Chinese worker unrest...situation tense...

[RadioRaheem84]

http://www.livestation.com/channels/3?youtube_video=http//www.youtube.com/v/-3UY6oaKPRg%26feature%3Dyoutube_gdata_player

The Chinese working class is rising. Lets hope for the best!

[KC]

Destabilizing the Chinese state like this only goes to further the interests of imperialism. We should rally behind the Chinese socialist state in crushing this resistance in the struggle against imperialism.

[bricolage]

fifth column

[RadioRaheem84]

OK, maybe I missed something....:confused:

Workers are destabilizing the Chinese State by protesting for better working conditions and this is going to play into the hands of imperialists how?

Are imperialists going to paint this as a weakness in "communist" rule?

[RadioRaheem84]

A little help comrades....

How are these workers a fifth column?
Are we talking Solidarity again?

[bricolage]

Sorry it was a stupid joke, playing on the habits of certain posters here to present working class action in 'anti-imperialist' states as counter-productive.
Obviously any such uprising is good news. Capitalist, state-capitalist, 'communist'; all states must fall.

[Crux]

They are destabilizing one of the greatest anti-imperialist forces of today the People's Republic of China, when we all know the struggle against the U.S must come first.

[RadioRaheem84]

Are these all jokes?

[Crux]

Are these all jokes?
Long live Hu Jintao!

On a serious note, these are tremendous news. The fact that the regime has taken some small steps back are also interesting.

Also, in regards to the jokes, I would say there's a seriouc edge to them especially in relation to, say, the debate on Iran. If we are going to classify Iran as a progressive anti-imperialist force, why wouldn't china be that even more-so?

[RadioRaheem84]

Long live Hu Jintao!

Ah, gotcha.

[Queercommie Girl]

They are destabilizing one of the greatest anti-imperialist forces of today the People's Republic of China, when we all know the struggle against the U.S must come first.

Actually the PRC is not Iran. The PRC is officially a worker's state, so more power to the workers actually strengthens the state, rather than destabilise it. Iran is not a worker's state officially.

[bricolage]

Also, in regards to the jokes, I would say there's a seriouc edge to them especially in relation to, say, the debate on Iran. If we are going to classify Iran as a progressive anti-imperialist force, why wouldn't china be that even more-so?
But comrade! We only support China internationally, not domestically!!!

[Crux]

Actually the PRC is not Iran. The PRC is officially a worker's state, so more power to the workers actually strengthens the state, rather than destabilise it. Iran is not a worker's state officially.
The balance of forces in the chinese state is not that of a worker's state. Leading member's of the CCP are also leading members of the private industry.

[RadioRaheem84]

The only thing I am nervous about is the workers situation taking a liberal reformist turn and the Western nations turning this into a "color" revolution.

There is already ample neo-liberalism in the China already, so I am assuming that it shouldn't really be going in that direction, but who knows?

Let's hope the workers take a strong socialist position.

[Queercommie Girl]

The balance of forces in the chinese state is not that of a worker's state. Leading member's of the CCP are also leading members of the private industry.

I'm talking in nominal terms. Despite the fact the objectively the CCP leadership has already gone to the side of capitalism, subjectively the socialist banner is still used in China.

[RadioRaheem84]

The balance of forces in the chinese state is not that of a worker's state. Leading member's of the CCP are also leading members of the private industry.

Yes, a really great Monthly Review article not too long ago showed how there was a huge correlation between the billionaires and millionaires in China and their connection to the CPC and other State Owned Enterprises.

China has the mechanisms in place to be a workers state, it just lacks democratic control. Power is unevenly distributed among high official members of the CPC.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Yes, a really great Monthly Review article not too long ago showed how there was a huge correlation between the billionaires and millionaires in China and their connection to the CPC and other State Owned Enterprises.

China has the mechanisms in place to be a workers state, it just lacks democratic control. Power is unevenly distributed among high official members of the CPC.

haha, well, as much as I am in support of Chinese workers rising up & bringing about more worker power in China, your article that you read is a bit misleading if I may say so. To be honest, there are no billionaires in the CPC, from what I understand. In fact, even mainstream media admits that there are only 79 Chinese billionaires in the world! And none of them are part of the CPC. In fact, even Iseul will tell you, the CPC didn't start allowing capitalists into the party 'til around 2002. Although there's a large support of capitalism in the party, it's still predominantly working class that's leading the CPC (for now).

http://www.asiancemagazine.com/2010/08/06/what-i-learned-from-a-chinese-billionaire

[vyborg]

Long live Hu Jintao!

On a serious note, these are tremendous news. The fact that the regime has taken some small steps back are also interesting.

Also, in regards to the jokes, I would say there's a seriouc edge to them especially in relation to, say, the debate on Iran. If we are going to classify Iran as a progressive anti-imperialist force, why wouldn't china be that even more-so?

