The two axis of antifascism

[Delenda Carthago]

In order to fight fascism we really have to understand it deeply.Specialy in times like these,where we see the phenomenon rising up again,we really have to understand its true nature in order for us to destroy it.

So what is fascism?Its a political system based on corporative capitalist economy,defending some metaphysical ideas of Nation,Race,Order,Authority.

For me,after years of fighting against fascism either we talkin on the ideas area or as an ass whooping,I have come to a conclusion that there are two axis that fascism is really against.

And those two are nihilism and communism.

For the first,nihilism is the end of all metaphysics fascism relies on.The end of the total truth brings the death pf God,of one type of life and the acceptence of the idea that everyone should believe in the same ideas.The death of ideology is the death of fascism in general.As they say it themselves, "our Ideas are the light against the darkness of nihilism".

For the second part,communism is the point where even these postmodern nazis like BANA,autonomus nationalists etc cannot cross.They might "promote" self organising,they might be more "workers friendly",but this is their limit:the point where workers take over the means of production and private property seize to excist.They can be "workers friendly" as long as the workers wont try to question their identitys as workers.As long as the workers dont make the question to themselves "why we produce and they make the money?".Thats why they embrace the identity of the worker,like its a title of honor.Theoritical works of Otto Strasser will give you an idea of what I am talking about.

[Delenda Carthago]

PS.The DOUBLE,not the two.My bad.

[Meridian]

For the first,nihilism is the end of all metaphysics fascism relies on.The end of the total truth brings the death pf God,of one type of life and the acceptence of the idea that everyone should believe in the same ideas.The death of ideology is the death of fascism in general.As they say it themselves, "our Ideas are the light against the darkness of nihilism".

I've got some issues here.

1. Fascism is a political ideology. You could argue that it relies on some metaphysical ideas, but I would be interested in a more exact account of this rather than flinging around vague terms like "total truth".

2. Nihilism can not be an end to metaphysics, as nihilism itself is a metaphysical idea. In order to formulate any nihilistic philosophy you have to completely distort the meaning of ordinary words, like "meaning" and "purpose". It does not matter if you propose the negation of distorted words as long as you in fact do distort the meaning of words to formulate your theory.

3. The death of ideology? This would include socialism, anarchism, marxism, communism...

[Delenda Carthago]

Fascism by definition is an ideology that(apart from its political-economical substance) in philosophical terms relies on absolute truths.There could never be a critic on its basic principles:the idea of Race,of Order etc are unqusetionalbe and should apply to everyones life and belief.Nihilism on the contrary is,not a metaphysical idea but,the denying of absolute truth(the death of God).Its the end of ideology itself,the end of morality.The end of overindividualised values,which fascism needs in order to convince people. So,nihilism is the end of all these things that fascism relies on.

In nihilism you dont "have to" do anything but question everything constantly.The meaning of words are not to be changed just because,but only if you find that they dont work on your analysis,so you adjust them.



3. The death of ideology? This would include socialism, anarchism, marxism, communism... Marxism is not an ideology,nor is communism.Other than that, kewl...:thumbup1:

Ideology is the death of critical thinking.We dont need it and sure as hell we dont want it.Its a formality of a world that have pasted for good and its only downgrades the consciousness(as even Marx said,ideology is false consciousness ).Beeing an ideologist is to trying to bring the world to your measures.To denying reality if its not good enough for your ideas.To think as other people,in other times thought.
And as my singnature says...its supermarket is only good for expopration.

[LebenIstKrieg]

fascism needs to be treated with it's own medicine: complete terror.

[Delenda Carthago]

fascism needs to be treated with it's own medicine: complete terror.

sure.but sometimes its not enough...

[LebenIstKrieg]

sure.but sometimes its not enough...
Fascists are not super men. All it requires is a visit by 50 lads from the opposite camp armed with metal objects to pay a visit to the head quarters of the fascist manor and things can go from there.

[Apoi_Viitor]

fascism needs to be treated with it's own medicine: complete terror.

"And once again, the old dictum is confirmed that the worst product of fascism was 'anti-fascism'."
-- Zanthorus

[Omi]

Sure, the worst product of fascism wasn't genocide, but a movement defending community's against fascists marching in their streets. I don't advocate senseless violence and machismo like LebenIstKrieg above, but the saying you posted is of course completely insane. Anti-fascism never murdered millions of people. Go figure.

