Discouraging people you know from joining the military

[Manic Impressive]

As communists we should be trying to discourage people we know from joining the military or police or any other service of bourgeoisie control. I'd like to know how many comrades on this forum actually do this.

Personally if any close friends or family decided to apply to either service I would do my best to stop them. However, with other friends and acquaintances I find myself backing down and not putting up an argument against their decision. This leaves me feeling guilty as if I have failed them and betrayed my political beliefs. Unfortunately these are not isolated incidents, it seems as if every week I meet someone else I know who has signed up.

so

Any comrades here actually try to dissuade people?

How do you do it?

[∞]

I just tell them this, "You got a family, at home, don't fight for your country, fight for a belief that you have, not what the government has."

[Manic Impressive]

I'm not short of arguments against joining the military, but do you really say that?
I'm no shrinking violet and I can speak my mind easily but it seems incredibly socially uncomfortable to say this to people.

[this is an invasion]

As communists we should be trying to discourage people we know from joining the military or police or any other service of bourgeoisie control.

All work is under bourgeois control...

[Manic Impressive]

huh ok but the army is under the control of the section of the bourgeois who actually control things. If you think I have been lazy in my terminology then forgive me as it is late where I am.

[StoneFrog]

You mean to prevent those people from joining an apparatus in which is used by the bourgeoisie, to effectively impose bourgeoisie rule onto not only workers of the country but the workers in an international sense?
Maybe that helps a bit, its just nit picking by this is an invasion. Does nothing but disrupt a valid question.

Try to explain how the armed forces help to institute imperialism with in countries. Also use examples of the middle east, and that the armies aren't there to implant democracy for this is a illusion. Look to the U.S allies in the middle east and how democratic they are, yet nothing is done by western forces because they are in their pockets.

[Diello]

My first though in regards to joining the military is always, "Do you really trust the U.S. government's judgment well enough to go kill strangers on their behalf?"

[fa2991]

I've never met someone bent on joining the army sensible enough to talk to.

[#FF0000]

I have three friends that went off and joined the military. I wanted to stop them but didn't really push the issue and now I wish I did.

If you're gonna convince someone to reconsider the military, don't do it just based on politics and don't be preachy and lecture them. Treat it like a serious talk. Explain to them why you're worried about them going into the military and all that.

Bring up the politics too but making it personal and expressing concern for their well being (which is going to be compromised just by being trained to kill) might make it sink in better.

And if the person is female, then definitely warn them of the extremely real and disgustingly commonplace occurrence of rape in the American armed forces. One is more likely to be raped then shot at this point.

[Magón]

I had a friend who was going to join the Army, but I was pretty outspoken with him about it. I can't remember exactly what I told him, but I told him something along the lines that if he did join the Army, I'd loose all respect for him and that I'd already lost respect for those fighting in an unnecessary war which did more harm than good for people in the US, no matter what the news, etc. said. That didn't really change his idea much, but his girlfriend at the time agreed with me so he didn't go because of her.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

I am joining the Navy next year.

Its alright for some people, but i cannot get work, and ill be kicked out soon, so the navy is a lifeline.

All this talk is meaningless, the unemployed need work, and the military never stops recruiting.

Hell, when your friend gets back, he can be your General Bayo :)

[Magón]

I am joining the Navy next year.

Its alright for some people, but i cannot get work, and ill be kicked out soon, so the navy is a lifeline.

All this talk is meaningless, the unemployed need work, and the military never stops recruiting.

Hell, when your friend gets back, he can be your General Bayo :)

I think if I got laid off, couldn't find work, and thus couldn't help pay for my schooling, I'd just leech around the country. Traveling by foot/hitchhike.

[meow]

so what does navy offer? if you are anarchist how can you justify it to yourself?!

how long will you have to be in the navy before you can leave? any other job you can leave when you want. but if you are stuck in the navy for 5 years? fuck that!

sure. you cant get work. but do you need to work to survive? squat. dumpster dive. steal. but dont give up your the minimum freedom you have for "security" or some such.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

joining the navy as a chef will get me 16 thousand a year, plus, for certain fleets, you get a 5000 joining bonus.

Now, i would get basic military training, learn to cook for large ammounts of people, which prepares me for any looming revolution, and could get me a jopb in a kitchen when i leave.

I wont have to kill anyone, and if they did try and send me to somewhere to act as an imperialist lackey, i would go on hungerstrike.

How can i defend it as an anarchist?

the same way other anarchiosts work for mcdonalds, or anywhere, because, everyone works for the oppressor, so any job is empowering the bourgoisie.

All the sloganeering and catchy chants, mean fuck all when your low as fuck, and treated like dole scum by everyone you know.

How does joining the navy change my beliefs, if anything, radicals joining up and radicalising others, is a good thing, then, if we do have a revolution, the military could side with

[Widerstand]

The army is as good as any job, in fact probably even better than some, because it provides free combat training and is an available option to virtually anyone (that isn't disabled).

If you are in the USA, or any other country with major troop in investments in imperialist wars, of course it is a bit questionable. But then again, most if not all mass employers directly engage in (economic) imperialism.

Also, the vast majority of jobs are "bourgeois controlled". That's part of why we want a revolution, you know?

[The Douche]

For the hundredth time, it is not ok for radicals to join the military, there is no excuse for it, and it is better to be homless than to be in the military. The only exception I can see (after having exhausted all other avenues) is if you have a family to support.

This is coming from somebody who has been in the army for almost 5 years and has done a combat tour in Iraq, and who was an anarchist when he enlisted.

[Widerstand]

For the hundredth time, it is not ok for radicals to join the military, there is no excuse for it, and it is better to be homless than to be in the military. The only exception I can see (after having exhausted all other avenues) is if you have a family to support.

