Burka / Burqa arguments

[MrCharizma]

I'm constantly battling all sorts of people these days. It's so frustrating trying to juggle my final exams as well as reading on politics and stuff.
But anyway, I simply want to know what your thoughts are on the Burka/Burqa and why should/shouldn't people wear them.

I usually only debate with non-Arabs because I know I can't change their views or thoughts about it so I don't bother. But still, I prefer to not look like a fool and lose :D

Thanks,

[svenne]

If i remember correctly, one (the?) possible outcome is that the womens wearing them wouldn't be allowed to exit the home at all after that, which is pretty much even worse. Or whatever at the last.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Well one of the arguments is that the burka is oppressive towards women, but the flaw in the argument for banning the burka based on this is that you can't liberate someone by forcefully taking away their right to wear something on their head if they want to. Not by the generally accepted notions of human-rights anyway. Forcing someone not to wear a burka equates to forcing someone to wear a burka.

Personally, I couldn't really give a fuck what people wear on their heads.

[Urko]

One time I saw a woman on the news say (she was wearing a burka): I should be allowed to wear a burka and French government shouldn't care who's forcing me to wear it. Or something like that.
Religion is just so sexist. I'm always for 'you should wear whatever you want', but women are forced to wear them by their religion.

[Tjis]

The burqua is a rare thing in the countries that make a problem of it, even among muslims. The issue is simply being used by people and parties as a scapegoat and a distraction.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

One time I saw a woman on the news say (she was wearing a burka): I should be allowed to wear a burka and French government shouldn't care who's forcing me to wear it. Or something like that.
Religion is just so sexist. I'm always for 'you should wear whatever you want', but women are forced to wear them by their religion.
Plenty of them don't, though. It is partly choice, so realistically we can't force someone not to wear one if they want to. There are lots of girls who were raised Muslim, stopped wearing their burka and said 'fuck you' to Islam.

It is sexist, but the way to go about fighting that is not the state enforcing a ban on those head scarves.

[MrCharizma]

Laird, you have a very interesting way of seeing this topic, and I completely agree!
Also, do many people know how it was created as well as why?

[Urko]

Plenty of them don't, though. It is partly choice, so realistically we can't force someone not to wear one if they want to. There are lots of girls who were raised Muslim, stopped wearing their burka and said 'fuck you' to Islam.
I know, half of my family is Muslim and no one is wearing a burka... But I believe that the ones who wear a burka are forced to do it by their husbands. If they want to wear it its fine but it can be risk while driving. Also how do they feel about showing their face for document pictures?

[#FF0000]

I know, half of my family is Muslim and no one is wearing a burka... But I believe that the ones who wear a burka are forced to do it by their husbands. If they want to wear it its fine but it can be risk while driving. Also how do they feel about showing their face for document pictures?

Regardless, telling women that they can't wear a thing or they will go to jail is not the answer.

[Sasha]

banning is not an answer, ignoring the problems with it is neither.

people should be able to wear what the fuck they like, on the other hand i wouldnt accept as an teacher not being able to see the faces from my students nor would i accept my kids getting teached by someone who's face they couldnt see, but its not the buisness of the goverment to make rules about it.

but yeah, the amount of attention the whole debate gets is silly, only very few women wear an niqab in the westernworld and women wearing an actual burqa is almost completly unheard of.

[Urko]

Regardless, telling women that they can't wear a thing or they will go to jail is not the answer.
I agree
how bout telling men that they can't force their wife and daughters to wear a thing or they will go to jail.

[#FF0000]

I agree
how bout telling men that they can't force their wife and daughters to wear a thing or they will go to jail.

They do that in France. They banned it anyway, though, for some reason.

[∞]

In a personal level, I do not like the Burqa. But it seems like an abortion-esque style argument has flipped to me. In countless arguments I've told lifers that "if you don't like abortion don't do it, its not up to you, if you don't like gay marriage, don't be gay."

