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Palmares
1st August 2003, 01:06
I put this in OI, but I put it there by accident, and my request to a mod to move it here wasn't heard. So I have placed it here myself. Sorry for the inconvenience.

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People have always argued upon pragmatic points such as: compromise; reformism; revisionism; docility; open-mindedness; etc - as opposed to such dogmatic points as: doctrine; principle; creed/article of faith; tenacity; etc. Is either such approach even remotely logical? One must always (eventually) be biased, but this is not the catalyst for absolutism, that is in the Manichean sense. This rises the point of opposing forces, the dialectic anomaly. Henceforth, dogmatism is the thesis, and it's opposite is pragmatism the antithesis. But what is the synthesis?

In order to understand dogmatism, one must first understand its parts. Dogmatism is most commonly known as the tenacious belief in a religion or ideology. The former though comes in various forms and has different concepts, but all religions ultimately are based on faith. The most obvious is Christianity, for the Seven Virtues (as opposed to the Seven Deadly Sins) comprise of the cardinal virtues: prudence; justice; fortitude; temperance: and the theological virtues; faith; hope; and charity. All concepts of Christianity rely on faith, e.g. Mark 5:36, "Fear not, only believe", Mark 9:23, "All things are possible to him who believes", etc. This concept's importance is immediately blatant in Islam, e.g. 'The Five Articles of Faith', 'The Five Pillars of Faith'. Even the arguments (ontological, cosmological, and design theory) for God's existence (of the Judeo Christian-Islamic tradition) are based on faith, that is the premise is the definition of God, of which only one of faith has reason to believe this definition ('Unchanged changer', the 'first cause', He created all, and all is dependent on him, logically omnipotent - not absolutely omnipotent, as the Bible is quoted as contrary to this). However someone could argue that faith is not central to Buddhism, for the Buddha himself taught that one should test his teachings for truth, not simply accept it in faith. Then there is also the open-minded Mahayana Buddhism, who would appear more to doctrine than Theravada Buddhism (that is it is more sound to the concept of 'anicca' -impermanence, hence doctrine can change, despite Theravada Buddhism being more dogmatic to all other concepts). So it would appear Mahayana Buddhism is reaching some sort of synthesis, but it may be leaning too much towards pragmatism (e.g. the worship of Buddha images/statues, which the Buddha himself condemned as deity worship). It must also be noted that atheism itself is dogmatic, for in general atheists do not even try to understand what they vehemently oppose.

Next one must try to understand ideological dogmatism. It is somewhat harder to depict faith in ideology without deviating from the 'absolute doctrine', such as solidarity/patriotism/nationalism, etc (though Fascism and Nazism are exempt). These can often be created through vigorous agitation and propaganda (sometimes causing things like deifying the leader, etc). Instead of depicting faith, the 'absolutism' would seem more appropriate (though they may linked in together). A prime example of the 'absolutism' of ideological doctrine is making the system of an individual into a doctrine, an 'ism'. Of course there is the problem of a deviating system upholding an 'absolute' doctrine which infact does not represent it doctrinally (e.g. 'Stalinism' or 'Trotskyism' as opposed to 'communism'). But looking at the fundamentals of an 'absolute' doctrine, there is room for error. For example, unlike the Bible, which it's adherents treat it as absolute truth despite it being 2000 years old, communists do not follow the 'Communist Manifesto' as the absolute truth. Perhaps it is more accurate to say realistic communists think this, nevertheless, sectarian communists ('Stalinists', 'Trotskyists', 'Leninists', 'Luxembourgists', 'Maoists', etc) similarly will discover the true uncertainty of doctrine. This goes the same for 'free market' ideologies as this very concept is 'absolutistic', money is paramount, social issues, such as the people themselves, are irrelevant. Even 'environmentalism' is encompassed within this, trees in this case are paramount, ecological preservation is central, no system change, social issues are secondary. Albeit some 'environmentalist' circles do uphold a stronger social importance, but avoid stigmatised labelling (e.g. socialistic/communistic type social systems). Such a lack of understanding of different (not 'good' or 'bad') views leads to ignorance. Ideological dogmatism is no different to religious dogmatism.