[Ravachol]

Sure, the worst product of fascism wasn't genocide, but a movement defending community's against fascists marching in their streets. I don't advocate senseless violence and machismo like LebenIstKrieg above, but the saying you posted is of course completely insane. Anti-fascism never murdered millions of people. Go figure.

I guess what Zanthorus meant was a reference to the old left-communist position that anti-fascism just focuses on one particular form of Capital rule and is thus susceptible to class-collaboration.
Broadcasting silence just quoted Zanthorus wrongly. Anyone who rejects violence out of principal reasons, regardless of material conditions or class character is (I hate to sound too ML'ish here :p) a spineless liberal.

It's a position I (obviously) don't share. While I do agree that anti-fascism without anti-capitalism (not only in a negativist sense but in a positivist sense, constructing a project against Capital) is hollow and susceptible to class collaboration, this doesn't go for all forms of anti-fascism.

Secondly, I do consider fascism to be worse than most other forms of Capitalism if not for the heightened violence then for the reduced possibility of working towards an effective (anarchist) communist project due to the erosion of class consciousness, the heightened authoritarianism and the repression intrinsic to fascism.

Anti-fascism is nothing but the necessary defense of the working-class and the (anarchist) communist project against the forces of reaction.

[9]

Anti-fascism never murdered millions of people.

Actually "anti-fascist" (i.e. Allied) imperialism did kill millions of people during the course of the war, so...

[bcbm]

Actually "anti-fascist" (i.e. Allied) imperialism did kill millions of people during the course of the war, so...

damn, beat me to it

[Ravachol]

Actually "anti-fascist" (i.e. Allied) imperialism did kill millions of people during the course of the war, so...

That is, if you regard it as anti-fascism. Given the fact that the very same governements financed and supplied Franco, Dolfuss,etc. it's a stretch to consider them 'anti-fascist'.

[bcbm]

it is anti-fascism in the sense left-coms use the term. they were happy to support fascism to break proletarian militancy and protect the capitalist class and then equally happy to use anti-fascism to do the same and take down imperialist rivals.

[9]

it is anti-fascism in the sense left-coms use the term. they were happy to support fascism to break proletarian militancy and protect the capitalist class and then equally happy to use anti-fascism to do the same and take down imperialist rivals.
It definitely isn't limited to left communists, either. There are plenty of leftists who aren't left communists who see the war as basically having been an anti-fascist war, and many - in contrast to left communists - actually defend the role of the Allies on exactly that basis.

[Delenda Carthago]

Fascists are not super men. All it requires is a visit by 50 lads from the opposite camp armed with metal objects to pay a visit to the head quarters of the fascist manor and things can go from there.
dude,please.the last thing i need you to do is tell me how to "bash the fash".

I didnt said it could be done.I said its not enough.You have to fight the reason they are beeing born in the first place.

[Delenda Carthago]

What the fuck y all talkin about?

[LebenIstKrieg]

dude,please.the last thing i need you to do is tell me how to "bash the fash".

I didnt said it could be done.I said its not enough.You have to fight the reason they are beeing born in the first place.
By all means, except that the Fash who is militant and openly racist needs to be put down like the dog he Is, these guys burn people out of their houses, throw acid on opponents faces disfiguring them for life and In the most extreme cases kill six year old children on the basis of the colour these people don't deserve mercy and no amount of whining to the police is going to solve it.

I don't advocate senseless violence and machismo like LebenIstKrieg above in what way is it Senseless? for example the BNP/NF were pushed off the streets completely by AFA and no it wasn't through legal means it was through the use of violence. http://libcom.org/library/bash-the-fash-anti-fascist-recollections-1984-1993/1-introduction

[Ravachol]

it is anti-fascism in the sense left-coms use the term. they were happy to support fascism to break proletarian militancy and protect the capitalist class and then equally happy to use anti-fascism to do the same and take down imperialist rivals.

I fully agree with this statement but it's on this basis that I doubt that term 'anti-fascism' is appropriate here. There can be no proper anti-fascism without anti-capitalism.