This is coming from somebody who has been in the army for almost 5 years and has done a combat tour in Iraq, and who was an anarchist when he enlisted.

What about joining the military and never leaving your country (as a friend of mine who's been enlisted in the Danish military for I think 4 years did)? It may not be possible in the US, but it is in parts of Europe at least, to refuse being sent to other countries.

[The Douche]

What about joining the military and never leaving your country (as a friend of mine who's been enlisted in the Danish military for I think 4 years did)? It may not be possible in the US, but it is in parts of Europe at least, to refuse being sent to other countries.

That's not possible here (I am a member of the "national guard" which is supposed to play the role of the militia, but is regularly deployed overseas and falls under the ultimate command of the regular army). I would still be opposed to such a scenario as his job is literally to enforce/support the enforcement of capitalism.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

So you can get a wage off being in the millitary, but the rest of us should choose homelessness.

I will choose to die in a gutter, when you go AWOL and go to court martial.

[The Douche]

So you can get a wage off being in the millitary, but the rest of us should choose homelessness.

I will choose to die in a gutter, when you go AWOL and go to court martial.

Or you can get on unemployment/food stamps/welfare/go to soup kitchens/dumpster dive/stay in shelters/squat all while looking for a job. Also, I don't know where you live but here in the states there are programs like JobCorps where they train you with a technical skill while giving you a place to live during that training. I'm sure such programs exist in many other western countries.

These options are all more valid than enlisting in the military.

I have not encouraged anybody to die in a gutter, and what you're doing there, of course, is creating a false dichotomy.

Furthermore if I went AWOL I would not go to court martial because I wouldn't be around, I would be "Absent With Out Leave". (nice try though) So yes of course I could stop reporting for duty, and at this point I probably would not recieve a court martial but I would end up owing the army around $15,000, which I of course don't have. But what I do have is a family to take care of.

Either way your position is absurd, you're not making a logical arguement, you're just trying to shift the focus away from your own desire to join the navy, which is the easy way for most working class kids. But you, as some sort of radical, know better.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs43/i/2009/084/0/7/Barb_Wire_Baseball_Bat_Stock_by_GloomWriter.jpg

(That's a joke. The barbed wire is totally overkill.)

No, really though, if a person is seriously a friend or part of your life, they should take you seriously when you explain how totally fucked up they're being. If they join up anyway, I guess you can either try to engage with them in ways that are supportive but critical or ... well, someone in Afghanistan might thank you if you do something to ensure they fail their physical.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

Yeah sorry if i came across as defensive cmoney, but it pisses me off when people (not you as your in the military) who have good jobs and went to university, call people like me, with no qualifications, a criminal record, and no work experience, sellouts, for joining the navy.

It is not like i will be going to Afghanistan, i will be trying to become a chef on a submarine.

And if i stay here, my mums company is going bust, so she will probably be selling our tiny house, and moving abroad after working all her life, I have stayed in a state ran hostel before, I am not going to live their, I want more from life.

[The Douche]

I was in a similar position when I joined, and in retrospect the harder life of trying to find a job, or of being a traveler kid, train hopping/hitching/squatting would have been the better choice.

[Fulanito de Tal]

If you're gonna convince someone to reconsider the military, don't do it just based on politics and don't be preachy and lecture them. Treat it like a serious talk. Explain to them why you're worried about them going into the military and all that.

Bring up the politics too but making it personal and expressing concern for their well being (which is going to be compromised just by being trained to kill) might make it sink in better.

And if the person is female, then definitely warn them of the extremely real and disgustingly commonplace occurrence of rape in the American armed forces. One is more likely to be raped then shot at this point.

I agree.

Joining the military is a personal issue, while politics is macro. Talking someone out of joining the military by appealing to political arguments wont do much because you and the other would not be talking the same language. Many people join the military to escape, improve their skills, find employment, make close friends, change their routine, learn discipline, gain respect, do something meaningful, education benefits, and more. While these may not be appealing or even true to you, they are to the person making the decision. If someone you know is joining the military, the best you can do is appeal to their specific needs, not use political statements.

Furthermore, I'm not going to go homeless to prevent my bourgeoisie landlord from making profit off of my rent, just like some wont stop from joining the military to stand up for political beliefs. If I move out, someone will take my spot. If your friend doesn't join the military, someone will take his or her spot. If a few don't join, they'll tax us more and give more bonuses. Single or a small amount of sacrifices wont harm anyone but those that do it. Once we have the motivation, people, leadership, and solidarity, I'll be ready for sacrifice, till then, I'll be making my paper, boo-boo.

[Tablo]

It is hard to convince jobless people with families to take care of that joining the military is a bad idea. In reality it is the best option for some people, which is bad. Sometimes it doesn't matter how bad it is cause they don't have much of an option.

[Manic Impressive]

joining the navy as a chef will get me 16 thousand a year, plus, for certain fleets, you get a 5000 joining bonus.

Now, i would get basic military training, learn to cook for large ammounts of people, which prepares me for any looming revolution, and could get me a jopb in a kitchen when i leave.

I wont have to kill anyone, and if they did try and send me to somewhere to act as an imperialist lackey, i would go on hungerstrike.

How can i defend it as an anarchist?

the same way other anarchiosts work for mcdonalds, or anywhere, because, everyone works for the oppressor, so any job is empowering the bourgoisie.

All the sloganeering and catchy chants, mean fuck all when your low as fuck, and treated like dole scum by everyone you know.