On the other end of the spectrum, one must also look at pragmatism. This was originally a 19th century American doctrine that 'the meaning or value of an idea lies only in it's practical consequence'. Pragmatism is not as far reaching theoretically as dogmatism, but is perhaps treated as much worse, when infact they are dialectically tantamount. Religious pragmatism could maybe be demonstrated as such things as pantheism, Mahayana Buddhism, Quakers (Christian sect), integrated religions (combination of various religions), etc. Not all are necessarily bad, but some would appear as overwhelming, or simply absurd. But are all of them truly pragmatic? Allowing homosexual priests into the clergy could also be considered pragmatic, and allowing the clergy to be free of celibacy (not in all cases), etc. However religious pragmatism isn't nearly as bad as ideological pragmatism, except in the cases of militant extremists, who though are called fundamentalists, are actually fundamentalists of their pragmatic variant of their religion (misinterpretation of religious covenant - e.g. 'Wahhabism', or even the 'Ku Klu Klan', etc).

Finally ideological pragmatism must be looked at. This directly links to the political spectrum, socially and economically. Firstly, in regards to the 'free market' economy, capitalism, pragmatism of this system can come in the form of regulated trade (subsidies, tariffs, etc), in a sense 'unfreeing' the market, regulated education (progressive and/or regulated fees, tertiary places, etc), regulated health system, changing the socio-economic structure in a non-dialectic fashion, such as a overwhelming middle-class of petty-bourgeoisie (as opposed to increasing lower-class and an aristocratic upper-class). This may seem counter-productive to the 'right' spectrum, productive to the 'left' (but obviously minimally), and seemingly leads to the middle spectrum, yet it may all be a facade, as right or left pragmatism can disguise an (eventual) 'absolute' doctrine. Prime examples are the 'centre-left' system of Social-Democrat Germany, 'centre-left' system of Labor Britain, 'centre' system of Liberal Australia, and the 'centre-left' system of the former Democratic United States (Republican United States is blatantly right-wing, leaning on far right). Germany though can lean leftwards because one, the Social-Democrats are theoretically (gradual) socialist based, two because of the environmentalist coalition partners, and three most importantly because of the communist coalition partners. However Germany overall is accurately described as 'centre', only appearing left on big issues if party principles and fundamental supporters demand it. Britain was relatively sound previously, but their alignment with neo-conservative America has dramatically changed this, no more is needed to be said. Australia is straight forward, the name 'Liberal' was chosen because the alternative (and more accurate) name 'Conservative' didn't sound as inviting. So Australia was already conservative (not to mention the alternative party Labour has slowly turned into a mirror party), and this has been further heightened by their alignment with neo-conservative America. In the former Democrat US, the system was at best 'centre', as like Australia, both major parties are pragmatic 'centre' and 'centre-right'. Pragmatism of a 'leftist' system is usually in reference to capitalistic reforms, such as privatisation, globalisation, deregulated economy, deregulated education and health, actions of non-sustainability, etc. But just like 'rightist' reforms, they are not necessarily bad. Whether a reform is 'capitalistic' depends on degree, or whether it is even part of fundamental doctrine. Relating back to 'absolute' doctrines, it must be noted any deviating doctrine from an original is infact pragmatism, whether it be 'Stalinism'/'Trotskyism' from 'communism', or 'Nazism' (if not 'Hitlerism') from 'Fascism' and 'capitalism'. Even a 'whistle blower' is pragmatic, dogmatism is form of conformity.