I cannot hold a double standard.
A law that goes into a woman's personal life is stupid by it's nature.
I hate burqas but I hate laws that forbid them.

[Amphictyonis]

They do that in France. They banned it anyway, though, for some reason.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_de_Beauvoir

[brigadista]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

[DaComm]

The answer to Burqas? Atheism. And lots of it.

[Amphictyonis]

The communists in Afghanistan banned women from wearing them.

[fa2991]

Would you let people walk around in ski masks and trench coats all day that made them impossible to ID...?

[Manic Impressive]

Tackle the problem at it's root ban religion.

[9]

I usually only debate with non-Arabs because I know I can't change their views or thoughts about it so I don't bother.

This is a really bizarre thing to say. Arabs are an ethnic group; not all Arabs are Muslims and vice versa. Do you think peoples' views are determined by their ethnicity?

Would you let people walk around in ski masks and trench coats all day that made them impossible to ID...?

It's always good to imagine things from the perspective of the state...


Tackle the problem at it's root ban religion.
If you think religion is the root, maybe you're standing on the ceiling.

Anyway, I'm not about to defend the burqa, but it's pretty obvious that in Western countries where Muslims are a minority and a popular scapegoat, this issue is basically being used to whip up racism, and personally, its not a chorus I will ever be joining. Granted the circumstances are obviously entirely different in countries where Muslims are a majority.

[Manic Impressive]

If you think religion is the root, maybe you're standing on the ceiling.

You don't think organized religion is a mode of control over the proletariat?

Personally I don't care if it's a burka, a cross, a kippah, a turban or a lucky rabbits foot. Silly superstitions should be eliminated preferably through education.

[9]

You don't think organized religion is a mode of control over the proletariat?

Of course, and I don't have one ounce of sympathy for organized religion, I assure you. There's no doubt that, overwhelmingly and in its dominant forms, it serves to maintain and legitimize the system of capitalist exploitation. But my point was that I don't see it as the "root" of the problem; it's part of the superstructure.

[Manic Impressive]

ah ok I understand your objection now, I meant it was at the root of the problem of whether to ban the burka or not.

The real motivation behind my original post was to get to 25 posts so that I could post links to back up my sources not to add anything meaningful to the debate so please forgive me for my selfish interruption :lol:

[MrCharizma]

This is a really bizarre thing to say. Arabs are an ethnic group; not all Arabs are Muslims and vice versa. Do you think peoples' views are determined by their ethnicity?

Good point. I probably should have just said Muslims.

And also, is there any sort of solution to all this beef?

[NGNM85]

I generally think the Burqa should be discarded because it is symptomatic of the oppression of women, and it is inspired by religion, which is something else we should get rid of. That said, I generally oppose attempts to outlaw or prevent women from wearing them, within reason. For example, one woman refused to remove it to have her drivers' license photo taken, that's completely absurd, however, if she wants to wear it everywhere else, that's her malfunction.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Good point. I probably should have just said Muslims.

And also, is there any sort of solution to all this beef?
The solution is a revolution, uniting all working people, no matter what they wear on their heads. There are no other forces capable of liberating society from religion, as religion is tied up with capitalism and helps it to preserve the means of production. Only when this period of history is destroyed can humanity become liberated from the clutches of religion.

At the end of the day, the burka is just a head garment. Our state banning it is not something we can agree on for any reason. For them to do that is not within the interests of the working class, but in the interest of capitalism and its need to divide society. If we were to address the burka as something contrary to our views on women's struggle, we would be playing into the hands of the ruling class. The burka is just one example of many examples of oppression in our world, to focus entirely on that is ridiculous.

[Devrim]

This is a really bizarre thing to say. Arabs are an ethnic group; not all Arabs are Muslims and vice versa. Do you think peoples' views are determined by their ethnicity?


I think that actually it is more of a linguistic group, which doesn't invalidate your point.


Anyway, I'm not about to defend the burqa, but it's pretty obvious that in Western countries where Muslims are a minority and a popular scapegoat, this issue is basically being used to whip up racism, and personally, its not a chorus I will ever be joining. Granted the circumstances are obviously entirely different in countries where Muslims are a majority.