Moreover 70-80% of iranian economy is in state hands, not even 50% of the chinese supposed communist economy is...

every communist must side with the chinese workers against the chinese state

[The Vegan Marxist]

Moreover 70-80% of iranian economy is in state hands, not even 50% of the chinese supposed communist economy is...

every communist must side with the chinese workers against the chinese state

Say what? Where the fuck are you getting your information? China's economy is still of the majority under State hands. You need to get better sources:

http://www.stats.gov.cn/english/statisticaldata/yearlydata/

This is the Chinese statistical yearbook. Though, to warn you, if you’re using anything other than Internet Explorer, you won’t be able to access this site for some weird reason. So before you click this, make sure it’s through Internet Explorer. What this shows is where the Chinese people work. As you can clearly see, the biggest single category is the township and village enterprises, which are definitely socialist enterprises.

There’s also these:

http://english.cpc.people.com.cn/66102/6290205.html

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-03/16/c_13212790.htm

This shows in great length the continued role in planning the Chinese economy.

[RadioRaheem84]

haha, well, as much as I am in support of Chinese workers rising up & bringing about more worker power in China, your article that you read is a bit misleading if I may say so. To be honest, there are no billionaires in the CPC, from what I understand. In fact, even mainstream media admits that there are only 79 Chinese billionaires in the world! And none of them are part of the CPC. In fact, even Iseul will tell you, the CPC didn't start allowing capitalists into the party 'til around 2002. Although there's a large support of capitalism in the party, it's still predominantly working class that's leading the CPC (for now).

http://www.asiancemagazine.com/2010/08/06/what-i-learned-from-a-chinese-billionaire


Many of the children of leading Party officials (known as the “princelings”) were appointed to key positions in “China’s most strategic and profitable industries: banking, transportation, power generation, natural resources, media, and weapons. Once in management positions, they get loans from government-controlled banks, acquire foreign partners, and list their companies on Hong Kong or New York stock exchanges to raise more capital. Each step of the way the princelings enrich themselves—not only as major shareholders of the companies, but also from the kickbacks they get by awarding contracts to foreign firms.” Thus, more than 90 percent of China’s richest twenty thousand people are reported to be “related to senior government or Communist Party officials.”52

Didn't mean to sully MR's good name. I added the billionaire quip. No mention of billionaire in the article though.

52. Peter Kwong, “The Chinese Face of Neoliberalism,” Counterpunch, 7/8

http://www.monthlyreview.org/100201hart-landsberg.php

[Tavarisch_Mike]

It is very intresting to hear about the chinese workers uprisings. Last year the workers at some steel mill killed theire boss and in the last couple of years there are many thousands of wild cat strikes and work-related riots, wich the media tries to censure, also in the west.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Didn't mean to sully MR's good name. I added the billionaire quip. No mention of billionaire in the article though.

52. Peter Kwong, “The Chinese Face of Neoliberalism,” Counterpunch, 7/8

http://www.monthlyreview.org/100201hart-landsberg.php

Oh, no doubt that there's a lot of rich people in the CPC. Though, rich doesn't necessarily mean they're capitalists. I'm not familiar with the comparison of value between China & the US, but for the time being (given my ignorance on this particular subject) Chinese rich doesn't necessarily mean US rich. Hell, even in the Soviet Union there were "millionaires", didn't mean they were capitalists though:

http://cominternist.blogspot.com/2010/06/soviet-millionaires.html

[RadioRaheem84]

Oh, no doubt that there's a lot of rich people in the CPC. Though, rich doesn't necessarily mean they're capitalists. I'm not familiar with the comparison of value between China & the US, but for the time being (given my ignorance on this particular subject) Chinese rich doesn't necessarily mean US rich. Hell, even in the Soviet Union there were "millionaires", didn't mean they were capitalists though:

http://cominternist.blogspot.com/2010/06/soviet-millionaires.html
Vegan, are you sure these are accurate comparisons? The Soviet "millionaires" were collective farmers. The CPC and their families are involved in private industry or state owned firms that do business with Western firms in all sorts of areas. Maybe some are co-operatives, but can it be said that all are not exploiting labor?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Vegan, are you sure these are accurate comparisons? The Soviet "millionaires" were collective farmers. The CPC and their families are involved in private industry or state owned firms that do business with Western firms in all sorts of areas. Maybe some are co-operatives, but can it be said that all are not exploiting labor?

I'm not saying that not all of them were, rather that we can't just say that those who are rich are capitalists. Just trying to make sure one knows the difference. As we know, there are capitalists in the CPC now, & they are most certainly rich. With the CPC being predominantly right-wing & supporters of "market socialism" this angers many workers. Which, as you can see, despite support by a small section of the left wing of the CPC, they've taken all they can take & are rising up. In which I support & hope to see more of this.

[RedStarOverChina]

The ball is in CPC's court now. They can allow the workers to finallyhave a humane standard of living or they will risk more massive riots.

The CPC studies Marxist theories, and they know Chinese workers cannot be stopped or trampled on like the small peasants. Repression would only lead to more social unrest.