Pragmatism and dogmatism are two prominent concepts dialectically opposing each other. Neither are 'bad', but one absolutely opposed to the other can be, as ignorance cannot understand relativism. As dialectics go, a synthesis is the combination of the two opposing forces, but usually taking the form of which one force has more influence. In this case, dogmatism is the more absolute concept, and hence more heavily perpetuates ignorance. Whereas pragmatism is not as absolute, and as a result has more room for error, more room for change. To analogise this last point, treat dogmatism as a 'no' answer, and pragmatism as a 'yes' answer. Suppose someone is asked a difficult question, perhaps a conscience question. "Should abortion be legal?" A 'no' answer is a reactionary and blunt answer, doctrinal, narrow-minded. A 'yes' answer is thought through (a 'no' answer isn't necessarily not), understanding, open-minded. To make this more clear, a 'no' answer absolutely blocks the question. A 'yes' answer has infinite possibilities, it can be total legalisation, or regulated (even to the degree of it being barely legal). Therefore the leaning of the synthesis will ultimately be of pragmatism. Hence, the thesis of dogmatism and the antithesis of pragmatism culminate in the synthesis of 'revisionism'. In this case, 'revisionism' is defined as regulated pragmatism, or more accurately, regulated and appropriate change, but it must be clarified these changes are not those that are contrary to the fundamental principles. For example, to analogise 'dialectical materialism', the thesis is 'capitalism', the antithesis is 'communism', and the synthesis is 'socialism'. This 'revisionism' is based on 'realism', as opposed to utopian 'idealism'. To further understand this 'revisionism', one must also understand and apply the concept of 'freedom' and (absolute) 'subjectivity' of existentialism. Jean-Paul Sartre said, "We are condemned to be free", and by this he meant we were condemned to (absolute) freedom, freedom of choice. Linked to this is that everything is subjective (impermanence - Buddhist 'anicca'). These are the only absolute concepts that are logical, that is whether one can see through the negative revelations. As a result, dogmatism seems ascetic (along 'bad faith' lines), which it infact is. While pragmatism is simply the complete opposite, but existentialism isn't directly opposite the dogmatism, only concepts within it (Kierkegaard's Christian existentialism for example).

Dogmatism (thesis) vs. Pragmatism (antithesis) = Revisionism (synthesis)

Obsolete Truth
4th August 2003, 05:04
I answered this before, but I have thought about it further.

Various people on this site (and ISF) say crap about 'anti-revisionism' and about not being dogmatic. But isn't that contradicting themselves? I think there are some real stubborn idiots on here, and not being able to understand another's view IS ignorance. I'm not the smartest guy, but I know this to be fact.

I rarely read long posts, but this is a good one. Perhaps a lack of response indicates a lack of understanding - ignorance.

Or maybe all you guys agree with this? :unsure:

Vinny Rafarino
4th August 2003, 09:06
Originally posted by Obsolete [email protected] 4 2003, 05:04 AM
I answered this before, but I have thought about it further.

Various people on this site (and ISF) say crap about 'anti-revisionism' and about not being dogmatic. But isn't that contradicting themselves? I think there are some real stubborn idiots on here, and not being able to understand another's view IS ignorance. I'm not the smartest guy, but I know this to be fact.

I rarely read long posts, but this is a good one. Perhaps a lack of response indicates a lack of understanding - ignorance.

Or maybe all you guys agree with this? :unsure:
Well friend as "dogmatic" in this case is a reference to being stubbornly assertive to unproven principles or theories I will show you how non-revisionists are non-dogmatic.

For one, marxian philosophy leaves many issues open for interpretation, as with the "dictatorship of the proletariat" issue. One interpretation is that of the vanguard principle. (any individual that states Marx was completely against the vanguard principle has not read the manifest of the Communist party) This principle has been proven to be a success with the Soviet Union being taken from a fuedalistic barbaric nation into a world superpower within 20 years. As no fundamental Marxian laws have been revised, yet a choice of two theoretical principles has been taken, it is only logical to conclude that;

1) Revisionism has not taken place.

2) Dogmatism has not been embraced as the theory put forth by Marx has been successful in application.

This is simple logic. I certainly hope you no longer see non-revisionism as "crap" as to continue with that ideal would be against logic and therefore pure fantasy.

Obsolete Truth
5th August 2003, 23:36
Okay dude.