[bcbm]

I fully agree with this statement but it's on this basis that I doubt that term 'anti-fascism' is appropriate here. There can be no proper anti-fascism without anti-capitalism.

well if most anti-fascism isn't considered "proper," then we're left with a bit of a semantics issue. obviously fascism can't be truly opposed by capitalist factions but that doesn't really change the fact that they've done a great deal under the banner of "anti-fascism" and even today a lot of anti-fascist activity is carried out by bourgeois factions. when it is tied to anti-capitalist struggle it more often than not seems like gang warfare, not class struggle.

[Ravachol]

well if most anti-fascism isn't considered "proper," then we're left with a bit of a semantics issue. obviously fascism can't be truly opposed by capitalist factions but that doesn't really change the fact that they've done a great deal under the banner of "anti-fascism" and even today a lot of anti-fascist activity is carried out by bourgeois factions. when it is tied to anti-capitalist struggle it more often than not seems like gang warfare, not class struggle.

While I agree with the former, I strongly disagree with the latter.
Opposition to fascism serves multiple causes in the class struggle:

- Opposition to the most violent elements of the reaction, both by breaking their organisations and countering their propaganda. History has shown that fascism is a very potent force to channel unrest resulting from certain material conditions into reaction as opposed to revolution.

- Self-defense of revolutionaries, it's pretty common for communist groups to be attacked by fascists, regardless of whether they engage in anti-fascist activity or not.

- By breaking up and opposing fascist groups a lot of harm (in the form of attacks on immigrants, etc.) can be prevented.

As for the 'gang war' remark, one could argue that the class struggle itself takes the form of 'gang war' (the unions versus the pinkertons spring to mind) at times.

[Palingenisis]

Fascism has a physical agenda against the most vunerable members of the working class...Usually you dont choose your enemy, your enemy chooses you...And boneheads, etc have choosen to be enemies of the working class. That being so I dont understand the objection for meeting them blow for blow.

Both the old Anti-Fascist-Action and Antifa now in England, Scotland and Wales were and are very anti-capitalist/pro-socialist. Anti-fascism is a necessary part of the class struggle.

[bcbm]

While I agree with the former, I strongly disagree with the latter.
Opposition to fascism serves multiple causes in the class struggle:

- Opposition to the most violent elements of the reaction, both by breaking their organisations and countering their propaganda. History has shown that fascism is a very potent force to channel unrest resulting from certain material conditions into reaction as opposed to revolution.

- Self-defense of revolutionaries, it's pretty common for communist groups to be attacked by fascists, regardless of whether they engage in anti-fascist activity or not.

- By breaking up and opposing fascist groups a lot of harm (in the form of attacks on immigrants, etc.) can be prevented.

As for the 'gang war' remark, one could argue that the class struggle itself takes the form of 'gang war' (the unions versus the pinkertons spring to mind) at times.


i think there is a difference between resisting fascist thugs in the course of social struggle and "anti-fascism" as it typically manifests itself. as you say, true anti-fascism cannot exist without anti-capitalism and so wouldn't the reverse be true as well? i don't see the need to form a separate "anti-fascist" praxis from the class struggle.

the gang war remark is referencing the fact that "anti-fascism" often means one gang of subcultural youth attacking another gang of subcultural youth while people who aren't subcultural youth are left looking on wondering why they are all throwing rocks at each other in the street. in general this also seems to focus a great deal of importance on relatively impotent gangs of fascists while the ruling class carries out ruthless attacks against immigrants and minorities with little opposition.

[black magick hustla]

antifascists need to get a new hobby

[Ravachol]

the gang war remark is referencing the fact that "anti-fascism" often means one gang of subcultural youth attacking another gang of subcultural youth while people who aren't subcultural youth are left looking on wondering why they are all throwing rocks at each other in the street. in general this also seems to focus a great deal of importance on relatively impotent gangs of fascists while the ruling class carries out ruthless attacks against immigrants and minorities with little opposition.

It's true that the more prominent segments of the ruling class are often left unopposed in their agendas and that's a shame but:

- This doesn't go for all Antifascist groups, most antifascist groups focus on immigration and minority-related policies as drafted and enacted by the more prominent segments of the ruling class as well.

Also

- Subculturalism and spectaclism are a big problem within the entire radical left. One might argue the anarchist movement suffers from it to an equal degree (if not more so) than various anti-fascist groups.



antifascists need to get a new hobby

While I usually agree with you do realize that this comment can be very offensive to a lot of comrades who have risked more than a black eye and bruised ribs opposing fascists or defending comrades and their spaces and projects from their attacks.

[LebenIstKrieg]

antifascists need to get a new hobby
What do you mean by that?

[bcbm]

It's true that the more prominent segments of the ruling class are often left unopposed in their agendas and that's a shame but:

- This doesn't go for all Antifascist groups, most antifascist groups focus on immigration and minority-related policies as drafted and enacted by the more prominent segments of the ruling class as well.

more power to 'em, but i think they are a minority and, again, i still don't see why this necessitates a separate praxis?


- Subculturalism and spectaclism are a big problem within the entire radical left. One might argue the anarchist movement suffers from it to an equal degree (if not more so) than various anti-fascist groups.

sure, but thats not really here nor there.


While I usually agree with you do realize that this comment can be very offensive to a lot of comrades who have risked more than a black eye and bruised ribs opposing fascists or defending comrades and their spaces and projects from their attacks.

meh, i've risked quite a bit in my day but looking back there were probably more productive things to be doing than spending hours digging through the internet and court files for little specks of info on fascist thugs. again its one thing to oppose a real threat from them as many spaces face, quite another to dedicate hours keeping tabs on your local bunch of drunk, impotent and irrelevant "nazis"

[Volcanicity]

antifascists need to get a new hobby
The day these scum are no more is the day we will get a new hobby.

[The Grey Blur]

there is a difference between anti-fa in the states and in europe (england, scandanavia, the east especially) - in the latter it is an absolute necessity to be capable of physically resisting semi-organised nazi hooligans. in the US this simply isn't the case. in the end though you shouldn't fetishize anti-fascist action, the only real way to defeat fascism is to undermine the conditions for its production - capitalist alienation, immigration etc - and that means building socialism.

[black magick hustla]

- Subculturalism and spectaclism are a big problem within the entire radical left. One might argue the anarchist movement suffers from it to an equal degree (if not more so) than various anti-fascist groups.


yea, and that is one of the reasons why the left blows and so those anti-fascism.


[/quote]
While I usually agree with you do realize that this comment can be very offensive to a lot of comrades who have risked more than a black eye and bruised ribs opposing fascists or defending comrades and their spaces and projects from their attacks.[/QUOTE]

there is a difference between defense and organizing subcultural gangs that have as explicit goal to counter other subcultural gangs. im sorry but i almost laughed really loud once when i was talking to this anarchist bartender and he was going on about the neonazi threat in detroit. while he speaks that my friends get harassed by the ICE every year and every time the immigration pigs come around they have to hide

[Ravachol]

Well I agree pretty much with the above comments, I think The Grey Blur stated it pretty spot on. Fascism in the United States is way different from the rather organized and potent fascism in Europe (NPD/Autonome Nationalisten, SMR,etc). In mainland Europe organized and violent fascist gangs both have a pretty big street presence (even leading to 'national befreite zonen' in some east-german cities) as well as electoral success.

[Omi]

The 'national befreite zonen' are to be found more and more on the western part of Germany as well, in the Ruhrgebiet and such, due to the enormous influence of the big Dortmund Nazi scene.

And no, I don't mean allied forces during world war II when I talk about anti-fascism, I think this is quite obvious since I'm posting in the Anti-Fascist subforum of a site called RevLeft. I don't think it's particularly difficult not to be to pedantic when it comes to semantics like this. We all mean anti-fascism as it manifests itself within revolutionairy politics. At least, that's what I expect coming to this particular site for discussion.

[Montag451]

It seems there is a misconception even among the left that antifascism is just a hobby and a subcultural phenomenon.
This is very wrong and a dangerous concept.
Why is antifascism important?

1) It is a direct confrontational wing of the left. You can't protect a union from fascist attacks by organising a strike, you have to target the specific groups which attack you,confront them physically and with propaganda,and only then can the workers movement/union continue to grow.
Ofcourse this antifascist segment should then be connected with the union/workers movement, because one without the other they can accomplish little
2)Antifascism is a great recruitment tool for the left. Anarchism and communism are "boogeyman" words,but antifascism isnt. Still alot of people have become leftwing after getting involved with antifascism while before they were apolitical,centre-left or even rightwinged.
3)Antifascism is a common front of all leftist tendencies. It is a tool of cohesion and unity which the left desperately lacks in its infighting and sectarianism