in terms of self-esteem and liberation. Although I do think that this is not a final way out, this is only treatening symptoms, not the cause.

Though I also have this rather huge friend living in another city who told me that he had gotten out of it by following the evil doers home and... Well. They didn't bother him afterwards. This, though, requires not only sufficient strength for such a task but also a ... certain readyness to do such a thing.

I write the longest posts at night

My advice for victims: Build up self-esteem. Google how to or ask people who have gotten out of it. Go do sports, they are simply perfect.

If you see an act such as bullying, you must carefully think of what can be done and what would be the best for the person. You too have some kind of responsibility, especcially as a leftist. (Did I mention these people are very open to leftism?) The female I mentioned earlier was turned into one by her boyfriend. Yeah trots!

Something which is exists but I could not make sufficient experiences with yet is bullying at the work place. It exists, and it's severe, I have heard.

[counterblast]

I love your optimism and that youre going out of your way to help bullied youth.

I do wanna say that trying to obtain a certain body image or reach a standard of masculinity or vesting your self-worth or worldview in the approval of a man , are both potentially unhealthy alternatives.

[Muzk]

I do think sports are healthy. And love. Not only in this case. Any more objections?

[shaderabbit85]

Would someone remind me how LGBT issues relate to the class struggle? Yes, I agree, discrimination is wrong, however, do you really think it helps socialism to have every single cause under the sun attached to it? I'm pretty dead set in my opinion of this, but maybe I missed something in Class Struggle 101 and can get a refresher course. This is a problem with all "major" leftist/socialist parties (if you can call them that, since none of them have squat for membership), as well as people on this board. People run away as soon as they hear the word socialism, and if you throw in every cause under the sun like LGBT they run even harder. Right now, capitalism is stuck in a rut it can't get out of, and what is one of the focal points of the movement? I see far more mentions on this board and on leftist websites of "LGBT discrimination" than "outsourcing jobs." The class struggle is what unites the working class, and until socialists/communists/anarchists realize that, they will stay just as they are, a tiny fringe movement, an "island of misfit toys" if you will, instead of a mass movement.

[Quail]

Would someone remind me how LGBT issues relate to the class struggle? Yes, I agree, discrimination is wrong, however, do you really think it helps socialism to have every single cause under the sun attached to it? I'm pretty dead set in my opinion of this, but maybe I missed something in Class Struggle 101 and can get a refresher course. This is a problem with all "major" leftist/socialist parties (if you can call them that, since none of them have squat for membership), as well as people on this board. People run away as soon as they hear the word socialism, and if you throw in every cause under the sun like LGBT they run even harder. Right now, capitalism is stuck in a rut it can't get out of, and what is one of the focal points of the movement? I see far more mentions on this board and on leftist websites of "LGBT discrimination" than "outsourcing jobs." The class struggle is what unites the working class, and until socialists/communists/anarchists realize that, they will stay just as they are, a tiny fringe movement, an "island of misfit toys" if you will, instead of a mass movement.
We need to fight discrimination (sexism, homophiobia, transphobia, racism, etc) alongside fighting capitalism. It's easy for heterosexual white men to not give a shit about discrimination, but for a lot of people it causes them very real problems.

[Queercommie Girl]

Would someone remind me how LGBT issues relate to the class struggle? Yes, I agree, discrimination is wrong, however, do you really think it helps socialism to have every single cause under the sun attached to it? I'm pretty dead set in my opinion of this, but maybe I missed something in Class Struggle 101 and can get a refresher course. This is a problem with all "major" leftist/socialist parties (if you can call them that, since none of them have squat for membership), as well as people on this board. People run away as soon as they hear the word socialism, and if you throw in every cause under the sun like LGBT they run even harder. Right now, capitalism is stuck in a rut it can't get out of, and what is one of the focal points of the movement? I see far more mentions on this board and on leftist websites of "LGBT discrimination" than "outsourcing jobs." The class struggle is what unites the working class, and until socialists/communists/anarchists realize that, they will stay just as they are, a tiny fringe movement, an "island of misfit toys" if you will, instead of a mass movement.

Fuck you and your implicit accusation of LGBT people as "misfits" just because we don't drink your rigid capitalist cultural chauvinist bi-genderal kool-aid.

Would you also consider other social issues such as sexism, racism and Islamophobia etc in a similar way, or are you just singling out LGBT people?

Consider this classic Marxist proverb: The proletariat must liberate all of humanity before it liberates itself.