Anyway, I didn't say that Marx said anything about dogmatism, and yes I know certain things are open to interpretation. But, I am simply saying alot of people, okay, maybe several people on here are dogmatic about their interpretation of 'communism'.

And I think this is foolish.
That is logical to me.

2ndinternational
13th August 2003, 07:09
I think obsolete truth makes a good point. I think that comrade raf has put forth a false contradiction. I would set up the contradiction as being between pragmatism (right opportunism, reformism) and left adventurism. Left adventurism being the opposite of pragmatism and being best represented by blanquism. Both of these are in fact dogmatic as they apply rules of thumb without careful study of the practical situation. Pragmatism is dogmatism not its opposite. Left adventurism is dogmatic as well. Dialectics is the opposite of dogmatism.

Vinny Rafarino
13th August 2003, 22:19
Originally posted by Obsolete [email protected] 5 2003, 11:36 PM
Okay dude.

Anyway, I didn't say that Marx said anything about dogmatism, and yes I know certain things are open to interpretation. But, I am simply saying alot of people, okay, maybe several people on here are dogmatic about their interpretation of 'communism'.

And I think this is foolish.
That is logical to me.
Good grief.

That's not what you said. This is what you said;


Various people on this site (and ISF) say crap about 'anti-revisionism' and about not being dogmatic. But isn't that contradicting themselves?

Perhaps we found the "stubborn idiot".

Thanks for not understaning my post at all "dude". Perhaps you should read it several more times. Eventually the "light" may go on.


2ndinternational,

Do you even know what you are talking about? Your post was absolute babble that had no relation to anything I said. So much for "setting up" that "contradiction" you found eh?

sc4r
13th August 2003, 23:14
Originally posted by COMRADE RAF+Aug 13 2003, 10:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (COMRADE RAF @ Aug 13 2003, 10:19 PM)
Obsolete [email protected] 5 2003, 11:36 PM
Okay dude.

Anyway, I didn&#39;t say that Marx said anything about dogmatism, and yes I know certain things are open to interpretation. But, I am simply saying alot of people, okay, maybe several people on here are dogmatic about their interpretation of &#39;communism&#39;.

And I think this is foolish.
That is logical to me.
Good grief.

That&#39;s not what you said. This is what you said;


Various people on this site (and ISF) say crap about &#39;anti-revisionism&#39; and about not being dogmatic. But isn&#39;t that contradicting themselves?

Perhaps we found the "stubborn idiot".

Thanks for not understaning my post at all "dude". Perhaps you should read it several more times. Eventually the "light" may go on.


2ndinternational,

Do you even know what you are talking about? Your post was absolute babble that had no relation to anything I said. So much for "setting up" that "contradiction" you found eh? [/b]
Its bloody simple. To be dogmatic is to demand perfect conformance to a system of beliefs and practises without regard to whether they will actually work given actual circumstances.

All religions are dogmatic.

Moronic Commies and do-gooders usually are too.

Why? Because they dont gibe a tikners cuss about improvement, what they want is to whinge about not having perfection.

RAF said it another way, He;s right.

2ndinternational
13th August 2003, 23:22
What don&#39;t you understand about it? Pragmatism is not dialectically opposed to dogmatism, it is dogmatism. You said "Well friend as "dogmatic" in this case is a reference to being stubbornly assertive to unproven principles or theories". I would clarify your defintion by saying that dogmatism is a belief in rules of thumb disconnected from the particular situation. This is what pragmatism/reformism is. But the opposite extreme is just as dogmatic. This will give you a better understanding of what I mean:


It often happens, however, that thinking lags behind reality; this is because man&#39;s cognition is limited by numerous social conditions. We are opposed to die-hards in the revolutionary ranks whose think-

page 307

ing fails to advance with changing objective circumstances and has manifested itself historically as Right opportunism. These people fail to see that the stuggle of opposites has already pushed the objective process forward while their knowledge has stopped at the old stage. This is characteristic of the thinking of all die-hards. Their thinking is divorced from social practice, and they cannot march ahead to guide the chariot of society; they simply trail behind, grumbling that it goes too fast and trying to drag it back or turn it in the opposite direction.