And what would your opinion be about it in that case, for example here in Turkey, where we have had in the past similar laws to those in France, and the population is overwhelmingly Muslim, 99.9% according to official figures?

Devrim

[Tavarisch_Mike]

No where in the western world is this a big problem, cases where this becomes a question tends to happen in very few cases wich media and racist groups likes to bring up like if it was some major conflict happening in evry community with muslims. Frome there partys/politicians tries to gain support by suggesting such stupid and chategorizing laws.

[Hiero]

There are a few Muslim woman in the west who actually choose to wear the burqa or niqab. I was told by a communist of a fellow Communist of Syrian origins whose daughter against ther family values choose to wear the burqa.

I don't know how wide spread it is.

[Palingenisis]

but yeah, the amount of attention the whole debate gets is silly, only very few women wear an niqab in the westernworld and women wearing an actual burqa is almost completly unheard of.

If you look at photographs of Irish women from the 50s and 60s and even into the 70s you will see a lot or even most are wearing head scarves. Out of the 5 Islamic girls I have known 2 only covered up their hair when going to the mosque, the others did cover their hair outside the house but wore normal clothes otherwise. Personally I think people being against them doing that is immature and divisive HOWEVER I have seen women wearing the Burqa both in Birmingham, London and even here in Dublin (one I saw discussing something in a group with a leading member of the SWP!) and it does comes across a different than someone wearing a head scrave and covering up their arms. In the west it does come across as a political badge. Im not a radical anti-Thieist and I dont have a problemn with Islam as such....But political Islam is something other than just Islam.

[Palingenisis]

The communists in Afghanistan banned women from wearing them.

Thats a different content to Imperialist France though.

I know one Islamic girl who finds the burqa annoying and especially when its worn in the west...But she is a very liberal moslem.

[Black Sheep]

The meaning of the burga,if i m not mistaken, is that because a woman is her husbands propertah, she must not be even seen by other males, thus she has to keep herself covered up, in order not to 'disgrace herself and her husband'.
The possible fact that women "want" to wear burgas is completely irrelevant in trying to assess the usefulness or morality of the issue.
It is anti-woman, specifically islamically anti-woman which is 100 times worse.

Of course you cannot force an oppressed part of society to abolish the things that oppress them, as you cannot force the proletariat to rise up.
On the other hand, the nature of this oppression and discrimination is such, that the oppressed (being oppressed n all in such a destructive manner) can neither effectively battle or conceive their oppression (i.e. in sharia law countries), and thus - without having thought of this matter through, just typing and thinking right now - maybe this matter could fall in the same category as fascism.
Meaning that extra-militance could be required to battle islamic oppression.

And in advance fuck off 1000 times if you call me an "islamophobe".Different situation call for different measures.

[NGNM85]

The meaning of the burga,if i m not mistaken, is that because a woman is her husbands propertah, she must not be even seen by other males, thus she has to keep herself covered up, in order not to 'disgrace herself and her husband'.

The idea stems from the particular way that Muslims view temptation, and religious observation. By comparison, Christianity emphasizes sublimating and overcoming temptation through Jesus Christ. Islam takes a more preemptive approach, rather than try to overcome temptation, they try to eliminate temptation. This is the logic behind the Burqa.

[gorillafuck]

And what would your opinion be about it in that case, for example here in Turkey, where we have had in the past similar laws to those in France, and the population is overwhelmingly Muslim, 99.9% according to official figures?

Devrim
France is using the burqa as a method of scapegoating Muslims and hyping up propaganda about "Islamisation". I would think that that wouldn't be something that the Turkish government would do, I mean why would Turkey scapegoat Muslims? Unless the burqa is associated with militant Islamists in Turkey (is it? I have no idea).

[Sasha]

while an overwhelming mayority of turkish people are muslims the turkish state is very strictly secular

[Die Rote Fahne]

If the women's religious beliefs require her to wear a burqa, then she should be allowed both in private and public.

However, she should not expect to be accommodated outside of that. If she wants her license, she has to remove it and get a picture taken, wearing a hijab is fine in my opinion of photo-ID. If she wishes to go somehwhere which requires her photo-ID be used, then she must present her ID, she must show her face again to the person she is presenting it to so it can be confirmed as her.

If they refuse, even if they have their ID with a burqa free picture, then they have to turn around and not be serviced.

That's the way shit goes. I'm tolerable of your religious beliefs, but it might not be the person on the ID under there. That's the whole point.

Am I wrong here?

Note: I am against women being forced to wear them by the state, fundamentalist husbands, or out of fear, etc etc. Only if that women happens to be uber-religious. In which case she's a tool, like anyone else who is uber-religious.

If I choose to wear a Nixon mask in public, or in private, I should be allowed. But if I need to present my ID I should have to remove it. Unless I'm Nixon.

[9]

Originally Posted by Devrim
And what would your opinion be about it in that case, for example here in Turkey, where we have had in the past similar laws to those in France, and the population is overwhelmingly Muslim, 99.9% according to official figures?Not to sound like I'm using a cop-out here, but I'm not sure there would be much point in supporting or opposing it, particularly if its the sort of thing that's pushed by one ruling class party and opposed by another (which I suspect to be the case with Turkey). I don't like the function of the burqa, but I don't think a state-imposed ban does anything to address any of the underlying issues, and I don't see any value in calling for workers to line up behind the state.

[Devrim]

Not to sound like I'm using a cop-out here, but I'm not sure there would be much point in supporting or opposing it, particularly if its the sort of thing that's pushed by one ruling class party and opposed by another (which I suspect to be the case with Turkey). I don't like the function of the burqa, but I don't think a state-imposed ban does anything to address any of the underlying issues, and I don't see any value in calling for workers to line up behind the state.

No, I don't think that it is a cop out. It is a difficult question to put to you when I presume you are not really aware of the context. It is pretty much what we say. For us, obviously that you shouldn't support the state in telling people what they can and can not wear, but it is not a class issue, and tends to often come up as a major 'issue' in the media when there is 'large scale' class struggle going on, and plays the role of a diversion.

Most leftist groups feel that they have to take a side though with the majority being against any relaxation in the bans, and the Turkish section of the English SWP being pro-relaxation, and general pro this Islamic governments 'democratic' reforms.

Devrim

[Devrim]

France is using the burqa as a method of scapegoating Muslims and hyping up propaganda about "Islamisation". I would think that that wouldn't be something that the Turkish government would do, I mean why would Turkey scapegoat Muslims? Unless the burqa is associated with militant Islamists in Turkey (is it? I have no idea).


while an overwhelming mayority of turkish people are muslims the turkish state is very strictly secular

Pyscho is right though their are big changes going on at the moment.


Turkey is a secular state founded by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk) in 1923. Atatürk saw headscarves as backward-looking and an obstacle to his campaign to secularize and modernize the new Turkish Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Republic). Kemalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism) ideology continues to emphasize secularism, despite the majority of Turks being Muslims. Until 1960's female students or public servants wearing headscarves were not seen in Turkey.
On February 7, 2008, the Turkish Parliament passed an amendment to the constitution, allowing women to wear the headscarf in Turkish universities, arguing that many women would not seek an education if they could not wear the hijab.[103] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_ban#cite_note-102)[104] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_ban#cite_note-103)[105] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_ban#cite_note-104)[106] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_ban#cite_note-105) The decision was met with powerful opposition and protests from secularists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Turkey). On June 5, 2008, the Constitutional Court of Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Court_of_Turkey) reinstated the ban on constitutional grounds of the secularity of the state. Headscarves had become a focal point of the conflict between the ruling Justice and Development Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_%28Turkey%29) (AKP) and the secularist establishment, which includes the courts, universities, and army. The ruling was widely seen as a victory for Turks who claim this maintains Turkey's separation of state and religion.


Other Muslim countries have similar bans:


Ghiyath Barakat, Syria's minister of higher education, announced that Syria would ban women from wearing full face veils (such as the niqab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niqab), but not other forms of hijab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab) that do not cover the entire face), at universities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University) stating that the veils ran counter to secular and academic principals of Syria.[96] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_ban#cite_note-95)


Tunisian authorities say they are encouraging women, instead, to "wear modest dress in line with Tunisian traditions" i.e. no headscarf. In 1981, women with headscarves were banned in schools and government buildings, those who insist on it face losing their jobs.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_ban#cite_note-tunisiahijab-1) Recently in 2006, the Authorities launched a campaign against the hijab, banning it in some public places, where police stop women on the streets and ask them to remove it, and encourage them not to wear it again. The government described the headscarf as a sectarian form of dress which came uninvited to the country.[97] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_ban#cite_note-96)


The headscarf is known as a tudung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudung). Muslim women may freely choose whether or not to wear the headscarf, except when visiting a mosque where the tudung must be worn; this requirement also includes non-Muslims.
Although headscarves are permitted in government institutions, public servants are forbidden from wearing the full-face niqab. A judgment from the then-Supreme Court of Malaysia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Court_of_Malaysia) cites that the niqab, or purdah, "has nothing to do with (a woman's) constitutional right to profess and practise her Muslim religion", because Islam does not make it obligatory to cover the face. (See Hjh Halimatussaadiah bte Hj Kamaruddin v Public Services Commission, Malaysia & Anor [1994] 3 MLJ 61.)


Devrim

[Devrim]

Out of the 5 Islamic girls I have known 2 only covered up their hair when going to the mosque, the others did cover their hair outside the house but wore normal clothes otherwise.

Wow, you know women who go to the mosque. Maybe it is a Western thing. Generally women in the Middle East don't go to the Mosque. Mohammed said "The best mosques for women are the inner parts of their houses".

Devrim

[Sasha]

could be, here its mostly marrocan girls who go to the mosque, turkish and iraqi girls stay indeed mostly home. but i dont know if thats an marrocan or an dutch-marocan thing

[Sir Comradical]

The communists in Afghanistan banned women from wearing them.

The PDPA wasn't pushing a racist agenda to alienate and marginalise a religious minority as a way of distracting the working class from real issues, after all Afghanistan is a majority muslim country. I'd say the Afghan-communists were sincere in their attempts to liberate women from backward cultural practices.

[Palingenisis]

could be, here its mostly marrocan girls who go to the mosque, turkish and iraqi girls stay indeed mostly home. but i dont know if thats an marrocan or an dutch-marocan thing

My understanding was that women prayed in a seperate room in the mosque or on a balcony overlooking the men. I find it mad that a lot women arent even allowed in one.

[Palingenisis]

Unless the burqa is associated with militant Islamists in Turkey (is it? I have no idea).

I would associate the Burqa with the extremist part of Islam.

[Devrim]

My understanding was that women prayed in a seperate room in the mosque or on a balcony overlooking the men. I find it mad that a lot women arent even allowed in one.

If you go into a big mosque, there is usually a tiny room for women. For an example a mosque that holds 10,000 might have space for 20 women. In small mosques there usually isn't. In general women don't go.

Devrim

[Palingenisis]

Most leftist groups feel that they have to take a side though with the majority being against any relaxation in the bans, and the Turkish section of the English SWP being pro-relaxation, and general pro this Islamic governments 'democratic' reforms.



It might not be strictly a class issue but does seem to be a social issue that effects working class people. It would seem to me if all these goverments have gone to the trouble of banning it that it must carry a lot of symbolic socio-political significance.

I dont understand the sympathy that the SWP has for Islamic integralism....After all "Third Positionists" in the west are also "anti-imperialist" but that doesnt stop them from being reactionary. Maybe its down to them hating their own country so much that they embrace any enemy that comes along of it. Maybe its down to racism ("middle easterners cant handle secularism yet" attitudes).

[123321]

To those who are opposed to a Burqa ban;

what about a ban on the Niqab (the veil that overs the face)? That way the Muslim women can still wear the Burqa, but their faces aren't covered, ending any concerns about security and I.D. :)

Everybody wins.

[El Rojo]

what about a ban on the Niqab (the veil that overs the face)? That way the Muslim women can still wear the Burqa, but their faces aren't covered, ending any concerns about security and I.D. :)

its not a security or ID problem, the issue is over induvidual freedom for people to dress as they chose and to practise thier religion without persecution. we may not agree with religion, but indidual freedoms are important

[Crimson Commissar]

It's just generally fucking dumb to be honest. Hijabs at least make sense, they only cover the hair. Why would any sane human being want to cover THEIR ENTIRE BODY with black cloth? It's ridiculous. I don't really advocate banning it, but honestly people who wear them in public should expect to be ridiculed for it.

[PhoenixAsh]

Would you let people walk around in ski masks and trench coats all day that made them impossible to ID...?

Funny you should say that....

the burka debate in Holland centers around prohibiting women to wear face covering clothes in public.

However the eventual law that will come out of this can not single out a single group. This would be considered racial, gender and ethnic discrimination under our constitution.

A law prohibiting burka's will include all forms of face covering items including ski masks, scarfs, helmets and carnaval clothing. In excess it may even include sunglasses.

This is IMO the real reason behind pressing through such laws to use against protesters and, in extend, revolutionary movements.

The police will generally ignore the law in practice and only use it as an extended instrumentary authority tool when needed.

This will lead to arrests in demonstrations for simply wearing face covering clothes...it forces protest groups to uncover their faces and will be used as a practical tool against black blocks.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I think Burqas are kind of goofy, but there's nothing inherently wrong with them. My argument is: If a woman choses to do it, let her be. If a woman's family pressures her with threat of violence or economic retaliation, the state or other agencies should intervene on her behalf.


The communists in Afghanistan banned women from wearing them.

Yeah, and they lost power to a bunch of religious fanatics. To put it in other words, it's not a fight worth waging when you have actual class issues to deal with.


Also, to those who have seen the Battle for Algiers, the male guerillas use the burqa as a disguise to ambush the french soldiers and for the women to escape identification, so there's definitely an advantage to covering one's face in certain contexts :laugh:

[PhoenixAsh]

well...this has not any real connection to any burka or niqab prohibition but the police in the Netherlands arrested two activists during an anti-fur protest.

THe reason for the arrest was they wore face masks and placed a sticker on a lampost....

[Rafiq]

The sad thing now is that before almost no one wore it, but now that the French Govt made a big deal about it, you're going to start seeing a bunch of people wear it, Non Muslim and Muslim too. It might even become a Fashion style. Lol @, stupid French GOvt

[NGNM85]

I see no reason why a woman should be prevented from wearing it, if she truly wants to. If we start criminalizing idiocy or irrationality, we had better be prepared to build a lot more jails. However, I would have more faith in this 'choice' if being beaten wasn't so often the price of not wearing one.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Forcing women to wear the burqa is oppressive but in my opinion we have a more subtle form of womens oppression in the west. This is the pressure on women to conform to a narrow and highly sexualised conception of how a woman should look. Women are taught by the media that they should be thin, wear sexualy suggestive clothes and generally do what they can to conform to this version of beauty. This leads to anorexia, bodily mutilation in the form of plastic sugery and shattered self esteem for millions girls and women. It also reduces women to sex objects who have no sexuality of there own, their sexuality is designed only to please hetero-sexual men. If you do not meet the criteria you will not have any value in our society. How many non good looking women do you see on TV? This situation comes from our societies patriarchy but is exacerbated greatly by capitalisms need to create markets in order to make a profit. Both the burqa and our own dress code define women as sex objects, they just do it in different ways.