How does joining the navy change my beliefs, if anything, radicals joining up and radicalising others, is a good thing, then, if we do have a revolution, the military could side with


ok first $16k (I'm guessing?) is a patheticly low salary for selling not only your labour but for selling your own freedom.

You won't kill anyone directly (unless you're a really bad chef) but indirectly you will be murdering babies. You will be a cog in the machine, say you are on an aircraft carrier you are directly sustaining the needs of the pilots who will go and bomb the civilians. Indirectly blood will be on your hands as well.

Working at McDonalds is not the same as being in the military. Workers at McDonalds will not be the first to be called to protect the interests of the bourgeoisie if a revolution actually started. This is true even if you are in the least imperialist army in the world your job is to protect the state from all enemies domestic and foreign.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

That unscientific.

If a chef in the navy, who is not going to be operating in any war zones is a cog, then a guy flipping burgers at maccyDs is also a cog, Mcdonalds kills the earth, and people who it hires to pick ots cofee, who it gets it meat from etc.

The reason i want to be a chef on a sub is, I will not be propping up any combat force.

Unless you think all navy chefs are secret special forces action film Steven segal charachters off that film where terrorists take over the ship LMAO :)

[Manic Impressive]

:D lol @Steven Segal

I seriously doubt you get the choice where your sub goes and what it's mission is. If your sub is called on to destroy an enemy ship you won't be able to stop it. That's besides the point you will be protecting the ruling classes interests you or others like you could be called on to stop a revolution. As an anarchist how do you think you will cope with the strict discipline and hierarchy of the navy?


The reason i want to be a chef on a sub is, I will not be propping up any combat force.
So submarines are not combat vessels? What are they for then?

p.s.
Yeah sorry if i came across as defensive cmoney, but it pisses me off when people (not you as your in the military) who have good jobs and went to university, call people like me, with no qualifications, a criminal record, and no work experience, sellouts, for joining the navy.dito but I'd never sell out ;)

[The Douche]

The job of the military is to protect the interests of the capitalist class, the job of the guy at McDonalds is to serve burgers.


Shut the fuck up with that comparison.

[Victus Mortuum]

You won't kill anyone directly (unless you're a really bad chef) but indirectly you will be murdering babies. You will be a cog in the machine, say you are on an aircraft carrier you are directly sustaining the needs of the pilots who will go and bomb the civilians. Indirectly blood will be on your hands as well.

He will no more be killing people than the individuals who shipped him the food. Than the individuals who farmed the food. Than the individuals who built the farming equipment. By your argument, EVERYONE in the world is guilty. The people who kill are the PEOPLE WHO KILL and the people who give the orders to kill.

[this is an invasion]

huh ok but the army is under the control of the section of the bourgeois who actually control things. If you think I have been lazy in my terminology then forgive me as it is late where I am.
No I just don't get why people think some work is "better" than other work.

It's not that I think being a cop or soldier is ok, it's that I think all work is "bad." No matter what you do, you are creating capital and power and strengthening the economy.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

Cmoney you fucking hypocryt, shut the fuck up.

Hiding behind your "ive got a reason to be in the military, i have a family" bullshit.

you joined because you wanted work.

i need work, so im joining.

And its true the camparison is right.

How will a chef on a non nuclear submarine be propping up combat, what is the navy engaged in a 1943 type sea battle?

get real

and your warning against the military, but not quiting the military, is like when thirdworldists say were evil parasites for buying coke and living off third world products, while typing on theri laptop made in china :)

[gorillafuck]

All work is under bourgeois control...
Military service is directly killing for imperialism, though. Also we don't want friends dying in imperialist wars. That would suck.:(


Cmoney you fucking hypocryt, shut the fuck up.

Hiding behind your "ive got a reason to be in the military, i have a family" bullshit.
Actually he's consistently said that he wishes he didn't join the military...

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

i guess you missed the part where i sad id go on hungerstrike if they tried to send me into an imperialist war

[this is an invasion]

Military service is directly killing for imperialism, though. Also we don't want friends dying in imperialist wars. That would suck.:(
Well yeah.


I just find it weird when some people sanctify certain jobs. All jobs are are going to ultimately help the bourgeoisie, some more than others.

[this is an invasion]

Cmoney you fucking hypocryt, shut the fuck up.

Hiding behind your "ive got a reason to be in the military, i have a family" bullshit.

you joined because you wanted work.

i need work, so im joining.

And its true the camparison is right.

How will a chef on a non nuclear submarine be propping up combat, what is the navy engaged in a 1943 type sea battle?

get real

and your warning against the military, but not quiting the military, is like when thirdworldists say were evil parasites for buying coke and living off third world products, while typing on theri laptop made in china :)
Damn who let the tool in?

You are aware you can't just quit the military, right?

[Ele'ill]

As communists we should be trying to discourage people we know from joining the military or police or any other service of bourgeoisie control. I'd like to know how many comrades on this forum actually do this.

Personally if any close friends or family decided to apply to either service I would do my best to stop them. However, with other friends and acquaintances I find myself backing down and not putting up an argument against their decision. This leaves me feeling guilty as if I have failed them and betrayed my political beliefs. Unfortunately these are not isolated incidents, it seems as if every week I meet someone else I know who has signed up.

so

Any comrades here actually try to dissuade people?

How do you do it?


I'd like to share a story-

A friend is in debt pretty bad- he has a job working with youth- it's a 'social work' type position. He was considering joining the military- specifically the USAF. We're both the same age - mid-late 20's.

We both have similar socio-political beliefs but he's one of those people that wants to criticize everything from an almost elitest position and his life goal is to settle in a community with friends and family and live a 'hippy' life in cob houses and then he wants to organize his community with neighboring communities. He wants to open a school and change the world by teaching. He likes the slow change process (which I think is bullshit- liberal and useless)

I started off by asking him why he thinks the military is a good route for him. He said he didn't have much discipline and he thinks the military would help with that- he could save more money- then he could get out and do what he wants to do with his life.