We are also opposed to "Left" phrase-mongering. The thinking of "Leftists" outstrips a given stage of development of the objective process; some regard their fantasies as truth, while others strain to realize in the present an ideal which can only be realized in the future. They alienate themselves from the current practice of the majority of the people and from the realities of the day, and show themselves adventurist in their actions.

ON PRACTICE: http://marx2mao.org/Mao/OP37.html

ON CONTRADICTION: http://marx2mao.org/Mao/OC37.html

COMBAT LIBERALISM: http://marx2mao.org/Mao/CL37.html




The question of suppressing counter-revolutionaries is one of a struggle between ourselves and the enemy, a contradiction between ourselves and the enemy. Among the people, there are some who see this question in a somewhat different light. Two kinds of persons hold views different from ours. Those with a Rightist way of thinking make no distinction between ourselves and the enemy and take the enemy for our own people. They regard as friends the very persons whom the broad masses regard as enemies. Those with a "Left" way of thinking magnify contradictions between ourselves and the enemy to such an extent that they take certain contradictions among the people for contradictions with the enemy and




page 50



regard as counter-revolutionaries persons who are not really counter-revolutionaries. Both these views are wrong. Neither can lead to the correct handling of the question of suppressing counter-revolutionaries or to a correct assessment of this work.

http://marx2mao.org/Mao/QCM66.html#s4




page 531

NOTES

[7] Blanquism -- a trend within the French socialist movement led by Louis Auguste Blanqui (1805-1881), an outstanding utopian communist. "Blanquism expects that mankind will be emancipated from wage slavery, not by the proletarian class struggle, but through a conspiracy hatched by a small minority of intellectuals" (see present edition, Vol. 10, p. 392). The trend failed to reckon with the concrete situation, which must be taken into account if an insurrection is to succeed, and neglected to establish ties with the masses. [p.22]

http://marx2mao.phpwebhosting.com/Lenin/MI17.html

Vinny Rafarino
13th August 2003, 23:33
Thanks for "clarifying" a definition taken from the dictionary.

I already know what you meant. It simply had no realation whatsoever to what I originally posted.

Thanks for your "help" though. I really needed it.

My original post was a direct refute of the statement that anti-reformism not being dogmatic is contradictory.
That is all and nothing else. Perhaps you should read it again. You may learn something.

Thanks also for all the links to Mao&#39;s writings. I read them all 20 years ago. I think you are reading way to far into this in an attempt to create an argument. Let me guess, you just "got into" Marxis?

2ndinternational
14th August 2003, 01:44
Thanks for "clarifying" a definition taken from the dictionary.

I already know what you meant. It simply had no realation whatsoever to what I originally posted.

Thanks for your "help" though. I really needed it.

My original post was a direct refute of the statement that anti-reformism not being dogmatic is contradictory.
That is all and nothing else. Perhaps you should read it again. You may learn something.

Thanks also for all the links to Mao&#39;s writings. I read them all 20 years ago. I think you are reading way to far into this in an attempt to create an argument. Let me guess, you just "got into" Marxis?

1) Alot of marxist terminology has meaning that you will not find in a dictionary. For instance the use of the term dictatorship by marx and other marxists does not mean


Main Entry: dic·ta·tor·ship
Pronunciation: dik-&#39;tA-t&r-"ship, &#39;dik-"
Function: noun
Date: 1542
1 : the office of dictator
2 : autocratic rule, control, or leadership
3 a : a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a dictator or a small clique b : a government organization or group in which absolute power is so concentrated c : a despotic state

2) Are you saying that the question of whether your original contradiction was valid is irrelevant to your argument? It would seem to me to be the basis of your argument and you had better defend its validity if it has any.

3) Your original post was trying to prove that being anti-reformism is not dogmatic? There are times at which anti-reformism can be dogmatic, like Blanquism for example. That is a concrete example, something your writing lacks.