The question is, how much would they actually concede to the workers? Quite a lot, in my opinion. The workers have been screwed over way too much for way too long, and even the ruling class knows it. So now is a good opportunity for the workers to wrestle as much benefit as they could from the ruling class.

The more trouble they stir up, the more they will get in return.

[Rafiq]

They are destabilizing one of the greatest anti-imperialist forces of today the People's Republic of China, when we all know the struggle against the U.S must come first.

Obviously that isn't the case, because you have a mentality that Iran must be destabilized before America, why is China an exception?

[Palingenisis]

Obviously that isn't the case, because you have a mentality that Iran must be destabilized before America, why is China an exception?

I would hope nobody here would be against working class struggles or even revolution in Iran. The Green movement was something else though.

[Lyev]

So do comrades think we'll see the ruling class in China gradually concede more and more to the working class, or will we see another Tienanmen Square kind of situation (i.e., repressive state backlash)? I don't exactly think political (or social, depending on your stance) revolution is on the cards yet.

[Crux]

Obviously that isn't the case, because you have a mentality that Iran must be destabilized before America, why is China an exception?
:laugh:

[The Vegan Marxist]

So do comrades think we'll see the ruling class in China gradually concede more and more to the working class, or will we see another Tienanmen Square kind of situation (i.e., repressive state backlash)? I don't exactly think political (or social, depending on your stance) revolution is on the cards yet.

We're already seeing the working class gaining power. Every protest, every strike by the workers in China against the SEZs have been successful. Leading them to greater wages - meaning less exploitation.

[Rafiq]

I would hope nobody here would be against working class struggles or even revolution in Iran. The Green movement was something else though.


Couldn't have said it better

[pranabjyoti]

We're already seeing the working class gaining power. Every protest, every strike by the workers in China against the SEZs have been successful. Leading them to greater wages - meaning less exploitation.
Perhaps they are now going to remembering their glorious past.

[maskerade]

We're already seeing the working class gaining power. Every protest, every strike by the workers in China against the SEZs have been successful. Leading them to greater wages - meaning less exploitation.

just because you are getting paid more does not mean you are not getting exploited. and how does one quantify exploitation? all this time i've been thinking that it had to do with one's relation to the means of production

[RED DAVE]

We're already seeing the working class gaining power. Every protest, every strike by the workers in China against the SEZs have been successful. Leading them to greater wages - meaning less exploitation.All you are saying is that during this expansionist period of Chinese capitalism, the workers are succeeding in extracting gains from the capitalists. Should the Chinese economy slump or should the Chinese capitalists decide on a more aggressive strategy, we will see every dirty trick that the capitalist class has to play, all this in the absence of even the minimal protections of bourgeois democracy.

You are confusing working class victories under capitalism with workers power under a workers state. Given your politics, this is not surprising.

RED DAVE

[The Vegan Marxist]

All you are saying is that during this expansionist period of Chinese capitalism, the workers are succeeding in extracting gains from the capitalists. Should the Chinese economy slump or should the Chinese capitalists decide on a more aggressive strategy, we will see every dirty trick that the capitalist class has to play, all this in the absence of even the minimal protections of bourgeois democracy.

You are confusing working class victories under capitalism with workers power under a workers state. Given your politics, this is not surprising.

RED DAVE

I see it as the working class gaining power in their organizing by them continuing on winning. To show that the working class is strong in China & is ready. I would say this is a form of power they're showing to us all.

[RED DAVE]

I see it as the working class gaining power in their organizing by them continuing on winning. To show that the working class is strong in China & is ready. I would say this is a form of power they're showing to us all.What you are describing is the exact same process by which the working class in any capitalist country fights.

You are confusing workers power in a workers state with the fight for workers power in a capitalist state. The workers in China stand in the same relation to the means of production as those in the USA or any capitalist country. They are fighting for a greater share of the surplus value that is being extracted from them by force by the capitalist class.

In a workers state, this surplus value belongs to the workers.

RED DAVE

[Saorsa]

For once, I completely agree with Red Dave. Your arguments don't make any sense TVM.

[chegitz guevara]

just because you are getting paid more does not mean you are not getting exploited. and how does one quantify exploitation? all this time i've been thinking that it had to do with one's relation to the means of production

Your rate of exploitation is equal to the amount of surplus value that is extracted from your labor. If you're getting paid more, it means that less of your labor is unpaid, and therefore, you are being exploited less.

Under certain conditions its possible for a worker to be paid more and exploited more, if the pay doesn't equal the increase in productivity of the worker. Relative to what the worker was paid before, s/he is making more, but doing more unpaid labor. However, the worker would be exploited even more if pay didn't increase at all.

[Soviet dude]

1. This is old news.

2. The government supported the Honda strikers. Premier Wen Jiabao himself urged Honda to improve treatment of workers there (it is in a special economic zone).

3. The CPC has every reason to be skeptical of so-called "independent" unions, given the history of Poland.

Not really much to see here in this thread.

[RadioRaheem84]

That was the only thing that I saw as a detriment to this news.

I would hate for western influence to come in and create another Solidarity.