Right away I was seeing the selfishness in his proposed decision.

I explained to him that the military recruiting complex targets at risk youth- from low income families and proposes that the military is honorable and a good career path. The same at risk youth he was working with are the people targeted. I asked him if he would ever suggest that his 'students' enlist in the military and he said no.

I asked him who the wars benefit- the low income or the upper percentages and he said the upper percentages.

I asked him if he was prepared to kill civilians that are in a worse living condition than he was- debt wise and materially.

He said he thinks he can turn off his moral compass for 4 years until he gets out and that it would be a means to an end- it would put him in a better position to help people after wards.

I explained that when students come up to him after he 'opens a school' or whatever creepy cult thing he had in his head- and they ask him how you did all this- that he would have to explain to them exactly what he did- he contributed to civilian deaths in foreign countries so that he could live a white- privileged imperialist life in his colonial country. I explained that he would have to be brutally honest with them.


This conversation continued to come up over the period of about a month- "Well I wouldn't be killing civilians myself" - Well yes you would be- as part of the military every position down to the custodial staffers and cooks keeps a war machine running- its purpose is not humanitarian in nature- its purpose is to kill.

"Well maybe I'll open a school in Iraq or whereever" - What will you tell your students when they ask you how you did it? That I'm here to help but I spent the last 4 years of my life ensuring that other people could kill your families?

The conversations were much more in-depth than this but you get the idea.


It would have been much harder to convince someone who isn't 'leftist' or 'liberal'- he is also not necessarily convinced- but for the time being he's stopped talking about it and I'd like to think that It's because of the facts and the view points that I provided.


Also- even after many heated conversations with him I still consider him to be a good friend- in the event he reads this I figured I'd add that to cover my ass. He isn't stupid- he's smart etc etc.

[gorillafuck]

i guess you missed the part where i sad id go on hungerstrike if they tried to send me into an imperialist war
But you wanna join the military?

I'm gonna go to McDonalds and order french fries, but if they were made in a fryer then I'm gonna flip shit.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

Well you can if you care enough, like joe glenton in the UK did, along with other soldiers, who were willing to go to prison, rather than kill kids.

i suppose its between being ok with going to prison for a year to not put rounds into innocent people.

Guess Cmoney would rather be a bad ass infantry bloodhound, good call :rolleyes:

[this is an invasion]

Well you can if you care enough, like joe glenton in the UK did, along with other soldiers, who were willing to go to prison, rather than kill kids.

i suppose its between being ok with going to prison for a year to not put rounds into innocent people.

Guess Cmoney would rather be a bad ass infantry bloodhound, good call :rolleyes:
You're an idiot. You're going to join the military during a time of war, and then do something that will put you in prison if you're shipped off over seas? How do people like you find anarchy?

Why not just be a normal fucking person and go to school or find a shitty job or get food stamps or something? As far as I know, most Western countries give you money for going to school...

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

THE NAVY HAS NEVER BEEN TO AFGHANISTAN OR IRAQ

how will i be sent to fight, i will not be in a combat role, alot of subs just lookout for drug smuggling etc nowadayd.

Imnot such a sick bastard to join the infantry, when i know i would have to be a depraved beast and shoot people.

Also im not an anarchist, you should really think before you run off at the mouth.

[Ele'ill]

THE NAVY HAS NEVER BEEN TO AFGHANISTAN OR IRAQ

how will i be sent to fight, i will not be in a combat role, alot of subs just lookout for drug smuggling etc nowadayd.

Imnot such a sick bastard to join the infantry, when i know i would have to be a depraved beast and shoot people.

Also im not an anarchist, you should really think before you run off at the mouth.


The Navy has never been to either?

I know for a fact that their special operations soldiers and their support has- which indicates that their support has support- etc.

[Ele'ill]

THE NAVY HAS NEVER BEEN TO AFGHANISTAN OR IRAQ

how will i be sent to fight, i will not be in a combat role, alot of subs just lookout for drug smuggling etc nowadayd.

Imnot such a sick bastard to join the infantry, when i know i would have to be a depraved beast and shoot people.

Also im not an anarchist, you should really think before you run off at the mouth.


Also- Any position in the military supports killing that is imperialist and unjust in nature.

"protest is masturbation" in your sig is also amusing because it's bullshit.

[this is an invasion]

THE NAVY HAS NEVER BEEN TO AFGHANISTAN OR IRAQ

how will i be sent to fight, i will not be in a combat role, alot of subs just lookout for drug smuggling etc nowadayd.

Imnot such a sick bastard to join the infantry, when i know i would have to be a depraved beast and shoot people.

Also im not an anarchist, you should really think before you run off at the mouth.
Maybe you should take "anarcho" out of your name then, genius.

[The Douche]

Hey shithead, there are tons of sailors in Iraq and Afghanistan, you go wherever the chain of command sends you. There was a navy dude attatched to my unit who worked on computers for us.

Subs carry things like cruise missiles, those get fired at the "enemy", welcome to combat, chump.

Am I a hypocrite? Of fucking course I am, it was absurdly hypocritical and selfish of me to join the army, while being an anarchist, just so I would have enough money to go to school and to make sure I had a place to stay. I knew better, but I did it anyways, and I didn't listen to any of my friends who told me other wise. And you sir, are a hypocrite as well, but refuse to even acknowledge the situation.

The point of every job in every branch is to support the infantry, whatever you do, it is to make sure the infantry has what they need to close with, engage, and destroy the enemy, you support combat operations.

You'll go on a hungerstrike? Haha, cute, you'll be court-martialed, refusal to eat constitutes destruction of government property. If you make a stink you're gonna get sent to the brig for a while, demoted, and probably get yourself a BCD (bad conduct discharge) and then you'll have no money and an even harder time finding a job.

Think about what the fuck you're doing, and especially think about who the fuck you're arguing with when you've got no fucking clue what you're talking about.

[Ele'ill]

THE NAVY HAS NEVER BEEN TO AFGHANISTAN OR IRAQ


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


http://articles.cnn.com/2006-02-07/us/iraq.navy_1_combat-roles-sailors-iraq-or-afghanistan?_s=PM:US



http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-07-navy-air-training_x.htm


http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-07-21/news/17350619_1_air-force-chief-combat-related-navy-personnel

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

So they would attach a navy chef to the infantry?

funny cos my brothers in the navy as a chef,and he is not anywhere near a war.

And so what if i got put in the brigg lmao

if i got discharged, i would have basic combat training.

and if they kill me, gains shit loads of publicity for the anti war movements.

you just cant bear the fact, some people would face court martial rather than kill people.

[NecroCommie]

One bafflingly good way is to insanely bash the illusions of war. I always go in a flaming spree like:

"You may ofcourse go to the army, but I will be laughing at you when you will be covering in your trench praying for your mom. Seeing your skin fucking boil and melt due to chemical weapons really might be the way to free your nation, but then again I am just a communist. War isn't a fucking movie, it's god-damned death in violent ways all the time! You thought you were fighting for a better world, but as you are tortured by your misbelief I will be getting laid back home, so think about that while you suffer in your foxhole full of your own excrement...."

I can't believe it, but that actually convinced two dudes to skip military back here. (where it is easier than in US...)

[gorillafuck]

funny cos my brothers in the navy as a chef,and he is not anywhere near a war.
I heard somewhere that people can go parachuting but I have a brother and he hasn't gone parachuting so I don't know where these people get their ideas!


and if they kill me, gains shit loads of publicity for the anti war movements.
Lol no you wouldn't.

[this is an invasion]

So they would attach a navy chef to the infantry?

funny cos my brothers in the navy as a chef,and he is not anywhere near a war.

And so what if i got put in the brigg lmao

if i got discharged, i would have basic combat training.

and if they kill me, gains shit loads of publicity for the anti war movements.

you just cant bear the fact, some people would face court martial rather than kill people.
Dude you don't make any sense.

First you say that you are joining the military because you need a job.

But then you say that you're willing to go on hunger strike, which, ultimately, would make it really hard for you to get a decent job after being discharged.

the fuck?

[The Douche]

So they would attach a navy chef to the infantry?

Chefs make food, the infantry eats food, so chefs go where the infantry goes. You think the army doesn't have people that work on computers? Of course they do, but there was a navy guy working with us anyways. And there were air force dudes escorting convoys, and where my buddy was, down south, there were navy dudes attatched as their medics.


funny cos my brothers in the navy as a chef,and he is not anywhere near a war.

Oh word? Funny, cause everything he does, day in and day out is in support of the bourgeoise's war on working people.


And so what if i got put in the brigg lmao

Say goodbye to your money. And your safety, the people guarding military prisoners don't take real well to "cowards" and "traitors".


if i got discharged, i would have basic combat training.

And that helps you in the real world, how? Either way the navy doesn't actually get "combat" training unless they are attached to a combat unit.


and if they kill me, gains shit loads of publicity for the anti war movements.

1) You're just plain wrong.
2) There is no anti-war movement to speak of anymore.


you just cant bear the fact, some people would face court martial rather than kill people.

Here's an idea, don't enlist.

[Manic Impressive]

question for cmoney. What is the army's attitude to anarchists and communists in the army?
I imagine it's not the type of environment which encourages or welcomes radical political thought and they would try to enforce bourgeois lies.

[The Douche]

question for cmoney. What is the army's attitude to anarchists and communists in the army?
I imagine it's not the type of environment which encourages or welcomes radical political thought and they would try to enforce bourgeois lies.

If you are a member of an organization which advocates the overthrow of the government you cannot enlist, and once enlisted you are not permitted to be a member of such an organization.

That said, the army, just like everywhere else is comprised of people, people with various ideas. I have a hammer and sickle tattooed prominently on my arm and a huge circle a on my stomach, people know that I'm an anarchist, they don't care as long as I'm not making things difficult for them or whatever, know what I mean.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

coz hes part of the wolfpack

HOOORAH

GET SOMEEEEEE

[The Douche]

coz hes part of the wolfpack

HOOORAH

GET SOMEEEEEE

What the fuck are you talking about? Wolfpack?



some people...

[Kuppo Shakur]

I've never had to convince someone to not join the military, but I'm pretty convinced that every kid I knew from high school who was going into the military did so because they enjoy Call of Duty 4.



And so what if i got put in the brigg lmao
...
and if they kill me, gains shit loads of publicity for the anti war movements.

Damn, this guy is hard.
Fite da powah!

[Animal Farm Pig]

I don't know anyone who is considering enlisting.

I have run into new soldiers on their way to Basic Training a couple of times in airports. You can recognize them because they are travelling in small groups, look nervous, have DOD meal waivers, and are carrying the ACU pattern backpacks that their recruiters gave them. At Atlanta Intl Airport, they congregate in the ground transport lobby waiting for buses to Ft. Benning.