4) You may define an argument anyway you want and have it come out on paper, but for it to have any meaning it must have concrete application or come from concrete reality. This is basic marxist materialism, something you apparently don&#39;t believe in when you state that "everything is subjective".

5) Your understanding of dialectics itself is dogmatic. Dialectics is about qualitative change not purely quantitative. When you claim that "the leaning of the synthesis will ultimately be of pragmatism. Hence, the thesis of dogmatism and the antithesis of pragmatism culminate in the synthesis of revisionism" you&#39;re claiming that the more quantitatively powerful force wins out. Not to mention that the rule of thumb you&#39;re using is the thesis-antithesis-synthesis model which neither Hegel nor Marx ever suggested. The thesis-antithesis-synthesis is shortcut thinking. Not only this but you have created a circular argument by defining pragmatism as revisionism in you first paragraph. So your "dialectic" is really saying Revisionism is the thesis, Dogmatism the anti-thesis and Revisionism the synthesis. So basically you&#39;re saying nothing. Maybe that is why it is so confusing to understand.

6) As to your comment about Mao, there is a big difference between reading Mao and understanding it and in your case we could say the same thing about Marx. 20 years is a long time but since you know it all, it would be a waste of time to go back and read it.


As no fundamental Marxian laws have been revised, yet a choice of two theoretical principles has been taken, it is only logical to conclude that;

1) Revisionism has not taken place.

2) Dogmatism has not been embraced as the theory put forth by Marx has been successful in application.

Here is another example of a circular argument. "As no fundamental Marxian laws have been revised... Revisionism has not taken place."


This principle has been proven to be a success with the Soviet Union being taken from a fuedalistic barbaric nation into a world superpower within 20 years.

If success for a communist is defined by whether a country is a world superpower or not then what is wrong with the US?


Last thing, I am new to marxism. So what? Having incorrect ideas for twenty years is nothing to brag about.

Palmares
14th August 2003, 05:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 11:44 AM
5) Your understanding of dialectics itself is dogmatic. Dialectics is about qualitative change not purely quantitative. When you claim that "the leaning of the synthesis will ultimately be of pragmatism. Hence, the thesis of dogmatism and the antithesis of pragmatism culminate in the synthesis of revisionism" you&#39;re claiming that the more quantitatively powerful force wins out. Not to mention that the rule of thumb you&#39;re using is the thesis-antithesis-synthesis model which neither Hegel nor Marx ever suggested. The thesis-antithesis-synthesis is shortcut thinking. Not only this but you have created a circular argument by defining pragmatism as revisionism in you first paragraph. So your "dialectic" is really saying Revisionism is the thesis, Dogmatism the anti-thesis and Revisionism the synthesis. So basically you&#39;re saying nothing. Maybe that is why it is so confusing to understand.
I used the general definition (that being pragmatism) of &#39;revisionism&#39; in the first paragraph. This is how is it usually depicted (at least by dogmatic people).

BUT...

In my dialectical synthesis i said:


"In this case, &#39;revisionism&#39; is defined as regulated pragmatism, or more accurately, regulated and appropriate change..."

Hence your point against me is baseless and completely faux.

In regards to dialectics, I used dialectical materialism as an analogy, does it truly matter if I was &#39;short-cutting&#39; as you call it? That is your interpretation.

:wacko:

Vinny Rafarino
14th August 2003, 06:41
1) Alot of marxist terminology has meaning that you will not find in a dictionary. For instance the use of the term dictatorship by marx and other marxists does not mean

QUOTE
Main Entry: dic·ta·tor·ship
Pronunciation: dik-&#39;tA-t&r-"ship, &#39;dik-"
Function: noun
Date: 1542
1 : the office of dictator
2 : autocratic rule, control, or leadership
3 a : a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a dictator or a small clique b : a government organization or group in which absolute power is so concentrated c : a despotic state
1) Alot of marxist terminology has meaning that you will not find in a dictionary. For instance the use of the term dictatorship by marx and other marxists does not mean

QUOTE
Main Entry: dic·ta·tor·ship
Pronunciation: dik-&#39;tA-t&r-"ship, &#39;dik-"
Function: noun
Date: 1542
1 : the office of dictator
2 : autocratic rule, control, or leadership
3 a : a form of government in which absolute power is concentrated in a dictator or a small clique b : a government organization or group in which absolute power is so concentrated c : a despotic state



If you don&#39;t think that Marx&#39;s definition of "dictatorship" is in this definition here then you are beyond help.
I enjoy how you are attempting to give a new definition to the word "dogmatic" just to suit your own needs.
Perhaps you should just write your own dictionary.