The "working class" never was and never will be a single giant monolith. But rather it is an association of a diverse range of sections. "Working class unity" is not something that is abstract and can be imposed on workers in a top-down bureaucratic manner, that will never work. "Working class unity" can only organically emerge through the real concrete struggles of different sections in common solidarity. That's why fighting against LGBT discrimination is important, just as fighting against racism, sexism, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism etc are all important as well. Only through this can real unity and solidarity be built among the working class at large.

You are just implicitly looking at the "working class" through a "standard white male heterosexual mode", as if the "model worker" that represents the proletariat in general is always just a "white male heterosexual".

This is the discrimination sub-forum so naturally LGBT discrimination, sexism, racism etc feature quite heavily. There are a huge number of articles in other sub-forums that discuss and analyse more direct economic issues.

[shaderabbit85]

I apologize if you took my comments as implying homosexuals are misfits. I think the struggle against "Islamophobia" is in the same category. Racism and sexism translate into real wage differentials in the workplace and differential treatment. I'm sure LGBT discrimination has in a few cases as well, but on a far, far smaller scale. I'm looking at this from a tactical perspective. As I said, I think we can all agree discrimination is wrong. But is it helping the cause of the working class (white/black gay/straight etc) to be pushing this so damn hard? If I'm working next to someone, I see them as a member of the proletariat first. The working class IS a giant monolith, not of "heterosexual white men" as you like to put it but of all people, of different races, sexes, religions, and orientations. That's what unites us. And pushing the class struggle, and not one small aspect or aspects of it, is what is going to bring about real change, especially in this economy.

[the last donut of the night]

We have to combat LGBT bigotry because just like racism, patriarchy and heteronormativity is foremost a product of class society and capitalism. Fighting against capitalism means fighting against all oppressions.

[Jazzratt]

I apologize if you took my comments as implying homosexuals are misfits. I think the struggle against "Islamophobia" is in the same category. Racism and sexism translate into real wage differentials in the workplace and differential treatment. I'm sure LGBT discrimination has in a few cases as well, but on a far, far smaller scale. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you've never actually been an LGBT person in a workplace. That's fair enough. It's just as fair though to point out you're talking out of your arse. There may not be as great a wage differential but you must be having a laugh if you're saying that the "differential treatment" of LGBT workers is on a "far, far smaller scale." Homophobic bullying in the workplace is really quite unpleasant and, worse still, the victim is supposed to just "laugh it off" as "banter."


I'm looking at this from a tactical perspective. As I said, I think we can all agree discrimination is wrong. But is it helping the cause of the working class (white/black gay/straight etc) to be pushing this so damn hard? If I'm working next to someone, I see them as a member of the proletariat first. The working class IS a giant monolith, not of "heterosexual white men" as you like to put it but of all people, of different races, sexes, religions, and orientations. That's what unites us. And pushing the class struggle, and not one small aspect or aspects of it, is what is going to bring about real change, especially in this economy. Class struggle isn't a mystical voodoo process that makes everyone view the people around them as just other proletarians. You and I might well take the view that the an immigrant worker (for example) but to the blokes outside the jobcentre that same worker might be "a fuckin' paki nicking our jobs." It's easier to facilitate effective class struggle amongst a class already united, and to do that we have to destroy everything that is dividing us; that includes all the things that you arrogantly dismiss as being some irrelevant splinter that shows we'll latch on to "every idea under the sun."

Prejudice is a barrier to class struggle, not simply something that will go away if we pretend it isn't there.

[shaderabbit85]

Hey pal, since I'm "talking out my ass", let's see. See, I'm actually a blue-collar worker in a blue-collar profession. I must not know what I'm talking about. The last incident of racial discrimination I saw at someplace I personally worked, the new black guy got assigned on his second day of work to clean the toilets as his regular daily assignment. Now, I'd personally rather have someone call me a silly name rather than have to clean the shitter, but that's just me. "Bullying" is the new buzzword around this issue. Sticks and stones and wage differentials may break my bones, but words won't hurt me at all.

I'm just going to drop this, since I haven't heard anything terribly convincing and I've obviously touched upon one of the sacred cows of revleft(seem to be a lot of those around here)

[Jazzratt]

Hey pal, since I'm "talking out my ass", let's see. See, I'm actually a blue-collar worker in a blue-collar profession. Well done. You have a job, that doesn't actually validate your opinions.

I must not know what I'm talking about.Yes, of course I think you're wrong because you're a blue collar worker :rolleyes: It couldn't at all be because you're a dismissive prick.

The last incident of racial discrimination I saw at someplace I personally worked, the new black guy got assigned on his second day of work to clean the toilets as his regular daily assignment. Now, I'd personally rather have someone call me a silly name rather than have to clean the shitter, but that's just me. Look you stupid prick. I've cleaned toilets for years, it's unpleasant sure but it's not likely to make me kill myself. The treatment meted out to homosexuals in the workplace, the bullying I mentioned, that does. It's not just "a silly name", its years of constant abuse for an immutable characteristic in a person. After years of that sort of abuse some people are going to jump off their mortal coils.

"Bullying" is the new buzzword around this issue. Sticks and stones and wage differentials may break my bones, but words won't hurt me at all. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to exist out of your own little bubble of privilege and worse still you make no attempt to understand it. HURR HURR ITS JUST SILLY NAMES! Isn't an analysis.


I'm just going to drop this, since I haven't heard anything terribly convincing and I've obviously touched upon one of the sacred cows of revleft(seem to be a lot of those around here) I'll take your concession then.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I apologize if you took my comments as implying homosexuals are misfits. I think the struggle against "Islamophobia" is in the same category. Racism and sexism translate into real wage differentials in the workplace and differential treatment. I'm sure LGBT discrimination has in a few cases as well, but on a far, far smaller scale. I'm looking at this from a tactical perspective. As I said, I think we can all agree discrimination is wrong. But is it helping the cause of the working class (white/black gay/straight etc) to be pushing this so damn hard? If I'm working next to someone, I see them as a member of the proletariat first. The working class IS a giant monolith, not of "heterosexual white men" as you like to put it but of all people, of different races, sexes, religions, and orientations. That's what unites us. And pushing the class struggle, and not one small aspect or aspects of it, is what is going to bring about real change, especially in this economy.
So let me get this figured out on what you're trying to say, you think that there aren't significant wage "differentials" due to transphobia. I suppose since in most states (including Wisconsin, where I live) it is perfectly legal to discriminate against/fire someone for being trans. There are a bunch of states where they can also discriminate against/fire someone based on sexual orientation. That's not even getting to the wage differences between these lines themselves. That is an issue. Because society has your basic mindset of insensitivity towards LGBT issues, the LGBT population has a much higher suicide rate. I would know, I was almost that statistic. Or we could look at the prison industrial complex at the disproportionate amount of transwomen in prison, especially transwomen of color.
So take your anglo hetero male privilege and shove it up your ass.

[shaderabbit85]

As i said, i'm just going to let this die.

La unica otra pinche cosa que voy a decir es que soy irlandes y chicano, no soy "anglo". Conozco la discriminacion. Pues puedes tomar las pendajas de "privilege" y meterlas!

[Weezer]

I just read an article on PSLweb titled, "Youth suicides caused by bullying and bigotry," it talks about a number of situations in which Young LGBT people we're harassed to the point of taking they're own lives, from Tyler Clementi the 18 year old at Rutgers University who jumped off the George Washington Bridge after his roommate posted footage online of an intimate moment between Tyler and another male student. It also included Asher Brown a 13-year who, "shot himself after harassment from his classmates became unbearable."

Now I'm sure most people on this website already are well informed on this issue, but when I read articles about this and I am reminded how pressing this issue is, class conscious people like ourselves really have the responsibility to stand up to this harassment in every situation it arises even when it makes us uncomfortable and might even alienate us.

Could I have a link to that article?

[Property Is Robbery]

:crying: fuck sometimes it's really not bearable.

[Summerspeaker]

I consider heterosexism and the male supremacy fundamental parts of the broad spirit of domination and hierarchy that enables capitalism.

[Manic Impressive]

It's easy for heterosexual white men to not give a shit about discrimination
sexism and racism Fuck you we are all oppressed, some are more oppressed than others but we can only be free through unity and we can only be free once every one of us is free. Please stop generalizing us it's offensive.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

sexism and racism Fuck you we are all oppressed, some are more oppressed than others but we can only be free through unity and we can only be free once every one of us is free. Please stop generalizing us it's offensive.
I do have to say from my perspective, I have a difficult time trusting men. I see men as guilty until proven innocent. After being hurt, assaulted and raped enough, I become less trusting.

EDIT: there are a few men who've earned my trust. but men really have to prove themselves to me.

[Il Medico]

Would someone remind me how LGBT issues relate to the class struggle? Yes, I agree, discrimination is wrong, however, do you really think it helps socialism to have every single cause under the sun attached to it? I'm pretty dead set in my opinion of this, but maybe I missed something in Class Struggle 101 and can get a refresher course. This is a problem with all "major" leftist/socialist parties (if you can call them that, since none of them have squat for membership), as well as people on this board. People run away as soon as they hear the word socialism, and if you throw in every cause under the sun like LGBT they run even harder. Right now, capitalism is stuck in a rut it can't get out of, and what is one of the focal points of the movement? I see far more mentions on this board and on leftist websites of "LGBT discrimination" than "outsourcing jobs." The class struggle is what unites the working class, and until socialists/communists/anarchists realize that, they will stay just as they are, a tiny fringe movement, an "island of misfit toys" if you will, instead of a mass movement.
Fighting to unite the working class and fighting against discrimination are two sides of the same coin. Homophobia, Sexism, Racism, etc, are all divisive forces within the working class. Fighting against these attitudes only helps unite working people. Wearing down the socially contructed divisons of our society lets workers focus on the material ones (i.e class).

[Fawkes]

I'm just going to drop this, since I haven't heard anything terribly convincing and I've obviously touched upon one of the sacred cows of revleft(seem to be a lot of those around here)
Convincing? Perhaps this will help.


Would someone remind me how LGBT issues relate to the class struggle? Yes, I agree, discrimination is wrong, however, do you really think it helps socialism to have every single cause under the sun attached to it?
Yes. Discrimination of every kind serves to divide the working class. Division of the working class is precisely what allows capitalism to perpetuate itself.


People run away as soon as they hear the word socialism, and if you throw in every cause under the sun like LGBT they run even harder.
Yeah, let's just take the easier route and dismiss a significant part of the population's struggles with persecution and violence.


As I said, I think we can all agree discrimination is wrong. But is it helping the cause of the working class (white/black gay/straight etc) to be pushing this so damn hard?
Yes, as I showed earlier.


The class struggle is what unites the working class
How the fuck is the working class supposed to be united if these divisions are ignored?


If I'm working next to someone, I see them as a member of the proletariat first
But they're not. You are making the same mistake Black nationalists made in the 1960s by viewing race as the central problem, and other issues as secondary.

You are not a proletariat, and then a white, heterosexual male. I'll give myself as an example: I am a white, non-heterosexual, male, non-gender identifying, sophomore college student, Brooklyn resident, Connecticut native, avid music fan, green-haired, anarchist, proletariat, etc... person.

One's identity is first and foremost a transient thing, it is not something static, rather, it is a process. And secondly, one's sense of self is shaped by everything about them, both genetic and socially conditioned. Putting one aspect of identity at the fore is dangerous and counterproductive for the holistic aims of socialists seeking the liberation of people from all forms of oppression. I recommend you check out the works of third-wave black feminists, particularly bell hooks, who were instrumental in recognizing this horizontal approach to identity structure. Simon Frith is also a writer I found important in theorizing identity formation as a continual, never ending process.


Now, I'd personally rather have someone call me a silly name rather than have to clean the shitter, but that's just me. "Bullying" is the new buzzword around this issue. Sticks and stones and wage differentials may break my bones, but words won't hurt me at all.

Maybe words don't hurt you, but they do a lot of people. Those people should just be ignored? These things go far beyond words. Insults and verbal bullying serve to dehumanize people, and that dehumanization leads to violence. Mental and emotional pain aside, verbal bullying incites and legitimizes physical violence, and it's because of assholes like you that people like me constantly live under the threat of getting their asses kicked/killed as a result of their perceived gender/sexuality. It is a big fucking deal.

Who the fuck are you to think you know what I'm going through or anyone else facing gender/sexual discrimination? Just cause it doesn't seem like a big fucking deal to you, it should be ignored?

Of course it doesn't seem like a big deal to you, you've obviously never been insulted, made to feel like shit, physically attacked, contemplated suicide, been ostracized, and feared for your life as a result of homo/transphobic abuse. You fucking prick.

Edit: Also, people need to really stop the whole "Oppression Olympics" thing. It doesn't matter what demographics are more oppressed than others (as if there was a way to quantifiably prove that anyway), the fact of the matter is that if you are facing oppression, you are oppressed. It is horribly counterproductive for people to argue over who has it worse because that just creates further division and aids in the perpetuation of the various forms of oppression we are seeking to eradicate.