I've talked to these new soldiers on a couple of occasions. I don't talk about the moral issues related to being a thug for capitalism. I just tell them that they've signed up for a life full of bullshit and that they cannot comprehend how shitty and fucking stupid the Army actually is. I don't expect this to affect their views at that time, and (the few times I've talked with new soldiers) it didn't. My father, who is a veteran, and who I trust a lot, told me the same thing when I enlisted, and it didn't dissuade me.

Then, I tell them that when they realize the mistake they've made, they can desert if they want to. While still in Initial Entry Status (first six months of active duty, or while still in Basic of AIT), they simply need to go AWOL and not be apprehended for 30 days (technically until Dropped From Rolls, which should happen after 30 days [but I've met guys who weren't DFR'ed even after several months. One can check by contacting the Deserter Information Point or keeping in contact with friends from your unit.]). After getting DFR'ed, you simply report to the Personnel Control Facility at either Ft. Sill or Ft. Knox. In typical Army fashion, you'll be there at least a week to do about 4 hours worth of processing and briefings. It's not a bad week, though; most of the time (at Ft. Sill, at least) you sit around on the metal bleachers behind the PCF smoking cigarettes and bullshitting. It was my best week in the Army-- seriously. After that, you're out with an Other Than Honorable discharge, which disqualifies you from veterans benefits and doesn't allow you to reenlist, but it's not a BCD or DD.

I've mentioned before the excellent GI rights hotline (http://girightshotline.org). Next time I travel, I'll have to print up a couple of their info cards to keep in my wallet. If I weren't such a lazy bastard, I could probably print up several and leave them scattered around the dining area of the local MEPS hotel (and enjoy a free meal while I'm at it :cool: ).

[Magón]

Wouldn't disobeying orders and stuff gradually, or right off get you a dishonorable discharge from the military? And doesn't that make it even harder for someone to get a job after being kicked out of the service?

[Animal Farm Pig]

Wouldn't disobeying orders and stuff gradually, or right off get you a dishonorable discharge from the military? And doesn't that make it even harder for someone to get a job after being kicked out of the service?

A DD is basically a felony conviction-- not good to have.

If one would do it from the beginning (in the Army at least), it could be a good way to get an Entry Level Separation.

Actual conversation with my platoon sergeant at AIT--

Me: Sergeant, do you think I could get an ELS for failure to adapt or something like that? What would I need to do?
SFC P.: Well, first thing you should do is throw a brick through the windshield of the Captain's car.

[Magón]

A DD is basically a felony conviction-- not good to have.

If one would do it from the beginning (in the Army at least), it could be a good way to get an Entry Level Separation.

Actual conversation with my platoon sergeant at AIT--

Me: Sergeant, do you think I could get an ELS for failure to adapt or something like that? What would I need to do?
SFC P.: Well, first thing you should do is throw a brick through the windshield of the Captain's car.

Thanks, that's what I thought. Just wasn't sure. :thumbup1:

[#FF0000]

funny cos my brothers in the navy as a chef,and he is not anywhere near a war.


You remind me of another friend of mine who joined the navy in the medical corps or whatever and thought he wouldn't go to Iraq or Afghanistan.

I mean, he didn't, because he's absolutely flaming and couldn't even enlist, but still.

[Magón]

You know who you should really join, to actually help people is the Peace Corp. Ever think of them?

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

i have no qualifications, no money, and a criminal record, they wont take me,i have no skills

and im not petit bourgoisie on a gap year :)

good suggestion though

[The Douche]

You know who you should really join, to actually help people is the Peace Corp. Ever think of them?

Why do people think that is ok? Just had this arguement on facebook, the peace corps not only is, but was designed to be a tool of imperialism.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

shut yar face Cmoney

[The Douche]

shut yar face Cmoney

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/4/wzamNytXvi07470g63yvjwWeo1_250.jpg

[Magón]

Why do people think that is ok? Just had this arguement on facebook, the peace corps not only is, but was designed to be a tool of imperialism.

Sure, but so it the US Military obviously, but in the Peace Corp you're not shooting people up and shit. Just because someone joins the Peace Corp, doesn't mean they have to tell the people the US is the best or something. Shit, you're helping feed people who need it. I had a friend who joined the Peace Corp for a bit, and she got a lot out of it. (And she's an Anarchist.) So I think if I had to choose between joining the Army and shooting people, or the Navy and sitting on some stuffy ass ship all day, or helping feed people, I'd choose feeding people.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

Me and Cmoney would go to Africa with aid and eat it infront of them ... Aint that right Cdog :D

[The Douche]

Sure, but so it the US Military obviously, but in the Peace Corp you're not shooting people up and shit. Just because someone joins the Peace Corp, doesn't mean they have to tell the people the US is the best or something. Shit, you're helping feed people who need it. I had a friend who joined the Peace Corp for a bit, and she got a lot out of it. (And she's an Anarchist.) So I think if I had to choose between joining the Army and shooting people, or the Navy and sitting on some stuffy ass ship all day, or helping feed people, I'd choose feeding people.

So when the IMF gives a developing country money thats good? They need the money right?

Yet another false dichotomy, its not "the army or the peace corps". The peace corps is actually probably a bad idea, because you're not learning any certifiable skills or getting job training, you know?


Me and Cmoney would go to Africa with aid and eat it infront of them ... Aint that right Cdog :D

Seen enough of the third world brah.

[Magón]

So when the IMF gives a developing country money thats good? They need the money right?

Yet another false dichotomy, its not "the army or the peace corps". The peace corps is actually probably a bad idea, because you're not learning any certifiable skills or getting job training, you know?

I'm not saying that people with Left ideas or something, should go off and join the Peace Corp, but I think if they're set on joining something like the Peace Corp or the Military, the Peace Corp is a much better idea of joining than the military, no matter on where they're stationed/acting.

I wouldn't join either personally, but if someone's set on joining a organization like them, the Peace Corp is a better position.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

Cmoney was a harcore soldier, he went through shit in Nam.

He says

2IM NO HERO"

in that way where itslike bating people to say hes a hero

"just doing whatever he can to feed his family

HAHA

shit C, they should make a film about you called

C: Just a man, fighting for his family

we will get brad pit or the guy outa 300

Your like Snake pliskin if he was a mohawk anarchist LMFAO :D

[The Douche]

They allready made a movie about my exploits, dog.

Yk7f_nYKXZE

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

Wadaya say Cmoney?

FUKKKKKK EMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!

:lol::):D:laugh::thumbup1::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol :

[Red Panther]

I wouldn't encourage joining any armed forces but sometimes it might be the best option for some people. I have a friend who's not very clever and it's a choice between working minimum wage at a shop all his life and the armed forces. At least they provide some training for people as well.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

The Red Army Faction were a bunch of eliteist pricks, led by a sexist vandal who just like to blow shit up

Remove that Avatar or i will inform the correct authorities and get you done for promoting terrorist groups

[Widerstand]

The Red Army Faction were a bunch of eliteist pricks, led by a sexist vandal who just like to blow shit up

Didn't know Ulrike was sexist.

[Diello]

The Red Army Faction were a bunch of elitist pricks, led by a sexy vandal who just liked to blow shit up.

Fix'd.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

kkkute
Ulrike was a tiny part of the RAF, Ensslin made the decisions after Baader

none of the women were revolutionary, as they let Baader call them ****s and patriachally tread on them

and Baader was a sexist prick, therfore not revolutionary.

In other words

they were a bunch of knobs, who did fuck all for the workers.

They were pesuedo student marxists, who were fucking pathetic and had no good analysis, and were pretty close to being thirdworldists.

[The Douche]

Are you not revolutionary then, cause you want to join the navy? I'd say that's worse than using reactionary language.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

I want to join the military to get siome training not available as a civy, while getting a wage and somewhere to sleep.

and your digging for things, as clearly, calling a woman a ****, in the most sexist of ways is clearly reactionary.

Joining the navy, but if they tried to send me to fight, refusing, are not even in the same leauge

You however you child murdering bastard, are pretty fucking low.

Would you like it if i fucking put a bullet in your kids face?

get your shit together

[The Douche]

Yes, using reactionary language is bad. But serving in imperialist armed forces is ok?

Training? Haha...ok, you can't learn how to cook food as a civilian? Non-combat personnel in the navy don't even learn how to shoot rifles, much less any squad tactics.

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

Maybe not in the US, but here, you go through sixteen weeks of basic, or twelve, cant remember actually, and you do get training in firearms and basics.

How would you know anyway, your in the fucking national guard, bunch of lame dudes who wanted to fight, but were too pussy for the marines :lol::lol:

[The Douche]

The navy learns how to shoot the weapons that they regularly encounter. (handguns and shotguns, I know a few dudes who shot rifles/machine guns but they were in combat jobs)

Pussy? Who's using the language of patriarchy now?

And yeah, what would I know, I've just spent 5 years in the army, a year in Iraq and a two or so years in a special operations capable unit.:rolleyes:

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

wow next stop blackwater.

The us military is a fucking joke, your training is a bag of shit.

Did you see that article about the foreign legion jungle course, the average legionaire group of 12 men take about 2 hours to finish it first time, it took a detachment of us marines 12 hours lmfao.

you drop and roll when you get a grenade thrown at you, rather than goin flat and letting the shrapnel pass you.

Your soldiers spray rounds willy nilly, and there are videos on youtube of them clearing rooms, and running away when theres a shot fired lol

American military = all the gear no idea.

Your anti guerrilla manuals that were the basis of anti insurgency campaigns were a joke, and the plain uselessness of Americans, unless they have air superiority and 1000 rounds a piece is dazzling.

SPECIAL FORCES IN THE us ARMY IS THE EQUIVELENT OF ROYAL MARINES IN bRITAIN OR 2 REP REG IN THE FOREIGN LEGION ETC.

[The Douche]

So are we gonna ban this dude yet? hahahaha

[AnarchoMassLineDemarchist]

your the child killer, who was part of an occupation that supports an iraqi puppet regime, and backs the northern alliance puppets/warlords, that practice bacha bazi and the oppresion of workers and women.

your the one who decries leninism on one hand, while supporting imperialism on the other

Fuck you

[Kuppo Shakur]

This guy should be banned.
From the Earth.

[The Douche]

your the child killer, who was part of an occupation that supports an iraqi puppet regime, and backs the northern alliance puppets/warlords, that practice bacha bazi and the oppresion of workers and women.

your the one who decries leninism on one hand, while supporting imperialism on the other

Fuck you

The difference being, I think its wrong, while you have ambitions to do it.

[khad]

your the child killer, who was part of an occupation that supports an iraqi puppet regime, and backs the northern alliance puppets/warlords, that practice bacha bazi and the oppresion of workers and women.

your the one who decries leninism on one hand, while supporting imperialism on the other

Fuck you
What do you think you proud Brit imperialists do?

[Peace on Earth]

Cmoney, you're a fucking disgrace to any member of the left for having made the decision to occupy a foreign nation without their consent and contribute to the U.S. war machine in a direct way. No leftist should be able to reconcile their political beliefs while enlisted in the U.S. Armed Forces, or any other imperialist nation for that matter. Don't give me excuses; there are always other options besides the military.

[Ocean Seal]

I just tell them this, "You got a family, at home, don't fight for your country, fight for a belief that you have, not what the government has."
Sometimes this is difficult. The military will continue on whether or not they join and chances are that they'll join anyway. Its even harder with close friends, especially people who don't have much money or believe that they don't have much of a future. They believe that the only way that they can ever change things is for them to join the military. Sometimes you just have to let go and hope for the best. I know that this isn't the "leftist" thing to do, but its different from being on a forum, it's real life. I know that we would all like to think of ourselves as the virtuous revolutionaries, but things don't always go as planned. What I think is best is to lay out a few arguments and cause them to question joining the military instead of attacking them or even attacking the military. Don't call the military "controlled by the bourgeoisie" or they'll stop listening to you. Tell them that its a large commitment, and that war is idealized, and when you begin to question yourself it may already be too late. Tell them that you believe in them, but that you just want to make sure that they're making the right choice.

[The Douche]

Cmoney, you're a fucking disgrace to any member of the left for having made the decision to occupy a foreign nation without their consent and contribute to the U.S. war machine in a direct way. No leftist should be able to reconcile their political beliefs while enlisted in the U.S. Armed Forces, or any other imperialist nation for that matter. Don't give me excuses; there are always other options besides the military.

Hey, shit-for-brains, have you read this thread?

[Peace on Earth]

Hey, shit-for-brains, have you read this thread?
Yeah I have, and regardless of how many times you say you're against it, you're still a member of an imperialist organization. Hypocritical beyond belief.

[The Douche]

Yeah I have, and regardless of how many times you say you're against it, you're still a member of an imperialist organization. Hypocritical beyond belief.

If you want to start a fund with me to raise money to pay the army back what I would owe them if I were to get a general discharge, then lets do it.

Otherwise shut the fuck up, I have big boy things to worry about, like paying bills and keeping food in my house. Whats done is done, and I can't go back in the past to change it. All I can do is tell young kids who think its cool the truth about it.

[gorillafuck]

They were pesuedo student marxists, who were fucking pathetic and had no good analysis, and were pretty close to being thirdworldists.
They were pseudo students? Did they pretend to be in college?:lol:


Yeah I have, and regardless of how many times you say you're against it, you're still a member of an imperialist organization. Hypocritical beyond belief.
You can't just say "I quit" and leave the military, ya know.

[synthesis]

The point of every job in every branch is to support the infantry

Is that really what they told you? :confused:

[The Douche]

Is that really what they told you? :confused:

Its the truth, the objective in a military operation is to take and hold ground, only the infantry can do that, so everybody else exists to make sure the infantry (or combat arms in general) can carry out their job.

[AristeraGR]

Well pershonal opinion is engouraging them to go into the military because wel I like the military and because you can do a military junta and then take over as a
Dictatorship of the proletariat

That's my idea.

[The Douche]

Well pershonal opinion is engouraging them to go into the military because wel I like the military and because you can do a military junta and then take over as a
Dictatorship of the proletariat

That's my idea.

Wow.

[synthesis]

Its the truth, the objective in a military operation is to take and hold ground, only the infantry can do that, so everybody else exists to make sure the infantry (or combat arms in general) can carry out their job.

You don't think that's an overly simplistic way of perceiving what militaries do?

[The Douche]

You don't think that's an overly simplistic way of perceiving what militaries do?

How do you mean?

Obviously there are specific objectives on both the tactical and strategic level. But overall, in a combat operation you need to secure territory.

[Summerspeaker]

One of my comrades threatened to blow up the recruiting office when a sibling talked about joining the navy. This isn't necessarily the best approach. I discussed it with her as well. Luckily, she hasn't enlisted yet.

I have respect for soldiers who become radicalized. I've worked a bit with Iraq Veterans Against the War. Some of them are still serving. Are you a member of IVAW, cmoney? If not, you might want to look into it.

[The Douche]

Yeah, a paper member.

[Amphictyonis]

AWO4tVZPybQ



eduacation stable career
join the army
become a murderer
kill for god and country
return to be a hero
to tell you the truth
i hope you dont come back
courage
it takes a big man to push a button
fight with your honor
like shotting children
and cutting their parents throats
go to the frontline
watch your friends
get cooked by napalm
and theyre murderers just like you
getting education by killing people too
bodies blown apart
you feel a sharp pain in your stomach
now youve lost both of your legs to a grenade
blood and vomit spew from your mouth
no career education
and youre sent home in a doggy bag
waste your life
while taking others lives away from them
left so empty
just a pile of shit to me
and your parents looking stupid
their son reduced to a pile of shit and dog tags
but he did what he was programmed to do
such a good soldier
i hope youre fucking proud of your son
fuck your son i hope he fucking dies

[EvilRedGuy]

^^:thumbup1:

[Yazman]

EvilRedGuy, please do not make posts that consist of an emoticon. This post you've just made constitutes spam. Don't let me see you doing it again.

This constitutes a verbal warning.

[Amphictyonis]

EvilRedGuy, please do not make posts that consist of an emoticon. This post you've just made constitutes spam. Don't let me see you doing it again.

This constitutes a verbal warning.

You can't hate on Dystopia ;) Anarcho black crust is OK by me. I mean, this pretty much says it all:

"fuck your son i hope he fucking dies"

[Fullmetal Anarchist]

Don't. Let them make their own mistakes just like I did.

[Diello]

Don't. Let them make their own mistakes just like I did.

How big a mistake would someone have to be on the verge of in order to get you to try to dissuade them from it?

[Amphictyonis]

But then again, we have this perspective- (a poem) There are two different sort of people that join. The assholes who I don't care about and the poor.


unfortunate sons



patriots don’t join
the army

poor people do

that is why
soldier’s deaths

are so
sad