2) Are you saying that the question of whether your original contradiction was valid is irrelevant to your argument? It would seem to me to be the basis of your argument and you had better defend its validity if it has any.

I never made a contradiction.


3) Your original post was trying to prove that being anti-reformism is not dogmatic? There are times at which anti-reformism can be dogmatic, like Blanquism for example. That is a concrete example, something your writing lacks.

No my post proved that you can be anti-reformist without being dogmatic. I never stated that there does not exist non-reviosionists that are dogmatic.


4) You may define an argument anyway you want and have it come out on paper, but for it to have any meaning it must have concrete application or come from concrete reality. This is basic marxist materialism, something you apparently don&#39;t believe in when you state that "everything is subjective".


Are you even talking to me here? I fail to see the relevance of this statement as I have never stated in this topic "everything is subjective" My analysis was based on absolute fact from the manifest of the communist party. Ever heard of it?



) Your understanding of dialectics itself is dogmatic. Dialectics is about qualitative change not purely quantitative. When you claim that "the leaning of the synthesis will ultimately be of pragmatism. Hence, the thesis of dogmatism and the antithesis of pragmatism culminate in the synthesis of revisionism" you&#39;re claiming that the more quantitatively powerful force wins out. Not to mention that the rule of thumb you&#39;re using is the thesis-antithesis-synthesis model which neither Hegel nor Marx ever suggested. The thesis-antithesis-synthesis is shortcut thinking. Not only this but you have created a circular argument by defining pragmatism as revisionism in you first paragraph. So your "dialectic" is really saying Revisionism is the thesis, Dogmatism the anti-thesis and Revisionism the synthesis. So basically you&#39;re saying nothing. Maybe that is why it is so confusing to understand.

You are obviously not talking to me here. Perhaps you should clarify this in your posts. I have not desire to read babblings aimed at another individual.



6) As to your comment about Mao, there is a big difference between reading Mao and understanding it and in your case we could say the same thing about Marx. 20 years is a long time but since you know it all, it would be a waste of time to go back and read it.


I never said I have not read Mao since. I merely said I read all of his works 20 years ago. Trust me kid, I understand Mao&#39;s works. I&#39;m not to sure you do however.



Here is another example of a circular argument. "As no fundamental Marxian laws have been revised... Revisionism has not taken place."

That is not my quote. I again enjoyed your little hack job. Provemy whole quotewrong son. I triple dog dare ya.

Do you even know what a "circular" argument is?


If success for a communist is defined by whether a country is a world superpower or not then what is wrong with the US?


Good grief, do some research. AGAIN, I would like you comment on my entire statement, not simply a "chosen portion" that suits you. Can we say Fox News boys and girls?

My original statement was this;


This principle has been proven to be a success with the Soviet Union being taken from a fuedalistic barbaric nation into a world superpower within 20 years

There is a huge difference. You&#39;re a hack.


Last thing, I am new to marxism. So what? Having incorrect ideas for twenty years is nothing to brag about.


The original question was rhetorical. I already knw you were new to marxism. Please prove how my analysis was incorrect. You can&#39;t as it&#39;s flawless.

C&#39;mon son, do daddy proud.

Palmares
14th August 2003, 23:26
[qoute] Your understanding of dialectics itself is dogmatic. Dialectics is about qualitative change not purely quantitative. When you claim that "the leaning of the synthesis will ultimately be of pragmatism. Hence, the thesis of dogmatism and the antithesis of pragmatism culminate in the synthesis of revisionism" you&#39;re claiming that the more quantitatively powerful force wins out. [/quote]

I didn&#39;t answer this properly before. I said this because Karl Marx himself said that you cannot simply sit on the fence, everyone is bias and eventually must, and will choose a side. This is where I get the &#39;ultimate leaning&#39; as such.

The leaning is qualitative aswell, despite what you think. For pragmatism is more liberal, not simply more popular or more prominent or even greater in number.

If I am dogmatic (and of course to some degree everyone is), SO ARE YOU. :wacko:

2ndinternational
15th August 2003, 00:33
Contradiction

Contradiction means literally ‘saying “No”’, but more generally refers to propositions which assert apparently incompatible or opposite things — “there is 1 and there is not 1”. (See Antimony). Contradiction is the centre of Hegel&#39;s critique of Formal Logic and the most popular concept for introducing dialectics, which is concerned with the internal contradictions within ideas as the “driving force” leading to change and development.

Formal Logic holds that the Law of (Non-)Contradiction — “if a given proposition is true then its denial cannot be true” — is an absolute truth, mandatory for all logical thinking and theory.

Hegel criticises this law, and points out that the ancient Greeks (Zeno) had already proved that, for instance, the simple concept of motion requires that an object is both &#39;here and not-here&#39; at one and the same time, something modern mathematics and physics would now agree with&#33;

Engels makes the “Unity (Interpenetration) of Opposites” a basic “Law of Dialectics”.

See Hegel on the unity of Positive and Negative and on the Law of Contradiction, and “There is absolutely nothing whatever in which we cannot ... point to contradictions” and see Law of Excluded Middle.

Lenin wrote “The splitting of a single whole and the cognition of its contradictory parts is the essence ... of dialectics”, and here Lenin draws attention to the fact that contradiction is central not just to "logic" (as normally understood) but cognition, and that the dialectical concept of contradiction is not the contradiction between two things external to one another, but the contradiction which is at the essence of a thing.

Mao&#39;s article On Contradiction, is a highly readable popular explanation of the application of the concept of contradiction in the analysis of complex social and historical phenomena. See C L R James on Identity, Difference and Contradiction and Essential Opposition.

http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/o.htm

Your statement that you never made a contradiction displays your ignorance of dialectics and the meaning of marxist terms. When ever you set up a discussion dialectically you are, nearly by definition, talking about contradiction. When you say that pragmatism and dogmatism are dialectically opposed to one another you&#39;re are stating that they share a contradictory relationship. That is what I mean by a contradiction. Now your are claiming that you "never made a contradiction". As for your statement about having read and understood Mao, I don&#39;t see how this is possible if you&#39;re confusing basic terms like "contradiction".



To further understand this &#39;revisionism&#39;, one must also understand and apply the concept of &#39;freedom&#39; and (absolute) &#39;subjectivity&#39; of existentialism. Jean-Paul Sartre said, "We are condemned to be free", and by this he meant we were condemned to (absolute) freedom, freedom of choice. Linked to this is that everything is subjective (impermanence - Buddhist &#39;anicca&#39;). These are the only absolute concepts that are logical, that is whether one can see through the negative revelations.

You didn&#39;t say "everything is subjective"?



The original question was rhetorical. I already knw you were new to marxism. Please prove how my analysis was incorrect. You can&#39;t as it&#39;s flawless.

at least you&#39;re not a dogmatist (sarcasm)

Palmares
15th August 2003, 03:40
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 10:33 AM

To further understand this &#39;revisionism&#39;, one must also understand and apply the concept of &#39;freedom&#39; and (absolute) &#39;subjectivity&#39; of existentialism. Jean-Paul Sartre said, "We are condemned to be free", and by this he meant we were condemned to (absolute) freedom, freedom of choice. Linked to this is that everything is subjective (impermanence - Buddhist &#39;anicca&#39;). These are the only absolute concepts that are logical, that is whether one can see through the negative revelations.

You didn&#39;t say "everything is subjective"?
How did you conclude this? Are you actually talking to me? :blink: